Zee Cohen-Sanchez: Beating Charlie Kirk at his Own Game

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Zee Cohen-Sanchez: Beating Charlie Kirk at his Own Game
Date: August 26, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode features host Charlie Sykes in conversation with Zee Cohen-Sanchez, founder of National Ground Game, a progressive political action committee working to counter right-wing campus organizing efforts led by figures like Charlie Kirk. The discussion delves into the shifting landscape of youth political engagement, how figures like Kirk and Nick Fuentes have found traction, the alarming gaps in Democratic organizing, and the internal strife plaguing progressive activism. The episode’s central message: understanding and overcoming the right’s grassroots and media advantage is crucial if progressives want to prevail, especially among young voters.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Youth Vote and Right-Wing Organizing

• Democratic Assumptions Challenged:
  Sykes highlights how Democrats long assumed young voters, especially college students, were a secure bloc—an assumption now upended.

  • “I think Democrats took youth voters for granted… this demographic fantasy… that you were going to have all of these… this emerging electorate that was going to inevitably give Democrats wins.” (02:05)

• Rise of the Right Among Gen Z:
  Zee details the complexity in the youth shift, noting both improved Republican organizing and some genuine ideological movement.

  • "I think that we've seen this shift in the youth vote… it's hard to tell… if the youth is actually moving to the right ideologically or if they are just simply out organizing us." (03:34)

• Male Loneliness and MAGA:
  Male loneliness is a key vulnerability exploited by right-wing organizers like Kirk and Nick Fuentes.

  • “There is a male loneliness epidemic… people like Charlie Kirk are… using this… to pull them in so that they feel like they're part of something.” (03:34)
  • Sykes probes: “Is it primarily men? Is it boys? Is it, the, the, this incel culture… it seems primarily male.” (05:13)
  • Zee confirms: “It is primarily male. Although it is dangerous for us to not look, I think at women as well in this space.” (05:24)

• Turning Point USA’s Massive Funding and Infrastructure:

  • Kirk’s group raised $100 million in 2024, with 500,000 individual donors, showing broad grassroots buy-in.
    • “Charlie raised about $100 million in 2024.” (06:01)
    • “He has 500,000 individual donors… that's a huge amount. If he lost those really big funders, they would still be taking over the game.” (06:10)

2. Why the Right’s Tactics Are Working

• Community Over Ideology:
  Campus events are less about politics, more about belonging and networking—an area where progressives lack alternatives.

  • “Most of them told us that they don't really think Charlie's cool… they actually don't really care that much about Trump. They more so think of this as like a vacation for their friends… there isn't an alternative on the left that they could look and say… it doesn't exist.” (09:19)

• Organizational Weaknesses on the Left:
  Progressive and Democratic groups are fragmented, decentralized, and lack the shared goals, scale, and resources of their conservative counterparts.

  • “They don't have that Turning Point infrastructure. So they're usually student led and run… there's not like a shared goal… nothing like that exists.” (10:09)

• Ground Game Disparities:
  The right is beating Democrats at basic organizing, especially voter registration. Turning Point and groups like Scott Presler’s Every Vote Action consistently outwork the left.

  • “Every time I would send in canvassers… Turning Point USA and… Presler's org… were there long before, before us and long after we were gone.” (11:31)
  • “They've registered 4.5 million voters since 2020, and we haven’t.” (12:51)

3. Media Ecosystem and Social Media Dynamics

• Conservative Media Machine:
  Right-wing influencers—Kirk, Candace Owens, Ben Shapiro—unify ground activism with a disciplined, algorithm-hacking media empire.

  • “They are marrying the ground game with the online media empire… they have all of their people on one accord all the way down to the very smallest influencers… we don't do that on the Democratic side.” (16:53)

• Progressive Media Disorganization:
  Democrats lack coordinated messaging online; content is scattered, which reduces its perceived authenticity and impact among young people.

4. The Radicalization Pipeline and Nick Fuentes

• Extremism Ascendant:
  Nick Fuentes, an openly antisemitic Holocaust-denier, is surging in online influence—which shocks even seasoned observers.

  • Sykes: “Nick Fuentes is a crypto Nazi without the crypto part… give me some sense that. That he is… rising now on the right.” (18:26)
  • Zee: “Yeah, and that's part of the issue. Nazis… like, what's scary is that… the algorithms now favor the far right and the far left. And so that's why we're seeing this…” (19:36)

• Algorithms and ‘Rage Bait’:
  The structure of social media rewards ever more outrageous and transgressive content, explaining the rise of extremists.

  • “The algorithm wants to feed this, like, rage bait… so they grow much faster, grow easier than normal people.” (21:00)

5. Progressive Movement Dysfunction

• 'Unfucked America' Example:
  Zee’s Unfucked America campus tour faced enormous progressive infighting, with accusations spiraling despite the tour’s unprecedented engagement and reach.

  • “Everything imploded because… people… basically said that we were not uplifting black voices… The whole point… was that we're speaking to that demographic… And that was not a good enough answer… they proceeded to take down the whole tour because of that.” (28:53)

• Purity Tests and Cancel Culture:
  Sykes and Zee discuss the self-defeating tendency among the left to shrink its tent through endless purity tests and internal policing.

