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To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
Private Equity, Culture Shock, & Rebuilding: Anna Yano’s Story
01:00:19
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- [00:02]
A
This is to the Point.
- [00:06]
A Rhino Experience bullet, one of the top home services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the and getting to the point.
- [00:17]
Hey, what's up? To the Point, listeners. It's your boy Chris. It's going to be an exciting episode today. Why? Because it's our 300th episode. Three hundo episodes of you guys listening to me talk. Thank you for. If you listen to all 300, God bless you. But you feel like your family. You really know me. Speaking of family, looking at me across the table is my family. And that is Anna Yano, who, just to remind everybody, didn't want this podcast to exist.
- [00:54]
B
Nope.
- [00:55]
A
And here we are in our 300th episode.
- [00:58]
B
Yep.
- [00:59]
A
And you're the guest.
- [01:00]
B
Yeah, here I am.
- [01:01]
A
I'm excited for our conversation today.
- [01:03]
B
You made it 299more than I thought you would.
- [01:09]
A
Still going strong. Well, I. To our listeners, this is gonna be a special episode. You're gonna hear. Are you gonna learn a lot about running a contracting company today? Probably not, but I think you're going to learn a lot about just our journey, because I think you'll realize that there's still a lot of overlap in our businesses and how we run them and scale them and lead them and go through all the trials and how private equity can get involved and mess up your business, or how leadership can be the wrong leadership in place, or how you can have the right systems and processes, but the human beings involved in it break the. There's still normal shit that you're gonna be able to take away from this. But I just thought it'd be an interesting one for us to have documented, you know, out there for everyone to hear, including our kids down the road if they want to listen to this, to hear what our journey has been like. But more so, I'm going to interview you from your perspective because, you know, you don't put yourself out there too much. Even though I keep trying to push you and push you out there, you don't do it.
- [02:04]
B
Nope.
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A
So I like. I like to, you know, we have some of these conversations with, like, Tommy or Bri or Peterman or any of these other guys. Right. So I thought let's just share it live on here. And I think the biggest. The another big thing about this is you have some real perspective on what this marketing space looks like for the listeners. Our contractors going into 26. Based on your experience, you've worked with some of our big private equity clients. You got to work with Goodrich, you get to work with some of our retail partners like Ace. And so you have a good feel for what you think the challenges are for these contractors. Some of the easy wins, the things that. So there's things that the listeners will be able to catch onto that are applicable to them beyond just our. Our star personal story. Right. So you know what? I think what I'm going to focus on today is just kind of our journey, more so post transaction, post private equity, kind of what that's looked like. I know. Which is what, about two and a half years. We did our. We brought on our private equity partner in April of 2023 and we've had a hell of a journey up to this, up to this point. So, so, and then we're talking a bit about just about the future of digital now. Actually, I'm going to start there so that way our listeners can kind of hear that first. So first off, thanks for coming on and doing this. And to the listeners, I prepped her with nothing, zero. So this is going to be like she's going to. If you're watching.
- [03:26]
Pay close attention to her eyes because that'll tell you if I should or should not have asked that question. Because she doesn't do a good job of hiding it, at least not to me, because I can tell what her looks are. I'm gonna do my best to not get myself in trouble with our private equity partner, but I'm gonna definitely toe the line because I can't. That's what you do as I can.
- [03:48]
But I want to start off with just saying to all of our listeners and to you, like we, we. It's been a hell of a journey. But you know, we, we, we've been in a lot of meetings lately just about the future of our business and what it looks like and, and some of the new people that are in place in our business and like leaders, good leaders, we found some real, real talent. Yeah. And I will say, rhino to all of our listeners is a very successful business today. It's a very successful company, profitable company that does really, really well because we do a great job for our customers. Right. So we have. Only way you can build these businesses is you gotta do the right thing for your customers. And that's us trying to help them grow and scale, which is what you and I have done since 2008 when we started this business. So to everybody listening, I wanted to talk about the hard shit, the hard stuff that we've been through and some of the challenges and things that we've been through. But hear me, when I say Rhino is a very successful company as it sits today. And I genuinely believe we have the strongest leaders it's ever had.
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B
Agreed.
- [04:48]
A
As it sits today.
- [04:48]
B
Yep.
- [04:49]
A
And we've got to see some of them, like, in some of our private equity, with some of our private equity clients running out for annual planning meetings. You watch them in action. You're like, God, we have some real ballers on this team. And. And I'm proud of that. So as it sits today, like, we're looking real strong. The future's looking real strong for us, too. And the company's super healthy, and we just want to keep going. Right. So I think it does make more sense, though, to, like, get to the, you know, let's talk through all the hardship, the good and the bad. I don't think there's any reason to sugarcoat our story.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because here we are still kicking ass and taking some names. It's just been a grind. So before we start, what's your view? Well.
- [05:24]
Thank you. Here's what I want to preface this with. Try to be as non PC, like, just be real. Okay. Let's just talk about the real shit. Okay. But first off, this is going to be an easy softball for you. What's your view on just 2026 and the opportunity for contractors? Think about from, like, from our perspective. So when you're thinking about talking to some of these, our bigger players or even more sitting in these meetings, there's a few things that stand out to me that you say about is what a lot of these contractors should be optimistic for in 26. But, like, what comes to mind originally, whenever I ask that question.
- [06:02]
B
To be optimistic about, I think that I would be leaning into operational efficiencies. I mean, that's a big one in the sense of. For us, we're changing our reporting, and it is a challenge. As a marketing company, there's a lot that exists between generating a lead and. And revenue and service tighten at the end of the day, and more operational inefficiency is being exposed than ever. And I do think that the increased reporting, the deployment of AI and operational efficiencies and just improving those things are huge wins for contractors that they're not doing right now. And a lot of it's a lack of maybe visibility or ownership in that part of the process. And I think with the political climate and the economy and the way things have changed, businesses that don't focus on those things will struggle, and businesses that really focus there will thrive. I also think the deployment of AI in general.
- [07:01]
We'Re getting to a spot where AI might be able to answer calls better than your CSRs can, and that's a scary prospect. And there's a lot of people who aren't going to like to hear that response. But the reality is that is a challenging position to keep. Motivated, trained, consistent, overcoming objections. And the deployment of AI has made it where you can get that consistency and accuracy without all of the expenses. So a more consistent client experience and a reduced cost is a big win for any business.
- [07:34]
A
Yeah, I'm actually going to piggyback off that real quick. So you and I were out in New York a few weeks ago and we went to go meet with Avoca, who's one of our new strategic partners who earned it. They're one of our podcast sponsors, so shout out to Avoca. But at the end of the day, these guys are absolutely killing it with their AI. It's like their booking rates are ridiculous. So you can't even if you don't.
