Stay Fly: Lessons on Business, Resilience, and Relevancy with Sugar Ray’s Mark McGrath

Summary

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Podcast Summary: To The Point – "Stay Fly: Lessons on Business, Resilience, and Relevancy with Sugar Ray’s Mark McGrath"

Podcast: To The Point – Home Services Podcast
Host: Chris Yano (RYNO Strategic Solutions)
Guest: Mark McGrath (Sugar Ray frontman, entertainer)
Date: April 7, 2026

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Overview

In this dynamic and engaging episode, Chris sits down with Mark McGrath—well-known as the charismatic frontman of Sugar Ray—to explore themes of business resilience, staying relevant in competitive markets, and the crucial human qualities that fuel long-term success. With humor, honesty, and plenty of memorable anecdotes, Mark connects his journey in music to universal lessons for home service company owners and entrepreneurs. The conversation moves fluidly between stories from Mark’s musical ascent, actionable strategies on networking and branding, and candid insights into failure, perseverance, and the importance of genuine connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Relevance in Cutthroat Industries

• Music & Home Services Parallels: Both face immense competition, the ongoing challenge to “stay relevant,” and the need to keep evolving to survive and thrive.

  "You can be the best plumber in the world today, and you will make it... You can be the best singer in the world. You’re not going to make it. It’s truly a lottery and a dice roll in the music business.” – Mark McGrath [05:00]

• Breaking the mold: Success is no longer about following one set path—creativity and breaking convention often win.

2. Luck, Preparation, and Networking

• The Nature of Luck:

  "Luck never taps you on the shoulder when you’re sitting on your couch. It’s all outside your front door. The more people you meet, the better your chances are of becoming successful.” – Mark [06:34]

• Persistent Action: Don’t wait—network relentlessly and be open to every opportunity, even if it feels like a reach.

3. Emotional Connection, Brand, and Customer Experience

• Music triggers emotional recall; brands should do the same:

  “When you own a contracting company...you have to try to leave some sort of feeling to make them want to continue to use your business. Your brand needs to make them feel something.” – Chris [14:10]

• People buy from people: Remember names, be kind, and build relationships—those are the differentiators that last.

  "Manners and being kind...made me millions.” – Mark [15:00]

4. Staying Humble, Grateful, and Hungry

• Balance Fun and Discipline: Mark admits to mistakes but underlines the importance of showing up, keeping your word, and having a support system.
• Never Get Complacent:

  “Success is the second hardest thing you’ll do in any industry...Staying there is the hardest.” – Mark [29:35]

• Continuous Hustle:

  “I’m dumb enough to think right now, at 58 years old, I can still write a hit song...That belief also motivated me at 25.” – Mark [30:40]

5. Surviving Setbacks & The Power of Teamwork

• Owning failures, learning and pushing through: Failure is unavoidable—but it’s necessary for growth. After Sugar Ray’s first album failed, Mark and his bandmates doubled down, learned hard lessons, and wrote the hit "Fly" from a place of desperation.

  “Your darkest times get rid of 90% of your competition. That’s the good news. The bad news is you gotta go through it.” – Mark [61:29]

• Don’t take yourself out of the game; resilience is everything:

  “Don’t you decide when it’s over. Take it to the edge...Keep fighting.” – Mark [27:07]

• It takes a team:

  “It really was a village building Sugar Ray...I would never ever downplay how valuable every member of Sugar Ray has been and was to the success.” – Mark [78:21]

6. Business of Entertainment & Evolving Revenue Streams

• Understanding multiple income streams: Touring, merchandise, licensing, and careful management are all crucial for sustainability, especially as direct music sales have eroded in the digital age.

  “Live business is where bands make their money now...There’s no show that a band is not grateful for now.” – Mark [49:15]

• Management & Delegation: Successful artists and business owners know when to seek help and professionalize their operations, freeing themselves to focus on what only they can do.

7. Social Media, Technology, and Modern Paths to Success

• Adapting to the digital era:

  “The only path towards success in music today is on TikTok and having followers...It's never been easier to become famous, but never been harder to stay there.” – Mark [74:48]

• The same core principles apply: Grind, network, remain authentic, and build the right infrastructure—just now with new tools.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-belief and defying the odds:

  “My problem was I couldn’t sing, I couldn’t write a song, and I couldn’t play an instrument. Three small little obstacles on the way to...success in the music business.” – Mark [05:18]

• On the importance of follow-through:

  “[I] returned a call I had no interest in returning...I called them, go down there...Two weeks later, I was hosting Extra. You never know what’s on the other end of that line.” – Mark [67:03]

• On humility and gratitude:

  “I have the same friends I’ve had for over 50 years...when I’ve got out of line, they smack me right back in line.” – Mark [32:24]

• On failure vs. success:

  “You’re going to find whether you’re worthy of success in your darkest times. Because your darkest times get rid of 90% of your competition.” – Mark [61:29]

• On authenticity:

  “If you’re not authentic to who you are, it’s gonna crumble in front of you.” – Mark [76:12]

• On relationships:

