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To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
Former Mafia Boss, Michael Franzese, Shares Mob Secrets
00:49:46
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- [00:00]
Michael Franzese
The tax on, on every gallon of gasoline. Back then it was $0.09 federal. Today it's 18. It was $0.09 federal and, you know, 25, 30 between state and local, depending upon where you were located, you had close to 40 cents a gallon in many cases. So there was, you know, some clients we gave them, you know, we would take 20 cents. You know, others we would take 30 cents. So it all depended. So we were going between 5, 8, $10 million a week in income because we were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month and taking down 25, 30, 40 cents a gal. This is to the Point, a Rhino Experience bullet, one of the top home services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the and getting to the point.
- [00:52]
Chris
Hey, what's up to the Point listeners, it's your boy, Chris. We have got an exciting episode for you today. It is the week of Rhino X and our guest is actually going to be having an appearance at Rhino X. And I have been excited because I tried to get him to this event last year and he was in like Europe or something doing a tour, a speaking tour or something along those lines. But interesting story. I'll kind of tee this thing off with this. And I was talking to Michael about this a couple days ago is I was in Ireland back in 2020 with my family and, you know, the world was kind of getting weird and I was watching Netflix, which I didn't tell you that, Michael, which is how it came up because even though I was in Ireland, I was logged into my Netflix account and I was watching Fear City. And so which is how I learned of Michael Franzese, who's our guest. And I was just watching that. I watched it. I was watching, I think Get Gotti came out at the same time. So I was just kind of like going down this mob, you know, mobster rabbit hole. And. And so I just started doing a little bit of research. I thought, man, how cool would it be to get him at last year's Rhino X? Because we had the speakeasy vibe. It was like, perfect, you know, because prohibition is kind of about the time when the whole mob, you know, started. So it was, it was great timing, but I was able to research Michael. And Michael has a ton of content. If you follow him on social media, I promise you, you will after this. And he posts a ton of content. It's really good. It's always interesting. Like anything mob related, I think is super interesting. At least it is to me because there's a lot of curiosity about it. Unknowns. It's kind of. It's just, you know, it's a. It was a whole different world, and our guests lived in that world. So just a couple quick things is Michael Franzes is our guest and his dad, Sonny Franzes. And Sonny was another boss. And it was. They're a part of the Colombo crime plan. I think he was like 5 in, in New York of the Crimean or something along those lines. But Michael probably just correct me on a lot of this stuff, but his dad, Sonny was underboss. Yeah, well, he goes in prison until like 2000, 17, 18, something like that. And he was, what is he, like a hundred years old when he was released or something like that? Michael?
- [03:00]
Michael Franzese
It was 100.
- [03:01]
Chris
Yeah, 100 years old when he, when he got out. And then he passed away, I think, a couple of years later. Later after that, I believe. But what was interesting is I was, as I was researching Michael, I found the old Fortune magazine, you know, top 50, you know, top 50 biggest, most powerful mob bosses based on rank, wealth, power, you know, in US history. And Michael was number 18th on that list. He was the young pup they were calling the yuppie Don, the Prince of the Mafia. Does anybody every actual call you that stuff anymore? Just out of phone, Michael?
- [03:35]
Michael Franzese
Yeah, I get, I get that. I get the yuppie Don. You know, I don't like it, but they still do it.
- [03:42]
Chris
Well, I'm gonna call you Michael, because I'm not trying to piss you off, okay? So I risk be respectful. But it was interesting in that top 50 list, missing came out, you know, in the mid-80s and, and you were the youngest one on that list. And what was interesting, and I think I learned this from one, one of the pieces that you posted, is of those 50 people, there's only two people that are still alive. And you're the only one that's a free man. So good kudos to you for being the greatest showman of that top 50 and making it out. And what I think the coolest part about your story, Michael, is, you know, living in that world, obviously completely different. You know, you end up going to prison. You got out, you did your time, but, but you were, you come out reformed, like truly reformed, and you left that, you know, in the past, and you're using it for good. And you going around and you're doing speaking events all over the place. You've written books, you're working with youth. You go to the schools, the prisons, the churches. Like you're doing all this speaking stuff and, and using a lot of that Past experience and that reformation to go and do good stuff in the world. So kudos to you for like completely flip flopping that.
- [04:48]
Michael Franzese
Well, I appreciate it. And yeah, I guess reformed is the word, you know, redeemed might be a little bit better. But you know, it was, it was a process, to be honest with you, Chris. You know, it was my wife that started it off with me and then I spent, you know, almost three years in solitary confinement, became a person of faith. Through that time, just in, in my belief, my belief was solidified and then, you know, it was just able to have a change of heart, change of mind. And fortunately I had good people around me that kept me on track. Because, you know, I always say this, you can take the boy out of Brooklyn, you can't always take Brooklyn out of the boy. It's not automatic. You know, 30 years later, I still have those lingering thoughts that, you know, but you know, you fight them off and, and hopefully as you get older you get a little wiser, become a little better person. And hopefully that's, that's the case with me.
- [05:39]
Chris
Well, it sure seems like I've read a lot of really great stories about people who went and watched you or spent time with you and talked to you. So that says a lot, I think, about what you're doing. But you know, on this episode, like I told you, you know, for, for Rhino X, it's going to be great because our good friend Ken Goodrich is going to be the one who does the interview with you. And we're going to hit on some of your, you know, the past mob experiences, but we're going to hit a lot of the business experience because in the mob you've got the racketeers, you've got the gangsters. And Michael fell on the racketeering side of things and, and did, did a pretty decent job, which we're gonna walk through. But, you know, it was interesting because I think I read somewhere that Michael, next to Al Capone, you know, made the most money for the mob. Is that correct, Michael? Did I get that fact? That fact? Right.
