← To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
Angi CEO Jeff Kip Answers Contractors' Toughest Questions
01:00:17
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- [00:02]
Chris
This is to the Point a Rhino experience voted one of the top home
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Chad Peterman
services, marketing and operations podcasts.
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Jeff Kip
Cutting through the and getting to the point.
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Chris
Hey, what's up to the Point, listeners, it's your boy Chris, along with my co host, Mr. Chad Peterman from Ron Collie High School. Ron Cully Ringer has returned. Chad, what's up, buddy? Don't you.
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Jeff Kip
Love you.
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Chad Peterman
It's. It's always great to reminisce about what it was like 20 years ago in my life. So, yeah, always, always good to be here. And yeah, excited for today for sure.
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Chris
This is gonna be a great episode. We got the CEO of this little bitty, itsy bitsy, teensy weensy company called Angie. Mr. Jeff, get in the house today. I'm excited for it. But before we get there, Jeff, there's something I got. There's some business I gotta take care of before I give you a proper introduction. Okay.
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Jeff Kip
All right.
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Chris
And. And what I used to do last year was dad jokes, because we all need a good set of dad jokes, you know, to kind of run with and, you know, and I think I. I got through almost the entire year with a set of dad jokes, you know, and that kind of played itself out. I got over it. So I switched it up this year a little bit. And I thought, you know, I'm gonna go over some different metaphors or idioms, whatever you want to call them, that I've always wondered, like, where did that come from? So the previous two that we've done this year, where one was Rising Tide Raises all Ships, it was the origination of it. And then the one that we did last was Cut to the Chase. But this one, this one. Chad, are you ready for this? You're always ready for the answer to this. And Jeff, if you know the answer, I will be so impressed. But this one is Let the cat out of the Bag. Cat out of the bag is what we're going to break down for just a minute. So I have a whole list of these things where I'm trying to figure out what's the origination of these things, because I don't know. And what made me think of it was one time somebody said, throw the baby out with the bathwater. You ever heard that before, Jeff?
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Jeff Kip
Yes.
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Chris
So I was like, where in the heck did that come from? So this is kind of the path we're going down, but this is a little education session for you, right? So you're going to leave this a little bit smarter than you came in. Okay, boys. All Right, here we go. The Let the calibag the origination. This was a medieval market scam. Dates back to the 1760s. So in medieval Europe, livestock, like pigs, were often sold at markets tied in sacks.
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Jeff Kip
Why?
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Chris
I don't know, but they were tied. They would put pigs in the bag, not to be confused with pigs in a blanket, a solid Midwestern dish. So a dishonest seller might swap a valuable piglet with a worthless cat in the bag. So if a buyer opened up the sack before completing the deal, the cat would jump out, exposing the fraud. So out comes let the cat out of the bag. Mitt. You're exp. You expose the deception. There you go. The more you know, the more you know.
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Jeff Kip
I'm smarter already.
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Chris
There you go.
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Chad Peterman
Jesus. We could shut her down right now. We've all learned something. We're all good.
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Jeff Kip
Quit over ahead.
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Chris
You know, who knew? These things are going to become such, you know, educational on a whole new level. This allows me to dig into a little history, which I love, and learn a little bit about, you know, the origination of these things. Kind of fun, you know, But I will say that people were reaching out to me about dad jokes, and can you give me suggestions? And not one person's reached out to me yet about a metaphor that I should share on the podcast. So maybe we're not on to something. I don't know. Okay, let's jump into this, because I got a bunch of questions, and this is going to be an interesting episode, and I'm really excited about it. We have the. I mentioned earlier, Jeff Kip, CEO of Angie, on the podcast. They had a great conversation. I don't remember if it was a day ago. A couple days ago. My days are all running together with. With Jeff. And I was just. And I think what I really love. We never met before was, was I said, oh, man, what do you think about us just tackling, you know, what the. What the market is saying, what the pros are say, your customers are saying, like, let's just hit it head on and let's talk about it from your perspective and see how you're handling things. And I. And listen, like, Chad will say the same thing. It's super admirable when, you know, you getting. You're getting beat up from, you know, and just getting negative comments and trying to tackle one on one. But it's admirable to me that you hit it head on. That says a lot about character, first off. So thank you for being willing to kind of step in front of the Shooting range today.
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Jeff Kip
Thank you.
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Chris
Are you sure? Are you sure? Thank you. Yeah, no, I'll let you know later. Yeah, I think we're gonna be just fine. Just from our time we spent talk on the phone, like, your responses I thought were thoughtful. They weren't bs And I really think that, that there's a real opportunity for some legit change here. And I think it sounds like you, you really want to continue to lead that charge and push forward and really listen to this feedback so that way you can continue to improve the business. And I respect that. So, so I really appreciate you coming on here and doing that. So what I did just to kind of set the stage for all of our listeners, like this is not, we're not sitting here and doing a full promo on Angie. I think that we've had conversations on here too, just about other, you know, lead sources, lead aggregates, things like that. But when you get the opportunity to get such a large, such a large company on here and the CEO, like, let's hit it head on, because I think some of this stuff can be applicable across, you know, maybe it's a process problem that you have internally and you want to blame a lead source. That never happens. But I just love the fact that I thought, you know what, let me make a post across all these social platforms. Let's let everybody. And I even said, I even put in there, Jeff, I put that when I sent it to you, I said, offer solutions. Don't just complain, like, maybe give some solutions too. I think I got like two. You got two solutions, but about a hundred different people just making different comments. And not everything is bad. There's a lot of positive things too, but I decided to take the negative ones and let you hit that head on because I felt like, one, it's better content. Two, it allows you to kind of talk your, you know, talk through it from your perspective. And not many people have access to you. Right. And not many people get to hear your perspective or, or even understand what's going on behind the scenes, you know, to, you know, to, to move, you know, to, to change the business or the perception or whatever. So this. So. And you haven't done one of these, have you? You haven't, you didn't. You haven't done one of these before in this home services space.
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Jeff Kip
Are we the first, I think, of this type? Yeah, yeah, a couple of interviews, but not with somebody of your stature and reach.
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Chris
Okay, well, I'm excited for it. Chad, are you ready? Are you, Chad? You get uncomfortable about this Kind of stuff. He's. Yeah.
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Jeff Kip
It should not look uncomfortable.