  • “The infighting has always been bad… this new emergence of Palestine and Israel has really just… shaken up the whole party… If you say, 'I don't have a position'… then you are the enemy.” (32:55)
  • “We are finding reasons to shrink our tent. And in a time where we should be expanding our tent, this is where my personal frustration comes in… if you don't believe in 100% of what I believe, then you don't deserve to be here, well, then that's how we get Trump.” (32:55)

• Electoral Consequences:
  The unwillingness to organize around shared goals or accept broad coalitions leads to losses—sometimes catastrophic ones.

  • “Some of these folks… wouldn’t support Joe Biden… because of her [sic] position on Israel and Palestine, and they got Trump. And we've seen what's happened since then.” (33:53)
  • Zee: “If you don't believe in winning electorally is important, then we can't work on the same team… it's affecting our actual ground game.” (34:22)

6. Solutions & Looking Forward

• Cutting Through the Noise:
  Zee calls for progressives to “cut the cancer out of the party” and refocus on actually winning elections, warning that leadership is being distracted by the loudest but least electorally relevant voices.

  • “What my hope is, is that we cut the cancer out of the party and we just move on. Because to me it's like, okay, if you're not voting anyway… why are you then making these fundamental decisions that are going to lead us into… a dictatorship.” (37:20)

• Gavin Newsom as Model:
  Zee praises Newsom’s media savvy and trollish engagement as something Democrats should emulate, though notes party tendencies to lag behind cultural shifts.

  • “I love it… Gavin is actually getting it now… I hope that… they do [follow his example].” (39:12)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the core appeal of Turning Point USA:
  “They get to meet girls. Right, like, and so it's, it is very much an ideal setup and nobody else is doing this. There isn't an alternative on the left.” – Zee Cohen-Sanchez (09:20)

• On the scale of the right’s organizing:
  “I've been sounding the alarm on our voter registration program for a long time… in 30 states that we can determine what party affiliation is for voter registration, we were down in every single one.” – Zee (11:31)

• On the algorithm’s dark incentives:
  “The algorithm wants to feed this like, like rage bait is really the only thing you could call it. And so they, they grow much faster.” – Zee (21:00)

• On progressive infighting:
  “We are finding reasons to shrink our tent. And in a time where we should be expanding our tent, this is where my personal frustration comes in… that's how we get Trump.” – Zee (32:55)

• On what needs to change:
  “I hope… that we cut the cancer out of the party and we just move on. Because… why are you then making these fundamental decisions that are going to lead us into… a dictatorship.” – Zee (37:20)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Zee’s Welcome - [01:12]
• Gen Z’s Rightward Shift, Turning Point’s Funding - [03:34] – [06:44]
• Turning Point’s Social Pull vs. Progressive Orgs - [07:53] – [10:46]
• Organizing/Registration Failures on the Left - [11:31] – [13:41]
• Media/Influencer Ecosystem Split - [16:16] – [18:26]
• Nick Fuentes and Extremism Pipeline - [18:26] – [24:17]
• Progressive Infighting & ‘Unfucked America’ Tour Implosion - [27:11] – [31:56]
• Israel/Palestine Controversy and Party Fracture - [32:55] – [34:22]
• Future of Democratic Organizing & Newsom’s Model - [37:20] – [40:05]

---

Closing

Charlie Sykes ends by reiterating the importance of recognizing these challenges, warning against complacency, and restating his show’s purpose:
“It is important to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones.” (40:37)

For more about National Ground Game or the Unfuck America Tour:

• nationalgroundgame.com
• unfuckamericatour.com

---

Episode Tone:
Candid, urgent, at times exasperated but practical. Both host and guest blend inside-baseball analysis with a call for grounded action, resisting both doomerism and denial.

Transcript

[A]

Why choose a Sleep number Smart Bed.

[B]

Can I make my site softer?

[C]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[A]

Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep Number setting It's the sleep number biggest sale of the year all beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free premium delivery with any smart bed and adjustable base. Ends Labor Day. All Sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a SleepNumber store or SleepNumber.com today.

[B]

Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win book the perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. Your future self will thank you later.

[C]

Need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll? OnDeck's small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $100,000 exactly when your business needs it. When with flexible draws, transparent pricing, and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply [e-mail] and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business.

[A]

Loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank.

[C]

Ondeck does not land in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Welcome back to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sachs. We're doing something a little bit different. One of the things that I try to avoid is I try to avoid getting too much into the weeds of political consultant world, et cetera. But this is an exception. So I wanted to welcome Z Cohen Sanchez, who is the founder of the political action committee National Ground Game, which is going head to head. Now you'll see why I'm doing this. Head to head with guys like Charlie Kirk on America's campuses. So first of all, welcome to the podcast, Z.

