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To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
HVAC Search Volume Is Down, Here Is How To Succeed In Today’s Economy
00:57:25
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A
Is if you're just looking at raw ROI on marketing campaigns, you're only getting kind of half the picture, right? It's. If you've got one that's low, it may not be that the marketing campaign sucks. It may mean that, well, we're having trouble really booking this type of lead. Like, why is that? Where is it the type of customer is it? You know, like, one prime example for us is like a pay per click install lead versus Facebook install lead. Like, we look at conversion rate roi. Are we able to book these calls? How often are they canceling? So Facebook, as you can expect, you get a lot of tire kickers, right? It's like, hey, just checking this out, whatever it is. Well, we see our conversion rates really low in that. And it bounces around a little bit depending on a number of things.
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B
This is to the Point a Rhino experience voted one of the top home.
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A
Services, marketing and operations podcasts.
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B
Cutting through the and getting to the point. What's up to the Point listeners, it's your boy Chris and my main man, Chatty P in the place to be looking at me. Welcome, buddy. Happy New Year.
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A
Yeah, Happy New Year. We're a couple weeks. What are we a couple weeks in?
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B
Yeah, yeah. Full weekend. That's right. Halfway through this bad boy. And for the races. You know, it seems a little weird, the timing for me, because I spent, you know, the last week I was in French Polynesia out in Bora Bora. I know.
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A
I was jealous. I kept seeing some pictures and this, that and the other.
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B
Yeah, it was pretty cool. Tommy, you know, proposed to Bri and they got engaged. That was great. Now it's a good time, man. It's a good trip. I would say that I've never kicked off a year with the vacation. That might be a new tradition for me. That was pretty good.
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A
Yeah. Because you usually talk about your. Your week between Christmas, New Year's is your lot. When did you guys leave after the new year?
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B
Yeah, we left like, I think it was the fourth.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah, the fourth. So I still had that, like, little time frame there, but. Yeah. But my sister ended up flying in from, you know, up from Zionzo, and so she flew in with my niece and nephew and they stayed for a few days, which kind of threw a wrench in my things, but I still got a few days to kind of get my together, so I'm feeling pretty good about it. And of course, you know, when you go on vacation with Tommy, you know, we're talking a little bit of business, so. Yeah, we had a good time, man. I'm ready after it, man. I know this is a big year for. For all of us. I'm excited for it.
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A
Yeah. No time like the present.
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B
That's right. It's go time, Manny. It's go time. This is gonna be. I know. So much great happening across so many people. Like, I'm excited. This is gonna be an epic year. I'm looking forward to it.
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A
Yep. Me as well.
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B
Yeah. And Rhino X is, you know, it's coming up soon, baby. It's close.
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A
It is. I was actually, weirdly enough, just before this was getting all my travel in order, so I believe that I'm ready to go. I'm going to be down at Atlanta the first part of that week with a little peer group action, and then flying from there to Phoenix.
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B
Opie down. I hope the weather's great this year.
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A
We all know what it was like two years ago when I had to use a blanket at dinner.
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B
By the way, who would know those blankets are going to be such a hit because now we have a big box of them at the house. And the.
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A
Crushed it. Crushed it. I'm sure that was Anna's idea.
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B
It was.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Of course. This year's gonna be exciting, man. I'm really looking forward to it. It's the greatest showman theme. Are you the greatest showman in your market? And, you know, it's always so freaking hard to, like, top the previous year because I'm always trying to go above and beyond and have it. Saban. Last year, it was cool, and we had Flow Rider dude, you know, I know you love that. Yeah, I got a couple hands from Chad, a little, you know, little waves. But, you know, this year is going to be. I mean, it's just. It's different, and it's going to be really, really good. So I'm excited for it. I'm excited for everybody that's listening to this podcast. Hopefully you guys are already off to the. A great start of the year, and you're kind of on fire, you know, and going after whatever goals you got in place or monthly goals. You know, Chad and I just had our. Our first. I mean, our first update on, you know, how our roofing company is doing, you know, so that was exciting to kind of get a little update on. On the Eden progress and seeing how the winner is going to fare for a roofing business in the Midwest.
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A
We sold some insulation.
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B
We sold some insulation.
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A
We're ready to roll.
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B
So, hey, here's what I want to do this year. Okay, this may be good or maybe a bust, but we're going to give it a try. So I got a gift from Berkeley from my daughter, and it was, you know, dad jokes, because, you know, I have a lot of dad jokes. I think they're pretty good, but apparently the rest of the family does not. So I thought, as I'm tearing off my little calendar, Chad, right here, this little paper is my calendar. You know, it gives me a dad joke. Now, I don't know if it's pathetic that I know every single one that I've torn off so far in the 15 months or I don't know, but I'm gonna read off a couple of them for you. I know how much you appreciate my jokes, you know, from our Christmas jokes. You know, it's funny. I actually had some people reach out to me about the Christmas jokes. I thought it was funny. So thank you people for responding to me and making give some love on that. But I'm gonna start off with three. Three jokes. Okay? To kick this sucker off. Are you ready?
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A
Let's do it.
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B
Okay, numero uno. For those of you that speak English, that means number one. First one is, did you hear about the restaurant on the moon? I did not. You did not? Oh, well, you know, they've got great food, but no atmosphere. It's good. Go share that one with Emily. She'll love it.
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A
That should be good. Yeah, I'm not going to try that.
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B
Okay, then maybe number two will work for you then. Why do mushrooms get invited to all the parties?
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A
I don't know.
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B
Because they're such fun. Guys, we got a little chuckle. All right, A little chuckle.
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A
Oh, boy.
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B
And the third one. Okay. And then we'll actually get into something that's meaningful. What time did the man go to the dentist? I don't know. Tooth hurt. D. That is not a wampap. That was a good Joe. Tooth hurty. Come on. Okay, thanks, Chad. Appreciate you, buddy. Appreciate your support on that.
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A
Can't wait to thank Berkeley for that little treat.
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B
Hey, to the point listeners. You can thank my daughter Berkeley for that. Okay, moving on. Okay, so this episode is going to be myself and Chad, and we're going to talk about a particular topic. And actually, this stems from. He and I've done a couple of these podcasts where sh. He and I talked about different topics that had really great results, Chad. Really great results. I love when I can go back and look at the data from who's listening to podcasts and when they drop off and we actually Have a pretty good staying power on our solo episodes. So kudos to us. Yeah, it's pretty good, man.