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Chad Peterman
No, I'm excited. I think this is a. This is interesting. This is really interesting to me because I think we know from the roofing space kind of these. You know, I'll categorize them all as kind of lead aggregators. I think it's one of those things that was, like, popular, and then it kind of went away. And then, like, when we started the roofing business, like, hold on a second. Like, this could be a really good lead source for us. Like, how do we dive in and. And figure this out? So I'm excited to learn more about this space and. And how we can, you know, hopefully both benefit each other, which would be awesome.
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Jeff Kip
That'd be great.
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Chris
Hey. Hey. You know, Jeff, you know, you know, I think we talked about this on our call. You know Lance Bachman, right? And, like, I got. And do you know Bill works for Lance, too? Bill.
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Jeff Kip
I know Bill pretty well.
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Chris
Okay. So Bill sent me a message this morning, the video message this morning, because he knew I was interviewing you, and he was talking to me about what they have done on their roofing platform with you guys specifically and the success that they've had and like, to the number. And I was like, wait a second. So, Chad, just so you know, as soon as I heard that, I text our partners. I mean, I've texted Billy, and I'm like, hey, these guys are killing it with the Angie's. We need to make sure we take a look at it. So clearly there's plenty of things that work exceptionally well too. But. But I want to. I want to address, you know, the hard questions first, because I'll. As we know, Jeff, like, if. If there's a lot of people asking the same question, whether perception is true or not true or whatever, it. Let's hit it head on. So I'm just. I'm just gonna jump right in and. And we'll let her rip. But, you know, actually, let's. Let's do this. I want to make sure that I give the listeners just a peek into your background so they understand besides Angie, like, where you're pulling from and kind of where you have been. Because though you've been there for, I think it's 10 years or 10 years or something along those lines. Really, you've only been the CEO that almost is a. Almost two years. Something like that. Like, is that what.
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Jeff Kip
Yeah, yeah.
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Chris
Okay. So. So maybe just share a little bit of the background, you know, leading up to. To Angie and kind of your progression through Angie, because I know you're doing some stuff over overseas too. Or. And so maybe just give. Share that and then I'll jump into the. Into the good stuff.
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Jeff Kip
I'll be quick. I'll start at the very beginning, which is I'm a Latin teacher's kid. When I got out of college, I became a history teacher and basketball coach. When I started having children, I realized I needed to make more money. Went to business school and went into financial services and ultimately became a CFO, which led me to HomeAdvisor's parent company. And I worked directly with the HomeAdvisor guys starting 15 years ago. Ish. And after four or five years doing that, I decided I wanted to move back to Boston. And Barry Diller, who's the chairman of the parent, was the chairman of the parent company, and Joey Levin, who was the CEO, offered me the chance to work with the international home services businesses and run those. And so that's where I started sort of formally part of Angie, although I was working with them pre Angie's List merger. So I spent about eight years focused on the international business. The difference between the international business and the US business is about a tenth the size. And the average pro internationally, 70% of them are non employers. So it's the pro and it's not trucks in Europe, it's vans and their phone, and maybe the relative helps them with the billing, but it's generally non employers. And what we did with that business is we had five different countries with five different platforms. And over the period of eight years, we brought all the technology together. We really focused on improving the product and the interaction between the pro and the customer. And we were able to take that business and started growing double digits. And we were able to take the win rate on the platform to about 1 in 4. And so we achieved success there. And a couple of years ago, my boss, Joy Levin, was the CEO of Angie, asked me to come help. And that's how I got into the U.S. business. And so my orientation coming in was let's figure out the core product. Let's make sure the lead quality improves. You know, let's get the organization focused and get, get. Just like any other business, we need to get our unit economics right and not spending money that didn't pay back. And so I spent my first period of time doing that. And I think over the last year we've become very focused on how do we have this expression, Angie that you probably hear in our ads, job's done well, homeowners come because they Want a job done well. Pros actually come because they want to do jobs well. But we sort of started this new expression, which is we want jobs won well for our pros. Pro doesn't just want to lead. He doesn't want to just have a chat with a homeowner. He or she wants to actually win the work, do it well, get a great review, get paid for it, and build their business. And so we've sort of started to change our orientation coming from that background into how do we make sure our customers are not just buying our leads, but how do we make sure they're winning them enough.
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Chris
So when you were doing that, did you have to move or did you. Were you running that out of the States?
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Jeff Kip
So I was working through four European offices and then an office in Canada. So I was living in Boston, but I was pre pandemic. I was flying over there for two weeks a month.
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Chris
Got it.
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Jeff Kip
Frequent flyer miles.
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Chris
Yeah, I would imagine. Okay, so. So now let's real quick, for those who don't quite understand what all Angie does, maybe just offer, like you talk about pros. That's what you're talking about your clients, right? Your clients are the pros. But maybe what are some of the. The tools? Because you've got, you know, Angie ads you've got. So maybe just explain like what the options are for a, you know, contractor to use at Angie. So we'll just kind of start high level with the product offering.
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Jeff Kip
So what we've actually done is we've consolidated the various products into one core offering, which is we sell you leads, hopefully leads you when we think they're good leads, because we call thousands of homeowners a month to find out what happens. And about six in ten hire a pro. So we think they're reasonable. You can buy that through a few different packages. You can buy a subscription, which is commit to a monthly payment, and then we burn down the budget within that. So it's a commitment. In exchange for a discount, you can also buy them on what you'd call a budget where you say spend up to X and you match, you get matched up to X or Y and you can turn them on or off. So it's a pay per lead rather than a fixed cost with a discount. And then the last way you can do it is you can sort of buy them one by one. You can get notified when a homeowner is interested in you and accept it or not. Or you can look at leads and choose them and hope that the homeowner picks You. So it's three ways to buy, but it's really one core product. We've moved away from the old ads and leads construct.
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Chris
Okay. Because that actually that question came up a couple different times. So it seems like there's still some confusion around how the model actually is. So thanks for clarifying on that. So some of you listening, there's your answer for that. Now a couple quick, easy questions just to kind of help set the tone is and we talked a little bit about this on. I think there's also misunderstanding on what the right size of company is like. There's still some misunderstanding on who's an actual good Angie's customer. So like what, what is like an ideal or is there an ideal contractor or pro range, you know, that, that you guys think fits the mold?
- [14:20]
Jeff Kip
So I don't think there is. I think historically we've asked for people to commit to at least 300 bucks a month in spend, which I think restricts some pros who don't want to commit to a few hundred bucks a month. We've recently rolled out an online self enroll package where pros can buy leads one by one. So actually the way our product works now is we can go to large pros and sell at high volume. We get a medium sized pros who can set a fixed amount they want each month. Or small pros can come in and browse and pick these leads one by one. So I actually think if you want a core product which is a lead where the homeowner is 60% likely to hire a pro, you can use it at any size and you can use it three different ways.