[B]

Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[C]

Okay, now, fair warning for everybody. We're going to talk about what's going on with Gen Z, what's going on with Charlie Kirk, what's going on with people like Nick Fuentes on campus. And then I want to talk about something that was known as unfucked America and how it got effed up as an indication of part of the problems of progressives who cannot seem to stop fighting with one another despite everything that's going on. I mentioned this because every once in a while you have to know that I get comments on My podcast people saying, hey, hey, like your podcast, but we wish you would swear less. Well, you know, it is called Unfucked America, so we're gonna have to do that. Okay, so let's just start off with your organization. Ground Game is specifically targeted at this mysterious voting bloc, which didn't seem to be mysterious. I think Democrats took youth voters for granted, didn't they? Just, they simply assumed that if you were a young college student, that you were going to grow up and be a Democrat. I mean, this was part of this Democratic, the. I'm sorry, this demographic fantasy that they had that you were going to have all of these, you know, this emerging electorate that was going to inevitably give Democrats wins. So give me your sense of what's happening with Gen Z. What is the appeal of Trumpism to this generation, which I have to admit is a little bit opaque to me sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I think that it's. So there's multiple, multiple reasons. I think that we've seen this shift in the youth vote. Obviously, Charlie Kirk, Scott Pressler, a lot of these, like large organizers, big organizations that they have, have just been hammering down on voter registration and conversion campaigns. So it's hard to tell right now, at least with the studies that have come out, if they are moving, if. If the youth is actually moving to the right ideologically or if they are just simply out organizing us. And I think it could be a combination of both. Right. But what we've learned that at least what we know, especially from the Nick Fuente Fluentis crowd and the Groipers and these folks, right, is that we know that there is a male loneliness epidemic. We know that. We've known that for some time. The issue has been, is that people like Charlie Kirk are grab. They're grabbing onto that. And then they're using this, you know, Trump MAGA ideology to pull them in so that they feel like they're part of something. And that's where the danger arises, especially on college campuses when we have these kids that leave home. They're in a new place for the first time. They already feel isolated for a number of reasons. And now they have their friends and they have their, you know, all of the people in their lives that are gravitating towards these turning Point USA chapters. And that's where we see that blur happen, that where we do see massive shifts to the right like we saw in the last election, where, you know, we saw the youth vote shift 9 points right in one election cycle.

[C]

Is it primarily men? Is it boys? It is. Is it, the, the, this incel culture. I'm sorry I threw out incel culture, but I mean it seems primarily male.

[B]

It is primarily male. Although it is dangerous for us to not look, I think at women as well in this space. So. Because we, we are losing the youth vote altogether. Right. So. But I do think it is driven by, by males at this point at least. But we don't know what's going to happen. I mean, you know, turning point is they're expanding every single day and they're well funded.

[C]

I mean that's, let's put this in some context. I mean, Turning Point usa, this is the Charlie Kirk organization. I mean they have millions of dollars. Do you have some sense of what their funding is?

[B]

Yeah. So Charlie raised about $100 million in 2024. Yeah.

[C]

From who's giving Charlie Kirk $100 million.

[B]

So this is what I actually found to be very interesting because originally I thought that all of these folks were just large dollar donors. Right. Which would. But no, actually Charlie has 500,000 individual donors, which, that is a, that's a huge amount. And so it'd be interesting to see what the average donation looks like. But what we do know is that it's not just all individually billionaire funded. I mean he does have a very strong base. I think if he lost those really big funders, they would still be taking over the game.

[C]

Okay. So I mean I actually know some, you know, back in the day when I actually met Charlie Kirk once I was on a panel with him and saw his operations at cpac. And I think at one point I described to him to an associate as the kind of person that a 70 year old right wing millionaire thinks would be able to appeal to young people. In fact he has been. So I want to just dive down on this question. So you have a male loneliness problem guy like Charlie Kirk whose appeal is not self evident. And let's make it very, very clear, the guy is, you know, college dropout, not the shortest, sharpest, you know, stick in the door. What does he say to young men why they should align themselves with Trumpism and maga? Does he say that it's okay to be masculine? That it's okay to be men? I mean, you know, where does the trad wife stuff came in? I mean stuff that you know, was, was not even on the far reaches of the fever swamp, that, that men should encourage women to be submissive? I mean where, where is this coming from and how does it work?

[B]

So this is what's very interesting is that I, I Feel as if this narrative around like, I don't know if maybe your viewers have like heard that recently Charlie told a 14 year old girl that the only reason to go to college is to get an Mrs. Degree. Right. To essentially go get married. And what's interest, Charlie didn't used to have this strong of a rhetoric because I think that overall he still wants women to come to his organization. Right. And when you start sort of using that type of language of like, okay, well your only point to go to college, just find a husband and forget the career or whatever, that is going to isolate some women from his movement. But I think that what they're finding is that because they're giving these people, all of them, not, not just men, but all people sort of a place, it is less about what he's saying and more about just giving them that community and that, that space to grow. So like, for example, when we were talking to a lot of the kids at the Student Action Summit, we said, you know, well, what draws you towards Trump and what draws you towards Charlie Kirk? And most of them told us that they don't really think Charlie's cool and they actually don't really care that much about Trump. They more so think of this as like a vacation for their friends. You know, they get to go out of town, they get to go to TAMP on this vacation, they get to network so their parents encourage it.

[C]

They get to meet girls.