- [07:52]
B
Like it, you got to fight the.
- [07:53]
A
Data because it's like it's actually working well. And then the only one, when you know, when you, when, when you look across some of the others in this space that are doing the exact same thing as Evoca, Evoka is the only one with the human in the loop. So, you know, if you're sitting there saying, customer service, customer Service, or pushing 0 and you'll just drink it, you're going to get an AI agent. And Avoca is the only one that allows you to connect with an actual human being here in the United States of America. That's a big deal for sure. So it kind of gives you the best of both worlds, but I love seeing the progress of it. Oh, and by the way, here's a teaser to all of our listeners, something that I've been really working on hard is I know some of you think like, oh, these lead aggregates are bullshit, like Yelps or Angie's or Thumbtack or whatever you call it. And what I've learned is I used to feel the exact same way. By the way, there's a process you have to have in place for it to actually make them work. They do work if you actually have a good sales process in place. So I thought, man, Rhino should be offering this third party lead. Like, we manage the market, the budget for them on these third party lead aggregates, and then rather than have these individual contractors book the calls, we just use a VOCA to book the calls since it integrates directly into service Titan So what if I filled your 3 day call board for you? That'd be a fancy little offering. So now we can, we're all trying to find different ways to get leads. Right. And when the demand is down, you got to spread yourself a little bit wider.
- [09:06]
B
Yeah.
- [09:07]
A
So anyway, that's something I'm trying to work and figure out to all you listeners. So I'll keep you posted as we progress. Okay. So you're very optimistic about 2026. It's more of a blocking and tackling type of year. But like Goodrich will say, like when everybody gets nervous and pulls back is when he would always double down. He's done it again and again and again and again. Would you agree that's.
- [09:24]
B
I would 100% agree.
- [09:25]
A
Right. So not just because you are a owner and, or a founder of a marketing agency.
- [09:30]
B
I mean, I mean the, I think that there are differences right now. You know, AI has changed it where you're getting answers and prompts without ever clicking in a website. So the, even the landscape for us is changing and you will start to see data points on certain services go down as a result of that. But it doesn't mean that you don't have to do the same things to be effective in those areas. So I think that our landscape is also changing and how we do things and why we do things, the order and when will change. But I also think like just in general, like the political climate, the economy, fear, like people aren't spending as much right now as they did historically and a lot of that is related to fear. And so I think like as people pull back and as that starts to cinch back, it's your best way to build up your brand. You know, get more recognizable, get more in the community, do unique things to grow yourself. Not just in deploying marketing budget with somebody like Rhino, but just in general building your brand and your business in all sorts of different ways.
- [10:35]
A
Well, you talk about trust. When you build your brand, what you're building is trust. Right. And that's why I've been kind of preaching a little bit this past year about this OTT stuff and it kind of being a good, you can, you can run OTT and it can do nothing for you. I think you have to have the right expectation for what it's actually going to do for you. It is still a, you know, there's, there's the creative advertising and there's direct advertising and we fall in the direct advertising because we're directly generation somebody specifically looking for our businesses and we Give them a solution. Whereas creative is like your billboard, your tv, your radio. Like you're trying to create interest. Right. But somebody's not actually looking for you. Well, OTT is kind of a mixture of the two. Right. But you can, but it's all, it's digital, so you can measure it. So I like the OTT stuff. And now as I'm learning more about it, like we brought on a partner with Mountain and I really love how they're running ott, their, their thought on running. And it's something that you should lean more into because you can look like a big fit. You could look like a big fish in a small pond. Pretty easy, right? Decent size budget that's nowhere near the size of a traditional media.
- [11:33]
B
Well, their cost per conversions are better and it's getting more trackable than maybe it's historically been. So there is without boring everybody. There are some things you can do with IP addresses now that you can actually do a trace back on OTT that hasn't historically typically been part of the tracking.
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A
And for those who don't know what OTT is, it's over the top advertising. It's like the stream, the ads you see on streaming services. So that's what that is. Okay, we're gonna move on from that. Cause I wanna get down to like the, the duds and bolts of. Yeah, all the good stuff. This is gonna be a hard pivot. Are you ready?
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B
Okay.
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A
I wrote this down because I don't wanna, I don't wanna miss a word of this thing. So I'm just gonna read this to you real quick. And then again, I want the not polished version. I want the, the super honest one.
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B
Okay.
- [12:18]
A
All right.
- [12:18]
B
So look, you're not gonna get me fired from my job, are you?
- [12:20]
A
I don't think so.
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B
Okay, go ahead.
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A
But I actually don't think that we can be fired from our jobs. I mean, they could, but we'd all be in trouble.
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Looking back at the last couple of years and boy, what a ride has it been for us these last couple years after bringing on our private equity partner and the merger of Blue Corona into Rhino. Two very different things that we've been through. What's the real story of what the transition has felt like for you?
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B
Oh, man, it has been with Wild and a roller coaster.
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Emotionally draining.
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It gave me a lot of visibility that if I was going to do this again or if somebody came to me and said, hey, I'm thinking about selling my company, what should I look for or what should I do? Or how should I structure things? A completely different lens to look at that with in the future. It's been hard.
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It's part of selling your company, right? When you sell your company, part of selling your company is that you're giving up decision making and you're giving up control. And our decision to sell Rhino wasn't to exit. Our decision to sell Rhino was to grow it and to bring in different thought leadership and create more opportunities for our team. And we felt very strongly about the partner that we picked. And, you know, all businesses experience different challenges. And there were changes in leadership that resulted, leadership that had strengths in different industries than the industry that we're in. And it didn't necessarily go well. And the merger of the two businesses, while you would think, hey, we've got two home services businesses and they offer the same products and they offer the same services.
- [14:10]
It should be easy. And it was not easy. It is not easy. There were different philosophies of how you do those services. There's different tooling, there's different cultures across the company, both companies. And I think one of the most challenging things is the finger pointing that exists when things don't go right and there's a team, each team blames the other and it becomes, oh, well, Blue Corona did this and it ruined Rhino, and Rhino did this and it ruined Blue Corona. And you know, everybody wants to finger point. And the reality is it's not either company's fault. We didn't do an integration well and we did it poorly, sequenced. It broke. Almost every process that we had in the organization broke either when it came to process or tooling. And the people in the organization have to bear the brunt of that when that happens. And no one wants to go to work every day and feel like they can't do their job well. And when you feel like you can't do your job well, you start to erode and that becomes a challenge because then your culture takes a hit. And when employees start to lose engagement, then clients start to feel it. And so it really becomes a pretty ugly and gnarly cycle that when it's a ship this large, it is a hard one to, to pivot back into fix. And it has been the last six months, especially the most challenging of my career. And I've said to people it was easier to grow the business the first time than it is to fix where we're at right now. And this has been the biggest test of my ability to figure things out and be a problem solver. And.