  “When you’re lucky enough to make some friends in this business...you add more friends to your contacts than doctors, you’re in a good spot.” – Mark [81:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Relevance & Success in Competitive Markets [04:00–08:30]
• Luck & Networking [06:34–08:13]
• Branding & Emotional Connection [14:10–15:47]
• Kindness, Manners, and Sales [15:47–17:19]
• Staying Disciplined Amid Success [29:35–32:24]
• Handling Failure and Recovery [60:39–64:14]
• Candid Rapid Fire Questions: Decisions, Mistakes, Advice [66:38–76:39]
• Legacy, Modern Music Industry, and Social Media [74:41–78:04]
• Final Reflections: Treating People Well, Lasting Relationships [79:44–81:46]

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Final Lessons and Takeaways

• Work ethic, resilience, and kindness are universally transferable—no matter your industry.
• Luck happens to those who show up, say yes, and work hard.
• Branding is about creating feelings, not just logos or jingles.
• Staying at the top is harder than getting there; relentless humility and hunger are signs of true professionals.
• Never downplay the importance of teamwork—no true success story is solo.
• Adapting to new tools (social media, technology) is essential, but foundational principles never go out of style.
• People remember how you treat them, and it impacts everything further down the road.

“You don’t have to do everything, but you have to do something. No perfect zero days.” – Chris [82:27]

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For contractors and entrepreneurs:
Mark McGrath’s journey is proof that humility, perseverance, and the right relationships underpin every lasting achievement—whether on stage or in business.

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Transcript

[A]

This is to the Point a Rhino experience voted one of the top home services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the and getting to the point.

[B]

Hey, what's up to the Point listeners? It's your boy, Chris O. Do we have a podcast episode today? I actually, you know, normally I don't, you know, record it or like write an intro out for the guests, but man, I was like, you know, this morning I was taking a shower. Is it weird if I say I was thinking about our guest?

[A]

Hell no.

[B]

And I was thinking like, oh man, I got to come up with a really creative intro. But I was like in the shower trying to think through what it was and I'm like, okay, I got to hop out and try and remember this. I'm. I'm about to write this shit down because I'm not going to remember between then and now, so. So I'm actually going to do something a little bit different now. Our co host, Chad isn't on here today, which is a real bummer because I know how much he loves music. Now. He saw our guest at the last Rhino X just earlier this year. Not much of a music guy, but we got him dancing a little bit to, to our guests, so that was a win. But he's not on here today. He's actually at his kids soccer game, so he's not missing anything. He's just going to make it boring anyway. So this would be much better without him. But I am excited for our guests. You're going to think, you're going to think, you listeners are going to think, what in the hell is this guy going to teach me about my business? Well, I'm certain he could teach you how to be fly in a competitive industry so that someday you too can be at the top of the charts or how to stay relevant. So when you wake up every morning, you tackle the day with absolute confidence. Because when it's over, it's all said and done. You've had a great career.

[A]

So, wow.

[B]

I want to welcome my homie, my homie. The pride of Corona del Mar Sea Kings, 1998 People magazine's sexiest rocker. Yeah, buddy. Award winning singer and songwriter of four bangers, in my opinion. Sugar Ray, front man. My, my good buddy now, Mr. Mark McGrath.

[A]

Welcome, buddy brother Chris. What an intro.

[B]

You like that?

[A]

What an intro.

[B]

You like that?

[A]

I was wondering why you're gonna wrap up when it's over and when it's over, it's really over. But you forgot one thing, Chris, and I'm a little, a little Bummed out. You forgot Sharknado 2, 3, and 6. All three of those bad boys. I was in Sharknado series.

[B]

How could I forget?

[A]

How could you? It shows you where my thing thespian skills are.

[B]

Well, you've got more than just that. You have more than just that. But those are the. Those are the standouts, huh?

[A]

Well, yeah, that and Joe Dirt, too, because Kid Rock didn't want to do it. And Scooby Doo, which is probably what people know us from the best. You know, growing up, Scooby Doo was my cartoon, bro. I'm an old man. So in the early 70s, when I was watching cartoons, Scooby Doo was it. And that. To ask to be part of the live action movie was. I mean, people are gonna laugh, but that was one of the highlights of our career. Got to do a song for the mov movie. We were in the movie, and we filmed it on an island called Moreton island off the Gold coast of Australia. And it was seven days of the most insane parting I've ever done in my life. They just emptied the model agencies in Australia, put them on this tiny island the size of Catalina, and it all looked like Spooky Island. We lived and died on Spooky island for seven days. And one of the best times of our life. So it was super fun.

[B]

Well, now I've got. I got fomo. I missed out on that one. That sounded like a great time.

[A]

Yeah, no, that was a good one. We were crawling off that island going. We thought. We thought. We partied. We went out there. Those Australians, they. They hit different. Chris.

[B]

They know how to throw. They know how to throw down. Down under.

[A]

That's for sure. They do the thumb, that. Down under, mate.