[B]

Yeah, they get to meet girls. Right, like, and so it's, it is very much an ideal setup and nobody else is doing this. There isn't an alternative on the left that they could look and say, oh well, I could just join this other organization that's doing it. It doesn't exist. So I think that it's less about, you know, the Trumpism and really about like any of the policy and more so just about that belonging.

[C]

I heard mentioned this on another podcast where you said that, that there really is going to your point that there's, there's no alternative. So there are no progressive. I mean my view of colleges was of course there's, there's, you know, a progressive club for everybody, but there's not really an infrastructure. And, and Democrats in terms of like organizing doesn't exist or is like weak.

[B]

No, not, not in the way that, yeah, not in the way Turning Point does it. I mean there are Democratic clubs, I'm sure on many campuses of them, but I'm sure many of them. But the problem is, is that they don't have that Turning Point infrastructure. So they're usually student led and run. There's not usually like a structure to them. There's not like a shared goal, things like that. So I don't think that people gravitate as much towards it because they don't have this like, oh, let's go on vacation or let's go to this networking event together. Nothing like that as far as we know even exists.

[C]

So this is actually working. I guess this is the thing that took a lot of people by surprise is that you'd hear of Charlie Kirk being out there and kind of, he's kind of a goofy sort of guy not realizing exactly how deep this infrastructure was. And as you point out, they have gone from just sort of having rallies and parties and bake sales and things like that to actually organizing and voter registration. And this has now become a problem for Democrats. And I guess that's kind of the alarming thing that I wanted to talk to you about is that, is that the right is doing right now a better job of organizing in very tangible ways among young voters and on college campuses than Democrats in the left.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It's not even comparable. And the thing is, is that. Yeah, not even comparable. I mean, and the thing is, I've been sounding the alarm on our voter registration program for a long time, for about two years. I've talked to the DNC about it, I've brought it to different party chapters. And I was worried because initially what got me sort of thinking like that this was a big problem was that, you know, we do voter registration drives and GOTV all over the country, like my own personal firm. And every time I would send in canvassers to go to these areas, no matter where it was, I mean, deep red, solid blue swing states, doesn't matter. They Turning Point usa and a lot of the time Scott Presley's organization, I believe it's called Every Vote Action, were there long before, before us and long after we were gone. And that to me was really concerning because I was, you know, especially as we were going into a Trump election. But nobody seemed to have any idea about like, well, or not even just any idea, but they didn't seem to think that one, that this was a problem or two, that we should be doing anything about it. So then when the New York Times article dropped this week where they said that in the 30 states. Right, I'm sure that you saw this in the 30 states that we can determine what party affiliation is for voter registration, we were down in every single one. So I didn't Even think it was that bad, honestly, even on the ground. But that shows you that, I mean, they've registered 4.5 million voters since 2020, and we have it. So, you know.

[C]

Okay, so why is this happening? I mean, we know that the Democrats have had a gerontology problem at the very top with the. With the candidates. We've endlessly debated. This. Is this a reflection of that, that. That basically the entire infrastructure of the. Was not paying attention to younger voters, that younger voters were not represented. Just give me your sense of how. How could the Democrats decide to ignore what they would have said a few years ago is one of their key and key constituencies?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I just think. I think it's less even about that and more so about just this assumption that people are so afraid of Trump, that no matter what, we will win elections. And that has proven wrong time and time again. So much so that now what I worry about is that I don't think I love what Gavin Newsom's doing 100%. I think that it's a great spectacle. I love it, But I just worry that we're not going to win the redistricting war. Right. If we actually truly go to war, I just don't think that we have the numbers to win that. And actually, the New York Times just did an article about this as well that confirmed that theory that we will likely not win that war. So then the question is, well, how do we beat it without a redistricting war? And the only way we beat it is through voter registration. But the issue is, is that for some reason, again, we're stuck in this mindset of, oh, well, things just have to get bad enough. Right. If Trump does these crazy things like he's doing in D.C. and all of these executive order, well, things will just get so crazy that people will fight back. And that's just not what we've seen to be the case. So to me, it's almost like it's maddening because we're doing the same thing over and over again without getting any better results.

[C]

Okay, so, so, so why is that? Because I. I mean, I understand. I understand that. And I guess if you would have asked me about, you know, before, you know, before 2024, I would have said, well, look, everything I know about Gen Z would be that, you know, they. They care about climate change. They. They will reject the kind of sexism, the kind of racism that Donald Trump is. That kind of crazy. But you're telling me that's not happening. Why?

[B]

Yeah, it's not happening. And what I think my theory is that, is that what we do know about campaigning is that door to door engagement, face to face engagement still, even in 2025 with AI and all of the things that we have, technology wise is still the best way to convert a voter. And so when we are, we're putting a lot of our money into advertising, we're putting a lot of our money into virtual non tangible things. That's great for the like three consultants that get super rich doing this, but it's not great for, for political organizing. So I think it's less about that Gen Z is necessarily sexist, racist, like all of the isms that we say that they are and more about that they are just getting reached out to first. And so because they're getting reached out to, they're changing.

[C]

All right, well let's talk about also the, the media diet because obviously we're dealing with, we're dealing with, with FOL getting all of their news from NBC and cbs. They're not watching necessarily. They're not reading the New York Times or the, you know, the Washington Post. So you know, how are, how is this playing out in the. I don't want to make this a conversation about TikTok, but is there a different, are they seeing the world in a different way where what we see is scary and crazy that they see as kind of exciting and entertaining?