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A
I like it. Hey, anytime we can provide a little bit of value.
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B
What's the game?
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A
That's always good.
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B
That's the game.
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C
Sorry for the interruption. To the point listeners, have you heard of Rilla? Are you using Rilla yet? If not, are you for that? Rilla is the leading speech analytics software for the trades. It is on a mission to bring physical ride alongs to an end. You can coach your reps with virtual ride alongs now that are a hundred times better, faster and much more efficient than the physical ones. All you got to do is use the Killa Rilla.
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B
That's R I L L A L so this one in particular, I figured it's good timing is going to be around it this, you know, it's in the home services space. I don't think it's a big secret, but in case you missed a couple more episodes, you know, overall search volume from a, you know, a marketing perspective, overall search volume, you know, has dipped. It's not some seasonal slow, it's just, you know, it's just that there's lower search volume, you know, and, and that means it's lower search volume for everybody. So good news, it's not just you listener, it's everyone who does the same thing, you know, but even though search volume is down, there are plenty of companies that are being successful with that, right? So I thought, well, what are they doing? You know, and so, you know, we'll have Chad just reference all the different things that he's doing plus the, you know, what we hear. Because Chad gets to meet with a lot of different contractors who has different, um, you know, through the different events that you have at Peterman Brothers. And just, you know, he knows a lot of people like I know a lot of people and we hear all the different things. So I thought why not? Let's like, let's just share some of the things that you like. If you and me are sitting around chit chatting about this, let's just talk through like some of the things and let's share it with the listeners. And that was the thought for this episode is what can we give you to help you capitalize on business even when if you're over the top relying on, you know, Internet marketing. Well, this is your chance to make a pivot and this is applicable to everybody by the way. Okay, so we'll just jump into it. And I thought what I would do is I Went, you know, from my perspective. And then Chad, you can just chime in on from your perspective is, you know, what else can people be doing or focusing on that is irrelevant of search volume? So you're not so dependent upon it. So this is a good thing, right? This gives you a chance to maybe get back to trying some things you've not tried for or paying attention to things. And again, Chad and I have done some one off episodes on some of these things that we'll talk about that you could go back and research. Maybe we can drop it in the show notes as well, some things that we're referencing so you can go back and listen to those podcasts. But the first thing is like just because. And I'll go ahead and kick this thing off, Chad. And again, just chime in. I'm going to start with leveraging paid advertising. Just because search volume is down doesn't mean there isn't any. So Chad, did you say, oh shit, search volume's down. Better do something different.
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A
Yeah, I mean I think it's looking at, you know, digital is in my mind, you know, and you're seeing it with all the PE groups. That's why to me it's gotten more competitive, it's gotten, you know, more expensive, is there's a lot more people fishing in that pond. What we have noticed is that you still have to keep. I think it's very easy. As search volume gets lower, you're maybe not seeing as many leads. It's like, well, where do I cut? What marketing channels do I cut? And oftentimes the first ones that we look at are the ones we can't track. Right. It's like, well, is that really working? Like, you know, is it, is it not? But I think you can use your digital since you can track it. I think we use it to kind of gauge how our other stuff is working. So just recently, prime example, we shifted some of our TV spend into a different like time block. Same stations, just a different time block. We were like, hey, we want to capture a different audience. Like surely the people from. I'm just making up times here. But like the surely the people from 7am to 9am they know who we are. Like we don't need to be in front of them anymore. And what we saw when we shifted, that is we saw volume like our digital organic traffic. Not so much the paid, but like organic leads like that we can still track. We saw those dip and we're like, oh, we need to maybe move this back. And so we shifted it Back, and then the volume pops right back up. And so I think it's important to not just go cut things that you can't track, but looking at how your marketing is all playing off of each other. And I think that goes back to the, you know, the soapbox that you've been on for a long time is that brand matters. And some of those TV spots that you can't directly attribute to a lead are oftentimes, you know, the first point of entry, they saw you on tv. And I'm just using TV as an example because it, you know, just happened. But, you know, radio, whatever it may be, billboards, if that works for you, you know, different things like that, that's going to be. Typically, they're not calling the number on the TV or the truck or the whatever they're going to Google. They're typing in your name and then they're finding you. So I think that's the important piece, I think as a takeaway that we've been learning on is, you know, being very careful at how we shift and move our branding pieces and being not so eager to cut those because we can't track them. Type thing.
- [12:43]
B
Yeah. I think what was good that you did, though, was you did try something different. Yep. And then you were like, oh, okay, better move it back. And then you got that affirmation because when you shifted it back to the time frame, you saw that it picked back up. So that's a pretty good indicator because, you know, it is a lead. Attribution to traditional can be difficult. Right. Like, what's last touch attribution? So, but you still try to. And. But did you cut back, like. Well, I want you to tell the listeners, in addition to that is in regards to, like, your paid spin, it's like, just because search volume was low or maybe it's getting a little bit more expensive. It is getting more expensive. You know that you still gotta. You still can do things. Like, you can still do something. You just might want to be a little bit more, you know, targeted or direct with what you're trying to do. And maybe that's based on how you perform on service versus install versus drain cleaning versus whatever it is that you do. But what that all boils down to and what Chad was talking about, and this is something that he and I, you know, talk about a lot. Is this shit's trackable? Like, why are we guessing anymore? Like, just track it. Find the channel that's working the best, even though it's getting more expensive. Just keep in mind it's getting more expensive for everybody too.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then find the channel that works for you.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest thing. It's like. Yeah. Just because it's getting more expensive. Yeah. In a perfect world I would take all of my spend off of Google and fight. Well, I don't know what those other channels are exactly. You know, there's things that work, but I mean we're constantly, I think I actually posed this question to the group a week or so ago of like, what's the ROI you're okay with? And then when it drops below a certain threshold, do you say, you know, I'm going to give this one more month, but we're going to keep an eye on this because it's not getting the ROI that I want. Our digital, especially paid digital, the ROI is still really high. So to your point, just because the volume is lower doesn't mean that there's not leads out there.