- [15:07]
Chad Peterman
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- [15:57]
Chris
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- [17:12]
Chad Peterman
Jeff, do you. Do you see, I guess along those same lines of, like, is it right for every contractor? Do you. I imagine you have the data, but, like, do you see Angie? I mean, like, is there a big discrepancy across markets and does it work? Well, I think this is always the big thing. I always think of, like, Yelp. Like, a lot of people on the west coast are like, oh, yeah, Yelp is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And I'm sitting here in Indiana going, I don't even know that anybody uses this software. So do you guys see, like, a big discrepancy and you don't tell me, like, exact areas, but, like, across the country as, like, oh, we're really, really good here, but, like, here, like, people just don't seem to interact with the platform from a customer perspective.
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Jeff Kip
We definitely have different. We have different levels of competition, and we have different levels of consumer awareness. I'll just give you the really easy ones, which is we have really high brand awareness in Indy because that's where this was. And we have really high brand awareness in Denver, and we have high pro concentration and what we call liquidity, which means a homeowner comes and they're likely to find, you know, a couple of pros. You know, ironically, we have some. Some markets that you wouldn't expect. Pittsburgh and St. Louis are a couple where you have lower liquidity across some of the main trades. And we're not as developed there, so it does vary.
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Chad Peterman
Yeah.
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Chris
Now, okay. So a couple more easy questions. Is there, like, this industry. Is there, like, a limit to the industry? Like, is there. There's more than just home service? You know, home service pros, home improvements pros. Is there, like, a niche that you kind of stay within as far as a customer type or pro type?
- [18:50]
Jeff Kip
So in general, we're looking primarily at the construction specialty construction trades. We also get into some home services, you know, lawns made handyman, some appliance repair. But, you know, yeah, we're really looking at core construction specialty construction. If you went to your kind of government definitions of trades.
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Chris
Got it. Okay. And then last question, which I think is a good one. Who should. Who should not use Angie?
- [19:23]
Jeff Kip
Somebody who is not prepared to follow up quickly the lead and actually go to the homeowner and present well and try and close that lead out like the best version of the salesperson they can be with their personality. I think if you buy leads and you don't call them quickly and get the appointment scheduled and go in, and I'm not a good salesperson, but you have to go in with integrity and you have to deal with your unique selling proposition and explain why you. You like the work and you do a good job. If you're not prepared to do that, you're gonna. You're gonna not spend your money.
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Chad Peterman
Well, yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, I think that's. I mean, what we've seen with lead aggregators is it is a race to. It's a race to follow up. And then how. How persistent are you with follow up to get them on the phone? And I think some people are quick to dismiss kind of this area of leads because they don't have the back office set up. I'm sure Chris has never heard this before of like, oh, yeah, we drove all these leads. Well, you didn't answer the phone. You didn't book any le of the leads that we sent you. So, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, there that. Something that was never said.
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Chris
Oh, I mean, my entire life, the past two decades.
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Chad Peterman
Yeah, for sure.
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Chris
Gotcha. Okay. Those are the easy ones, Jeff.
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Jeff Kip
All right, let's go. Are we gonna go to medium, or are we gonna go straight to the hard one?
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Chris
No, we're going. We're going straight for the jugular.
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Chad Peterman
Now.
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Chris
Now, here's what I did again and again, man. So much respect for tackling this. And. And I love that you're coming at it super transparent and, like, with, like, a servant mindset. So thank you for. For knocking this thing out for us. But Again for our listeners, what I did was I made a post on social media. Some of you are listening were part of that. Thank you. And just ask for everybody to give us their feedback. Turns out we were around 140 some odd comments in less than 24 hours. Not too shabby. And all I did was compile it, throw it in chat, GPT have it rank it from, you know, highest to lowest of volume of like the same type of, you know, comment. And I just said we'll take the top four and we'll let it rip. So and it seemed like it was, you know, a pretty significant and just from some of the things you just said, I think is going to put some of this stuff to bed. I think it's some of the unknown or perception from back in 2022 or 2021 or 20 or whatever so, or even before. So first one is the number one concern that, that we heard from contractors was lead quality fake information confused homeowners dead numbers like numbers that don't, that don't work. What has Angie changed in the last call? I mean you've been at it for two years. What does Angie change in the last couple years to improve lead validation and trust?
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Jeff Kip
So we've done a bunch of stuff. The biggest thing we did was we moved from a fair percentage of our leads being automatched. So the pro gives us their preferences. If the homeowner comes in and says I have a roof repair, if you Chris, are signed up for it and have budget, we automatch. What we move to is you only pay for that lead if we show the homeowner your profile card and the homeowner chooses you.
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Chris
So they take action. Homeowners or homeowner has to take action,
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Jeff Kip
has to take action and that, that drives the win rate significantly. We saw from early 23 until we, until the two months after we rolled out what we call homeowner choice, we saw about a 20% lift in win rate. It was about year over year and then over the course of the year we've seen I may not have my numbers exactly right, but roughly 15% more. So we've been able to drive win rates simply because you know this having run an agency intent ultimately leads to higher purchase and so the choice actually follows to the purchase. So that's been a big thing. The biggest thing that did is we'll, we'll talk about this but if you look at our numbers, our affiliate revenue is down 60, 70% year over year. You can see that publicly. I, I don't have the exact number at my fingertips. So our affiliate channel, which is where we work with other lead aggregators when our pros match their leads to find the homeowners, we've cut away 60 to 70% of that revenue. It's going to be more than 250 million year over year has come out of the business and you know it. Those were all automatched. Right. So we've removed all that, which has changed a lot of the aged and shared leads. They're literally driven by homeowners who click and then they're live.
- [24:13]
Chris
So this significantly increases quality, like legit quality for a better win rate.