- [06:26]
Michael Franzese
Well, listen, you know, there's, we don't keep statistics on that. That's what the media had said and, you know, that's what the law enforcement was saying about me at the time because, you know, the gas tax scheme that I created with another gentleman and we made a very significant amount of money. It was something new that, you know, people hadn't done before in that life. So, I mean, it was a lot of money. But you know, how do you measure it? You know, and Prohibition. Prohibition was a lot of money, too, but, you know, we're not in the drug business, so I would say that, you know, as far as a street, you know, crime or a street scam, it would dried up there. No. No question about it.
- [07:05]
Chris
And you were like. I think when you're on that list, on the list that came out, you were like, 30. Was you 38, 39, something like that?
- [07:12]
Michael Franzese
I was 35, actually. I was the youngest guy on the list.
- [07:14]
Chris
Yeah, that was crazy. And so you were part of it for, like, 20 years, from recruit to soldier to capo. Like, you went through that whole thing, and then. And I think I saw that you had a quick cameo in Goodfellas. Maybe you actually reported this not too long ago. It was quick. And that you were surprised because you and your wife went and watched it and you were like. And you were surprised when you watched it whenever you saw that little clip of yourself sitting along the bar side there, because you're like, hey, it wasn't.
- [07:43]
Michael Franzese
Even a. I didn't even have a clue. I had no idea that. That I was in that film. I had just gotten home from prison not too long before that, and we went to see the movie, and there I was. Well, at least my character. You know, I was surprised because that was a different crew. You know, we were the Colombos. That was the Lucchesis. I knew those guys really well, but I wasn't really involved business with them. But he. He throw me. And he said, you had name value. You knew all those guys, they talked about you. So I put you in there. So. All right.
- [08:12]
Chris
What a cool moment.
- [08:14]
Michael Franzese
Yeah.
- [08:14]
Chris
I mean, arguably, between that. The Godfather, like, I don't know which one was better. I think. Good fellows, but whatever. So. So let me jump into a few things. Um, you know, because I want this. You know, I told you I want. This will be a really entertaining podcast for a lot of our guests because I think a lot of people are interested in the. In the mob in general. And I think something that's great about you is you're kind of an open book. And I said, hey, man, is anything off limits? You said, nothing's off limits. And I appreciate that. So. But I still, you know, out of respect, said, hey, Michael, take a look at this list real quick. Let's make sure. Like, I didn't. I didn't overstep anyone. Yes.
- [08:48]
Michael Franzese
No.
- [08:49]
Chris
Okay, good. It's nothing. I have. I don't think I've ever heard you not asked before already. So I felt like I was pretty safe. I will say before I get into it though, I texted Michael this. I don't know if it was last night or the night before, but randomly, as we're going through this, you saw the big Paul Castellano's places for sale up in Staten Island. Little eighteen million dollar mansion. Man, if the walls could talk at that place.
- [09:09]
Michael Franzese
Oh, yeah. I mean, he used to hold court in that place. No question about it. And I'm sure it's, it's, you know, part of the rising value on it is because it was Castellano's place, you know. No doubt.
- [09:22]
Chris
Yeah, it's great. I, I looked through it because obvious, I'm naturally. I was curious to check it out, man. It's, you know, I mean, it's, well, it's massive. Long for one, but man, it's just cool. I mean, it's just like I said, if the walls could talk in that place, I don't know if I'd want to listen. No doubt. So, okay, let's jump into this because I know what a lot of, you know, what a lot of listeners are thinking or just anybody who's interested in the mob, right. And I have to, you know, everybody's probably main question, they want to know and they want to find out from you, Michael, because you were kind of, you understand this, you know, is, where in the hell is Jimmy Hoffa?
- [09:57]
Michael Franzese
Well, you know, I've been asked, you know, no matter where I go around the world, whenever I open it up for a Q and A, that's always one of the top questions. Where's Jimmy Hoffa buried? Even after all these years, I mean, I think he was, you know, he disappeared in the mid-70s. But I can tell you this, I really know, you know, there's certain things. You got some of the low level guys in that life that try to pump up their chest and they'll brag about certain things and you don't pay attention to a lot of that. But the guys that held positions there, positions of respect that I respected, you know, when they say things, you, you can pretty much rely on it because they're not bragging about it. I'll give you an example. My father told me this. He taught me. He says, son, if you and I were to commit a crime together, 10 seconds after that crime was committed, if you asked me about it, I'd say, what are you talking about? Those are the old timers. Those are the guys that you were. Those are the Carmine Persicos, Tony Salernos the chin. My dad and I know for a fact that the order for Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance came out of New York. I know where it came from, and I believe I know one of the shooters. As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive. And he's still alive. He's doing life in prison. He's still alive. He's never talked about it. I got wind of it through somebody that was doing time with him. It's a guy that I knew very well. And as a matter of fact, I'll tell you this. You might. He's not Italian. You talked about Ireland a little earlier. I'll leave it at that. But I'll tell you this. They're never going to find Jimmy Hoffa's body. It's never going to be found. And I can only tell you this. I believe it's wet. So you can. I think that's. That's on good information, but, you know, I can't give you any more specifics than that. I actually have a tape with. With all the information from this person, one of the shooters, and I've never released it because I can't verify it. I said, listen, until we know where the body is and the body could be found, it's just more speculation. And I'm not going to be accused of putting something out there just for the hype, you know.