[B]

Hey, hey. You know what I was gonna ask you, you know, so, you know, one. It's cool to have you on here, right? And. And actually, kind of what we're gonna leave. We're gonna lean into is, you know, we'll talk. You know, I like you sharing some of the stories and stuff like that. Our guests are gonna like to hear that and then. But there's some relevancy here, too, that I want to. I want to hit on. And it's going to be around. You know, you're in arguably one of the most competitive things to become successful in. Right? Like, the music industry is incredibly cutthroat. Very, very difficult to. To not only get through, but then to stay relevant, you know, and to maintain some relevancy. Well, listen, a lot of our contractors that listen to this podcast have the same issue. Right. Like they're trying to become relevant, you know, and create, you know, some, some brand awareness, like grow these big businesses and then keep them big. Right. So there's some, some sustainability there that really matters. But, and I'll tap into some of that because people are like, chris, that's a fucking reach maybe, but I'm going to get there. Okay, So I think I can walk you through a couple of things in your future. And we, and we didn't script this, so, you know, the listeners, like, I had the.

[A]

Let me just let me touch on something, Chris, before. I don't want to forget this because that's a good point. I think I'm in one of the only industries that's a dream industry for people. Meaning you can be the very best at what you do in this industry and, and not make it.

[B]

Yep. Yeah.

[A]

Now you might be, you could be the best plumber in the world today, and you will make it because you are the best plumber. You're the best, you know, electric. You're going to make it. You can be the best singer in the world. You're not going to make it. So it's truly a lottery and a dice roll in the music business. Now, that's what makes it so exciting. But that's also what makes it so unfair. And that's why a guy like me snuck in who can barely sing, because I was never going to hear no ever. You work at. Tell me no. You know, they always say plan A was, plan B was always plan A. That was always it for me. My problem was I couldn't sing, I couldn't write a song, and I couldn't play an instrument. Three small little obstacles on the way to trying to be successful in the music business. My point is this, man. You know, sometimes people like lean into Lane, say, I'm not this guy. I can't do that. I can never own my own business. You can do anything you want to do. And especially in today's world where you can break down convention, it's just not one way to do things anymore. And it's never been easier to do things in an industry, but it's never been harder to stay relevant. So two good points you made right there, Chris. I just wanted to tap on that real quick. That's really good.

[B]

That's actually, that's really thoughtful. I, I, yeah, good point.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Well, you, you, you just go to Nashville. Go to Nashville. Go down, you know, and just go out there and listen to these. But you're like, how did this person not make it? Like, how exactly? They're just saying exactly. They're singing the tootsies.

[A]

Serendipity, you know, luck. Some people take themselves out of the game, you know, just stay in the game, keep going forward. And I say. I mean, I came up with saying a couple years ago, and I was pretty proud of myself. Luck never taps you on the shoulder when you're sitting on your couch. I've never seen it happen. It's all outside your front door. The more people you meet, the more networking you do, the better your chances are of becoming successful. You know, I mean, luck collides at hard work and opportunity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's where it is. And everybody, Chris, and I think you'll say it, too. Luck is the one variable we can't account for, but you need to put yourself in position to receive it. And, Chris, I walked down Broadway in Nashville and heard a guy singing Sugar Ray song better than I could ever sing it in the world. And I was with my manager, and he said the same thing to me. And I go, that's why the music business is so unfair right there. So I think. But do you think you can't not try because of the odds? You know what I mean? Because it is still a Dream Weaver scenario. And when you can push through the mu Lu, if you can get through all the insanity of this business, get there and sort of get your bearings and stay there, it's a beautiful place to be. I love what I do every day. You saw us on stage, Chris. I'm so grateful you had us at your. At your party. I'm grateful you and I connected and become friends. It's an honor and a pleasure. And that's one of the fringe benefits of this job. You're lucky enough, you have a good show, but if you're. If you're really lucky, you get to be a couple friends. And I'm just so grateful. After all these years, still do something I love every day. Wake up and ask yourself. If you love it, don't ask anybody else. And, you know, if you love, it'll never become work. And that's in any business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you understand that.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I'm. I'm actually going to dig into that, but I want to. I want to talk about something right before that. What I'm saying I'm going to dig into is you're kind of going down the path of, like, you know, you can't just sit there and do like, you got to Go out and network. You got to do the hard work, like all the grunt work to get, you know, because luck is when preparation meets opportunity, is another way that people will phrase that.

[A]

And I was trying to say it, but I messed it up. You're like, I'm going to correct them on that.

[B]

You actually. You actually said it a good way. I was just saying there's another way. And the way I learned it was. Was that way. But it's the same thing. It's the same concept. You got to go out and like, sometimes you get. You got to create your own luck. You know, you got to go and be active to create your own luck. And so I'm completely tracking with you. And I want to talk about that because I actually want to. I want to walk you through that piece because you. You didn't get rolling until after you're even out of college. So it's like you had that little gap after college before you ever started. Cause 97 was like, first off, 97 was the year I graduated high school. And guess what? I was playing in my 19. Wait, hey. 1991. Geostorm bright yellow with the 2 with the tens in the back bumping a little. I just wanna put your arms around me, Chris.

[A]

No, I got you. I got you. And that. That was just a dream scenario. Yeah. I don't mean to interrupt you, man. I'm gonna interrupt you a lot because it's what I do. Because I'm. I've been excitable, as you can see. Yeah, but. Yeah, go ahead, Chris.