- [15:58]
The Analogy I can give that. I always think of is if I go to a tattoo artist with fresh skin, they can paint a really great, beautiful picture, and, like, the tattoo looks the way the tattoo is supposed to look. If I come in with some old, shitty tattoo that's like, bled out everywhere and got crappy lines, and now I'm like, hey, go ahead and make this something beautiful. It is a lot harder for the artist to turn it into a tattoo that's something great than it was to start with fresh skin. And that's kind of the way I feel like I'm at right now, is it's harder. It is harder now because there's legacy processes, things people go back to. There's, you know, legacy cultures. There's frustrations. There's different dynamics. So it is. It's challenging.
- [16:39]
A
I never heard you use that analogy before. I want to make sure it's, like, really, really clear to everybody listening right now that we did not lead this integration.
- [16:50]
B
No, no.
- [16:50]
A
I think that's very important to put out there that this.
- [16:53]
B
We.
- [16:55]
A
You know, there was an executive team brought in that we were not on. I guess, technically I was on it, but I was. I was on it for, I think, vanity reasons, because I certainly didn't use any of my opinions. But we were pretty much put on the bench. We'll call it that. We were put on the sidelines to let the executive team run these businesses. And that executive team that was assembled led the integration in the poorest way you could lead an integration. So I guess the good news is when. If they asked our opinion or when they asked our opinion, our opinions were the right way to do the integration. But they didn't use those opinions because we know the business and understand who you would put in what seat and what kind of implications that would have by doing it. And so I want. I'm. It's important that, you know, the listeners know, like, we were handed. Handed this, right? Like, we didn't. We didn't. We didn't do that.
- [17:49]
B
No. Oh, no.
- [17:50]
A
So, but listen, at the end of the day, it's like, I use this analogy. One of our board meetings, you know, we were kind of. And by the way, externally, you probably have no clue any of this shit's happening internally, right? Like, this is just the stuff that happens, you know, and there's probably a lot of businesses where nobody knows externally that you have any internal issues. Like, a lot of businesses go through this, and we're no different. We've been through it. We're still Experiencing it.
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B
I mean, our entire entrepreneurial career, there's always been internal challenges. They are just different. And some are harder and some are easier.
- [18:22]
A
We've never not. We've never not had them.
- [18:24]
B
There's always. There's always been some having a partner.
- [18:26]
A
To then buying out the partner, to then bring in another partner, and then buying that partner, getting rid of that partner. And like, man, we've been through quite a bit, but the only thing never changed is that we always knew that we could trust each other and that we want to make sure that we take care of the contractors, you know, and the employees. Like, the employees were always like, if we take care of them first, we'll take good care of our customers, and it'll be a beautiful little, like, cycle there. And that's what we believe in still to this day, for sure. And that was the old reputation over revenue mentality that we had, is making sure that we're focusing on taking care of our people and take care of our clients. And if we do that, the revenue will come. It's kind of mentality, integrity.
- [19:04]
Okay, so I'm going to. I'm going to ask if there's, like, a moment, because I have my moment. I'm curious to know what yours is, but what was the moment you realized we're losing our culture and if we don't get control of it, that we're going to lose the. The company? Hmm.
- [19:20]
B
I think.
- [19:22]
We did an NPS survey of the team.
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A
So an NPS is a net promoter.
- [19:29]
B
Score of the internal teams. And I didn't even know that you could get a negative score. Like, I didn't even think that was possible because I'd never experienced that or seen that. And I didn't think we could get a negative score. And so that was interesting to see, one, that there could be a negative score, and two, to see.
- [19:52]
Some of the theories or ideas or thoughts or perspectives that people put in those surveys that were wildly wrong and completely and totally incorrect and struggling with the ability to right side those thoughts, theories, rumors, ideas, you know, and it's harder as the company gets larger and people are remote and you don't have personal relationships with people. And even as we've evolved, we. We actually lost more employees in Q1 of 2025 than we maybe ever have in the history of the company. I've never seen anything like it. And so that is indicative of how unhappy people had become. And the NPS is only, like, you know, reinforces that from a metric basis. Um, and then when you bring on newer people. Yes. It gives you a level set in an NPS score, maybe. But now you've got all newer people that you've got to build a relationship with. So I think that was probably the moment that was the trickiest for me that I was like, holy shit. That's never been who we are. People have always been like that. Loved working here. They've always wanted to be here. Loved working here, didn't want to leave. I'm not gonna say there's not wildcards. And for most of you, wild cards. I didn't want you here either, so. But that was rude.
- [21:12]
I would say a lot of the times. Most of the time the team has like loved being here and we've taken really good care of them. And that was a sad, a really sad moment for me. And it made me feel an immense amount of guilt for the situation that we put the team in that trusted us.
- [21:28]
A
Yeah. Here's what's unique about this to the listeners. Like, I've so many people have asked me my opinion on private equity and I've had a lot of experience with it because we've had, well, we know so many private equity platforms who've become friends. They've bought our contractors, like all kinds of different experiences. And so people are like coming to me and asking me, who, which one should I consider?
- [21:48]
It's interesting because I never gave anybody the advice that I wish somebody would have given me. And this seems so silly now. I think about it, when we took 14 months like in our process to pick a partner, like that's a long ass time to find somebody. Like, we took our time because we had a lot of options, which was great. But one thing I never, ever, ever considered was that the CEO of your private equity group could quit. I never took that into consideration. And so that was something new. And it's something that's unfortunate because a big part of why we chose our partner was because of the CEO at the time, you know, and he was, you know, he is an engineer by trade, like engineer, thinker, super sharp guy. Really liked him. He was a very opposite of me. And I think that's why I liked him so much. I was like, I can learn from him. And so, so everything could be right. Like even, you know, the deal could be right. The feelings about what the partnership could be like, the vision could be right. But that's like a variable. And you would think they don't leave because they've got equity in the business and you have to lose that somewhere. Right. Like, so you. That doesn't. Thought didn't even cross my mind. But that can't. That, that certainly can happen. And so. So maybe that's an anomaly that we ran into. You know, I don't know how common that actually is.
- [23:01]
B
Right.