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B
Right. You know, and I also think it's a good time when you can start trying new shit. Right? Like you can get creative and especially in like the social space. And we saw like a major shift in social. You mean expect. I mean not even just last year, like going into last year we saw that shift because I, I know you took advantage of a lot of those low cost social leads early on and then you saw the shift happen with it. But they're still me, they're still meat on the bone. You know, the whole TikTok band thing that's been coming up that I've been, you know, trying to pay attention to is we've not even traditionally done much with TikTok as at Rhino, but we don't do anything with our customer base like with the contractors. But what if you are doing something, it's something that you're relying. I do think it's a great channel by the way. Like I really do. I wish we could do that for contractors. But here's the point I'm getting to with it. If it gets banned, whatever, there's a lot of other platforms out there that you could still go and provide on because guess what if it gets banned for you, gets banned for everybody.
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A
Yeah, well, and I think too, you know, when you talk about doing new stuff, one thing that I'm really focused on this year and there's a lot of cool softwares out there that can help with this is, and we've talked about this before and I feel like it's been something that's been out there, but is the personal brand. You know, for me, it's really easy because my face is on the side of the damn truck. So. But, you know, when I look at, from a branding perspective, I think a lot of people in a, in a B2C environment don't look at LinkedIn as a, you know, means of branding. What I have seen and what kind of turned me onto this was I had like comfort advisors calling me, going, hey, this customer just bought this system because they listened to your podcast. And I'm like, okay, well that's cool. But like, and it's neat. But then it was like, okay, let's dig a little deeper. Like, what is it about? What we were talking about resonated with them and said, hey, this is the company I should go with. And I think it's so easy. I mean, you look at LinkedIn like you can, you know, putting content out there that shows who you are. And if you're the leader of the business, well, then I don't talk about furnaces on LinkedIn. I'm not trying to sell a $83 drain clearing. Um, but I'm just talking about the culture that we have, the people that we are, who we, what we stand for. All of those things, I think is, is something I'm really leaning into this year, mainly because of the success that I had on just with the podcast stuff. But, like, it's, how do you get more information out there? Well, there's a lot of people on LinkedIn. While it may be a professional network, they all go home and if they see your stuff, they're going to call at some point. And what we have found is that we perform. And if you're a, you know, hey, we're a premium service, different stuff like that. The people that are on LinkedIn, they understand the, you know, premium service, like, hey, I want to, I get what I pay for. Different things like that. So it's an audience that we're really leaning into this year to see if we can get some traction.
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B
I completely agree. That's great advice. I was, I'm going to name drop for just a second, but there's a point to it. So I was texting with Gary Vaynerchuk last week and I was asking him for his advice. It started with the tick tock conversation, but I was asking for his, his advice on like the top, you know, 10 platforms should we be focusing on? And he kind of went to a seven platform thing. He always tells me, but LinkedIn is one that he's still super heavy on like super heavy on that. You should be going after that. A lot of people are still, you know, for whatever reason aren't getting on board with it, like the majority. So there's so much meat on, on that bone.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So there's a good opportunity. Like it's, I mean he has, you know, see Google still up there, Instagram's still up there. Snap. Like, I don't even have Snapchat.
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A
I don't.
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B
Yeah, I don't have Chap. Snap.
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A
Yeah. I had a flip phone in high school, so I, I don't, I don't know what.
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B
Well, I had a pager, so I got. Also known as a beeper for those who know, they know. Amazon, YouTube, LinkedIn, Pinterest, Facebook. Actually Facebook was like way down. Way, way, way, way down.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Interesting.
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A
And I'm not a big social media guy, but I feel like LinkedIn is like there's. You look at all of them. Like there's so much just garbage on a lot of those things that like, I just feel like you can LinkedIn, you can kind of cut through and have like professional conversation and like talk about business and different things like that. And I think that's. Hopefully we'll find out. I'll let you know when we do this episode at the end of the year, if it worked or if we feel like it's working and there again, it may not be measurable, but that's okay. Like if you can get some traction, you may not be able to measure it, but it's also free to use. So just put it out there and connect with people and different things like that.
- [19:23]
B
Yeah. You know what's interesting is when we did our year end review with Redbird Roofing, we talked about bringing in house. I mean, keep my listeners like this company's not. Is just under a year old still. Like we're just in the beginning phase of this thing and we did it, you know, we did heavy like branding this past year. But one of the key positions that we talked about doing that, I think Chad and his brother and like the Pierman brothers in general has done well, is you brought in like when you bring that marketing person in house who kind of can go out and do grassroots stuff for you, like that's a great spot. And that person can also be the one who's posting stuff for you. And if you want to build a personal brand, you're comfortable giving them your personal stuff and they can go and do posts for you. Like these are things that like now's a Good time to. To give that a shot. And. And Chad does a great job of posting on. On LinkedIn and he's got his Monday, you know, emails that go out and I read them and sometimes I copy them and make them my own and just a couple words. So thank you, Chad. Um, so. Okay, is that news to. Hey. So anybody's listening right now? Some of those that don't look like they came from me. You're probably right. That are on my team. But I mean, the point is, is like, now's the chance, like, go and, you know, try stuff out elsewhere. It's not like you got to do it all year long, you know, but find somebody who can do some grassroots stuff for you. Another simple part of this too is. And this will always be. And I don't know when this ever changes, but, man, like, do whatever you gotta do to go get reviews and make make sure you're paying close attention to your reputation. But reviews are always gonna. And across all platforms. Like, I was just talking to Tommy about this on. When we were in Bora Bora, and he was going off on a tangent around this is at breakfast. And if you've met Tommy, you know, he's got an incredibly loud voice. And so when him and my wife Anna are talking, it's like, who can be louder? So the entire place that we have breakfast in knows about reviews and the importance of reviews. It was uncomfortable, but you know that those can make or break you. No matter how good things are going, like, from a marketing perspective, you know, people are still looking at reviews that, that sucker drops below a four, you're in deep. So make sure that you're. You're staying on top of reviews and constantly getting them, you know, and there's different ways you can go about it. I think another thing I'm going to pivot just for a second is just build a strong referral program. Right. And I'm sure you guys have done some of those things internally and I've heard, and I love when I hear our group talk about the difficulties, things that they're doing. But I mean, a referral is like the best lead. If the. You get a referral that's like the best customers to get because your cost per lead was what. Yeah, so. And the close ratio is always, you know, high. And like, usually it's a, you know, you've already kind of got some trust. But, like, build a good referral program instead of, you know, what are you guys doing in that, like, in that world. And I, I don't know if you do something, do you do something with your customers or. Or do you do something with your staff? You're doing both. Like, is there a variable that you're. That you're doing to, you know, build a strong referral program?
