Podcast Summary: "Why ICE Can’t Be 'Fixed'"

Podcast: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Garrett Graff (Journalist, historian, author of the Doomsday Scenario newsletter)
Date: February 5, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode probes the seeming contradiction within the far right's stance on government tyranny, especially in light of recent events involving ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and CBP (Customs and Border Protection) violence in American cities. Charlie Sykes and Garrett Graff dive into the history, culture, and unfixable rot within these agencies, exploring why demands for "anti-tyranny" and government resistance have evaporated. They connect this to the underlying ideologies fueling current policy and ask if these agencies can be reformed—or if abolition is the only honest answer.

1. The Far Right’s "Anti-Tyranny" Flip-Flop

• The Question: Sykes opens by asking what happened to those who claimed they supported the Second Amendment to resist government tyranny—“the Don't Tread on Me crowd”—who now urge immediate compliance with federal agents, even justifying violence by authorities.

  • [03:19]

• Insight – Cognitive Dissonance:

  • Graff details the far right’s shift: “We have spent 30 years with these protests of people marching through the streets with Don't Tread on me flags who are now... saying... just bend over for the government tyranny and, you know, do not do anything to resist the tyrannical government and everything will be fine.”
    • [04:47] C (Graff)

• Sykes sums up:

  • “The flip is so dramatic and it's so in real time... The people back during the COVID era who were saying do not comply are now basically saying, comply immediately or die.”
    • [07:17] B (Sykes)

• Ideological Consistency:

  • Graff explains this is actually consistent with a white nationalist, Christian nationalist ideology: they are not against tyranny itself, but only tyranny when exercised by "the wrong people.”
    • [08:23] C (Graff)

2. Mainstreaming of Extremist Ideology

• Stephen Miller’s Role:

  • Graff identifies Stephen Miller as pivotal: “Stephen Miller is really at the center of this... This is why Stephen Miller is in politics. This is his animating desire…”
    • [10:14] C (Graff)

• From Fringe to Mainstream:

  • Sykes: “I describe [white nationalism] as a recessive gene on the right. And now they've become dominant.”
    • [10:56] B (Sykes)

• Trump’s Impact:

  • “What we have seen in Donald Trump is the absolute mainstreaming of that white nationalist ideology... from that first golden escalator speech.”
    • [11:03] C (Graff)

3. ICE, CBP, and the Decline in Right-wing Violence

• Shift in Violence:

  • Graff notes right-wing violence has markedly decreased during the Trump second term compared to the first.

    • [13:19] C (Graff)

  • The explanation: “There’s no need for our extra-legal militia now because CBP and ICE are doing the exact violence to the exact communities that we wish to do violence to, and they're doing it under the color of law, with government authority. So, like, there's sort of no need for your paramilitary militia when you have a government militia working on your behalf.”

    • [14:25] C (Graff)

4. "Us vs. Them" Mentality and the January 6th Paradox

• Binary Worldview:

  • Sykes: "This binary world they live in has nothing to do with being anti government... It's us using our power against you.”
    • [17:32] B (Sykes)

• Blue Lives Matter, with Caveats:

  • Graff: “The protesters on January 6 didn't see the lines of Capitol Police as legitimate police. The officers were instead the guardians of a corrupt regime...”
    • [17:32] C (Graff)

5. The Turner Diaries' Influence

• Background:

  • Graff explains how the dystopian, violently racist novel the Turner Diaries served as a blueprint for far-right, white supremacist movements—"a how-to guide for overthrowing the government.”
    • [19:33] C (Graff)

• Day of the Rope:

  • The novel mythologizes a "Day of the Rope," a violent purge of "race traitors," which is referenced with chilling resonance in current rhetoric, including during and after January 6.
    • [23:57] C (Graff)

• Sykes adds:

  • “It's a shitty book... But that doesn't mean that it was not influential as kind of a handbook for the far right.”
    • [21:47] B (Sykes)

6. Far Right Contradictions About Guns

• Current Contradictions:

  • Sykes details how traditionally pro-gun MAGA figures now advocate for gun restrictions at protests—“If Barack Obama... said the kinds of things the Trump administration officials were saying about guns right now, we would have a Turner Diary scenario, wouldn't we?”
    • [25:24] B (Sykes)

• Trump as Unifying Force—and Potential Source of Fracture:

  • “My hypothesis is that... the internal contradictions necessary to hold together Trumpism under Donald Trump fracture the moment Donald Trump disappears as the MAGA figurehead.”
    • [26:28] C (Graff)

7. The Deep Rot Within ICE and CBP

• Historical Patterns:

  • Graff recounts that both ICE and CBP have functioned as “a fascist secret police in waiting for an ambitious would-be authoritarian” since post-9/11 expansions.
    • [31:43] C (Graff)

• Arrest Stats:

  • “From 2005 to 2024... 4,913 CBP agents and officers have been arrested themselves... If you just took the population of CBP agents and officers who have been arrested since 2005, it would be the nation's fourth largest police department.”