- [23:01]
A
But certainly something that's worth thinking about.
- [23:04]
B
I mean, for me, I think, like, and this probably sounds naive, I haven't sold any other businesses, so it's probably why it is.
- [23:13]
But it's not real if it's not in the contract. And like, you can sit in meetings going through all your negotiations and your diligence, and you can be aligned on all these different things, but if it is not documented and written in your operating agreement or in a contract, it doesn't exist later. So if you are, if it's something you're super passionate about, if it's something that's like a deal breaker for you, if it's a part of your business that's so important that you just can't give it up, you should have it in writing because that is a miss. And if things aren't going exactly the way it was planned, those things are usually going to be the first that are impacted. And, and it sucks for everybody when that happens.
- [23:55]
A
Sure, I didn't mean to derail, which I totally did, but I was just thinking about that, which, by the way, see, you and I still have a good relationship. He texts me over the weekend and I still bust his chops and saying, I still think you're an. That you left.
- [24:08]
B
And there's pros and cons of all of them. Right. Like, they're all going to have different things. I don't. I'm not of the belief system that, like, private equity is bad. I know a lot of people right now in this industry and probably listening are like, screw private equity. It ruins everything. There's gonna be some that do that and that did that, but I don't think it's necessarily the case. And I think that they're also oftentimes entrepreneurs trying to grow businesses. And the way that you do it when you're in the private equity space is going to be different. And I think it's just finding the person whose philosophy is aligned with your business and what your vision is for it and going that direction. And if you plan on exiting. Right. If you're not like us, where you planned on staying in the business and working hard with those, then take the most money and run.
- [24:52]
A
Yep.
- [24:55]
B
That would be the other pieces. Take the most money and run.
- [24:57]
A
Well, I Think that's, you know, a lot of people ask us too, why do you guys still doing it? You don't need to do it. And it's because it's not about that for us. Like in a sub. Like, we didn't sell this thing to leave. We sell it to scale it. I mean, we still got a fifth grader. Like, we can't retire. So I'm like, you always say, as long as I got a kid going to school, I might as well keep working. And I feel like we still have a lot of work to do, right? And now it's like, okay, we have this guilt and we're getting like, I'll let the guilt drive me to try and like, you know, get us back to where we feel like we're like, you know, the top of the food chain again. Like, we are the ones and everybody needs to, you know, aspire to be like. And that's where we're headed. That's where we're going. That's how you and I roll.
- [25:36]
B
We are poised for a very different 2026. And it'll take another 2ish months, maybe 3ish months. We are poised for an incredible 2026 with the really strong leaders. And I'm excited for that.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, we've never.
- [25:51]
B
The hard work is. The hard work is paying off. I see that light.
- [25:54]
A
Yeah. Finally. It's been brutal. I'm going to take it, take you back to the merger. So anybody listening who's ever even done like a small roll up or tuck in or whatever, you've probably known, like, integration is difficult because there is loyalty to wherever the company is that they're coming from and especially if they're tenured. And like, then it's like, oh, I bleed blue, not orange. Like, and you have to figure out a solve for that. And not everybody's great these things. That's why having somebody elite. Integration is so important.
- [26:19]
Let me go back to this merger, right? It's a big deal. We were two big businesses. Two big businesses who were tenured and the original owner and us, we were friends, right? And we, we were friendly competitors. And. But that's not who we got in the, in the deal. It was a different, you know, was the different, A different leader that was there, which we didn't know either until, like, we got through the deal. That original owner was not going to continue on. Um, but the merger, I was for it. You know, like I told you, like, in the beginning, remember, in the very beginning, I was for it because I could See how you would bring these businesses together, these big businesses with a lot of people were talking 300, almost 300 in total employees or somewhere around, I can't remember, we were 2,5300. And I'm thinking there's a lot of talent. Like there's some things that they do great, there's some things that we do great. Like this is going to be a great, great, great story. And I genuinely actually believe that. Like, I believe that, like, man, this just makes sense. It's all the logistics that get in the way of that because you don't think about people don't feel the same as me, they don't see the same thing as me or understand the same thing as me. And it's really what matters most to the employees themselves. Right. And that's okay, they should. Or how does this impact them or the opportunity for them. So I want to talk about just with the merger. What did you expect the merger to feel like and what did it actually feel like once you were in the middle of it?
- [27:46]
B
I wasn't. I didn't like love the idea for a multitude of reasons, but like when the decision was made that we were doing it, I felt like.
- [27:57]
That we had really good talent on both sides of the fence and it was a great opportunity for us to take the best of the best of two really high performing companies. Whether it was tooling talents, strategies, ideas, processes and that if you took the best of the best of those two and put that together, like how could you even be stoppable? That requires now on the back end, I can say it requires an immense amount of planning. And that is like in every aspect of the business there needed to be planning. And again, I've never integrated, so I've only been at the sidelines of seeing the decisions being made. But also being a natural born fixer and operator that I can see where we went sideways. There should have been conversations about the culture and what it meant in each company and how did people think we would integrate because then they didn't feel like they were smashed together. And there should have been strong tooling assessments. And one of our most successful changes in the merger was picking a completely brand new tool, which is a funny thing like that. You know, they had a tool for project management, we had a tool for project management. And the most successful part of it was that we just picked a brand new tool and everybody got something new and started over. And there was no alliance or loyalty to anything because it was brand new. And I don't Think conceptually, we were necessarily open to that. We were just looking for the path of least resistance, which was if you pick one of the two tools or one of the two things we already do or have, then you only have to train 50% of the team on the other half. But when you double the size of a company and you've got different strategies and philosophies and cultures, it doesn't mean that the tool that you were using at half the size is the right tooling for being double the size. And when you've got different products that you're delivering, that tooling isn't going to work for both potentially. And so those were the blindsides that we didn't map at all. And also communication. I do think if anybody's doing an integration, you need a weekly communication with everybody just of, here's what we're doing this week, here's what to expect, here's the plan, and here's who's going to impact. And I think a very crisp, clean communication plan probably would have allowed us to catch a lot of blindsides that we didn't know were coming.
- [30:25]
A
Okay, I got a question to piggyback off of that. And that's going to be, where did you start to see the cracks first? Was it the people, the processes, the client experience, the leadership.
- [30:35]
All of it?