- [22:21]
A
Yeah. So I think this is something that we're not great at and working to get better. I think the biggest thing that has always been kind of that roadblock has been how do you track it. And, you know, there's. I've been doing a lot of investigation over the last couple of months, and there are some really cool things out there. They're very young softwares, but things that you can use for, whether it be cross selling across different trade. I kind of look at that as a referral. If a plumber sets up an electrical lead, then to me, that's a referral type thing, depending on how you classify it. But, yeah, there's a ton of great things. We're looking at a few different ones right now. But, yeah, they're out there. And I think if you can track it and it's easy to do, or if you're smaller, it may just be as simple as a spreadsheet, you know, I mean, but as you get bigger, obviously it gets more complicated. But yeah, I think that there's. There's a lot of kind of. To me, I look at that as kind of the gorilla side of marketing. You know, building relationships, whether it's a B and I group or, you know, community this, that or the other. I think that all of those things are strong things where, you know, you're usually kind of leveraging your personal brand of, hey, this is who I am, this is our company, this is what we stand for, so on and so forth.
- [23:40]
B
You actually just brought up a good point. Um, you know. Cause part of our strategy, too was, you know, from Redbird, was to get into these BNI groups or to get into the, like, the Lions Club or the local chambers and like, and that stuff. I mean, listen, Dear God, I'd never want to be able. I never want to have to do that again, but I would if that's what it meant, somebody in your business would. It is a relationship game still, and it takes some nurturing to get there, but it's worth it, you know, and those relationships matter. And another thing is you could find some good, you know, complimentary businesses that could help, you know, give you some of those referral leads, whether it be, you know, real estate agents or property managers or whatever, like, so just building some of Those relationships are something that can also, you know, also help. I mean, it's something that, you know, that we're doing.
- [24:24]
A
Yeah, I think that's the other thing, too. It's like, how many times do your customers call and ask for a service that you don't offer? Like, well, there's probably people that, you know that have those businesses. Is there a way to set up a program or, hey, if my technician sends you a lead, pay him 50 bucks and pay us 50 bucks or, you know, whatever it is. You know, you can work out different deals, obviously different jobs or different, you know, talking about a bath remodel or a pest control, you know, maintenance. They're two different. So you just set up different things. But that's one of the things that we're working on as well, is kind of building these partners where people can come to us. We may not be Peterman Brothers, may not be able to fulfill that, but due to the amount of leads that we're generating and phone calls that we're taking every day, and customers are asking, you know, do you have someone who does drywall? Do you have someone who does windows or roofing or whatever it is? Well, that's an easy lead to pass over. You know, there's some mechanics that you want to make sure that you've got down, but I think there's opportunity there for sure.
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B
I mean. Yeah, because we're doing a variation of that.
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A
Yeah, absolutely.
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B
Yeah. But at least you. I mean, and trust has to be a part of that. And. And the way the reason it works with this is because you're part of both, so it makes it a little bit easier, but it's actually a great. A great thing to do. And there's a lot of successful contractors that already do that, but there's a lot that don't even think about that. And I don't want to. I didn't want to overlook it, so I figured it's worth mentioning, you know, another thing that you can do, too. And I'm not going to go deep into this because Chad and I are going to do a. An episode on it specifically. And it's just around, you know, optimization for your SEO, like how what the things that you can do or pay attention to or what really matters, because there's still some, like, grayness around. Like, what is it? There's. Somebody made a post in one of the social media groups the other day. I can't remember what it was. And it was around, you know, these audits. Like, everybody's got an audit that they can pull. Right. And they're all. There's always a variation of audits. Audits are sales tools. Right. Everyone runs an audit to find what's wrong. All right. And to find, you know, and they'll pull audits that are ridiculous, that are like. And then say, oh, look at this over here. And like, and honestly, in the grand scheme of things, that one thing over here didn't. Doesn't matter, but the contractor doesn't know. So it's just a tool, you know, that they use for sales. But there are some, like, key things. And I'm going to share this with you in one of our episodes. I'm going to give you, like, a little list, you know, of what they are, so that way you can share it with whomever your marketing agency is. But some key, critical things that you can use to just make sure that SEO is being successful. Especially because, you know, sometimes there's. You don't know what the hell it is or what it's actually producing. But there's some really key things that you can use to figure out. Is it legit doing good or not doing good so you can make a decision to move on.
- [27:00]
A
Yeah, we use a software, and our digital guys are just use it as a checklist every month, and it runs a report, and then they know exactly, okay, go fix this, go fix that, whatever it may be. So, yeah, I think it's a useful tool. We've seen kind of our organic rank and SEO ever since we started doing that, because I do think there was a lot of, like, it seemed like very, like, shadowy, like, what do I do? Is this even working? What are we talking about? Type stuff. But to your point, I think there's a lot of things that can be done that are effective. There still may be a little gray area there because no one knows how Google is actually ranking the damn things. But I think that there's. There's tools out there that can draw you closer to, you know, being a little bit better.
- [27:43]
B
Yeah. And honestly, I'll tell you, I'll just give you guys a couple quick nuggets on that. Is all the stuff's trackable from a search engine optimization perspective, all of it. So that way you can give you the exact answer. But video has never been more important. Video has never been more important than it is right now. And it might seem weird. Like, right now we have our team on site. I think they're out in Missouri doing a shoot for one of our customers, and it's just pulling video Content that we can start loading into their marketing campaigns and into their websites like it matters. So, you know, thank God we have our in house video production team to go do that stuff. But like, but I've heard it said over and over again that this year even really tail end of last year, but this year like it's so important to start adding in video content. Doesn't always have to be long form, it can be short form. So. But make sure you have video in your strategy somewhere. It's not a waste of money, I promise. But again, we'll do an episode on, on that in the next couple weeks. Another thing I want to talk about, Chad, just kind of dip into your like building long term customer relationships. You know, whether it's through your maintenance agreements, programs. You kind of talked about cross selling and like, or upselling or whatever. But now maybe you need to go and revisit that list. You know, maybe you need to look at your loyalty programs, you know, the customer education. I think in regards to video, there's lots of ways that you can go and do customer education. Like Chad got a customer from his podcast and I'm assuming in that podcast he wasn't just selling Peterman Brothers. He was probably talking about a service and, or something to pay attention to. And they heard that that built confidence, you know, just from him talking about xyz, I'm assuming. Chad, I'm not sure but I'm guessing it's probably something similar to what you did. The point is, is that you can do these things where you're going on to these community Facebook, you know, these Facebook community sites or pages and groups and going in, you're just sharing tips, you're asking for nothing. You're just sharing tips, you know, or replying and giving answers to things too and asking for nothing. But that's what generates business. That's an instance where you could also use your, you could use some of these, you these video, the video stuff to help you out. Were you on the podcast with me, Chad, whenever we talked to Roger Wakefield? Were you on that episode? I don't know if you were or weren't. He's a plumber. You would have remembered.