- [12:06]
Chris
Yeah, I got you. No, that's fair. That's fair. Well, I think actually you gave quite a bit there, so that was pretty interesting.
- [12:12]
Michael Franzese
You can rely on that. You can rely on that.
- [12:15]
Chris
You got my wheel spinning, Irish. Okay, that was the new one. Okay, second one. This is a one I guarantee you get asked a lot, too, and is, you know, with. In regards to JFK, was the mob responsible for JFK's assassination?
- [12:32]
Michael Franzese
Okay, let me be clear. I just did a. I was on a panel with Piers Morgan and Pierce had two other gentlemen on there. One was an ex CIA agent or operative, and the other was somebody who had just studied, you know, the case. I can tell you this. This I know for a fact. I'll take it to my grave. I have no horse in this race. It doesn't do anything for me. There's no question that the mob was involved in the JFK hit. There's no question that Jack Ruby was associated with us both in Chicago and in Dallas. You know, he had mobbed. He was all mobbed up. No question. And I'm going to reveal this. I don't know what the cause was for Kennedy being killed. The government was involved in this. There's no question about it. He rubbed the wrong people the wrong way and they wanted him gone. They came to us like they did two other times during World War II. And then when they wanted to assassinate Castro, they came to us. Cil go to anybody that can do their bidding. They don't care. And they wanted us to help in cleaning it up. So Ruby's murder or assassination of Oswald was definitely a mob hit. Now why did we go along with it? Because we hated the Kennedys. They double crossed us. Joe Kennedy made a deal that if we delivered the state of Illinois to John F. Kennedy during the election with Nixon that the Justice Department would back off of us and not give us a hard time. They did just the opposite. Robert F. Kennedy did just the opposite. He came after us even harder. We hated the Kennedys and that's why we agreed to help. And that's the bottom line. Oswald is gone. He was never, if he ever weakened and wanted to say who put him up to it or how many shooters there really were, you know, he wasn't able to do that because of our work. When I say our, I'm talking past. I know It's, I was 12 years old when we got killed. So it wasn't that. But that you can bank on. And I will tell you this, I'm going to say it again. If those classified documents are revealed and they try to say in the documents that Ruby was not a mob associate, then you can throw the whole document out the window. That means they're covering up an airline. And that's, that's the, that will tell the tale for me because they've tried to say Ruby was not involved with the mob. Total lie. So you can click on, on. Good advice.
- [15:01]
Chris
Okay, so there's the key indicator. We'll just see what their, what their take is on, on Ruby. It'll be interesting. Hey you, you. I think I heard you say somewhere too that the, and this was, you know, during the election you had such great content because you were, you, you were pretty open about how you felt about the election. Republicans, Democrats, things like that. Is it fair to say that in regards to the, the parties that the Democratic Party was by far the easiest to manipulate?
- [15:31]
Michael Franzese
Without a doubt. I mean, and, and again, I was a Democrat back then, so I'm not knocking the Democrats. I was happy about it. Yeah. Yeah. Republicans were known as the law and order party. They were very, they were tough to get around. You know, look, I, I offered Republicans in control $2 million to get my father out of prison. And my father was framed on the case that he won. No doubt 100% he was framed. My dad might have been guilty of other things, but that particular case he was framed on. I couldn't buy a Republican and unfortunately I couldn't get to a Democrat that had the authority to be able to do that. But yeah, I mean, I got all my licenses for my gas business when we were defrauding the government, I was paying off Democrat and they would get me my licenses. They were just easier to corrupt back then. And that's the truth. And look at it now. What more do I have to say, you know?
- [16:24]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, kind of still reads true. So you said it a few times. And I want to make sure our listeners catch us. Let's go ahead and just segue into, you know, the, the gas scheme, which was like really the, the big business that you, you know, that you help, you know, create, build. And it was bringing in, you know, this money for the mob. And what's crazy about it is you were pre med man then you got pulled into the life, you know, So, I mean, I guess when you think about your dad, like, I can see how, but I just wonder, you know, how you end up pivoting to get into, you know, how you end up ended up in the life when you were a promising pre med guy.
- [16:58]
Michael Franzese
Well, you know, my father got a 50 year prison sentence when I was 19 years old. He was 50 years old when he went in in 1970. And to me, that was a death sentence. And my father said to me, I'm framed. I'm innocent. I'm not a bank robber. He was supposedly masterminded a nationwide string of bank robbers. It didn't fit my dad's profile at all. And that so many people have said that after the fact. And, you know, I said, dad, how am I going to help you going to school? We got to get to these witnesses. We need them. We need money. You know, I got to work this. I got to get with lawyers and investigators. I can't concentrate on a medical profession which is very intense. And Joe Colombo at that point kind of took me under his wing. I knew Joey all my life. My dad was his underboss. So I said, I'm not going to school. I got to help you out. And we had a meeting, you know, in the visiting room in Leavenwood Penitentiary when he proposed me for membership into the life as really as a tool or a method to try to help him get out of jail. And I did get him out after 10 years. You know, once I got inducted into that life, he kept going back on parole violations. But, you know, so that's why I entered the life. I didn't enter the life because I wanted to be a gangster all my life. I grew up in that world because my dad was extremely high profile, always under arrest, always getting, you know, he went to trial four times during my lifetime, you know, so I was, that was my life. But I didn't want, I wasn't looking that way. I wanted to be a doctor. I was an athlete. You know, it was a whole different life change for me.