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Jeff Kip
Yeah. Intent and winability. I think the other thing we've done is just like you did with your business, we're always looking for channels where we can find more volume. You know, one of the things we hear from our larger pros is where can we get more volume? So we're always looking and we're a business we're trying to grow profitably. So we'll get into new channels, we'll scale them up. But if we find that the win rate is running in the like mid low single digits, we'll throw it away. So we've thrown away another big pile of revenue of channels we've gotten into and gotten to work and thrown it away. So we systematically look for weak quality traffic and get rid of it. And I think those two things of what's are what's really driven the rise we've seen in win rate. Again, we call thousands of. We talk to thousands of homeowners every month to make sure we actually know what's happening and figure out are they hiring our pros are they're hiring other pros. And I think in terms of pure lead quality, that's what we've done. The last thing we've done is more recent which is in the fall we installed a new software package and which is a anti spam software. So it's trying to read all the signals from the traffic and toss or qualify the more suspect it's obviously based on a machine learning score and let through the jobs that actually qualify as good intent. So We've done those three things. We've probably tossed 7% actually of our traffic since we rolled that out. So we're continually sort of making sure that we're delivering more value per lead to our pros.
- [25:56]
Chris
Got it. So has this been like spread out through over this last couple of years, like kind of, you know, systematically doing one than another? Has this kind of Been like, is it just like how new is. Is some of this. Are these changes, I guess is where I'm going.
- [26:10]
Jeff Kip
So if you go back to late 22, when Joey took over, he started looking at core vendors who were taking what we call service requests from and getting rid of the lower quality stuff. We accelerated. I came in as the President in late 23, we were accelerating around then, and we started eliminating some of these auto accept leads. And as we worked through trying to continually strip out our lower quality stuff, we got to the point where we decided it was time to move to choice. Our Europe business runs entirely on choice delivers delivered a better hire rate and a better win rate on platform. And intuitively it makes sense. If you talk to homeowners, they think, I want to choose the pro calls me and pros think I don't want somebody who doesn't want a phone call from me. So intuitively it made sense. This was combined with the fcc. I don't know if you guys are familiar as the fcc. It got thrown out by the new administration, but they were going to require consent anytime a phone number was shared with the business. So with all this coming together, we made the move to do it. And that was January last year. A little over a year ago we did that. And then as we look for more traffic, we've embraced this discipline of systematically getting rid of traffic that doesn't prove to be effective. So I think we've really accelerated over the last year. But we've been working on it for. We'd also accelerated a bit a year before and they'd already been working on it. But I think if you thought about it, I think today we're at our highest average quality that we've been in a decade.
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Chris
I mean, well, to me it sounds like if I was to summarize it, it's just leads, leads. I'm going to use air quotes. Volume of leads has now taken a backseat to the quality of the lead, which is lesser because you cut out some of the stuff that was not really like we're buying all these leads and sending them out. And it was doing auto match, which maybe really wasn't a good lead, which is the. Which is what people are feeling like, hey, I'm getting the stuff that's. I don't even know I'm calling or whatever it is like kind of cuts out some of that stuff. So am I going down the right path with.
- [28:22]
Jeff Kip
If you go back to 2022, we've jettisoned well over half a billion in revenue wow. We're about $1 billion in revenue, but we were over one and a half then. And that doesn't even include some of the stuff we've scaled up and thrown away. So we're not perfect. I'm not going to get on here and tell anybody that we're perfect. And you're going to reach every lead. It's the Internet. We do our best and we're continually trying to tweak it up, but we've, we've really been working at this for a few years. If you watch our stock price, the market doesn't love it, but we are really trying to serve our customers while we build our business.
- [29:01]
Chris
Yeah, it doesn't love it yet, but that's the reset, or whatever you want to call it, right? Because you're trying to. Listen, you need, you need pros, and you want pros to stay. And the way pro stays, they get leads that they actually, more often than not, if they win at a 60% rate, then it's worth, it's worth staying if the price, you know, if the price is right and you're setting your budget. So all that makes sense to me. So to me, it sounds like a reset. Right? And now it's kind of working back on the quality of the product, which will start to scale the business, which will make all the investors happy. That's the game, right? Sounds like.
- [29:31]
Jeff Kip
Yeah, in an ideal world, we all, everybody's. Everybody wins.
- [29:35]
Chris
And this is a step, like, this is just a step in the journey of hitting it head on versus just kind of staying in there. Like, it'd be super easy for you as a CEO to really never step out into the public, this, like, type of a forum and hit this stuff head on. So, so you have something that's worth talking about that's legit change, which kind of goes right into my next question. And that is, if you were a, a contractor listening, listening to this right now, what proof would you need before trusting Angie again,
- [30:06]
Jeff Kip
what proof would you need? I mean, I think generally people have to see it to believe it, if you will. And so I would encourage. I'll give an email address if a pro wants to trial with us. CEO g.com you can write to me, tell me your story, and we'll try and figure out a way to prove it to you. I think the best way to prove something is actually to try it. And I think the other thing is, you know, we need pros to embrace the. What's the expression? Speed to lead. We need the pros to embrace whether you're, whether you're a non employer or whether you have a hundred employees and you're whatever millions of dollars of business you have to embrace. I need to get that appointment booked and I need to get in there and I need to sell appropriately and close the deal. And I, we believe if you talk to Lance or Bill, I went to their conference and I saw a kid stand up and say, you know, look, I've got about a million dollar business. I want to get this to 5 million and more. I'd love to sell it, I'd love to buy a house for my mother. What do I need to do, Mr. Bachmann? And Lance says, do you have salespeople going on your calls? And he said, I have mech technicians. And Lance says, do you know, do they know how to sell? And the guy says, I don't know. He said, well, we have to start there. So I think if pros are ready to embrace speed to lead and selling and then doing the good work, getting the review and building their reputation. Your good friend Tommy Mello gave a great speech about take the film right there and put it on your website. I think if pros are willing to embrace that, we think our, we think our leads are good enough to win and build a business.
- [31:46]
Chad Peterman
Yeah, well, I think it's, it goes back to what you said earlier. It's, you know, I think a lot of contractors have to get away from. Well, I'm just going to blame the lead. It sounds like from what you're saying, hey, we're doing everything we can to get the lead quality, quality up, to make sure that your traffic is good, which probably plays to the benefit of a lot of smaller contractors. Because I would rather have two good leads because I only have the capacity to run two as opposed to five where three are crappy. And I waste my time running across town to do this. But to your point, the speed to lead is part of your sales process. How responsive are you going to be? Or are you going to let that sit and call them back tomorrow or the next day or whenever you have a free time? And then how good is your presentation in the home? Like, you can't blame the lead if you went out and your sales presentation sucks. That's on you, buddy. So like I, I, we can only get you so far. We can get you in the door, but from there you've got to take it to the next step. And I think that's, for me, the biggest thing that, that contractors have to wrap their mind around. Is like selling a job is not just about, well, it was a crappy lead. Well, like, okay, well, like, were you a crappy salesperson? It. There's a whole lot more steps to completing selling a job and completing it well than just, oh, let's just blame the lead quality.