- [29:52]
A
Yes, I was. I remember him. He's out of Texas or something like that.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was talking about how with just because he's got a ton of like his YouTube channels. Insane. Like if you go to YouTube and type in plumbing and he comes up like number one in all of his videos, he talks about just take a video, just Take, you know, somebody going out and running a normal service call for you doing a normal thing, even if it's a drain cleaning and just kind of videoing it. Somebody who's competent, who could do it, doesn't mind doing it, but you're just kind of documentary, you know, doing a little documentary on the actual service that you normally do every single day. And you're posting those things as like a help video, a DIY video. You know that the odds are that they aren't going to do a diy. But the point is, is that you're using that video and then you can add that to your drain, you know, your drain cleaning page. And then there's added value because you added that video to your page. But point being is like, what else can you do to drive, you know, volume through your existing maintenance agreements? And then maybe is it time to make some changes to your loyalty program? You know, so how can you reward repeat customers with discounts, priority service, whatever it is?
- [30:56]
A
Yep, absolutely. No, I think that's huge. The video piece I think is critical. I think too, looking at video from a customer satisfaction standpoint. So like, you know, if you offer plumbing inspections with your. This is one that we're actually working on right now, I was brought up in a meeting this morning, is our customers don't know what to expect when we say a plumbing inspection as part of their membership. And so what we've done is shot a video that basically shows someone walking through a house. And this is what to expect when we come out. And it may seem like, but if I can watch a two minute video on like what you're actually going to be doing, to me, that's powerful. And then to your point, like, you know, I think of why is my mainline backed up? Is this a problem? You know, you know, probably most people don't know that there's a pipe that runs from your house out to the city sewer. And why is that malfunctioning? Or you know, just different things like that that I think can be super powerful. And then, yeah, making sure that, you know, you are taking care of your customers. Making sure. I think one of the things that we've ran into is as you build your membership base, you also have to realize that every membership is however many visits and how many visits can one person do in a year's time? And so you've got to really work on your manpower and making sure that you've got enough people to service that membership. We grew our membership so fast that we couldn't Keep up with the labor. Well, then we pissed customers off because, well, hey, you haven't been out to service my thing. You know, whatever. I sound like I know what I'm doing. Service my thing. But yeah, so just keeping that in mind. But I think those are all. I actually wrote down two or three things that we're going to go do because I think they're good ideas.
- [32:45]
B
Thank you. Did that come from me? Yes. Woohoo. Okay. You're welcome, buddy. And that's what friends are for. You like that? Yeah. Was.
- [32:56]
A
That was good.
- [33:00]
B
Okay, well, and by the way, you know, I think it says something that Chad actually has Jared in house who does his video for him. Like, he's got Jared. He's. He's on staff. He's ready to. And he does, does great work, but he can, you know, he has somebody on staff videos that. That important. And I get it, you know, for some of you that are smaller, like, you don't have to have video on staff, but you can find some, you know, a lot of. There's a lot of talented, you know, videographers out there that can, that can help your business a lot. Okay, so I'm gonna pivot one more time and go to something that you and I both love to talk about. We did. We've done a podcast on this too. But another thing that can be helpful, you know, when overall search volume is down is, you know, paying attention to your conversion rates. And if you don't know how. Here's the simplest way to start. The simplest way is just convert what you already got. Convert what you already got. Like you have, you know, you have somebody answering the phone. I don't care if it's you. If it's you answering the phone, you're pretty. Then you know, you already know which calls you are and aren't making or you're missing. But if it's your staff, just pay attention to how, what the call volume looks like, what's coming in, you know, are they booking like things like that? I mean, that's, that's an easy one to fix. And that one person's impacting not only new business, but exist listing business. So pay attention to that one. And if you don't know how, if you're just saying, hey, man, there's like, it's. How am I doing that? How am I paying attention to it? Well, maybe Chad, how you guys, what are you guys doing to pay attention to how your, you know, CSRs are booking calls? Like maybe give a couple options, you know, from when you guys were smart, much smaller to where you guys are at today, just to hit the gamut.
- [34:31]
A
But yeah, when we were small, we just didn't. Yeah, when we were small, we just didn't do it right. Who cares? But no, I mean, we're looking at individual csr, you know, booking rates, different things like that. I think as it relates to an earlier topic, I think one important thing to keep in mind is if you're just looking at raw ROI on marketing campaigns, you're only getting kind of half the picture, right? It's if you've got one that's low, it may not be that the marketing campaign sucks. It may mean that, well, we're having trouble really booking this type of lead. Like, why is that? Where is it the type of customer is it? You know, like one prime example for us is like a pay per click install lead versus a Facebook install lead. Like, we look at conversion rate roi, are we able to book these calls? How often are they canceling? So Facebook, as you can expect, you get a lot of tire kickers, right? It's like, hey, just checking this out, whatever it is. Well, we see our conversion rates really low in that and it bounces around a little bit, just depending on a number of things. But if you've got a campaign that's not working, like, dig into why is it not working. Go listen to the calls. Hey, we got 15 calls on this thing last week. Well, like, what did those sound like? Who were the people calling? And that may influence you to say, hey, maybe we need to shift our marketing dollars away from that lead source because it's producing leads, but they're junk. Or we can't convert them because the customer is, you know, typically we're getting price shoppers there and they're not, you know, used to that. And it will differ by market. I mean, we have some markets that, you know, LSA works tremendously well and then other ones where it's not as great. And, you know, just digging into that I think is. Is critical. But yeah, I mean that everything starts in that call center. Are you booking the calls that are coming in? I guess fortunately there are, you know, some softwares, I believe, service titans, new Call Center Pro or whatever the hell they're calling it, which I don't think is released yet is going to be able to do this. But, you know, right now you have to kind of manually score that call as, is this a lead? Is this a, you know, should I disregard? I can't remember the terminology. Should I, You Know, is it booked, unbooked or not a lead? Well, if you have to manually do that, there's some human element in there. And if I'm a csr, I'm going to book it as not a lead as opposed to unbooked because, well, that hurts me. Well, I need to know, is that really unbooked and why are we not booking it?