- [30:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it was the processes. I think that when processes broke and things broke or there was no clear path anymore to success, people started to flounder. And, like, every employee is different. Some employees thrive in that and they wanna be part of the solution. And they're like, try to help and figure it out and fix. Some employees, like, you know, wallow in it and, like, just complain about it, and then, you know, that's their outlet. Some revert back to what they always did, which might not be the right answer, and, like, keep doing that, even though there's something new that needed to be done. And some just, like, throw their hands up and walk out and, like, they just can't handle it. And so, you know, you've got to be ready for change when you're doing a major integration like that. Like, I have the biggest change fatigue. And, you know, I recently read a review that some employee had submitted and it said something like, rhino's favorite word is change, and can't we just not change anything? And I was like, man, I wish, I wish. But when everything is broken, the only. I only have two options in that situation. Option one is leave it broken and let everybody, like, stay unhappy and pissed about it because it stays broken or change to fix it. And while the change is also painful, it gets us on the opposite side. And when we get on the opposite side, it's. It's at least resolved. And that is not necessarily the path that all team members want you to take, even though it's the right path. And it creates friction. And, I mean, like, friction brews unhappiness. Unhappiness does everything downstream. If there was ever a thing I learned in this process, it was how important your culture really is. And I always believed that Rhino always had a really great culture, and we invested more in our culture than probably any business I know.
- [32:27]
But it actually reinforced how significant of an investment that was and how much we benefit at as a result. And we start peeling those things away, and the culture erodes. It can be catastrophic, for sure.
- [32:39]
A
We got to bring back the Christmas party. Yeah, that's the. That sets the tone. That's the exclamation point. I'm sure we can just go to our CFO and say, hey, why don't you peel off another quarter million bucks for us so we can go run a really cool Christmas party?
- [32:54]
B
I'm glad he doesn't listen to this.
- [32:58]
I can already see him swooping his hair. He gets frazzled now.
- [33:01]
A
Okay, I'm gonna shift gears just a bit more. And thanks for kind of being. I mean, being pretty transparent with. With that. And again, as I tell you listeners today, we are a very successful, strong business, very healthy company. Right. So these are big business.
- [33:15]
B
Yeah. It just doesn't make it not hard. It actually makes it harder.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah.
- [33:18]
B
Harder when you're a big company.
- [33:20]
A
I think it's good, though, because it showed us that we were completely capable of doing this in the first place. Like, you don't know what you don't know, and you kind of have these, like, preconceived notions on, like, how things are. Need to be grown. Like, why we needed a private equity partner for the mental capital piece of it, when really we actually just needed some, like, somebody to affirm that we actually. You do know what you're doing. Like, if you would have done these things, we would have been just fine.
- [33:44]
B
Right.
- [33:44]
A
You know, by the way, I'm still very happy with our decision, you know, of doing it. Timing was perfect. Very pleased. But you've always come.
- [33:52]
B
I'm not unhappy with the decision either. It hasn't come without its challenges. And I think probably everybody who sold their company, especially if they stayed, if they've stayed as Long as we have, like, it comes with challenges.
- [34:03]
A
And listen, marketing companies are hard. I mean, I can tell. We. There's so many out there that I know that reach out to me, right, and ask me, because we all. It's hard for all. Hard for all of us. And I always stick up for everybody because I'm like, hey, listen, no marketing company goes into this thing, man, I'm really gonna fuck over this contractor today. Like, you know, like, that's not normal. Like, shit happens, but nobody's coming in, just trying screw over somebody. It's just, like, shit's hard. And as it grows and scales, there's still, you know, kinks in the chain. There's a. You could have the perfect systems and processes, but it's only as good as the person that's running the system or process.
- [34:32]
B
Right?
- [34:33]
A
So. But you've always kind of stayed behind the scenes. And even though I continue to try and push you out there, I mean, I got you on the freedom stage. Was it. Yeah. Last year. Yeah, last year. To go out there, which is cool. I'm proud of you because, you know, to see you out there in front of those people. But you've always kind of been this quiet little powerhouse. And now more and more people who've gotten to know you know this about you, like, that you are the powerhouse. And then those that have learned that, then go to me and say, oh, that's really the reason Rhino Drew was because of Anna. But in the last year, I'd say even the last, like, year and a half, but now I would even say, let's just. Let's just focus on this last year, because this last year has been enough. But I've seen you.
- [35:16]
In the hardest moments become stronger a little more, a little louder, you know, about your, like, your assertiveness, like, on this is what has to be done. Like, a little more assertive on the things you know need to be done. Because you're kind of stepping into this different level of confidence of, like, okay, almost. It's like, it's this, or like, this is the answer. We're doing this, and this is why. And I've seen you become super decisive. Like, you shifted you sweet. You hit, like, another whole nother gear that didn't, like. I always tell you, like, the. One of the most attractive things about you to me is when we sit in meetings and I, like, watch you do your thing. I'm like, gosh, she's so smart. And she's like, I just. The way you like, you like, you Present things too. And like she just has it figured out. And you're always like six, seven, eight steps ahead, which is awesome. And so it's just like your intelligence is attractive to me, but I've seen it forever. Like I've seen it and watching it forever. And.
- [36:08]
For those who don't know, I'm curveball here.
- [36:13]
Was. We were, we were at Discover Cards, our first, my first like corporate job ever. And she came in to train my class and I was like, God, this chick is super sharp and she's hot. So I got like. But that's what first attracted me. I was like, not only is she good looking, but she's super smart.
- [36:31]
And here we are all these years later. But I noticed it clear back then. But watching you these last even six months, when I get to go home, you and me and we're spending like this is like the same amount of hours that we were spending in the early days, like crazy hours. In your commitment to this business, like, what changed in you? Because now you're just kind of going like, you're like, where you might be hesitant because you're always like a, follow the rules, you know, black and white, follow chain of command. And I'm like, fuck all of that. Like, this is what needs to happen and this is what we're going to do. And I'm willing to take the repercussions of it. You kind of come into a hole another level these last six months. What changed?
- [37:14]
B
You know, I think like, I don't know that I ever really realized maybe I had imposter syndrome or that I thought that like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like the amount of times in new hire classes that I've been like, man, every day this company gets bigger. It's a bigger company than I know what I'm doing. And everybody just like blindly trusts my decision making. But a lot of it's on the fly and just like knee jerk reaction. So I think when you operate in a silo like that, you never really know how well you are doing or if you're good or not or if it was just luck. And I think being put in the position for the 18 months to be sidelined and watch people that I perceived, at least from a resume perspective, I have much stronger talent and more experience and better qualified to do the things that we had to do, not doing it right and me being like that was wrong. We should do it this way. Like maybe reinforced to me that my own natural intuition is probably better than I even perceived. And so now I just am kind of leaning into it. Like, what could go wrong? Right? I mean, at the end of the day, what could go wrong? And I'm also open to the idea when I make a decision and it's wrong to pivot fast. Like, there's nothing that annoys me more, and I think I've seen it more in the last 18 months than ever, is failure to make a decision when no new information is coming in. And it's like, if no new information is coming in, why are we not making a decision? Make the decision. Because to me, the worst thing you could do is not make the decision. You've got the option of make the decision and it's right, and high five, it was right. You've got the option of make the decision and it was wrong, and you figure out it was wrong and you pivot. And then the worst option is do nothing. Because doing nothing gives you no motion either direction or perspective on if you're right or wrong. And so for me, I don't know, this year, it just was like, move with the decisions that feel right if I'm wrong, backtrack, admit when I'm wrong, change what I was wrong about, and move forward.