- [33:11]
Chris
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I mean, we. I love those conversations because this is actually, if you're listening right now, this is a common thing that happens is our ego gets in the way of progress and it can't be us, it can't be our sales process, it can't be our CSRs and it's got to be somebody else's fault. And then you talk smack about somebody else when honestly, you probably need to look in the mirror a little bit, you know, and if you can let go of your ego and say, oh, maybe it is me, well then just maybe you can make this stuff work. So instead of like going against the grain, like maybe dial in your process and make sure it's legit. Like not a you problem before you start, you know, poo pooing on everything. So I love this topic and I think this is still a major problem. Chad, Chad, you know, just from your coaching group, you probably coach on this stuff all the time with people. It's the same thing. We talk about it all the time. Speed to lead matters, of course, that's like anything. That's why we have cell phones, computers in our hands. Like everything, like instant gratification is a thing. It's not going away. It's the same thing when we're trying to solve problems. Right. If you got a homeowner trying to solve a problem, they reach out to a pro. They want to pro to get to them quick. They want to have done, check the box, feel good about it and moving on, moving on to the next thing. I'm no different. So one thing I want to talk about real quick is one Jeff, thank you for sharing. The CEO@angie.com. that's a N G. I just so everybody knows. Ang.com very cool of you to do that. May you know, God rest your soul in your inbox because it's probably going to be.
- [34:41]
Jeff Kip
I will, I will beg for a little bit of grace on my speed to lead there, but I will, I will make sure we get to all your emails.
- [34:50]
Chris
I mean you let the cat out of the bag there.
- [34:52]
Jeff Kip
That's all right. We look, if we don't help our customers, if we don't listen to our customers problems, how are we going to Serve them.
- [34:59]
Chris
Yeah. And that's great. And actually that, that pivots right into my next question, which I asked you this too, and I'm glad you have it. But we didn't dig too deep on it and we don't need to dig deep on. I just want to understand, I asked you, I said, hey, you have pros and cons. Do you have a pro advisory group like the, like clients of yours that you can go to to say, hey, you tell us, like, what are we doing? What aren't we doing? You have that right. You guys have a pro advisory group?
- [35:23]
Jeff Kip
We do. We have two pro councils, actually. We have a smaller pro council and then we have what we call an enterprise pro council so that we can listen to the concerns of smaller pros, which are a bit different than the, as we were just as I referenced earlier and you know, than the concerns of the scaled or scaling pros. So we do talk to both. I personally try and go out of my way to talk to some of our larger customers. Whenever I have a pro in the house, I try and talk to them. In Europe, I've done coffee with literally hundreds of pros. I want to get into a little bit better circuit with our smaller pros here. But we do constantly seek advice and feedback and dialogue.
- [36:02]
Chris
Great. So now, so now are you analyzing the consumer? You're analyzing the client, the price?
- [36:07]
Chad Peterman
Absolutely.
- [36:09]
Jeff Kip
And we like, like any good company, we do a lot of customer research. We have very good trained UX researchers who know how to, you know how to ask the question behind the question. Right. If I go and if I really have to find out without asking you directly the answer. So we, we're constantly doing that and trying to figure it out. Because just like a pro who's trying to succeed in their business, we're trying to succeed in ours with our customers.
- [36:35]
Chris
Yep, got it. Okay. I love that. Okay, I'm gonna move on to number two. I ad libbed a little bit more than I meant to on there, but I thought it was worth talking about. All right, number two is the frustration is around the credit process. It was that contractors feel like it's automated and Rayleigh results in credits. What have you changed or plan to change, if anything, to make that more transparent or fair to their perspective? To the point listeners, listen up. What if the biggest thing holding back your business isn't marketing or hiring, but your bennies? The benefits for home service companies, a better 401k can be the difference between great techs and losing them to the shop. Right? Down the street, Basic Capital, our newest sponsor, is the only 401k built to actually put your team on a real property path to retirement. Companies that switch over see higher participation, happier teams, and dramatically low turnover. Because your crew finally gets a plan that's a true benefit, not just a checkbox. Don't wait until your best people walk. Make the move and click the link below to get 12 months with 0 employer fees when you join Basic Capital.
- [37:50]
Jeff Kip
So what we do right now may not be perfect. What we do is we follow up on every single complaint. There. There's categories where we do them immediately. We actually do proactive refunds. If we, if we detect that something's a spam, you know, a worthless type of lead, and it got matched to multiple pros, we'll proactively look for the opportunity to do that. But we'll check everyone. The problem we have is when the pro says something and we can't find that and we can't get to the homeowner, what do we do? And again, it's if the pro does their best work and the homeowner says, just come and repaint the wall, when do you make the decision that you're going to throw that in? So this is one where I can't say we're perfect. What we want to do is factually refund anything that's not a fair lead. Right. We all know it's a numbers game. You're not going to win all of them. You're going to have some homeowners put the service request in and then they were going to build a deck, but they wrecked their car. They. Some of that is fair. But then the stuff where it's a non existent person or I'm looking for a job on your podcast, so I submit the SR to you or any number of other things like that we want to refund it, but we have this problem of how do we verify it. And I'm not claiming that's perfect. I'm not claiming that's exactly right. But that's where we are.
- [39:12]
Chris
Yeah, because you still need some like, like some proof, right. To, to, you know, like, there's got to be something in there. Like you can't just be here. Like I said, you know, he said, she said, like, there's got to be some sort of verification process that everyone's aware of to say, okay, I know in order to get that, it's this. Some things, like if it's a dead number, like you said, it's a J.
- [39:32]
Jeff Kip
If we know it's if we know it's not a real phone number. Yeah, it's. We call, we call every refund request. So we do try and make an effort to do it. I think I'm open to ideas again, you can write me and I'm open to complaints but we do try and verify them all. The problem is when we have something where it's a he said, nobody else said anything else. How do we figure that out? And I'm just being honest.
- [39:58]
Chris
Sound like you were open to some suggestions. I'm sure someone will give some to you.
- [40:01]
Jeff Kip
But yeah, I get a lot of suggestions so I'm open to them.
- [40:06]
Chris
Do you think that this shift from the auto match to like this like self select model will help clean some of this stuff up too? Like some of these issue like credit issues that are like. I mean, I don't know if that would, I mean because if it's a better, if it's better quality, I mean I.