[B]

Yes, I think I 100 I'm glad you brought this up because this is the problem. It is not just a ground game problem. I wish it was. I wish it was just simply a ground game problem. But the issue is, is that we are 15 years behind as a party in saying what Charlie Kirk has done and what these people like Candace Owens, Ben Shapiro have done, where they are marrying the ground game with the online media empire that they have. So, and it is so powerful that one, they have like taken over these algorithms, right, with like TikTok and Instagram and all of these algorithms where they have all of their people on one accord all the way down to the very smallest influencers and they are all on the same page with their messaging all of the time. And we don't do that on the Democratic side. So because we don't have that infrastructure and we don't have that communication or that media empire, it is all disjointed and everywhere. So on any given day you might have 100 to 300 influencers all talking about different stories or different talking points. And so they, the kids don't fall into this like red pill pipeline. That makes sense for them, where all the messaging is all clear and concise and what they think to be as true. And so that's something we're trying to fix as well, at the same time as the ground game is how do we get the influencers, the viral content, and everybody sort of on one accord so that when we do go to college campuses like Charlie does, that they are already getting the other Charlie.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I say the other Charlie because every once in a while on social media, people confuse me with Charlie Kirk because I guess the name thing, but it's like, no, please do not do that. Okay, so as alarming as Charlie Kirk is, I think you know the reason why we're having this podcast conversation today. When I met you at the conference on liberalism in Washington, D.C. you told me something that really shocked me. But I've asked other people about it, and they've confirmed that you were right about this. That the next big thing coming in terms of influencers for young people is. And I can't even believe that to take this seriously, is Nick Fuentes, who I think people probably recognize the name, but Nick Fuentes is a crypto Nazi without the crypto part. I mean, he is a Holocaust denier. He's an anti semi. I mean, he is as vile as you could possibly get. And so give me some sense that. That he is. He's rising now on the right. I mean, is there this vortex where it's like you. You keep needing to move to more and more outrageous positions in order to. To, you know, make the algorithm work for you? I mean, so is Nick Fuentes really a thing?

[B]

Yeah, and that's part of the issue is Nazis.

[C]

Nazis, yeah.

[B]

Like, and. And what's scary is that I'm sure that you probably know of Myron Gaines too, right? He does the Uncensored America tour.

[C]

No, tell me about him.

[B]

Yeah, he's. Well, he's a. He's an interesting guy. So he basically, I call him, like, the grandfather of the Red Pill podcast. He does a podcast called Fresh and Fit, where essentially it's all the things you think, right? Women need to shut up and stay in the kitchen. All relationships should be open, except only on one side. The men can go out and do whatever they want. The women have to take it. Of course women shouldn't vote. All Jews are evil. The whole. The whole thing. The reason I think Myron has not sort of like, for example, Myron's allowed to go into Charlie Kirk's events where Nick is not Allowed to, I think, is because he sort of peters this mainstream line where the way that he says it is less aggressive than somebody like Nick would say it. Right. So. But he is definitely a neo Nazi. I mean, for sure.

[C]

Okay, so what, what is the possible appeal of these people to young people? Is this like the, is the ultimate transgressive position to take? Is, is, is this, is this what it means to be a subversive in 2025 that you're actually going to hang out with Holocaust denier?

[B]

Yeah, no, I think, honestly, I think that unfortunately the algorithms now favor the far right and the far left. And so that's why we're seeing this, which is really sad because it's, you know, I mean, there are so many brilliant people that are normal, that stay in the middle, but the algorithm wants to feed this like, like rage bait is really the only thing you could call it. And so they, they grow much faster. They grow easier than normal people.

[C]

Okay, but even, even so, I, I guess, and maybe I'm showing, you know, this is a generational gap here. Z, we're talking Nazis here.

[B]

I know. Yeah.

[C]

No, no, and I understand, I understand this. And this is important to point out to people that I know that these words have been used over and over again. There's been a lot of crying wolf. And I've seen this happen with one phrase after another. And you may disagree with me, but I mean, there was for years when every single Republican, every conservative was accused of being a racist. You know, Mitt Romney was a racist, John McCain was a racist, the Bushes were a racist. Everybody's a racist. So when the real things came along, people kind of rolled their eyes, they shrug their shoulders and say, yeah, you know, they become numb. And so, you know, the Nazi, you know, like, you know, he's just as bad as Hitler. Well, now you have a Nick Fuentes who is an actual neo Nazi, and people are listening and embracing him. And I just, and I'm thinking, young people, you know, what is their upbringing that leads them to be open to that? I mean, what is this downstream from? Is it, you know, kids, I'm sorry, to engage in some, you know, armchair sociology? Are they their, you know, male loneliness? They're maybe reacting against certain things that have happened in their lives? Are they from single parent families? I mean, what is the possible appeal to a young person in this wonderful age of the 2020s going, yeah, I want to hang out with a Holocaust denying Nazi.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I honestly, I don't get it.