[B]

Yeah, so. So we're. We're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to how you got to that. Right? We're gonna get to that. And. And, And. But I want to talk about something real quick. So. I love music. I've always been a music lover. Like, my. My mom got me into that. She used to own a banco hall and DJed and all stuff. And like, so we. So I've been around it my whole life. I know so many songs. Like, some I'm like a human jukebox. And you know, one of my friends. So. So I'm back one more second. You guys were. Before you kind of came. I'm not sure what you would classify Sugar Ray as if it was more pop. If it was what. But I hate to almost say that, but it's kind of like where you kind of fell in that pop world. But before, you guys were trying to do like the new metal thing, which I think is. Is what you were trying to play. Around with and. And new metal, I think is hard for people to understand. So to give you an example, like a Lincoln Park. Lincoln park would be in that general. In that vicinity. And just a fun fact. I don't think I ever told you this, but, you know, Chester Bennington was one of my buddies, one of my friends.

[A]

I didn't know that. So my friend as well. So when I first got in the world.

[B]

Awesome. You know, rest in peace, Chester Chazzy. Chaz.

[A]

Indeed.

[B]

And so I met him out here when I first moved to Phoenix because he used to be in a band called Gray Days in the early days. And so when I moved out, one of his guitarists worked with. Worked my mom, who moved out ahead of me. So she's like, chris doesn't know anybody. Let me introduce him to some people. And so I met those guys like right when I moved out here in. Wow. 99. So. And that was right before he blew up with, you know, Mike and the. And the guys. And so I got to go on like lots of different shows and hang out with those guys backstage and we. We had some great times.

[A]

I bet. I bet those guys are, you know, throw down on stage too, man. Chester, one of the best voices ever in the history of rock and roll. I mean, that's just not hyperbole. That's just. I mean, Chris Cornell, rest his soul, tell you that very thing, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, both amazing guys, but it's. But they were in that new metal world, right? And.

[A]

And you know, so Biscuit, Papa Roach.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

All those fans. You know what?

[B]

I think, you know, the first time. The first time I saw you, dude was at. It was. I think it was Vans. Was the Vans warped tour in 97 or 98 somewhere around there. Somewhere.

[A]

Exactly. Yep.

[B]

And it was like Offspring was there, who's still out doing his thing and killing it.

[A]

Social D and Kill D was there.

[B]

Everclear, I think was there. Everclear, I think Blink was even at that one.

[A]

Blink182 was there as well. Yep, Blink was there. Mighty Mighty. Boss Tones, Roll Crown Millen, Colin Rancid. Sick of it all. So many great bands. I was. I was in heaven there. Hepcat, this great ska band from la. Really fun. God, that was real Big Fish. It was sky heavy too. Remember? 97 was real sky heavy. Yeah.

[B]

So that was such a fun time because I just graduated high school and it was like, prepare for college. And that was like that summer. That summer, man, was so. It was so good. And this is like what it takes me back to so, and music has a way of doing that right, like you can hear a song or an artist and it takes you back to whatever, which I think is part of the emotional connection that makes it, you know, have sustainability. In home services, speed to lead is everything. Chirp stands out. By transforming your communication strategy with Chirp, accelerate your lead response time with instant sms, text messaging, email and ringless voicemail automation. Chirp's cutting edge technology ensures you're the first and the most persistent, helping you close more deals than ever. But that's not all. Say goodbye to missed opportunities with Chirp's incredible follow up system. Keep your leads engaged and moving smoothly through your sales funnel without lifting a finger. And with Chirp deep integrations with top CRMs like Service Titan, Housecall Pro and Jobber, you can launch laser targeted campaigns to connect with the exact right leads at the exact right time. Automation creates efficiency. Efficiency unlocks scalability. With Chirp, you can automate speed to lead, estimate follow ups, rehash abandoned call follow ups, cancel job follow ups, review requests outbounding to your list, annual reminders, membership expiration follow ups and so much more. So stop chasing leads, capture them, connect faster and close more deals with Chirp. Contact Chirp today and elevate your communication game.

[A]

Lots of music is so powerful like that, dude. Like, it'll paint a picture for you. We're gonna take you back there. You'll, you'll smell the back seat of a car if you want to. You'll, you'll, you'll see the view you were at. I mean, music is life, bro. It's just, it's this beautiful gift of giving back memories and making them colorful in front of you whether they're good or bad. Music is always a companion to all of us. It's a gift from the gods.

[B]

You know that so and so here I completely agree with you because it's, I love that. I wish I could bottle up that, that feeling, right, and sell that feeling of what you have when you feel that thing the best. And when you, and when you think about like these guys are listening, like, why the fuck does this matter, Chris? Well, like when, when you own a contracting company, like you don't have that to give someone, right? But you have to try to leave some sort of feeling to make them want to continue to use your business again or some sort of feeling about your brand or your service that makes them want. So you are trying to create some sort of personal connection in a different way. It's just like you're creating your brand. Like your brand needs to make them feel something.

[A]

And now it's an exchange. It's an exchange, and it's not necessarily the product you were offering. It's. It's you. It's your essence. Do you want to be around that person? You know, and like manners, Chris. And manners. Manners and being kind is one thing I try to tell. I don't care what business you're in. You know, we're starting to lose common courtesy. And having manners has almost become uncool. You remember names, okay? And you apply names every time you see somebody. You're going to be successful in life, I promise you. Doesn't mean you're going to be a billionaire, but you're going to have a good life. Remember names and be kind to people. I know it sounds simple, but are you doing that every day? And it's. It's made me millions of dollars in my life remembering names. We'll get. We'll get to that. Well, you.