- [18:29]
Chris
Yeah, and I mean, a significant pivot, but, you know, you did what you had to do and at the time, and so, you know, part of, of, you know, you kind of, you know, if you go on and you end up, you know, googling Michael's name and you'll kind of see the things he was involved in. I mean, it was between the racketeering, the loan sharking, extortion, but the defrauding the government of the gasoline taxes in the 80s. There's probably some people who are like, good for you, Michael, good for you.
- [18:56]
Michael Franzese
And listen, you know what, Chris? I'm going to be honest with you and I, because I always try to be honest with, you know, I mean, I speak a lot all over the world, you know that I'm going to be honest. I have no moral issue right now. And I'm a Christian. I'm, I'm strong in my faith. I have no moral issue with defrauding the government out of tax on gasoline because the government, they're stealing from us. They're wasting our money. I tell people all the time, you know, we didn't put this country $36 trillion in debt. We paid for, you know, our elected officials to manage our money properly and take care of our country properly. They were irresponsible, they became wealthy, they became rich, whatever. So I don't have a moral issue with it. I don't think it's sinful. It is illegal because they create the laws. So I won't do it because I'm not going to jeopardize my freedom, my family or anything else. But morally, I don't have an issue with it. I'll do better with the money than they will. So if I were to defraud them again, people will benefit from that. Not like we got today anyway. You know, I don't want, I don't want to pontificate or go on a rant but it drives me crazy, Chris, when I see, you know, the money that these people waste and how they become wealthy based upon not so much myself. Look, I'm, I'm okay. I do fine. You know, whatever the government does, I'm going to be all right. But some people break their backs to earn a living and they take tax money and, and, you know, estate taxes and death taxes and everything else and they just squander it. And it's wrong. We got to get a hold on it.
- [20:27]
Chris
Yeah, I mean, we're having, you know, our listener base is all blue collar, you know, home services companies, H vac on the electrical, like. Yeah. So I'm sure that they're probably over here, you know, cheering in their cars or in the gym or on their plane, wherever the hell they're at right now. Listen to this thing saying, listen, you know what?
- [20:41]
Michael Franzese
I believe we need to hold these people accountable. If we're giving you our hard earned money, you're taking in many cases a third of our money. Show us what you're spending on it and we should have a right to say yes or no. Some of these pet projects they have are just absurd. And it's hard earned taxpayer money. People sometimes working two jobs a week, trying to support their family, you know, their work, physically working with their hands out in the field. Many of your people that are watching this now, and it's just wrong. It's really wrong and something needs to be done about it. Hopefully this new administration is serious and really will let people know, you know, where their money is going and we get a hold on it. That's the whole thing.
- [21:20]
Chris
Yep, yep. It seems like it's off to a decent start, but we'll see, right? It's all, we'll see how it all shakes out. So, you know, again, because I don't want to go too far down all the business stuff as part of the gas scheme and things like that, because again, we're going to tackle that at Rhino X. And by the way, to our listeners who aren't attending Rhino X, we will roll that out as an episode so you will get to hear it at a later date. But, you know, at its peak, I think, Michael, you had said at its peak during this gas scheme, it was pulling in like 7,8 million bucks a week or something like that. Right. Is that, Did I get that number right? Somewhere around there.
- [21:52]
Michael Franzese
Yeah. You know, depending upon, you know, we were taking the tax on every gallon of gasoline. Back then it was $0.09 federal. Today it's 18. It was $0.09 federal and, you know, 25, 30 between state and local, depending upon where you were located. So you had close to 40 cents a gallon in many cases. So there was, you know, some, some clients we gave them, you know, we would take 20, 20 cents, you know, others we would take 30 cents. So it all depended. So we were going between 5, 8, $10 million a week in income because we were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month and taken down 25, 30, 40 cents a gal. Do the math. It was a lot of money.
- [22:34]
Chris
Good God. And I mean, how long did that, I mean, how long was that thing lasting? What was the duration of that?
- [22:39]
Michael Franzese
About seven years.
- [22:41]
Chris
Wow. It's incredible. So then, so then this is what, how it makes me, what makes me think of is I sit there and wonder what the hell was Michael's day to day? Like, you know, what was he doing? And, and, you know, I think as. As a, you know, as an owner of a business, you know, and having 300 plus, you know, employees, you think about leading these people. Leading people is hard enough when you're not in the mob. Like, you have some, you have people who are literally willing to like you. You feel, I think you heard, you say if you, if you're going into the mob, you have to be willing to kill. Like, you have to, right? So. So if you're leading these people like it's leading in chaos. I think the name that we're, I think what we're calling your. Your topic for Rhino X is Leaders Are Made is how it's going to be. But you had the lead in this incredibly hectic environment. Like, what did your, what was your dayto day? What were you doing? And like, how did you deal with just like, watching over your shoulder and wondering if somebody's out to get you. Like, I just can't imagine having to carry around that anxiety the entire time while you're building that thing.
- [23:45]
Michael Franzese
Well, you know, yeah, look, you know, I had to navigate the street, which is. Can be difficult. And I had, you know, very intense investigations on me. Understand, I was indicted seven times. I went to trial five times. I was arrested over 18 times. I had a bullseye on my back from day one because of my name and then because of what I, you know, accomplished. So I had to constantly navigate law enforcement's tactics against me. And, you know, I was a very aggressive guy, Chris. I mean, I had, you know, I had both legitimate and illegal things going on. Legitimate. I had two automobile dealerships. I had a Chevrolet and a Mazda Dealership. I had a big leasing company where we're leasing, you know, a lot of luxury cars. I had a couple of restaurants that I owned. I had a film production company and distribution company. So I was very entrepreneurial and very aggressive during that time. So what was my workday like? I. I was always an early riser until today. I'm a 5:36am Guy. And back then I was deeply indulged in, in the nightlife, because that's what we did, you know, I mean, I'd. I'd be out till 12, 1, 2 o'clock in the morning, go home three sleep, three hours, boom, have some breakfast with, with the family, and I'm gone. And I'd always come home for dinner, have dinner at home, and then go out again, 9, 10 o'clock. So that was my life. I had the energy for it. I was totally fixed on being the best possible mob guy that I could be. And I wanted to earn a lot of money. If I didn't have money in my pocket, I couldn't exist, you know, so it was just. I was very driven, I guess I would say. So, you know, you manage it. You know, I'll give you an example. About two years ago, I had this condition. They call it, you lose your beard a little bit. I don't know what the heck it was. I mean, it doesn't last. But. Alopecia, doctor, huh?