[B]

I. It's Hard for me to understand too, but from my, from what I've sort of read about and you know, because I, I watch a lot of Nick's content because I'm interested to see, like, what he's saying and, and how he's bringing people in. And I think it's all of that, all of the things that you mentioned, plus also like the fact that they feel left behind and they feel like somebody like Nick is not Tone. Policing them, is not. Is giving them a safe, safe space.

[C]

To validating their identity.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's a, that's where I find that we are gonna really, really struggle. I still think that Charlie, at least right now, Charlie Kirk is definitely. And Scott Pressler are definitely the majority in terms of their organizing efforts and more dangerous, I think, in many ways, which I think people would say, like, that's crazy. Of course Nick is more dangerous, but Nick is not, not doing a ground game. Nick is not actually out there setting up college chapters. So once he starts doing that, yes, obviously he'd be more dangerous. But I think at least electorally, right now, Charlie Kirk and Scott Press were much more dangerous.

[C]

Well, and he also doesn't have $100 million behind him.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I mean, he doesn't have that kind of funding. So what, what is his. Is he just a social media phenomenon at the moment then?

[B]

Yeah, he. I mean, yeah, that's pretty much. That's why. And I mean, that's why it's like, you know, these people like Candace Owens and Ben Shap. Yes, they're problematic. I mean, there are people that we want to obviously not, you know, influence the youth, but I'm just, as an organizer, as a political operative, I'm just like, less worried about them. I just don't feel as if they're going to be registering hundreds of thousands of voters or knocking doors for the midterm election.

[C]

No, they won't. So you mentioned somebody like, you know, Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens. And you know, at one time there were gatekeepers. There were people who said, okay, you're not part of our movement. And one of the strangest, obviously, relationships was Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens is. Candace Owens drifted off into that weird anti Semitic fever swamp. She was on his payroll. And he clearly kind of wanted to scrape her off his shoes, didn't he? He wanted to get rid of her. And so, but, but there's no longer any sort of a mechanism, is there, to close the door? Because, I mean, Charlie Kirk would, Would, Would be in a position, you would think, well, I'LL ask you, is he in a position to close the door on Nick? Fuentes is okay. You know, we're crazy. We're all maga, but that's way too far. Is there anyone who has that ability?

[B]

Yeah, well, and he has with Nick, so I. I know that there. Yeah, he's trying. I mean, you know, now everybody's asking, oh, why won't you debate Nick and all? And we'll see, I guess, like, how the pressure sort of builds on him. But I think what will be very interesting to see is that what happens at Amfest this year, because apparently, what is AmFest? It's like the big Republican super bowl event. We're gonna be there as the Unfuck America tour. We have our own space that we're renting out across the street, and we're going to be doing debates and all that, but Nick is supposed to be crashing. And I think it's going to be interesting to see some of that Republican infighting, which obviously isn't the worst thing for us as Democrats, because, you know, I mean, there is having some pushback internally in their party is good. The problem, again becomes if that actually translates into ground game. That's where I think that our real issue is going to be.

[C]

So. So you've gotten Charlie Kirk's attention, right? I mean, these guys know about what you're doing with. With. With. With ground game, and they've. And they've pushed back against you, correct?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, they have. Yeah. Charlie definitely knows me.

[C]

Okay, so who. Who's more mad at you? Charlie Kirk or fellow progressive? Because you, You. You mentioned the. And here it comes. The unfucked tour. By the way, who came up with that term? I mean, I like it. I'm gonna make clear I have to.

[B]

Give one of my staffers credit, actually, for this one. I. I don't know if he wants me to mention his name or not, so I'll keep it out, but one of my staffers did, and I think it was a good decision.

[C]

So, I mean, one of the things that we've seen over. And we're not. We're shifting to this other. One of the. The things that we've seen over the last five years, you know, after George Floyd during the COVID era, was that a lot of the major progressive organizations were beset by infighting, and there was a lot of implosion. There was a lot of finger pointing. There was a lot of. You're engaging in microaggressions, people who have, you know, purity agendas that Are that are out there. And you experienced that as with the. With Unfucked America. I listened to a fascinating podcast about how Unfucked America became fucked. And I apologize for the language, but I don't know how to talk about this otherwise. And so there is this other dynamic which I think is important that you have the rising right, you know, being very aggressive out there, pounding on the doors, doing all this, raising lots of money. Whereas my sense is that you have a lot of progressive organizations that are late to the game, but also so much more interested in fighting with one another and engaging in, you know, I'm the biggest victim grievance fests. So can you just give me a little background? Because you had a really successful event and you know, what's the short version of what happened?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, so the short version basically was that our first stop was at Texas A and M University, so the biggest country. It was very successful. We had about over 100 million organic views on social media. So we.