- [37:10]
B
Yeah, that's a really good point and thanks for calling it out. That's been like the thorn on my side these last few years. Is that lead attribution?
- [37:16]
A
I think it's close. It sounds like it.
- [37:18]
C
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- [38:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, well listen, like when we were finishing Rhino Tracks 2.0, which is, I mean our reporting platform and the reason that we wanted full integration with Service Titan was because it takes a human being to go in and check that lead classification to see if it was changed or not changed. And I was like, we cannot do that. Like that's too many calls, it's too many people. It's heavy labor to just prove it, you know, just to figure out what's right and what's wrong. So the point was if I have my call tracking numbers pointed to the service time tracking numbers and I have full integration with Service item, every call that comes through, there's no changing that call. Cause I'm catching everything on the front end and I'm also seeing whether it was booked or not booked. And if somebody changes it, I can See? And you can obviously see who changes it. And so it was. You can catch all that stuff. So it's basically. It's automated for you. So what Chad just says right now, what we were able to do is full, like, full, completely, fully automate that real time so we can catch that shit. The point is just to see, is it or is it not working? Like, to Chad's point, maybe you're doing really good with LSA leads in one market, but it's not in another. Well, let's figure out why. And the one piece of advice I'll give any of you listening right now is do not let your pride get in the way, okay? Because pride's only going to cost you money. Be okay with the fact that it might be your team that's underperforming. And the good news is, is if it is, you can fix it. If it's marketing, you got. You have no control over it directly. If it's your problem, you can fix it. And so a good marketing partner, you know, is going to help you at least find those things and call it out for you, because you know that that's being a good partner, that's being helpful. But do the diligence of figuring the process out, to Chad's point, like, find out what is it? Like, why aren't we booking this drain cleaning lead? In this market, you're gonna find the problem. If you listen to a call, you'll probably hear, maybe it's the person who's taking that call in that market, but all the information's there today. Like, shit, you have everything to figure this stuff out.
- [40:38]
A
Yeah. And one thing, one piece of advice, just because I've learned the hard way, is if your booking rate is lower than you want it, one thing to look at is it may not be the person answering the phone. So that's like the easy solution, right? It's like, oh, they're terrible. They can't do this. Like, yeah, you want to clarify that? But there's a lot of operational things that can affect your booking rate. Do you have enough people? Do you. How are you scheduling calls? Is it, you know, the windows aren't working for the customer or however you book? There's a myriad of ways to do it. But, like, you've got to dig deep in a lot of these issues to find out, because there's a lot of moving parts to these businesses. And just because one thing isn't working, like, what is the root cause of it? And a lot of times there's multiple Ones like, I know for us, like, if our booking rates are low, lower than what we want, it's typically because we don't have enough capacity. And so I can't tell someone with no heat and it's 10 degrees outside that I'll see you next Monday. They're not going to book the call. Or what you'll see is the booking rate stays, but then the cancellation rate goes through the roof. Well, why is that? Well, they don't want to wait four days, so that's more of a recruiting need. Hey, we need more people to take in the call volume that we're getting so that we can tell the customer, hey, we're going to be there today or we're going to be there first thing tomorrow, whatever it is. So I would just encourage people that when you have an issue or you take something from this episode and you're like, hey, yes, that is a problem. I'm going to dig in. Understand that when you dig in, it's probably not one root cause. There's probably a number of things. And then you've got to figure out, okay, which one am I going to solve for first? And then you can kind of work through the problem.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah, and I will say I'm gonna give a shameless plug here too, because I'm really excited about it. If you are having a CSR issue, we have our traction CSR coaching program which has been fantastic fitted out by ner. We care and gettle, dude. It thing is like, Chad's been a part of it, so he understands it. Like, this thing is dialed in. It's so fun to watch that thing take flight. But yeah, man, ping. Like, you just said a couple things that I wasn't even thinking about, Chad. And when you're a listener and you're smaller and you're listening to that, that sounds like a shitload of work. Like, who's gon do that? Like, somebody has to take responsibility for it. Maybe that person's you. But I think it matters that much that you. You should, like, follow that thing. You know, you should follow that thing all the way down the path to figure out where the kink and chain is. Because what's that mean to you in Revenant? Like, you got to pay attention to these things or. Or assign somebody to pay attention to it. So, yeah, I think that the conversion thing is something we've talked about all the time. I was just thinking that was more on the operational side. From a website perspective. It's pretty straightforward. You can see. I mean, I don't really look at website traffic as a metric really anymore. Like, because it's so easy to manipulate. What I care about is of the lead volume that's coming in, what's actually a legit opportunity, but just maximizing on actual opportunity and making sure that your marketing company is like making changes to a potential, you know, value proposition if need be. Like, if you need to change things, change it. I also think that. And listen, we've been guilty of this too. I also think it's very important for your market agency to be proactive. Right? I'm one. They have to know the industry. But maybe bringing you what others are doing, you know, around the US Too, that, you know, maybe you don't want to make that offer, but I think it's worth them bringing it to you and saying, hey, this has been working across, you know, these guys over here. It seems to be doing really well. You know, what do you think? Like, that's being a good partner, just bringing new opportunities to do. Also, is the. The seasonal promotions, right? Like, maybe now's the time to not do the exact same thing that everybody else is telling you. You know, Chad and I've talked about that numerous times too. But, like, maybe now's the time to try something different. And by the way, like, you know, you chat. I was talking about Facebook leads. The things that used to annoy me the most with it was you could get a lot of social media leads at a decent cost per lead, but then you couldn't do the job because they couldn't even pass a credit check. So, yeah, it looks great from a lead perspective, but then it might look like on operations, what's another one you got to chase all the way through? Like, was that lead really valuable at $26 a lead? No, because you. Of the. Of the 100 that came in, you booked, you sold one. Like, those are things that we were trying to pay attention to. But maybe it's just changing up your seasonal promotions. Like, try something different. I don't know. I mean, you guys, I know you guys have your, you know, your free furnace program and like the free AC stuff all, but I mean, how frequently are you guys even looking at switching things up or even like thinking about trying different things? Or do you already.