[B]

You use it.

[A]

You.

[B]

You use. So. Because I'm. I'm a salesman by nature. Really great sales people know how to incorporate the name because when you say someone, there's a different feeling attached to it when you. You remember that name. It's simple, common courtesy. I get it. So.

[A]

Means you care. Means you care. You care.

[B]

You. So here's where of all the artists that I've hired for Rhino X or for my Christmas parties, and I've had quite a few, I've name dropped a few of them. Yeah, I was telling the story because somebody's like, well, you're gonna have. You're gonna have Martin McGrath on the podcast. Like, how the hell did that go down? And I was like, I'm gonna tell you, this was like, the easiest, like, back. Like, we typically will go back into the green room before and meet the artists and, you know, like, we've had Nelly for a few shows and Nelly was a friend. Has a friend of a friend. Right. So I was able to get him through a friend of mine who's friends with Nelly and, like, so we've got to go and hang with him probably three or four times at different events. Great guy. Yeah, it's just. It's just different. But dude, we go back. We go back. For those who don't know, here's a. Here's a little Insider secret. Mark McGrath is a massive Tiny Tim fan. Loves Tiny Tim. Huge Tiny Tim. Tiny Tim fan. Well, I'll. I'll get to. To that. But. But the point is. That's actually, there's a funny story there. Funny story there.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

But we go back to the green room and I do it. Rhino X the last one. And I swear to you this, I feel like we just ran to an old college friend who I ain't seen in a long time and we just hit it off instantly and next thing you know we're doing some picklebacks, you know. But then they were like, hey guys, show starts in like, you know, five minutes. You got, you gotta go. Because we were just hanging out back there, having a good time. I was like, oh shit, we better get after it. So we just.

[A]

Anybody who's ever met you is your friend. You've got a wonderful way about you. You're very engaging, you're humble. You know, who doesn't want to be around people like that? You got a great energy that's infectious. And you're just a guy that tries to maximize every opportunity in a room. And those are people I want to be around. You know what I mean? And it's, it's, I, I, I'm probably rehashing the most basic one on one sales things, Chris, that you're just an absolute crusher on. But you and I haven't really had a chance to really talk about things like this. And I just felt an instant connection to you, bro, you know, And I think you are a salesman at heart, but all the qualities you have are inherent to you. You're not trying to sell anything when you're meeting people. You're trying to maximize a good time and a pleasant exchange in a room.

[B]

And that's why you're so successful than then that's it. I just, I want to make the most of every experience and I don't necessarily have some like, you know, thing that I'm expecting down the road. I just expecting that moment to be great, you know, and I want to make the most of it. So the fact that we get to stretch this out because we create a friendship is like a bonus, right? That's a win for us both. Appreciate you saying that.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

So I want to now I want to kind of get into just a little bit of the, you know, the, the, you know, the dirt that like not even so much the dirt but like the grindy part, you know, the dirty part of getting to, you know, finally getting to pop with fly. And you. I know I found out you co wrote this. I had the best freaking idea. The best idea. Because I own a roofing company called Redbird Roofing. And best what birds they fly. So I thought we got a great connection here, we could use that. And I was like, oh, Mark co wrote the song that changed things a little bit. So. But damn it, he got it immediately.

[A]

Immediately. I love it.

[B]

I was like, oh my God, this could really work. But, but I want to talk about the grind leading up to it because again, like, and not that I've, I've, I've, I've understand exactly all the things that you went through, but you know, like the SoCal, you know, scene was crazy. This, the music scene is, was complicated. Like, it's hard. It's like there's so much going on to break through, actually have some, some success, man. It takes a lot of, a lot of effort. And so I want to talk a little bit about leading up to that, so. Because a little bit of Mark's story and like the super high levels, you know, I, you know, from high school, I think you went to, you went to usc, right? And then, and then you. For communication. Is that what it was?

[A]

Communication? I tried to go business, tried to take the easiest business class there at usc. I was failing so miserably. And my dad, rest his soul, was kind enough to pay for usc. And fathers out there know how expensive USC is now and was then. And he goes, if you don't get a 3.0, I'm yanking your ass out of college. And my dad was an old school Don Draper type of guy. He meant what he said and said what he meant, you know. And so this app I was getting in the easiest business math class was going to drop my GPA way below 3.0 and I was going to fail out my first semester at usc. I remember this math teacher who's the business, the business class I was taking, he took me aside and said, mark, if you change your major, I will give you a C minus. And that C minus would have kept me 3.0. I go, done deal, I'll change it tomorrow. And so I looked around me and I saw all the football players and cheerleaders were taking communications classes. And I go, that's for me. Because I was 18, I don't know what the hell I was doing. So then I went to communications and found out what it meant later. But yeah, that's my story, how I became a communications major. And I was lucky enough, that's where I kind of found where my, my, my, my broadband was and my, my smarts were. So I was lucky enough to get a degree in communications. Thank God to that Professor Chris, I wouldn't be here. Another serendipitous event is why I'm talking.