- [39:16]
A
I like it. I like it. Well, I mean, it's kind of like when you have your back and I.
- [39:20]
B
Still don't want to be out in front of everybody. I'm. I'm not good with the politics of the industry. Like, and there's an element of, like, being out in the front and being out in public and being at events that, like, I don't know, is a level of, like, I'm not made. If I don't like somebody, they know I don't like them. And I'm not good in situations where if I don't like you, I'm not going to fake it. And so, like, I shouldn't be out in places where I don't like people.
- [39:47]
A
But you're a professional, so you're a professional. And if you didn't.
- [39:52]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm not mean. I'm not mean. I'm just saying I just, like, I, like, I don't like the politics of all of it. And so I just love language.
- [40:00]
A
Also is you're a fixer. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm. Case in point, number one for you. And that's a hell of a job to try and fix me. I'm not sure what that means, but. But that is your love language. And so, like, this scenario, in a lot of Ways is kind of like right in your wheelhouse to do now. Did I want this challenge for us? Not necessarily, but we both grew and learned a lot from this. On what we're actually capable of doing at scale. I think the hardest part for both of us is on the EQ side of things is it's like it's tough when people, when you merge these businesses together and people don't really know you and what they think about you is based off of something they heard and not what they actually know. And it bugs me. It bugs me a lot because I'm like, man, no, this is like, this is not who we are. Like, I don't know, we didn't make those decisions that made you feel X, Y, Z way, like it wasn't us. But there's this position you have to take of just stepping up and being a leader and being like, okay, well the bet you, you can say one, say it and it's not going to make any difference. You have to show, right. People change. And so I mean really, you're the one who is like, we're going to call it, right the ship. All right? We have to be. You're the one that has to like, right the ship. Right? Because there was a point when we said, hey, we need to take this thing back over, right? And not that we bought the business back, we didn't buy the business back, but we took back over leadership of the company, the day to day operations of the business. Well, you had, you know, I can, I can specifically remember you and me also came up with a plan like on our, like here's the things we need, we know we need to do now. And these are some of the people that we're going to need. And this is the plan and this is the marketing plan. And like, here's how we can solve xyz. Like you and I have the luxury of being married and figuring these things out together on a weekend, you know.
- [41:48]
But you. What were the first steps that you took to kind of turn the tide for us to kind of start to ship? The ship is we got the ship stopped, now we're starting to turn it.
- [41:58]
B
Yeah.
- [41:59]
A
What were some of those first, like, easy.
- [42:01]
B
I mean, I think, I think it had to happen with the leadership team. And we were in a space that there were not leadership meetings in our organization and everybody operated independently. And I think that to run successful marketing campaigns, collaboration is a necessity because all of our services and products are reliant on each other in some level to be successful. And So I think bringing leaders together and having them work closer together and have them start building relationships and even starting to divide the lines between what legacy company was I part of, was an important part for that to start to downstream. Now it's not all the way through. Right. Like, there's lots of layers of leadership here now, and there's lots of teams and there's been a lot of change. And so it's not completely done. But I do think that that layer of leadership is the most important. That we listened to them, supported them, like, helped to fix the challenges that they experience day to day. And that started to alleviate other friction points that they, you know, were experiencing or that employees were experiencing.
- [43:12]
A
So then I got to piggyback on that. So how did you re. Establish expectations with the leadership team? And what did you learn about who could rise to the challenge and who couldn't?
- [43:21]
B
Oh, man.
- [43:25]
I don't. I think I can read people pretty quickly on, like, if they're going to make it or not. And I've actually, I've done it. And new hire classes, when we meet with new hires, I can identify pretty quickly. This person's got the chops. This one's gonna struggle. And not that I'm 100% right, but I'm like 95% right.
- [43:45]
A
You're pretty good at.
- [43:45]
B
And so I'm pretty good at, like, reading who's gonna make it Just based on a couple of answers. I think extreme ownership and accountability is important for leaders. And like, if you can't admit when something is going wrong, then we cannot fix it. And so if you let pride and ego get in the way of saying, I need help, I'm underwater. I don't know how to do this, or, yeah, this. I missed this. I don't even know how to do that. If you can't do those things or be accountable when it goes wrong, it is going to be an uphill battle. And I respect ownership of problems so much more than deflection and excuses. And so for me, that's a pretty good indicator of, hey, I'll have good candid communication with people and tell them what my expectations are. It can be a struggle for people when they first start reporting to me because my level of directness can be intimidating. But once they work with me a little bit and they understand who I am and the motives behind it, they actually respect and appreciate my level of honesty and understand my commitment to them and to helping them get better. But I think that's the biggest piece is if. If they're not going to have high standards and have accountability, then they will never make it here.
- [45:11]
A
By the way, intuition comes from years of experience. So then your gut kind of knows. And then, of course, you learn what questions to ask to get the answers out of them that, you know, we're going to give you an idea of. Like, okay, yeah, my gut's right.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah, Like, I'll tell people, leaders all the time, if you have red flags in the interview. Anytime I have hired somebody that I had red flags in the interview, I. Those red flags are the same problems that we have when they're on board as an employee. And I, like, the amount of times I've kicked myself and been like, you knew Anna and you did it anyway. And like, it's the same thing. When I start to see those things, I just know I had.
- [45:46]
A
I gave my. I did my first interview, which I've not done. Interview. I'm not.
- [45:50]
B
Your first interview. First one in a long time.
- [45:52]
A
My first interview in a long time. Long, long, long, long time. Because I don't belong in the interview process at all. But this one kind of works alongside me. So I. I do have a good feeling now on what I want from this person. So I'm like, okay, I'll be like, the third. I'll be the third and final interview. And it is funny to think through all the wrong hires I've made because I've made quite a few. I don't have that same intuition that you've got. This is where I think that my EQ probably gets the best of me a little bit. Is like, I really like the person, but I didn't ask the right questions, understand their. The IQ and how much they understand this position, whereas today I do. So I felt really good about my last interview, but not that I want to interview anymore, because I do not. But at least I nailed that one, I think. Well, I guess we're gonna find out.