- [40:24]
Jeff Kip
Maybe, maybe so we've done multiple things so we've moved to this homeowner choice we've also went through and if you, if you've used Angie, you know, you go in and you have a roofing job, you we ask you some questions. We have gone through and tried new questions on about 90% and picked the winners on a bunch and we've been able to reduce on the winners which is say half of that or so ish. We've been able to reduce the wrong task matching by about 25%. 20, 25%. And so we've been able to do that. We've also implemented AI in that homeowner service request path so that if a homeowner's confused by the question, they can tell us in their own words and then we can get them on the right track. So we've really significantly improved our matching. The other thing we did is when we moved away from Angie Ads, Angie ads was a broad match. So if you signed up for roofing, you got anything related to a roof, you might really over index roof repair and not get roof reno which is what you want. And now we've allowed all pros to specifically request the tasks. So we've actually changed a bunch about our matching to reduce our refund rate. So it's. We're all trying to get to where we only want good matches. We want the job, the, the pro, the homeowner. We want the homeowner to find the pro they need and we want the pro to get matched with the lead they want. So we're constantly optimizing there. And as I said, we're now trying to deploy LLM technology to drive the improvement there.
- [41:55]
Chad Peterman
Yeah, Jeff, is there anything like you guys are obviously doing a lot to make sure that you got the right match. Is there anything on the contractor side that they can do to kind of help the cause? Like is there like a better profile? Is there like what, what, what should they be on the lookout for to help, oh, this is going to help me get better. The right leads in the bucket.
- [42:16]
Jeff Kip
So there's definitely filling out the profile. Right. Getting I would say a professional profile picture. Not a selfie that you shoot in your truck from, from your lap, but you get a professional profile picture, you get a good, well written, simple, to the point business description with any key information. We give a two year guarantee on our roof, whatever it is. And then also making sure you have portfolio pictures before and after. So getting your profile set up and then relentlessly, you know, you can bring in reviews from other sources and then relentlessly getting your customers to give you good reviews. If you build that profile like that, you can drive the likelihood that you're selected specifically by a homeowner. And again, I don't have the stats because we, I don't think we can measure when does the homeowner. We might be able to, but when does the homeowner actually read everything and then select. But I'm willing to bet when they, when somebody goes through getting all the information, having the, researching, selecting, it really jumps your opportunity to get hired afterwards. So I think building a good profile, we've seen that having those key pro elements and at least one good review more than doubles your win rate in certain geographies.
- [43:30]
Chad Peterman
Yeah,
- [43:32]
Chris
okay, that actually makes sense to me. I didn't even think about the frequency of reviews on a profile. Yeah, might help in this. You know, in the selection process there's changes.
- [43:49]
Jeff Kip
One good review, one five star review only is better than five and a score of three and a half. Right. And so when you get to five good ones, there's step changes. 1, 5, 20, 50, right. There's a lot of diminishing marginal returns, but it's still good to rack them all up. But developing good reviews and really being focused, I'm sure, you know, one of, one of the things I've heard from people is, you know, the five star approach. When you walk into the house say hi, I'm here, I'm going to do the job. I'm committed to giving five star service. And what would really help me is if you give me feedback while I'm doing the job and am I not doing something worthy of five star service? Because I want to correct it on the spot and I want to get to the end with you feeling like you got five star service and that, that might come from Tommy or somebody else. I can't remember where I heard it. But if you go through with that mentality and you're driving a dialogue with a homeowner where you make sure you're almost guaranteed to get that review at the end.
- [44:45]
Chris
Chad, a good point. Chad, how many reviews you guys have? Peterman Brothers now, like, roughly, in Indy,
- [44:52]
Chad Peterman
we've got like 10,000, but across all locations, probably close to 30, I'd say.
- [44:58]
Jeff Kip
So 20, 30.
- [44:59]
Chris
So you're so to, to Jeff's point, your review process is, I mean, maybe you don't do it like that. Like you guys aren't doing it like that, but you clearly have something that works really, really well with collecting those reviews. Do you hit them like right when they come in? You kind of follow that path. Like what's, what's, what's yours?
- [45:18]
Chad Peterman
So the, the key is, is the actual technician talking about it. We have it automated to where they can, they can send it the request, they can send it. But what we find is you get a lot more reviews if one, two things. One, you make it personal. So, you know, the technician says, hey, you know, Mr. Mrs. Smith, hopefully I did a great job for you. If there anything else I can do, if, if you have five minutes, if you could leave a review and put my name in it as your technician, that would really help. And you know, you can say all kinds. I mean, it's actually one of their KPIs, so that's actually not fabricated is how many reviews they get. So like, hey, this really helps me. You know, I may get a raise, I may, you know, whatever it may be. But it would really help if you could, you could leave some positive feedback. So they've got to talk about it. If they just send them, then the customer's like, okay, cool, this sounds great. So, I mean, I always think about it like when you go to a restaurant, like, if I'm just going to a restaurant, it's like, I'm not going to spend the time I eat, I've eaten here, you know, however many times, like, yeah, the food's good, I get it. But you're more likely to review your server if you had really good service. Like they were on it, they were getting you filling up your water, doing all that stuff. So, like, when you can make it personal, it's not so much about reviewing the company. It's like, yeah, they fixed my furnace great. But no, like, Bill was like, awesome. Like, he was great. He pet the dog. He did all the things. Like, he's awesome. So that. That's kind of how we encourage it and just making it top of mind, I think, to your. Your people out in the field need to know why a review is so valuable. Like, what does that mean? Like, the more reviews we get, the more work that we get to send you on. Like, this ultimately affects you. Whereas I think a lot of times it's just like, well, they're just asking me to get a review so they can pull up their Google page and, you know, stroke their ego about how many reviews they got for the business.
- [47:09]
Chris
Right. So. So here's where I'm going with that is if you're a pro or thinking about becoming a pro and you're going into the home, treat the. Treat the review process the same to get the review on your profile.
- [47:25]
Chad Peterman
Yeah.
- [47:26]
Chris
Because it helps your overall. It should help your overall results. It's kind of what I'm trying to get. So whether it's either or doesn't matter. You need to have a process for that. Knowing you're going on an Angie lead as a pro, you need to get that profile, some reviews. So. Okay, moving on. My Goodness, we're already 45 minutes into this thing. Okay.
- [47:47]
Jeff Kip
To the hard stuff.
- [47:50]
Chris
I like it. Dang it. I got too many questions and not enough time. Okay, so there is still a perception that shared leads create a race to the bottom. How are you evolving? The shared lead model is distribution based on speed budget review. Maybe you shared some of this already too, but maybe just give me the. A short and sweet answer to that one. If you can, or whatever you want to do.