[B]

Hey, were you the same? Was your personality the same then as it is now because you're so outgoing?

[A]

I would say it was. You know, I think being on stage for the last 35 years has brought a lot more out of me. You know, I think it's made me a bit more of a smash. I think I was a little bit more reserved, but I was kind of in high school, I was on the varsity basketball team. I was kind of into music. I had, believe it or not, I had highlights in my hair, and I thought it was John Taylor from Duran Duran. And I love music, but I wouldn't commit to it. But I was a basketball guy, but it wasn't all in, you know, I got a couple Division 3 offers to play hoops, but I wanted to go to major university. So I didn't really figure out who I was until I kind of got to college. And then music became my focus. I tried to walk on the basketball team at usc, and there was a coach there named George Raveling, who's a Hall of Fame coach. He just passed away recently. And I tried out for the team. And they go, mark, we notice you don't really have a strong left hand. You can shoot the lights out all day. We're going to keep on the practice squad. You don't get to travel, you don't get a uniform. We, we practice every day five, and we'll reevaluate you next year whether you're going to make the team. And I looked the coach in the face and I go, coach, is this the end of my basketball career? And he goes, I think it is. So. I think it is. And so I was so fun. My dream of being the point guard for the Lakers was over. And I remember going back to college uni dorm at usc, and they had MTV on, and I saw David B. Roth jumping off a kick drum. And I go, that looks fun. And so that kind of came my focus of music. And then that's how I kind of got into it. So I never really took, to answer your question, the most verbose and garrulous way, Chris, I didn't really know who I was in college. You know, I wasn't this sort of outgoing person. It wasn't like I wasn't a shrinking violet, but I hadn't really found out who I was yet, or we had really wanted to do, or I was kind of lying to myself. I always know I wanted to be like, like on stage, you know, But I was kind of lying to myself because I never thought I could do it. I think it brough out the reality of what goals and dreams I want to trace. And I'm grateful for college for that, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I had no clue either. I went to. I tell this story all the time. I went to, you know, college for, you know, four years to get an associate's degree. That takes most people too in, in criminal justice. And then I got a DUI and I screwed it all up. So call it serendipitous, call it what you want, but it worked.

[A]

I'm so on brand. Chris, I love you, man. It worked out great.

[B]

It worked in my favor. I did learn a good social game when I was in college and that worked to my advantage. So I was pretty good.

[A]

I bet. I bet.

[B]

Hey, this is going to shock you. This is going to shock you. So I was, you know, I was a fraternity guy and I was the party starter. It was like when everybody got together, they knew like, okay, Chris, it's go time. And I was.

[A]

You were the.

[B]

I was the Burger Kreischer. Yeah. Except I look much better than Bert Kreischer.

[A]

But.

[B]

But I was the party starter. And I've always kind of been that. Even today, like, I ha to miss out on, on anything. But that's always my personality and then. But I still didn't know what to do with that. Right. I didn't even really know what I was going to do. And so I learned that as much as I am, like, I do like to make. Make friends, I like to go out and be around people. I like to be around people in general. It's just my genuine nature. But. There's a but, you know, because of where I come from. I think you originally were from, like, Connecticut or something like that, right? Before you moved.

[A]

Yeah, I was born in Hartford. In Hartford, Connecticut. Right.

[B]

And then you moved down to Newport Beach. I'm from Indiana when I was six years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in a farming community, like, and I think that my values are, like, I really care, you know, and the reason I chose the blue collar industry is I could relate the most to. To. That's kind of how I grew up. Right. In the same way. And because I genuinely want to help people and I genuinely like people and I believe that your word is your bond.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

So those are all my natural things. I do. And all I did was just Lean into it. It. You know, and. And was able to leverage, you know, those, like, traits I've been given to be. To have success and. And. But there was a grind to it, right? Like, because you want. Just because you got. Now what. Now what are you selling? And then I got to be able to build the things and, like, do the things. You have to go out and try and perform. And you say you could sing, you couldn't play any instruments. You can, like, pretty important to be able to learn how to do these things. If you're trying to make it in the music industry and now you're trying

[A]