    • [35:49] C (Graff)

  • “For much of the 2000 and tens... the crime rate per capita of CBP agents and officers was higher than the per capita crime rate of undocumented immigrants in the United States.”

    • [35:49] C (Graff)

• Culture of Violence:

  • “Border Patrol is not a police department in the way that we think of a police department. I describe it as sort of part occupying army, part frontier cavalry, and part police...”

    • [37:05] C (Graff)

  • “The only thing that has changed is that they are now doing this violence to white people in American cities. On camera.”

    • [40:15] C (Graff)

8. How Did It Get This Bad?

• Lack of Major Accountability:

  • “There just has never been a triggering front page moment to force reform... The wave of misconduct inside CBP has been 4,913 small stories buried inside, you know, local newspapers... never a moment until now.”
    • [41:06] C (Graff)

• Recruitment Now:

  • “The people who are signing up now are... watching these videos going, I want to be part of that.”

    • [43:17] B (Sykes)

  • Graff: “ICE recruiting...is entirely playing on sort of brutality, white nationalist tropes... Are you watching these videos... and would like to dress up like you are invading Fallujah to storm a Home Depot parking lot and rough up some guys who were trying to be day laborers? ...this is the job for you.”

    • [43:17] C (Graff)

• Financial Incentives and 2028 Election:

  • “$50,000, $60,000 bucks, notably paid out only after several years of service... imagine the incentives...come election day in 2028... you have a 25,000 or $50,000 incentive to make sure that the Democrat doesn't win.”
    • [44:46] C (Graff)

9. Are ICE and CBP Reformable? Or Should They Be Abolished?

• On Reforms:

  • Sykes: “I'm trying to imagine being a Democrat in the Senate and thinking that I'm going to cast a vote to continue to fund the status quo... if not now, then when?”
    • [52:01] B (Sykes)

• Graff’s Position:

  • “I don't see at this point how CBP and ICE are reformable... all of those reforms are tinkering around the margins of the two issues of culture and leadership. And there is nothing that Congress could do... that fundamentally addresses and changes the issues of culture and leadership.”
    • [47:18] C (Graff)

• Accountability and Civil Liability:

  • “One of the ideas... is I think we should try to make officers civilly and personally liable for the wrongful detention of U.S. citizens...”
    • [54:14] C (Graff)

10. Culture of Impunity

• Absolute Immunity:

  • Sykes: "Right now, they're being told from the White House, you have absolute immunity. You have absolute impunity. You can wear masks. You are able to get away with stuff that no normal cop would be able to get away with."
    • [56:11] B (Sykes)

• Near-Perfect Lack of Discipline:

  • Graff: "Through the 2010s, 97% of all complaints filed against the Border Patrol that warranted investigation... an average of 3 agents per year were formally reprimanded."

    • [56:35] C (Graff)

  • “Remember that DHS did not even put the Alex Preddy shooters on leave immediately...”

    • [58:01] C (Graff)

11. Memorable Quotes

• “The people back during the COVID era who were saying do not comply are now basically saying, comply immediately or die.” – Charlie Sykes [07:17]
• “ICE and CBP since 9/11 have been a fascist secret police in waiting for an ambitious would-be authoritarian.” – Garrett Graff [31:43]
• “If you just took the population of CBP agents and officers who have been arrested since 2005, it would be the nation's fourth largest police department.” – Garrett Graff [35:49]
• “The only thing that has changed is that they are now doing this violence to white people in American cities. On camera.” – Garrett Graff [40:15]
• “I don't see at this point how CBP and ICE are reformable... all of those reforms are tinkering around the margins...” – Garrett Graff [47:18]
• “There has never been a triggering front page moment to force reform.” – Garrett Graff [41:06]

12. Notable Timestamps

• 03:19 – Sykes introduces the "Don't Tread on Me" contradiction.
• 04:47 – Graff on why the right's reaction has flipped.
• 08:23 – Miller/Trump woven into the narrative of white nationalist ideology.
• 13:19 – Discussion of decrease in right-wing violence amid ICE/CBP crackdown.
• 19:33 – The Turner Diaries' influence.
• 31:43 – Graff's expert testimony on ICE/CBP rot.
• 35:49 – Arrest statistics and misconduct depths.
• 40:15 – The transition from border violence to city violence.
• 44:46 – Financial incentives for agents and threats to democracy.
• 47:18 – Graff’s damning verdict: ICE and CBP as irreformable.
• 56:35 – Culture of impunity within ICE/CBP.

13. Conclusion and Tone

The conversation is urgent, darkly humorous, and unsparing in charting the dangers of a system built for abuse—and now actively recruiting for that mission. The tone is deeply skeptical of incremental reforms and loaded with stark warnings about what unchecked power, unaccountable agencies, and extremist ideology mean for American democracy.

Links to Guest's Work: “Doomsday Scenario” newsletter (see podcast site for links to Graff's referenced articles).