- [46:32]
B
Yeah.
- [46:33]
A
Okay, so we're, like, coming up on the end of this thing. So I got just two. Two more easy questions. Maybe three if I can get to my third one. This one.
- [46:42]
I'll be curious to hear what your answer is.
- [46:46]
When did you start to feel like. Or have you start to feel. Have you started to feel like, okay, we're back. Rhino's becoming Rhino again.
- [46:59]
B
And if not. Yeah, like we're at a turning point. Like, we're at a really important turning point right now. And like I said, I believe that. Q1, I will maybe instead of just being able to see it in the future, I'll be standing in that moment. Um, but right now, it feels like it's like, just. Just past my arm's length.
- [47:23]
A
We've made a lot of really big changes, huge changes recently. And, like, we're going through a lot of necessary changes. Good, good changes. Like, because we've kind of been through some shit, now we're kind of starting to plateau, which is. Which is great.
- [47:35]
B
And the hardest decisions have all been made.
- [47:38]
A
You know, what's been crazy is, like, you know, we knew. We knew most everybody in the business until the merger happened. And I'm like, how do I not know 100 people or 150 people on our team? You know? And through this process, I've gotten to meet quite a few team members, both legacy that came from Blue Corona side, the new employees. And it kind of feels like old Rhino, you know, like, we're kind of working through the same things and, like, getting to connect and go into meetings together, which is really when you get to know everybody. And, like, you could feel. You can, like, feel the tide turning, which is cool.
- [48:08]
B
Yeah.
- [48:08]
A
And you can feel like. And everybody's kind of saying those things to you, which is great, because it kind of gives us a little bit of affirmation that we're hearing it from others, too. So it does start to feel like we're in that direction. I do agree. I think, Q1, we're standing in it.
- [48:22]
B
Yeah. I think, like, I can feel it. But getting validation from other people that are like, hey, like, I, like, see all these changes. I know how hard you're working, and it's working, and, like, I appreciate it. Those, like, when I get them for sure, are like, the burst of what I need to keep pushing forward when I feel like it's a hard day.
- [48:44]
A
Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a very selfish question. Okay.
- [48:46]
B
Okay.
- [48:47]
A
Very selfish question. I contemplate whether I'd ask this or not, and I want you to give the honest answer, even if it makes me look bad.
- [48:56]
B
Okay.
- [48:59]
A
What's one thing that you learned about me during all this that surprised you? And one thing you learned about our partnership and how we manage business in this process.
- [49:15]
B
I think I've always known this about you, but I think you learned it about yourself, maybe, and now we can have real conversations about it. You have always said, I don't get stressed out. I don't get stressed out. And I was like, that's not true. Everybody gets levels of stress. And so this year, I think that you've been My eye is twitching and I am not sleeping at night. And like, there's all these things. And I think that the, like, reality of, yes, you do get stressed out and maybe you can just push it down in a different way has led to, like, more open dialogue about when things are hard, how hard they are. Okay, what was part two of that question?
- [49:55]
A
It was. And what's one that you learned about our partnership in business? Like, in this process of how we are working together?
- [50:05]
B
I mean, I think that we continue to deploy each other's strengths and we've always had opposite responsibilities here. And I think that there's been more crossover maybe now than ever because it's just like the ability to. We both know everything needs to be done and there's no more. That's your lane or my lane. It's like we're in the same car.
- [50:26]
A
It feels old school, honestly. It does feel old school. Like I can specifically remember the days when we were traveling places and like. And it does feel kind of like we're just tackling the business. It's just a big ass business now.
- [50:38]
B
I mean, I've been on the road more this year than, than I have been in the last five years.
- [50:42]
A
Yeah. And there's something cool about walking out of some of these meetings and knowing like, man, we're a really fucking strong company right now and we know it and this affirms it and now they know it and, and not just saying it to like, hope. That's what. No, it's what it is. And we get to go and do these things together is like, those are some pretty cool moments. Like we get to walk out with that. We've had a couple of those this year when we get to high five and like, oh, yeah.
- [51:09]
Well, thank you. Yes, I, I have definitely. Ryan, have you felt my stress this year at all?
- [51:13]
B
Yeah, I figured it was.
- [51:15]
A
I've dealt with quite a bit of it and I've been pretty open about it, you know, and even with like, you know, we're. I just talking about this, you know, I won't say who said it in one of our, in our text group this morning with me and some of the guys, you know, we all go through it. We're all in it. We're all in variations of it. All of us, everybody is in some variation of it. And. But this year I would say has been the hardest and I've kind of let it go more. Maybe not let it go, but like, been more open about it. And I could tell. Yeah. I mean, my Eye twitching, like, non stop. And I was like, what the hell is happening? And it's like, I'm like, you know, asking Chad GPT and he's like, potassium problem eating bananas. Like, still twitching. No, but. But I do feel good, like, that you can talk about it, because you can't, like, when you're having a shit day, week, month, all the above, I can share it with you. And it was, like, nice to be able to share that with some of my friends and then to validate, like, this is just. This is just what it feels like before it blows up again and gets scaled again. The moment that we're in is actually making us a better business for sure. It's making us better human beings. And it has me thinking about, okay, like, I'm being tested right now. Like, this is just the moment when we're, you know, being challenged. It's the darkest before the light type of situation. And that's how I'm, like, taking comfort and feeling like there must be something really fucking big coming first. Because if it's any indication of the challenges we've been going through, of how big it's gonna be, it's gonna be really, really big.
- [52:40]
B
Yeah. And the whole journey has been ups and downs. Right. Like, they just. They seem more extreme when you're in them. And then when you get to the back end, you can, like, rationalize and put them into better perspective. But when you're walking through it, it's hard.
- [52:54]
A
And.
- [52:55]
B
And I think that people are more open now than ever. And, like, being honest about that, it's not easy. Like, it maybe used to be cool to just pretend like, it's easy and everybody just knows what they're doing. And I think it's become more accepted to say, like, no, I don't really know what I'm doing, and I'm figuring it out, and it's hard, and I make mistakes. And I think that people appreciate it more when you're that type of person than when you fake it.
- [53:19]
A
You know, I think I had to learn is I've always, like. I think historically, I've always been a pretty optimistic guy, but when you're in these stressful situations, you actually don't know how to handle it. It makes you pessimistic, which is. And then you don't know how to deal with it.