- [48:16]
Jeff Kip
And when you. I just want to clarify, in the industry, right, a shared lead can mean we have one aggregator over here that matches it to people, sells it to another aggregator and matches it. Do you mean that or do you mean the fact that a homeowner might choose multiple pros on our platform?
- [48:34]
Chris
So. So here's what I think that they mean. And I could be wrong too, Jeff, but here's what I think that they mean is I'm. Because there's a perception that that person got the lead that also went to X amount of other contractors at the same time. And I think that's the position that they're coming from. Is. And when that happens, Is it a race to the. That does that create a race to the bottom? Which, by the way, I think that's a sales thing, not a. Not an Angie problem as far as a race to the bottom. But maybe let's just talk about that. Like, is that how the process works with the. With the new homeowner choice model? Like, do they. Can they click on multiple people and it goes to multiple. Maybe talk about that.
- [49:12]
Jeff Kip
So homeowners can choose up to five pros. In reality, the. The number of times five pros get picked is low single digits, and four or five pros is. I'd have to look at the number. I think it's high single digits, maybe low double digits. So it's not a lot. I think the reality is we've done a lot of surveys, and when you go across all home services, what you generally find is you get an average of USA to homeowners. How many pros you want? They say two. They want two. They want to compare larger jobs. They want more smaller jobs. They want my smaller, cheaper jobs. They might say, just get me somebody. There's water on my bathroom floor. Right. And so our view of it is we're going to present the pros who want the lead, and the homeowner is going to choose how many pros they want to talk to. If they. If they want multiple pros and they don't choose them on our platform, they're going to find them somewhere else. So there's going to be competition anyway. So it's not our model to try and necessarily share leads. It's our model to serve the homeowner and give the pros a chance to win. I think people can get into hot debates about whether it should be four or five or three. And I think, you know, we. We're open to those debates. We don't think necessarily we have everything right. And we know when somebody feels like there's a lot of competition, they don't feel good. But we do know that when a homeowner wants to talk to multiple people, they're going to. Your best bet is to call them right away, get in the house, try and sell first or sell best.
- [50:41]
Chad Peterman
We do.
- [50:41]
Jeff Kip
I'll just say one more thing, Ryan, which is we do occasionally get this thing where people think we're selling to dozens of people. We don't. We're not sure. We've investigated any number of these cases. We can't track them. We think it's possible that sometimes pros will buy a lead from us and then sell it to other people. We have no idea. So we've tried to knock that out because sometimes we get that complaint and we can't figure it out. So I don't know if that's what the person's referring to, but we're a max of five and that's a very tiny percentage of our leads.
- [51:15]
Chris
Got it. I think that's actually a very common question. I mean Chad, you probably hear that same stuff. Oh, it's selling it to the same person. You know, we all have to go race for it and fight for it and, and it seems like there's, there's still the homeowner still choosing based on whatever's given to, to the homeowner to, you know, of the profiles that are shown to them, you know, but which if you can continue reviews on your profile, maybe you get more at bats or more, you know, more options by, by getting, you know, five star service across all platforms. But you can increase your odds, I should say. But I agree, like most people don't want five people coming to their house. Like, I don't like that. Takes time, right. To go meet with all this. We want to get stuff done quickly.
- [51:53]
Chad Peterman
Yeah, well, and also like if you're gonna complain about the it being shopped out to other people, like, so Google's great. Like they ever, they show everybody it's all there. Like, I don't, I mean, yeah, there's gonna be competition. I don't know that it's a race to the, I mean it's a race to the bottom. If we as contractors race to the bottom. Exactly as opposed. So, so stop racing to the bottom. I was just talking to somebody like, hey, there should be a floor on what it costs to put in a 3 ton gas furnace and AC. Please stop selling it. I know that I always say this. I'm like, I know I'm buying equipment cheaper than they are. There's absolutely no way they could be making money on that job. No way. Like I can do the math, quick math. There's no way that you made any money. So again, it's like charge what your value is. If you're always racing to the bottom, well then that just tells me that you're not super good at what you do. So I probably don't want to go with you. And what we find is when we present six options on every call. So there is a bottom where essentially, you know, you can race to the bottom as a consumer, but most people wanted something in the middle. So it's not always you Got to be the best price. Are you the best person for the job? And how are you going to sell that to the homeowner?
- [53:19]
Chris
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- [54:47]
Chad Peterman
Well, some of that stuff just pisses me off. It's like, come on guys, let's. I just want to, I want to call all of the H vac contractors in Indianapolis and we're just gonna have a meeting and we're going to talk about how to price a job and what it should look like and then we'll all be doing better.
- [55:01]
Chris
It's great. Yeah, it is good to call that out though because it's kind of a bs, you know, negative thing to say. Right, because you're responsible for your race to the bottom. It's not the lead. Forget where it comes from. It's problem. Okay, I'm going to shift gears to you Jeff, because I got a short time and I got three, three questions for you and all these more like forward facing stuff and this is one that we kind of talked a little bit about, but I'm interested in your answer. With Google pushing deeper into, into local services and AI is changing search behavior on with the LLMs. How is Angie? How does Angie stay relevant and compete?
- [55:36]
Jeff Kip
So look, we look for homeowners who need work and pros who want work across every platform. Google is a machine learning platform, it always has been. Now they have AI mode, which is a more advanced LLM AI driven version of it. Google is still going to sell ads next to that content. Google is still going to surface content just like they surface SEO links. So we have a team of people who are working on how do we structure our data and our content so we get surfaced and our pros ultimately get exposed to homeowners who need them. And we are working on integrations. We just announced one with Amazon Alexa. We're working, we've, we've submitted an app to an app store for another major LLM and we're working on getting going there. We are deploying an LLM on our site and training the LLM so that we can demonstrate that we work effectively. And when we plug into the LLMs, we can do that. So we are just working actively. I think you ran a marketing agency. I've got a whole team of marketers who all they do is try and figure out how they find good homeowners to match with our pros. I think we're going to figure that out with LLMs and we have the team and the technology to do it. So I don't want to be glib, we don't have it solved. But it's another surface area. Businesses who are going to have ways that they want to monetize. I think Chat GPT just said they're going to monetize off any IP you create in there. So, so if they want to monetize, we're here to figure out how to efficiently help them monetize and get our pros work. That's, that's, that's how we approach it.