- [25:39]
Chris
Alopecia.
- [25:40]
Michael Franzese
Yeah, alopecia. I went to the doctor and he looked at it and he says, you know, this is normally caused by stress. Do you have a lot of stress? I say, doc, I don't know. I said, I. I lived one way my whole life. I don't know what stress is and what it isn't. This is just my life, you know, and he kind of laughed and, and that's my honest feeling. I don't know, you know, every once in a while, anxiety. But stress, I think I was just very fortunate. And I mean this because maybe it's. It's innate in you that I was able to handle stress.
- [26:12]
Chris
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, I actually can completely relate because sometimes I don't know, my wife will say, you're stressed out and I'm. And I'll say, I don't, I don't feel stressed out. Like maybe I just don't recognize what it is because I just power through. But I just wonder, you know, I mean, did you have to lead people like you were you. You had people out doing some of these, like, doing the work, like doing the work. For you. So you're having to lead these people. Like, what were you running this? Like, it was just a legit, like, hey, this is the business and these are my. This is my management team or this is my leadership team. And is. Is that kind of what a day, like part of your day looked like was you had. Did you have like meetings and like that around the business and stuff like that?
- [26:51]
Michael Franzese
Well, you got to understand something. You know, I had. I had. I had a number of made guys. When I was made a captain Kap, I had about 15 made guys that were under me that I had to manage.
- [27:03]
Chris
Got it?
- [27:04]
Michael Franzese
And these guys are always. Something's going on where you got to sit down with them and straighten it out and you know, who got involved in another family, whatever. So that's a big part of your life when you're a cap regime or captain in that family. I had to manage my own crew, you know, of. Of other guys, which I had a lot. Right. And then I had. Between gas and everything else, I had probably 300 guys under me, you know, working in our operation. So, yeah, you have to manage. And one thing I learned, I'm not good at everything. You know, people used to say to me, michael, you're a brilliant businessman. And I'm going to tell you, I'll be at your, you know, conference. There'll be a lot of people there that are a lot smarter than me. Business wise, no question. Very successful people. You've told me about it. I'm sure I could probably learn from them now. But I had a talent. I realized that I wasn't good in everything and mainly because I didn't want to be good at it. This doesn't work for me. I don't want to get involved in this. I don't want. So what did I do? My talent was this. I always had this motto, do what you do best. Delegate the rest. So I would find the right people to do the job. And then my job was to motivate them, give them the incentive to work hard for me so that they felt rewarded. And that's what I did. And I was a fairly good judge of people. I knew when somebody was doing right. Not, you know, and I kept myself to a pretty strict standard with the people that work for me. You know, I give them so much rope. But, you know, there's times where you have to part ways. Even when you like somebody, you know, even with family at times, you have to part ways. You know how it is. So brilliant businessman. No, but, you know, I Found out in life, it's so important to know how to manage people. Manage people. If you can, if you can accomplish that and have a little bit of a sense of business, I think you can go a long way.
- [28:57]
Chris
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, I've heard the, I've heard the. You delegate the things that you aren't as good at or that you don't want to do to people who are capable and do love to do those things. Like that makes total sense in scaling a business, in any business. So I'm gonna pivot for just a little bit because I know we're gonna run short on time, you know, and you know, in this world, you know, in your world, in that life, you know, you're literally leading people willing to kill, which is, that's a whole other layer to things too. But I would say one of the most infamous guys, and I don't remember, I might, I might mess up some of the facts on this one, but one of the most infamous guys in that world too is John Gotti. And you, you, what, you, what was your first like when you met John Gotti? Like, how was that first? Like, did you look at Gotti like the world looks at Gotti, you know, in regards to like, where he's at? I mean, the dapper Don. Did you, did you look at him the same way as like, you know, because he, he'll, he held himself in pretty high regard and so, so do the people. So the world, he almost is kind of like, you know, they're in New York for a little while. He was like a hero.
- [30:02]
Michael Franzese
Well, you know, understand something. You know, I respected John, but if you look up my father's history, my father was the John Gotti of his day. As far as media attention, law enforcement, investigation, as far as I'm concerned, I grew up with the best, you know, and my dad, my dad wasn't like John Gotti in the way he carried himself. My dad was different in that regard. I'm not saying better or worse, just different. Yep, he, his characterization was more appealing to me than John Gotti's and that's my father. So maybe I'm biased, but. So no, I didn't look up to any, I didn't look up to John in any awe or anything else. I respected him. I respected the fact that the life meant everything to him and he was a true stand up guy in that regard. I don't think he was the best boss out there. You know, you got to be honest, he didn't do a Lot of good for the family. I'm not saying he destroyed his family. I won't say that it was a RICO act that destroyed all of that life in a big way. But so, no, I just looked at him. He's another guy. He's going to be difficult to deal with because I know, you know, how he carries himself. And if I ever had to deal with him, I know I got to be on my toes because it's going to be rough. And in fact, it was because I had a couple of dealings with him in that regard. But, yeah, I mean, look, John was. They put himself out there, you know, the media made him out to be what he is. And what can I say? In the end, it didn't work out for him. You know, you cannot be that high profile in that life. You can't thumb your nose in the face of law enforcement. You just can't. You're not going to get away with it.