- [53:31]
B
Yeah.
- [53:31]
A
And you're kind of come across as like, an. Like, I would come across as an. Even though, like, I'm not, but it's because I don't know how to. I Don't know how to, like, not have resting face. Right. You know, like, because I'm just. Because I'm just. It's just weighing on me, you know, and. And I'm. Don't know how to get out of it. And so you just kind of like, okay, well, just doing the tasks of the day, you know, each day is just checking boxes and getting the things done until, like, I hope I feel different tomorrow, you know, and journaling was helpful.
- [54:00]
Going to the gym was helpful. Like, all those things were helpful. But even that fades a little bit. Like, you kind of. Kind of. You have to start stacking some wins to, like, feel like you can get out of it. And so it's like, when were the wind's gonna come, you know? But then you don't. You're. You're not like, you were getting wins, but you weren't recognizing them.
- [54:18]
B
Right.
- [54:19]
A
You know, crazy, man. This journey has been a hell of a ride. But it's cool that you and I got to do it, you know, get to do it together. I mean, I don't know many that are. That are doing what we're doing together.
- [54:31]
Last question for you. And this is gonna be for all of our listeners who are, you know, considering going down. I think private equity is going to be very, very, very, very busy in 26. Everything points to those same signs, which means there's gonna be a lot of really great opportunities for our listeners if they decide they want to go that route.
- [54:49]
And it's okay. Like I said, we're talking about all the hardship that we're going through, But I also think some of that is private equity agnostic. Like, if you're going through some major scale, like, you're going to go through some of this shit. So I don't want to deter anybody because like we said, we both, like, this company's very strong. It's very successful. We've been challenged, but we made the right decision because I think the end result is going to get us to where we initially wanted to go.
- [55:14]
B
Agreed.
- [55:15]
A
It's just, this is the hardest path to take. So. So my last thing for you is if you could talk directly to another founder who's listening or anywhere about taking private equity money, because once you take a dollar, shit changes. What's the one thing you would tell them to prepare for?
- [55:38]
B
Mm.
- [55:40]
I mean, I would say, like, the hardest part is probably preparing for that you're not the end of the line anymore. Like, that is. That's a hard one. Like, when you're used to just being able to make decisions that you know are right and that, like, in your gut, like, is the right move for the business. And now you're getting permission. And sometimes when you're getting permission, it's from somebody who doesn't understand enough to be the permission giver. And it can be frustrating. And you just gotta be prepared for those kinds of situations.
- [56:10]
A
And I will tell you, don't let your pride get in the way, because it will fuck you over if you let your pride get in the way in a lot of ways. And, you know, you have to be okay with. You know, hopefully you're not the smartest person in the room. Right. Like, it's. That's kind of why you do some of these things.
- [56:25]
B
We've got way more smart people here than me now. And I know you always say I'm super smart, but we've got that really incredible talent.
- [56:31]
A
They're smart in their own little areas. Right. Like, but, you know, I would encourage you if that's what you want to do. Like, there's so many different ways that you can skin the cats. Probably a poor thing to say, but you don't have to sell the whole business. You can sell minority, you can sell majority. Like, there's options, and there's a shitload of private equity partners now that you can choose from.
- [56:52]
B
Yep.
- [56:52]
A
Right. And if you want to reach out to me and ask my opinion, I'll give them to you.
- [56:55]
B
I think, like, talking to people at those businesses at all levels, I would talk to every single person in their portfolio, like, at this point, at least under the. In understanding the good and the bad. Because I think normally you're going to get the version or the people you get referred to are going to be the ones that are gonna give you the glow. And I think, like, talking to everybody so that you can just understand what is both sides of it would be valuable.
- [57:21]
A
I agree. Well.
- [57:23]
That'S it. That's a wrap for the 300th episode. I appreciate you being open and honest. I can't remember the last time we did one of these, but a long time. It was a. I see I'm looking at a picture of me, you, and Tommy on the banner right now. That was the last one we did. Oh, that's when we had Tommy weird questions. Yeah, that was a fun episode. I forget what episode that was, but we were asking Tommy, like, all about his insecurities and, like, that. It was so good. But that's cool because he's like, him and Brie, a perfect Example of those that, you know, Tommy, you see how successful he. And he's incredibly successful. You look behind the door and guess what? He gets his ass kicked too. Just like we get our ass kicked, you know, and it's just we all power through, you know, and he'll tell you the same thing. Just bring a bunch of, you know, smart people around you who can help you execute, who care, you know, and we're playing the same game. He, like, he. He does such a great job with such a massive, you know, thousand plus team members of maintaining a culture. It's impressive.
- [58:15]
B
It is impressive.
- [58:16]
A
And that goes to show you, like, that's. That how much actually matters. And I'm glad to see that we're. That we're building that back slowly, you know, but we're on our way. You can feel it. So to our listeners, I guess, I guess my hope from this one is one. One that you can just hear our journey. I mean, even though we're not contractors, a lot of this stuff is applicable, like, just from basic business. And I think that scaling of business is worth. It is. And I think that.
- [58:47]
If you always make it just about a number, like, I just want to hit beat 10 million. I want to be 20 million. There's no depth to it. Like, you got to think, what do you get from that 10 million? What do you get from the 20 million? And if it's just money, then whatever. Like, I found that for us, we need it to be deeper than it just be a number. Like, what's that actually going to do for us? Does that mean that we've scaled our customers, which is what we always gave us. Like, you know, we always gave us joy, was we could see that we're directly impacting these human beings and their businesses. And, oh, it also gave us resources to continue to do community service, which, by the way, are people talking shit, because I'm doing. We're doing community service. Not for the. Not for the pat on the back of doing community service. We've always done it since the beginning. Right. And we do a ton of shit nobody even knows about. But the point is, is that we used to build our business so that we can continue to do community service at scale.
- [59:40]
B
Yep.
- [59:40]
A
Because that's what fills our cup is those types of things. But regardless, like, whatever you plan on doing with your business is your business. Right. And our hope is just to use this podcast to share our story and our journey. And maybe what that does is it triggers you to think, like, okay, I want to go into this and I didn't think about that part. And I'm going to ask that question like, maybe you didn't know a CEO could leave a private equity partner up. The whole plan. So hopefully you're able to take something away from this. Any parting words for our listeners?
- [60:09]
B
Gonna be a fun 2026.
- [60:10]
A
It's gonna be a hell.
- [60:11]
B
2025 was wild. 2026 will be fun.
- [60:14]
A
I'm excited for it, too. To our listeners, you gotta do everything, but you got to do something. No Zero days.