- [57:17]
Chris
Got it. Yeah. And the Chat GPT ads is going to start rolling out with the minimum of 200k budget. I mean, listen, it's all intriguing to me. I jump on it.
- [57:30]
Jeff Kip
We actively try and jump in and test and scale anything. If it works great, we scale it more. We've had a lot of success on meta over the last 12 months or so and if it doesn't work, we, we throw it back in the water.
- [57:44]
Chris
Sure. Of course you got to give it a go. You got to try it out and see how it works. Is there anything else new coming out besides the same Alexa thing that you can share or anything like new offering services, anything like that?
- [57:54]
Jeff Kip
We, we announced that we're working on. We have a lot of legacy technology. We have the old Home Advisor platform. We are going to decommission the old dangers list platform because we've moved to one product the next Thing we're going to do is we're going to rebuild our homeowner experience so that it is LLM powered and it's much more fluid and good for the homeowner. So we are going to progressively work through all these things, and hopefully we will deliver on both ends. We want to deliver a better experience to the homeowner, and we want to figure out how we either integrate with partners or develop our own technology to make sure pros get the appointment booked and the job won. So we're working across those surface areas.
- [58:37]
Chris
Yeah, it sounds like you guys are starting to make a lot of different changes, thinking about things differently. I mean, it's got to be incredibly difficult when you're public and you've got a lot of. A lot of people questioning every single decision, you know, that you make. And not, you know, they only see their perspective from their location on the mountain. They don't. You know, it's like they can't see the whole picture. All those. That's a lot of pressure. And you accepted that job willingly.
- [59:03]
Jeff Kip
Like any other job. Like any other job, we all. We all have the same things, just different people with opinions, right?
- [59:10]
Chris
That's right. But it seems like you're starting to, like, these last couple years since you've taken over as a CEO, like, there's starting to be some real progress happening and nothing moves fast at all. Especially when you have such a big business like that. There's a lot of moving parts and software and all kinds of things. It seems like you're starting to move some things forward. So I think this closing question is really, really fitting. And my closing question to you, Jeff, is if a contractor listening right now says, okay, I'm going to give Angie one more shot now that they've learned all the new things or maybe killed some of the perceptions that they had around how leads, how leads are distributed, or the auto match versus now the new homeowner choice, Whatever it is, anything that you said, they said, okay, I'm going to give it one more shot. What would you tell them to do differently today than maybe they did in the past?
- [60:00]
Jeff Kip
So the first thing I'd say is, send me an email, tell me your story, tell me what your problems were in the past, tell me what you want to see, and let me get you set up with the right person to talk to with the right sort of product. Secondly, I think you need to take some of this that you hear out in the marketplace from the really strong pros and people like yourself. You have to Take it very seriously. You need to get on there, you need to get your profile up and populated. You need to bring in the outside reviews. Your first job, one, you need to make sure you get a review on the site and then you need to be on top of these leads.
- [60:37]
Chad Peterman
Right?
- [60:37]
Jeff Kip
You may not have the capability to have a call center who calls right away and has the whatever sub 2 minute speed delete, but you have the capability to get in touch and be yourself and be responsive. Because whether it's on Angie or elsewhere, homeowners care. Homeowners don't actually understand well what you do. And their only way to understand it is to talk to multiple pros. So you need to get in there and sell in your own authentic, detailed, honest way. And you need to do it quickly. And you need to keep building your reputation. And I think if you do that, we want to see the number of pros who win the jobs on our platform go up. That's what we're committed to. And we will try and figure out a way to set you up in a way that sets you up. But you got to commit to it too. Don't spend the money if you're not going to commit to it.
- [61:27]
Chris
Great, great message. And I'll say this, hey, how, how roughly, how big is, how big of a business is Angie today? Top line, how were you at?
- [61:36]
Jeff Kip
It's about a billion dollars internationally. Yeah, about 900 million in the U.S. about 100 million more internationally.
- [61:43]
Chris
So you hear that listeners and the CEO Jeff on this podcast gives you an email to reach out to them directly. That has to say something to me. That says a lot because there's so many layers between you that could be helpful here. So this is you really stepping out, out front and hitting this stuff head on. And I appreciate you kind of letting me shoot this stuff at you. And like I've always kind of looked to, you know, you embrace the challenging questions because if you actually listen and find solutions and maybe you don't have all these challenges anymore, you're always going to have some challenges. But if you can start to chip away at some of the stuff, it starts to change the perception because the reality is actually it is different if you make some changes and you continue to use a, you know, your pro advisory group and reaching out to the homeowners and refining, refining, refining the, the process. So I commend you for those things and just thanks for, you know, giving us and all the listeners, you know, the time. You know, that that means a lot to me that you would do that and, and to the home and the home services community as a whole was such a big option for them. So I appreciate that.
- [62:39]
Jeff Kip
I appreciate the time and the opportunity to answer the questions and we'd love for people to give us another shot and we'd love to see them win.
- [62:46]
Chris
Chad, you got any. Anything else for Jeff?
- [62:49]
Chad Peterman
I don't just thank you. This has been, been really good. I think, as Chris said, I think your, your willingness to come on here and, you know, address people's issues. If there's anything that I know from talking to disgruntled customers of my own, a lot of times it's just confusion that we just need to sort out. And it's also, hey, we're going to stand behind our product like this is what it is. We think it's good. Yeah. Are we perfect? No. But we're, we're trying as best we can and we want to deliver, like you said, we want to get, deliver a great quality lead to a pro and, and we also want to take care of homeowners. And I think as a contractor, that is kind of the name of the game. So I think we're aligned there and just really appreciate the time and you coming on.
- [63:35]
Jeff Kip
Thank you very much.
- [63:36]
Chris
Well, and Jeff, I know I got to get you off here. You got a three year old to go get, so I don't want to hold you, hold you up anymore. But appreciate your time and listen to the listeners, man. Hopefully this brought some insight to you and that you will consider again. Chad, obviously you and I, you talked about this. I understand what you're like, you guys are doing more on the Peterman brothers side. We talk about it on the Redbird side because clearly from what we've learned from Lance and Bill, like there's a, this is working exceptional for them. Like, that isn't a fluke. So we need to, need to start to tap into some of these things. I learned some more stuff on here that I didn't know about Angie, so for me, it was also educational. But Jeff, appreciate your time again and I appreciate your position on this and coming on here. Chad, I always appreciate your commentary and to all of our listeners, like I always say, you don't got to do everything, but you got to do something. No zero days.