- [31:41]
Chris
Yeah, and Pete, let's say people would say that in. And, and I think that. I don't think it's true, but some people say he brought down, you know, he brought down the mob, which I think that you disagree with.
- [31:54]
Michael Franzese
Totally disagree.
- [31:56]
Chris
Yeah, that's what I, that's what I had thought. Now have. Now, knowing that, you know, that being a, you know, having to be willing to kill someone in, to be a part of the mob, you know, I didn't, I did not know that until you actually had said something to me or I think I saw you maybe say that in an article. But have you ever had to do that? Did you ever. Did you ever have to kill anybody?
- [32:17]
Michael Franzese
Well, listen, you know, it's. Obviously that's a tough question. Let's put it this way. I've never been charged with murder. Praise God for that. But look, I'm going to be honest because, you know, credibility is everything in this life. And I will say this. And if I were to come up and say to everybody whether it was true or not, let's make believe it's absolutely not, or let's say it's not true. I never did it. And I said I never did it. Nobody would believe me. I spent 20 years in that life. It's a very violent life. If you're part of the life, you're part of the violence. Now, am I saying I kill people? No, I'm not saying that. You're saying I saw my share of things in that life.
- [32:55]
Chris
Fair enough. I'll leave that be. It's just a question worth asking, though.
- [32:59]
Michael Franzese
Well, I always get asked that, too. It's one of the first questions.
- [33:02]
Chris
Well, you can all, like, listen, you don't get opportunities like this to have this kind of a conversation, you know.
- [33:07]
Michael Franzese
You know what, Chris? Let me ask you, and I don't mean this for you. I thought of this in general, and sometimes when I get the question, I ask my audience. I said, if I was a military guy, and you would. And I just gave a speech and I was, you know, and I fought in the war in Iraq, would somebody get up and say, how many guys did you kill in Iraq? Most likely not. You know, Most likely not because, well, it's a justified killing. You're, you know, you're. You're in the army and you're defending yourself, but murder is murder, you know, in a way. So. And I'm not justifying it. Please, people, don't get me wrong. I'm not justifying. What I'm saying is, when it comes to the mob life, people are fascinated with that. And it was always like, wow, that's. It's really something people are fascinated with. And I get it. I get it. Don't get me wrong.
- [33:52]
Chris
It's an interesting question, and I think one that people think but don't want to ask. And I was like, I certainly got to ask the question.
- [33:57]
Michael Franzese
Well, no, that's. Hey, your job is to. Is to get it out there, so you're doing a good job.
- [34:03]
Chris
Hey, so, okay, so real quick, so when you got, like, this is something, I wonder too, because, you know, now you have your, Your pizza business license, I think is the name of the pizza business. You have your Francis Wines, like, you're doing some. You have. Doing a lot of legit stuff and kind of building your, you know, your exit, you know, your, Your retirement, whatever you want to call it. But, But I gotta know, like, when you're, when you are in the scheme and this thing is doing 8, 9, $10 million a week, that's a. I mean, that's a lot of money in the 80s. That's monster money. And you go, you know, and you're gone for, you know, you're in the life for 20 years. You're in prison. You come out, tell me in some of those shell accounts, you were able to. To keep some of that stuff back somewhere to help a little bit once you got jail.
- [34:48]
Michael Franzese
Well, listen, I'll tell you this. The government actually hired private investigators to try to track down what they believe I had in foreign accounts. And listen, all I can tell you is this. If it's out there. I don't know if I'll ever get a chance to use it, but we'll see what happens. That's all. You know, we had a lot of money. I mean, you know, and then, look, we. We put money in different places at the time. You know, we were. We were wiring up. We had relationships with banks. My. My partner was very good in establishing those relationships. So. But look, they took me for a lot, too. I mean, I had a $15 million restitution. I lost. Yeah. 5 million in forfeitures. I had a plane and a helicopter they took. I had property. So they got a lot out of me. So they got enough, let's put it that way.
- [35:38]
Chris
Could you do something similar today? Like, you feel like no problem. I could do. I could get this figured out today. Again, not saying you would, Michael. I'm just saying in general.
- [35:46]
Michael Franzese
Well, listen, you know, the laws have changed, you know, as there's different collection methods that the government has now. But you know what? I have found that the government is pretty easy to get something over. You know, for a period of time, we had a complicated but simple mechanism to keep the government from understanding what we did. And I'll tell you how bad it was. You know, about maybe four years into this operation in my Mazda dealership, two FBI agents came to see me. They said, we need to talk to you. So I walked outside. What do you guys want? Just tell us what you're doing. We know what you're doing. We can't figure it out. We're being honest with you. Tell us what you're doing, we'll give you a pass. We just gotta stop it. I said, yeah, guys, I was born in the morning, not yesterday morning. You give me a pass on what you know. I said, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I said, you want to buy a car? I'll give you a break on a car. Go in the showroom, look at it. I gotta tell you, Chris, they got so upset with me. We're giving you a chance and you won't tell. I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I go to the gas station, I fill up my car. What are you talking about? You know, they got so mad at me that day, and they walked out. You know, we're giving you a chance. Hey, go investigate, you know, don't give me a chance. I mean, listen, they couldn't figure it out. We were always one step ahead of them.