- [45:17]
A
Not really. I mean, at this point, we've got kind of it locked into, like, we've tried just about every damn thing you can possibly try. Free furnace works for us, so we utilize it. We use it a little bit less when the weather's on our Side simply because we get the service leads to turnovers and different things like that. But yeah, I mean, I think that is something to try different things. I will tell you from experience, I haven't found a whole lot that works. If we're talking about driving install leads, you know, with a promotion, I should say, I mean, yeah, you're getting them on lsa, you're getting them on pay per click, different things like that. But that's been the only one in my. If anybody has any other ones and would like to share those, that would be wonderful. But I haven't seen much that that gets the phone to ring like that again. There are parts of that where you have to be. You got to be conscious of it because sometimes with the word free, you get credit declines, you get customers who are more price. Different things like that that you have to kind of work through. So you got to monitor it. It would be the thing, I would tell you that pre Covid and during COVID it worked like a charm. It has not worked as well here of late. I think there's some things. And you're always trying to figure out what the customer's thinking, but I think there's some things out there. I think the fires in California, I think inauguration coming up, you know, just different thing coming off Christmas, like, there's a. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, but I think there's a lot of things contributing. I'm hopeful to get, you know, past all the political stuff and just kind of operate as normal. Hopefully everything gets taken care of out there in California, which is just terrible. But yeah, I, I think that's one thing to monitor for sure.
- [47:06]
B
And think that one thing that's always been. That been really good is speed to service. If you can actually do it, is always a great, you know, we'll call that. I think that falls in the promo category, but also, you know, making it easy to do business with you. Right. If you have chat, put chat. You know, if you can have an online book or online scheduler, make sure you get online scheduler, like make it easy to do business with too. That's one for sure. And then I want to just switch gears for just a second and talk about. Because, you know, some of, obviously some of our friends and some of our sponsors, previous sponsors. You know, there's also things that can get you in the door. Like, you know, Chad Peterman Brothers doesn't. Doesn't do installation, but our roofing business does installation. There's companies who, like, you know, you guys have heard the, the new based stuff, the smart AC stuff, the this, the that. There's some different sort of duct cleaning as a, as a lead in. These are some legit things that can get you. The duct cleaning piece is interesting. I've seen more people offering that as a standalone service to get themselves in the door. And honestly, the cost per lead is pretty low. I think as long as the process is dialed in. I like it as a lead gen effort. But you have some other alternatives, you know, to get you to kind of, you know, maybe set you apart or just give you a reason to talk to the homeowner or potential customers. So I'm liking this. The, you know, the thermostat conversation, you know, has come up and Chad and I have been involved in a lot of it. But, you know, the point being is like, you know, it's. If you can take advantage of them, it is. The point of it is it can catch potential repair and service calls for you without you having to go and pay for the lead. It generates the lead for you and it's capturing it and it's keeping it from going to someone else. So there's some stickiness, you know, to that service. But again, it's. The whole point is like, I'm just thinking of, like, what else can you do? Like, what else can we shotgun out here to just see what works and try some different things. So I love, whenever Ishmael posts about, you know, nuve and different things and you hear all this, you see all the feedback. It was actually really, really great feedback in that because you have the haters and you have those that think it's cool, some that are using it, but now I think there's enough people out there using that. And same thing with Smart AC where I'm hearing. I mean, it's just good to see the chatter coming from the contractors who are actually active with them in the market. That only makes it better. But at least people are out there trying these different things and some of them are having some really good success.
- [49:29]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of this new stuff is, is going to be really good. You know, it's similar to the. All the AI stuff and, and things of that nature that, you know, are hopefully only going to help our industry for sure.
- [49:44]
B
And the last thing is I'll try to finish off with this. You know, some of the simple things too is, you know, I want to give a little bit of love to our two sponsors, Rilla and Chirp, because those are also two great tools, you know, that you can use whether you're using them or, you know, hopefully you're using them, but if you're using a similar product, you know, that's chasing down how to help make your sales team, you know, better or how to, you know, follow up, you know, on, on, you know, the leads that are coming in or the rehash leads or whatever. Like those are also a couple really great channels to help you, you know, get better, you know. So again, the whole point of this particular episode was let's just talk through what are some alternatives when search volume is down, right? Because a lot of companies are relying on that, it's down. But if you looked at like Google trends and you just look, it's still way, it's still a shitload of it. It's just that not only a search volume down, there's more people going after it with more money. So it is a supply and demand game for Google except for they really take advantage of the demand and keep increasing pricing. So but you know, there's plenty of opportunities for you to go and get businesses. I think this year Chad's going to be a great year. I think it's still going to be, you know, I think it's going to be tough. Like, I mean the market will be similar to how it was last year from like my marketing perspective. But we've learned a year's worth of information, you know, in that market to be able to attack this year differently.
- [51:06]
A
Whatever you think, you're right.
- [51:09]
B
That's right. I like it.
- [51:10]
A
It.
- [51:10]
B
That's very thoughtful, Chad.
- [51:12]
A
If you think it's going to be a shitty year, I have a feeling you're going to get what you asked for.