to lean into that, Chris, as an inspiration, you know, you might necessarily think like, that, like, you can't do something just because you can't do something. Have you ever tried it? You know, a lot of people watching this. Well, I've probably never sang on stage. Well, I can't do that. You ever tried it? You know? You know what I mean? You wouldn't. It's one of those things. You got it. You don't know until you get thrown in the deep end. And if you have the, you know, the cojones that go up there and do it, you don't know yet. And I think one thing I've been willing to do in my career is try everything. I don't stay in a box. I think outside the walls. Let me try hosting, you know, let me try this over here. Let me try some acting. I've always been willing to try, you know, and I think that's what's kept me around forever. And I think, like, you just were talking about sales. Like, how did you know you could sell until you try? Right? Dude. I mean, and. And obviously your personality kind of has to be suited to certain things, and it might come a little easier to you, but I think you can learn certain things, especially with the help of others. You know, it took a village for me and someone, a producer named dav, who led me to water where my voice was, and that was the biggest gift he could give me. You know, we were going in to sing our song Fly, we talked about earlier, went to number one, but who's counting? And. And we're going in here to sing the song and on the record floor. Fly is the anomaly on that record. It didn't sound like anything else. It had its own vibe, and I was going in to record that. The label felt good about the demos, the demo version of the song, and we felt this is our shot. So I'm going to record the song we had written the choruses. Got it. And our producer goes, mark, I got some good news and some bad news for you. And being the Irishman that I am, I go, give me the bad news first. You know, the bad news is you can't sing. I mean, red lights on microphone down here. Whole band's in the control room just waiting for me to sing the song. I'm already stressed out and panicked. And I go, excuse me, his name is David. I go, excuse me, David, what could possibly be the good news? He goes, well, if you listen to me, we've got a whole new technology called Pro Tools. And what I can do by getting your voice together, I can pitch and pull the keys, get you right where you wanted to be. So you're singing everything just effortlessly and cohesively. And I don't know what he was talking about, but I go, whatever you need. He goes, your talking voice is your singing voice. You've got a great tone in it. And I think with that tone, we can sell 2 million records. And I thought he was full of shit when I heard that, you know, fast forward a year and a half Later, Floor sold 2 million records off that one song. So, you know, you just never know where it's going to come from. Just keep showing up and don't give up, man. You know, don't give up. And I know it's such a cliche. It's been a cliche from our parents when we're young, playing sports, but just don't take yourself out of the game, man. If that means anything to you. Listening, don't you take yourself out of the game. And then you're saying, well, of course I won't, Mark. Well, we're our own worst enemy. Well, the first guy can't do it. You know, all the business felt, it's over. Don't you decide when it's over. Take it to the edge. And just before you be pushed up, still keep fighting, man, because I'm here to prove to you. That's why I'm talking to you. That's why I'm able to have a career in music. I just kept on believing in myself, and I wasn't going to stop until it was over. It's never over till it's over.

[B]

As Yogi Bear said, when it's over. I heard the pun there. When is it? I heard it. I heard it. Hey, you. So actually, let's. Let's talk about it. Okay? So a lot of these contractors.

[A]

By the way, Chris, you're gonna have to Bring me back. And I go on tangents and I freak out, I get excited. So my apologies.

[B]

I love this. I can, I'm playing off of it. So this is actually easy because it actually is a good. I can find the segue into the next thing I want to ask you. So there's a lot of people are listening on here who've had some level of success already. There's some who are just still trying to achieve the success. Which is great because what you just said, you know, applies to that, like just keep going. The shit's not easy if it was easier, but I'd do it. But then once you got it, you got to sustain it. And I would argue that that sometimes is as hard as getting it. So you got to be able to sustain it. Now here we are in 20, 26, you know, damn near 30, dare I say it.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

And you had, you know, it's funny,

[A]

Chris, I want to, I want to touch on that right there. Because there's another thing that, that I say to people, they ask me about, you know, success in various industries. Success is the second hardest thing you'll do in any industry. Having success in your industry. And they're like, well, Mark, that should be the first one. No, no, no. There's levels to this thing, people staying there is the hardest thing to do. Ask any athlete, ask any mid level band like us, it's got a crack at the big leagues. Hey, we all wanted to be Aerosmith. We wanted to be AC DC and we wanted to be the Eagles. And we took a crack at, you know, we had three platinum records in a row, four top tens, two number ones, sold ten men records. We were there. We had a shot. We had a fastball coming down the middle. We tried our best, but it just didn't happen for us. Now there's no boohoo, poor me. We probably got way more than we deserved. And I'm here to testify that we did. But to stay there and be able to continue at that level of success, it's rarefied air, homies. It's rare a fight air. And you can be successful right now. Where are you going to be in 10 years? You know, See, I think you got to keep that humility. And there's always like, you can never be sort of. You can be grateful and take a big, a big like, you know, a big breath of fresh air. But you can't be, you can't be satisfied. You know, Chris, like I think anybody's ever been successful, you always want more. I am Dumb enough to think right now at 58 years old I can still write a hit song. But that belief also motivated me at 25, you know what I'm saying? So it's never, I said earlier, it's never old. I'm always hustling and trying to fight and never happy where I'm at. I'm grateful, but I'm never satisfied and happy.

[B]

So that's, this is a perfect segue because what I was going to ask you is like you have to come up with some sort, some sort of discipline when you're at your peak to sustain this success. And you, you've heard like even if you're not in the music industry, we've all heard the stories and seen the biographies and all the about, oh yeah, you peaked or you're a one hit wonder or had you, you know, like as ACDC Aerospace, you drop some big bands who have clearly sustained at a high level for a lot of years and continue to. But like what was it that you were, that you were doing that kind of, did you have to create? Like, hey, I know that on the daily or on the weekly or whatever, I gotta do these things to make sure I'm giving us opportunities to, to stay relevant. Like what were some of those disciplines and things that you had to do to, to do that?