- [37:15]
Chris
Yeah, well, your dad taught you that. What are you talking about? So it's interesting on how you got those. Like, maybe, I think, I don't remember if it was one or two of those car dealerships. That was an interesting story. I think I heard you talking about.
- [37:33]
Michael Franzese
Say that again.
- [37:35]
Chris
On how, like, I think. Was it some of the. On how you acquired one of those or a couple of those dealerships?
- [37:43]
Michael Franzese
Oh, no, they were, they were legit. Oh, were they?
- [37:46]
Chris
Okay.
- [37:46]
Michael Franzese
Oh, yeah, no, they were legit. Well. Well, let me put it this way. There was a Mazda agency, totally. I took that agency over. When you couldn't give a Mazda away because the Wankel engines were, were, were breaking down and nobody wanted Mazda, I took it and we became the, the biggest agency on, on all of New York. You know, I won a couple of sales contests, took me to Japan, the whole thing. But my Chevrolet and I sold that. You know, I ran it for about 12, 13 years, then sold it. My Chevrolet agency, I'll be honest. There was a guy, the owner was a degenerate gambler. He was very, very deep in debt to one of my bookmakers. And we took over the Rumplick Chevrolet and we allowed him to work there. I said, you can stay and work and work off the debt, but the agency is mine. And that's how I got it. And I didn't have. I didn't have a record then, so Chevrolet approved me. I didn't have a problem. But that's how I got the agency.
- [38:43]
Chris
I thought I heard that somewhere.
- [38:46]
Michael Franzese
You're right on.
- [38:47]
Chris
That's a hell way to get. To get started to learn. I'm gonna wrap this thing up pretty quick because I know you gotta jump, Michael. And I'm just gonna do like a little. A little. A couple speed questions for you to, you know, to close this thing off. Okay, sure. And these are maybe some more like the current, you know, current things. You know, you're over in. I think you're. You live over in Newport, somewhere around.
- [39:09]
Michael Franzese
There, I think California.
- [39:11]
Chris
So. So in your opinion, you know, all these LA fires, you know, I'm curious to see what your theory is on this, but is this a. You think this is a land grab?
- [39:20]
Michael Franzese
You know, I mean, I've heard some things. I actually interviewed somebody who, who believed that there was a terrorist tie to the. You know, and he's a guy that's credible, there's no question. And his theory and information that he had made sense. So I don't think it's an option that should not be considered. We know we have terrorist cells in this country, without a doubt. I mean, Christopher Wray, the head of the FBI, warned us, something can happen. It's imminent. He said it's going to happen. Was the fires one of that? I don't know. Here's what I do know. We have fires every single year in California. It's not surprise. The horrible thing about it was that this government is not prepared. And it happens every year, and they're devastating every year and they're not prepared. Total breakdown in government. That's inconceivable and unforgivable. So we still might have had the fire. Whether it be started by natural causes, I believe it's arson. I believe these. The cause of these fires, if not every year, has to be arson. It has to be. It just. Fires don't happen out of nowhere. Oh, an electrical wire was coming. Come on. Not every year. Something has to happen. And the way our government handled it was just. It was just horrible. The destruction was a lot worse than it should have been because there was no water in the fire hydrants. The reservoir was empty. The brush had never been cleared up, which adds to, you know, the dynamic of the fire. They knew about it. They didn't do anything about it. It's terrible.
- [40:57]
Chris
Just so happens that it was ridiculously windy at the same time.
- [41:01]
Michael Franzese
Yes. It didn't help. Didn't help at all. And we didn't. We've had a, you know, kind of a dry spell for here for a couple of months, so that didn't help. It's raining today. You know, we. We need the rain. But, you know, it was just. It was terrible. Very unfortunate, very sad. So many people lost. So much had been displaced. You know, hopefully we, we. We get on the ball here and we don't allow things to happen like this to get so totally out of control that people are devastated.
- [41:30]
Chris
Yeah, yeah. It is awful. It is awful. I know some folks that were there, too.
- [41:33]
Michael Franzese
I just realized, hey, I gotta tell you that Palos Verdes, a beautiful area, The. The coastline of Paris Verde, whereas there are a number of homes, is sinking by four inches a year. That's a lot. Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Was it four inches a week? It couldn't be four inches a week. It would be in the ocean already. It might have been four inches a month. It was. I got so crazy when I saw it. I don't remember was a year, a month. Hopefully not a week. But, you know, I don't know what you could do. To avoid. I don't know. You know, these homes are built right on the coast. It's terrible. I don't know.
- [42:08]
Chris
I don't either. I was just interested to hear what your theory was on all that, too. And I did hear something like that. Plus there's all the mudslides and things that the concern was happening with. So. So I'll pivot to the next one real quick. And this one's not, like, current, but it's. It was close enough. Did. Do you believe that Epstein hung himself?
- [42:28]
Michael Franzese
Absolutely not. That's. That's ridiculous. He did not hang himself. I was in that cell, the same tier. There's absolutely no way that he could have hung himself. I've said that. I think one of the people that did the autopsy backed me up. There's no way he could have done it. The cameras, the guards. Let me tell you something. When I was on that tier and in those cells, when I had to use the restroom, I would tell the guys, will you take a walk? I know you're standing, but I just want some privacy. They're always there. They're always there. It's.
- [43:03]
Chris
It's.
- [43:04]
Michael Franzese
It's absolutely absurd to think that he would have committed suicide. Absolutely.