- [51:16]
B
That's pretty good mindset. Hey, speaking of mindset, Mason, so my son came to me, oh so proud dude. He came to me at the end of last. So he had his first this is around mindset, by the way. Listen, to show. I promise there's a, there's a story here. He's, he's 13 years old, wrestled his first match, you know, maybe a month or a month ago and you know, got, he's, you know, he's in junior high, eighth grader, went to the third period, got pinned by the kid who basically won the entire conference. Really good kid. He made to the third period. He actually put him on his back, had a chance to beat him. Now I'm a big believer in confidence. Right. Like you just, I just kept pumping confidence into this kid. Like go out There with, you know, copies. Even though he's just scrappy, but he doesn't know the moves. I just want to get his mind right because he. And he walked out there and was like. You could tell he was visibly. He was nervous. Like, he walks out to the line, gets out there. Kid's sitting there waiting for him. They come out of the gate, and the kid, you know, starts to go after Mason, and once he gets a hold of him, he can tell, like, okay, cool, I'm stronger than this guy. He's. He doesn't know the skill, but he's stronger than him. So he could see his confidence building. He gets beat. No big deal. First match he's ever wrestled. Last weekend, he has his first dual meet. Wrestles, you know, he has five matches, six total teams, but only five had wrestlers because he's a little guy. He's wrestling 93 pounds. It was so cool to watch him wrestle his first match because he goes out kind of the same way because it's been a month. It's kind of like, okay, I know I got something. But this kid looks pretty. Like. Looks tough. He looks tough. Chad. He looks tough. At 93 pounds, he looks tough. He goes out there kind of timid. Okay, Russell's a kid. Loses by a point. Loses by a point. Should have beat the kid, no doubt. But he kind of got a little sloppy in the. In the first match. So he comes off the mat, comes over to me, you know, and he's a little defeated. And I'm like, dude, the only reason that you lost that match is because you came into it being defensive versus offensive in that first period because you're thinking, yeah, you know, let him shoot on me. And then in like. But I said, yeah, you let him shoot on you. Then it wore you out. So come second period, you were already exhausted. If you didn't do that and you were on offense, it would have changed the game. Next match, he wins. Next match, he wins. Next match, wins. Next match, he wins. You just see his confidence building. And it all came down to his mindset. And what he did was he had to learn to shift. Like, he had to change the game plan. I'm going to play defense. I'm going to draw them in, then I'm going to. Well, that didn't work. Shifts to being on the offense. He's the one shooting. Take him down. And you just saw his confidence build. This is how this happens in business, too, right? Like, you come into some of these years, and it's like, oh, it's super slow. January, we're down. Why are you going to approach February? You are what you think you are. Like, you're going to have the year that you think you're going to have. Like, mindset is so critical, and people always. They hear it and then they, like, gloss over because it's like, cliche. Let's talk about mindset. It's so freaking true, man. But, you know, it's like you get on these. You get on these waves, you know, and that builds confidence. And I think that, you know, if you just kind of go into these years expecting, if you're. You already know you're going to run into some. You know, you're going to have some. Something's going to go wrong. Somebody's going to quit. You didn't want to quit. A complaint's going to happen from a client. There's going to be some internal shit you got to deal with. There's growth problems, there's costs, you know, there's. There's an equipment. Something's going to happen. You can bank on that. But it's going to happen for everybody at some point. So, like, yeah, man, go get it. You are what you think you are. I think that's a really good point. I didn't even think. Didn't plan on talking about that. But it's just something that's been on my mind because his goal was around. I just want to be. Have discipline and I want to have discipline and mindset, whereas two focuses. And I was like, dude, they kind of go together, you know, they kind of go together. So focus on that. So, like, first thing, he wakes up in the morning. If he wakes himself up, he checks the first box. So. And if he doesn't wake himself up, then he starts. Kicks the day off with the L. And that happened, you know, yesterday he woke up with an L and he was like. And so. But then he, like, he hurried up and cleaned up his room. So that way he got, you know, so now it's 1:1. And if he gets. And if he makes sure he works out, now he's up to one. So all I do is turn it into like a little game for him. So that way he can check some boxes. But that matters.
- [55:27]
A
Yep. It's. It's both the best and the worst thing about this business is. I was thinking about this this morning on the drive in. In this industry, you. There are no off days. Like, yeah, you may take the weekend. Let's just take Monday through Friday. There are no off days. Like, you've got an opportunity and you have to go win the day. So to me, that's the good thing. Right? We get the opportunity to win the day every single day. But the hard part is to your point and the mindset is when we lose a day, it's really easy to get down and let that spiral. But at the end of the day, when the day's over, you've ran all the calls, they're all done. You've got the board set for tomorrow. Like, what are you going to do tomorrow to go win the day, to go turn back the tide of momentum? And I think that's the, the thing that sometimes I don't know that we think about, but it's, you know, how do I go win the day? How do I go figure out how I'm going to execute and fix what went wrong yesterday and improve and get better. And over time, the more that we do that, we're going to find ourselves really near success or where we are projected to be or where we want to be.
- [56:42]
B
Yeah. And here's the cool thing, listeners. You are 100% in control of that. A hundred percent. You are in control of what you do next. I'll leave you with the last example. You know, I had a great day yesterday. Like I'm firing on all cylinders, you know, in all phases of my life. Business was great yesterday. Like, you know, I made a lot of accomplishment, heard a lot of great stories from clients and from of our private equity partners and like, it was just an awesome day all the way around. I, you know, got to the gym, everything was firing on all cylinders. Come home from the gym last night, you know, I'm going, I'm making dinner for the family and I get some news on some bad news, you know, on a particular client that was like derailed me because I'm like, and this is like 8:00 at night. So I'm like immediately a Debbie Downer. Honestly, I'm pissed, I'm mad about it. And when I woke up this morning, because I get up early, I get up early at 5:30, then I get my journal, I do this whole thing. I woke up, it's the first thing I thought about when I woke up. And I woke up and I was pissed all over again. So I like had to take a minute when I'm journaling and be like, okay, like that's not going to get me anywhere. Like, okay, I was mad about last night. I'm gonna leave it last night. Today's new day. So to your Point. Carpe diem, you know, make the day. As you know, you every single day is a new day to do something great, or you get to dictate how that day goes, and you get to dictate how you handle any issues, the problems that come up. You get to dictate everything. You. You're 100 in control of that. And the good news is, is that every human being that I've ever met has the ability to control that, you know, that mindset or to find tools that help you with that mindset. Like, if you're in business and you're listening to this right now and you started the company or you're leading the company when you went into it, or you chose that position, you knew it wasn't going to be easy. Like, you knew it, and if you did, maybe you shouldn't be in business because it is not easy. But you already knew that going into it, and you still, you chose it. And you have all the tools in the world to make yourself be successful, to kind of get your mind right. And maybe that thing can for you could be journaling, like, maybe that's it. Maybe it's doing gratitude in the morning. Maybe it's just, you know, again, there's plenty of opportunities for you to go and be great. But to Chad's point, carpe diem, man. Seize the day. But my hope is for you, you know, in this episode was, I mean, there's lots of ways for you to go and help you be successful this year, even in a market that, you know, that might be slower from a search engine perspective. Plenty of opportunity for you to still go and grow your business. So there's no excuse. Would you agree, Chad?
- [59:15]
A
100%.
- [59:16]
B
Let's go.
- [59:16]
A
The time is now.
- [59:18]
B
Time is now, listeners. And you don't got to do everything, but you got to do something.
- [59:22]
A
No zero days.
- [59:24]
B
No zero days.