[C]

Of this live stream.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So it was actually our videos. So our live streams were really big as well. But our videos themselves that our creators posted were getting millions and millions of views. One of them, Dean Withers video, I think got like almost 50 million views, which is I want probably one of the biggest like political pieces of content out there. And and so it was really successful. We raised a bunch of money. Charlie was talking about us, all of the things and then everything imploded because of some random TikTok live with people that don't really have even big followings. Basically said that we were not uplifting black voices and that we were only uplifting white. White voices. And my response to that, which, I mean, maybe I regret, maybe I don't, was that the whole point of us like picking Dean and Parker at the time, who were two young 22 year old. 20, 22 year old college boys, was that we're speaking to that demograph. Obviously we want to have people that look like them, speak like them because that's the demographic we're going after. Now. If we end up going after young Hispanic women, we would get a young Hispanic woman, right? And they did not like that answer. That was not a good enough answer. And so they proceeded to take down the whole tour because of that. And we didn't let them. We basically said, okay, you want to leave? You want to do that? Fine, fine, you know, go, go ahead, but we're going to continue. We're going to go to. And then we actually two months later completely sold out our venue in Tampa at the Student Action Summit, we raised more money than we ever had. We had CNN coverage. You know, it really was even more successful. And I think that the reason why it was more successful that we continued is that people were like, who the hell do these people think they are? Like, what do you mean? We can't cancel you. Yes, we can. Like, you know, and I think that. That. But in itself, and it's actually happening now as we speak, I posted a video yesterday saying that leftists are not on our team. And so don't pretend like. And when I say leftists, I mean people that are telling other voters not to vote for Democrats because Republicans and Dems are the same. Right? People like Cenk Uygur, people like this. And that has blown up overnight. That people are really angry about that, you know, calling me all sorts of things. But if we're going to fight this and we got to be honest about where we are as a party, you.

[C]

Know, so you are un. Cancelable now just for people's background here when you talk about, you know, leftists, that you dropped out of graduate school to begin helping with the Bernie Sanders, you know, 26 campaign. And, and you ran part of AOC's field program, so you're not like a squishy Democrat. So when you're. I mean, this illustrates, I think, part of the problem that, that you would describe yourself as pretty solidly progressive, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'd consider myself a far leftist, honestly. Okay, okay.

[C]

So the problem is you're not lefty enough. And so you're accused of microaggressions. And there are these purity tests that again, cause people to roll their eyes. But we're also at a moment now where I guess a lot of our listeners are going to go, given the threat that we are seeing from the Trump administration. There are troops on the streets of Washington, D.C. you know, he's about to occupy Chicago. I mean, one thing after another, we have the massed ICE agents moving, you know, the president, you know, musing about lots of people like dictators and all of this sort of thing, and yet there are these factions. How much of this has to do with the controversy about Israel and Palestine? Because, I mean, you really saw kind of a breakdown, I think, of some of the traditional coalitions on college campuses. How much of a problem is that. That for Democrats? Okay, so talk to me about that.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, because I. The infighting has always been bad. Right. But I think, like, this new emergence of Palestine and Israel has really just completely shaken up the whole party, because it's almost as if you can be the furthest left person you've ever met. You could say, I don't want borders, a cab, all the things. Right. But if you say, I don't have a position on Palestine or Israel, then you are the enemy. Right. And this is part of the issue is that we are finding reasons to shrink our tent. And in a time where we should be expanding our tent, this is where my personal frustration comes in, because I'm like, listen, we can all have our own beliefs, and that's fine. You know, I mean, whether you're Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton or whatever the hell you are, we can battle that out in the primaries. And that's fine. That's what the primaries are for. But the issue becomes when you're saying, oh, well, if you don't believe in 100% of what I believe, then you don't deserve to be here, well, then that's how we get Trump.

[C]

Well, literally, it's how you got Trump. So what is. Give me some insight into this. Some of these folks that you were talking about wouldn't support Joe Biden, would not support Kamala Harris in 2024 because of her position on Israel and Palestine, and they got Trump. And we've seen what's happened since then. Any sense of remorse or, like, well, that didn't work out. Well, no, because what. Because it's like, we are the righteous one and.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're. We're righteous. We're good. And this is. This is where I find, like, the biggest. And this is why I tweeted yesterday that leftists aren't on our team. And people seem to be, like, angry and confused and frustrated by that. But the issue is. Is becoming that if you don't believe in winning electorally is important, then we can't work on the same team. Right. And. And I think that politicians, Ken Martin himself, like, I hate to say it, because, you know, I support Ken Martin, you know, all of that, but. But Ken Martin, you can tell that he has this, like, significant pressure on him right now to listen to the far left that aren't even voting in elections. So it's like, to me, it's like, if you're the chair of the Democratic Party, what should your job be? Your job should be to expand the tent, to make sure that our ground game is as strong as it's ever been so that we can win electorally. And instead, what I think is happening is that he's so terrified of this like, like, you know, leftist online that is, you know, saying if you don't believe in free Palestine, then all of a sudden, you know, you are the devil. And it's really, it's actually like now it is affecting our actual ground game because in the past, I, I think people especially, yeah. In like, they were in positions like that. They were like, okay, if you're the far left and you say that whatever, you're a Bernie supporter, go kick rocks. Right. But now that's not the case.