- [43:09]
Chris
I've heard some crazy theories around that. Just around. There's some. Some, like, blackmailing, that maybe there was some blackmailing involved, that he was used for a different way. It was crazy. That's a whole different. Different thing. But this is my last one. This is my last one. I know you gotta go. And it's. It's on these, you know, we just switched over presidents. And, and by the way, I'm not sitting here, like, I'm just. I'm just talking about current stuff, but this whole, you know, pardon of Fauci and, And Hunter Biden and all these, like, how did that sit with you? Like, what is that? Like, I'm just curious. How did that sit with you?
- [43:44]
Michael Franzese
You know, Chris, hopefully people that don't understand this is not political bias on my end.
- [43:49]
Chris
That's all I'm saying.
- [43:50]
Michael Franzese
You know a lot of people. Well, you're. You're a Trump supporter. I'm a Trump agenda supporter. If his agenda was hurting the United States or hurting us on the world scene, I would say it. I like his policies and his gender, for the most part. So this is not politics in my mind. When people lie to you once, ah, okay. You give them a pass. You straighten it out. It happens. We're all human. Second time, is this going to be a pattern? I'm getting a little leery now. Okay, you hold that person again. Third time. Hey, I'm done. That's it. Finished. This administration, prior administration, had lied to us every single day consistently about very serious things that hurt my country, hurt my neighbors, hurt people. I'm done with them. There's no redemption when you consistently lie over a period of time and people get hurt. We've seen it at the southern border, you know. Oh, we have a secure border. No, we don't. We never did. We know that Fauci lied to us consistently. He lied to us about Wuhan. He lied to us about the efficiency of masks. He lied to us about the six foot apart. He lied to us about the, the vaccine. This is a vaccination. This is a pandemic of the non vaccinated. That was from our president. Former president. President, totally lie. And you know what happened? Okay? People lie in politics. It's still lying and we shouldn't forgive it. But here's the worst part. People died as a result of this. They died. Hundreds of thousands of people died between Fauci's work, this past administration. What happened at the border, they've got blood on their hands. And you know what, Chris? That's how I look at it. I met some pretty rough guys on the street, mob guys. But they didn't take an oath to protect the country. They weren't voted in for the benefit of the country and for the people that elected them. They were criminals doing the wrong thing. Okay? They didn't misplace trust. These people that misplaced trust, I don't care who they are, they need to be held accountable because people suffer and, and die. Do you know how many people I know in New York who lost their loved ones because of COVID and weren't even able to go in and say goodbye to them? These people are destroyed. For the rest, they're destroyed. They, they have nightmares at night. They tell me because they couldn't hold the hand of the person they love. Their whole. Their mothers, their sisters, their brothers, their cousins. This was horrible. And it was a lie. I, I, I look, as a Christian, I forgive. I don't want to see anybody go to hell. What? I want to see them. Hey, come forward. Repent. Redeem yourself and hold them accountable so nothing like this could ever happen again. It was just, it's terrible. Chris Fauci, to give a guy like that an unconditional pardon for anything known or on a preemptive pardon, known or unknown, it's unheard of. But he's guilty. That's why they did it for Biden to give his family preemptive pardons, known or unknown, going back 11 years for both of these people. Unheard of. Never been done before. But why? Because there's guilt. You've just admitted to it. The evidence that's been brought out on all of this, we're seeing it all now. You're guilty. So what do you do? Do you hold these people accountable so it never happens again? You destroyed lives. I know, I'm pontificating, but I take this passionately. And you know what? I didn't even. Fortunately, nobody in my family lost their life as a result of any of this, or I don't know how I'd feel. But this stuff has to stop, Chris. You know, we have to get a hold. We have a runaway government and we gotta get a hold on it.
- [47:47]
Chris
Yep. Yep. I appreciate you and, you know, just kind of going down that path. And I remember, I think hearing you talk about it and just hearing like the raw emotion that you, you know, you would, you talked about it, which is why I wanted to ask you that. That question. I feel very, I feel very much the same. It's just the overall devastation it causes is, is the major issue here. And if we do nothing about it, then we're worse off. So we have to use it and do something good with it. Which is, which is really what you've kind of done with your life post prison, with your redemption, you know, and your reformation and kind of going out and kind of ending so much good. That's what I hope kind of comes with this new, you know, regime and that, you know, to your point, working Trump's plan. So listen, I'm really excited for you to come to Rhino X Michael here and, you know, in, in just a bit and, and to dig more into the business side of the things that you had done. And you're going to really love getting to know Ken Goodrich who's going to interview you. I told you a little bit about him and his business, you know, out there in Vegas and in our world. He's like a, you know, one of our godfathers in, in the home services world for these blue collar businesses. He's excited to meet you. And, you know, I, we talked a little bit about, you know, our conversation. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing, you know, some of the stories and being open with this, Michael. And then, you know, I, like I said, everybody's in for a real treat that's coming around. I actually get to. To get to meet you and. And get to talk to you.
- [49:06]
Michael Franzese
Well, Chris, I appreciate it, and I'm sure I'll learn something and hopefully I can teach people something because, look, business is business. Whether you do it on the street, you do it legally, you know, you. Certain things that make you successful and, and there's, you know, just certain, certain things that you have to do. Right. Let's put it this way. So I'm excited to share that. I'm sure it'll be something different than they've heard before. I'm also excited to hear what everybody else had to say. I'm sure we'll do a Q and A, and whatever, you know, wisdom I can impart, I'm happy to do it. So thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
- [49:41]
Chris
That's right. Thanks, Michael. We'll see. I appreciate your time.
- [49:44]
Michael Franzese
All right, Chris, thank you.
- [49:45]
Chris
All right, take care.