[C]

Well, I understand that my opinion is not going to be welcome here being, you know, a cisgendered white male and everything, but. But I will say that I was watching one of these, these navel gazing sessions where, you know, progressives were going at one another and, and it was like, you know, who was the bigger victim? And, and it felt like kind of a, almost like a, like a re. Education camp where, you know, certain people had to come forward and confess their sins and ask for absolution and for forgiveness. And, and there was the lack, not, not a lot of, you know, you know, specificity, but a lot of feelings that needed to be validated. And I thought, oh my God, you know, this is 2025. We are in the middle of what I think a lot of us regard as an existential crisis. And we have some. And, and this is, this is a phrase from the before time, these were the snowflakes. This was the call out culture. And you know what? It would be hard to put together a movement behind that that would be successful. So you're in the position, you and others. And again, you're not a squishy, you know, centrist here. You're in the position of not only fighting against the Charlie Kirks and the Nick Fuentes of the world, but the purists on the left who regard any sort of disagreement or conversation as microaggressions. You know, so I mean, this is part of the problem. You can. How do you talk your way out of that? So what's the answer? What's the answer? Because this is your job, right?

[B]

I'm still trying to figure that out every day, to be honest. Because I think that, I mean, you're right. Like we're fighting all sides. We're fighting the inside of the party, we're fighting maga, we're fighting the neo Nazis. And I just. What my hope is is that, that we cut the cancer out of the party and we just move on. Because to me it's like, okay, if you're not voting anyway. Right. Like, why are you then making these fundamental decisions that are going to lead us into, I mean, where we're already at, which is a dictatorship. And so it's frustrating to me to see the leadership at the top of the Democratic Party even entertaining this stuff. And that's where I really hope that there's a change there. And I hope that, that if it's not me, then somebody stands up and says, actually, we need to fight electorally now and we need to stop this, like, purity testing nonsense because even I get sick of it. Right. Like, and I'm a, I'm a soy lefty, you know, I'm the, you know, the land acknowledgment lefty. Right. So to me, it's, it's. If I'm getting to the point where I feel like this is too much, then imagine what a cisgender white male college student feels.

[C]

Well. Or old guys who actually vote.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or old guys in a swing state. Okay, so just in the few minutes we have, I wanted to double back. So you actually like what Gavin Newsom is doing? Because it is interesting to me. The Democrats have been trying to find their voice. They've been throwing a lot of stuff up against it. Newsom clearly was experimenting with a lot of things. Didn't he sit down with Charlie Kirk, of all people, sit down for his podcast, which I thought was a, a singularly bad idea, but now he's doing, he's like, seems to be embracing the troll Persona. Just give me your sense of, of, of that and whether that's going to change the way other Democrats respond.

[B]

I love it. I don't know if it's going to change the way other Democrats respond, but I really hope that it does because I think that one of our biggest issues with the media infrastructure that we were talking about is that Democrats seem to be 15 years behind in everything, including inserting pop culture into our, into our media. Right. Like, so we don't have any sense at all of, like, the current pop culture and what it means and how to infiltrate that into the current media infrastructure whereby Gavin is actually getting it now and he's saying, okay, I'm actually going to change the. And it's working for him. Right. I mean, his engagement is insanely.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and I just, I hope, I'm not confident because I just don't think that again, we're always so far behind the eight ball that I just worry that, like, we're not going to see that, but I really hope that that they do.

[C]

Zeke Cohen Sanchez is the founder of the political action committee National Ground Game. Where can people get in touch with you if they want to support what you're doing?

[B]

Yeah, please go to our website either nationalgroundgame.com or you can go to if you want to support the tour directly. Unfuckamericator.com you could sign up to volunteer. You could sign up to donate. We're creating college chapters all over the country and of course if you have more questions, email us at the info Email so infoational Ground Game or info at the UnfuckAmerica Tour Z thanks so.

[C]

Much for your time. I appreciate it very much and thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this, why we're going to continue to do this, because now more than ever. However, as you can tell from this conversation, it is important to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.

[A]

Why Choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed.

[B]

Can I make my site softer?

[C]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[A]

Sleep number does that up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep Number setting It's the Sleep number Biggest sale of the year. All beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free premium delivery with any smart bed and adjustable base ends Labor Day. All Sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

[C]

High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi Personal loan. A Sofi Personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one loan fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's s o-fi.com P-O-W-E-R loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible. Overcoming high interest credit card Deb requires merely one thing. A SoFi Personal Loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one Low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stunt to learn more. Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 now you can fly anywhere in the world and pay discount prices on your airline tickets. Tickets Book a flight today to London, Paris, Madrid or anywhere else you want to go and pay a lot less guaranteed. Call the international travel department right now at Low Cost Airlines, 8002-1551-4180-0215-5141. That's 800-215-5141. Acast powers the world's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[B]

Hey everyone.

[D]

I'm Robert Mayes, host of the Athletic Football show and I'm excited to welcome you to the 2025 season and everything new we've got going at Tafs. First and foremost, get ready for a whole new look. We're coming to you from the Athletic Football show studio in Chicago. Get the full experience by checking us out on our YouTube channel. Second, whether you watch on YouTube or listen to us on your podcast platform of choice, you'll hear a new voice. Dave Hellman joins Derek Classen and myself as the third host on the show, bringing a different perspective to the conversation. Finally, Dane Brugler is back with year round NFL draft coverage with Building the Beast. No matter what type of NFL fan you are, there's something for you on the Athletic Football Show. Join us Monday Through Friday on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[C]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.