[A]

Well, let me be real clear by saying we did a lot of stupid things that sort of negated and counteracted that thing. You know what I mean? Look, we started as a party band in Newport Beach, California to play a bunch of COVID songs around a Keg in 1988. That was the goal. You know, we never got rid of that spirit. Even when we were a multi million dollar corporation making a lot of money around the world. We like to have fun and drinks and have some fun, have some drinks like we still do today. Chris, you know, did we miss some meetings because we over, over indulge the night before? Absolutely. You know, when you're in the rock and roll business, I show up to work and there's two cases of beer, two bottles of James and two bottles of vodka. You're expected to be hospitable and moving around. It's part of the game. So it is a gigantic learning curve, Chris, that a lot of people don't survive from. Now, I'm not saying drinking and all that stuff is only germane to the music industry. Everybody's got to come to Jesus with their own terms on everything, right? But it's really sort of perpetuated, manifested in the Rock and roll world. And when you're on the road and touring and you're bored, you're lonely, these things come real easy at you. So you got to learn what your level is. And our first year in 97, when we were on the Warp tour, having our first hit with a number one song on mtv, having a bus for the first time like we over in Dole, we had to figure out where that was. And you don't do the road, the road does you. We've lost many a good rock and roller to the highway wake of dead bodies because they couldn't handle, you know, it was just too much, you know. So it's something that was one thing you had to navigate. And once you do that, you can start implementing like what your personal characteristics are. You know, I'd like, I'm a man of my word. If I make a phone call, I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna show up on time. Those, those kind of things that apply to any industry were important to rock and roll. Even though they give you a longer leash to in that business. So you get treated differently because you kind of, you're kind of adulated. You know, you're, you're, you're kind of exalted in a way that's not normal. And you also have to rectify that. You start feeling yourself a little bit. Oh, I am this great. You know, I have a great support system. I have the same friends I've had for over 50 years. And that, that's one thing that they've always kept me humble. When I've got out of line, they smack me right back in line. So having a good support system and friends is really important to me to showing up all the time. But I mean, we made a ton of mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes as well. So there's things I would have definitely done differently, Chris. Now, but you can't say that because I was young and dumb and having fun. I don't regret anything I did. But I would do things differently if I had my 58 year old mind, in my 27 year old mind. But then again, I probably wouldn't have made it because I would have been my own worst enemy then I wouldn't have done the dumb things and naive things that I did to make it happen. So it's kind of a push and pull, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, wisdom is great as you get older, but it ain't better being young and stupid, I'll tell you that.

[B]

Listen, I just did I was a guest on a podcast earlier today, and he was asking me the same thing. It's like, it's so easy to say, oh, I would, you know what I would do then? Well, I'm far more intelligent today than I was then, but maybe I wouldn't even have made it this far if I didn't have. Like, I would have overanalyzed things and not done them or whatever, but I just kind of let it rip and just figured shit out.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then I think you lose that spirit as you get older, and rightfully so, because, you know, responsibilities coming to mind. You know, I'm still operating a multimillion dollar company a year, and there's a lot of pressure on me and there's mouths I'm feeding and people I'm employing, and I'm like, I'm responsible for that. When you're young, like, just throw it against the wall and you don't care, you know, I mean, you care and you're concerned about others, but there's that, that spirit of the youth, you know what I mean, of being a world dominator man, that you kind of lose a little. And you're supposed to. You get older, you've got family, your priorities change and also, like your focus change as you get older. You only have so much time for people that matter to you. When you're younger, you can put up with a ton of bullshit, you know?

[B]

Yep. Hey. Hey, you. So you okay? This is actually another great segue. I want to lean into you. I mean, attention to the point listeners. Branding has never been more important. Is your brand in serious need of an upgrade? Do you have a new company and need a new brand, but don't want to wait six months or pay a ridiculous amount to get a done? If your brand looks like everyone else's, well, guess what? You are everyone else. But Prolific, they build brands that dominate from the first Google search to the driveway. Prolific Brand Design can help you be more of you because you are the unique difference that sets you apart from all your competitors. So let's be real for a second. Your brand is either winning you customers or costing you money. Just ask some of our clients like Ken Goodrich, Ishmael Valdez, my boy Chad Peterman, and even myself. Prolific Brand Design is the creative pros behind some of the best home services, logos, truck wraps, websites, and now email marketing campaigns. Wouldn't you love it if your email marketing open rates were 30, 40, 50%? And don't go into the spam folder. Hell, that's how we roll at Pro Prolific. So check them out at prolific brand design.com and ask for the to the point promo. Prolific brand design. Be more of you. Be prolific. You talk about managing a multi million dollar business. That's the music is. There's the business to music. And you have to manage those things. I mean, you're talking. There's touring, there's merch, there's licensing, there's all kinds of shit that you have to other people, you know, human beings who are impacted by your decision making or whatever. Whatever. And so I made this. I made this post on after you guys come out to Reno X. I took a video. I can't remember what it was, and it was just something. I took a video of me and you, like, you're seeing the background and you came up and like, yeah, whatever. And I posted it and that thing like blew up and went viral, which was awesome. And I'm watching all these people responding to it and I was like, I

[A]

felt so bad for you, Chris. I go, chris has never been in the storm of a Sugar Ray sort of a viral video. And you were, go ahead, Chris. You see?

[B]

Dude, did you see? I was like, in full. I was like, I was like, I was talking mad. I'm like, I was going, you were just haymaker. I was letting it rip, Chris.

[A]

But it just shows what a good dude you are, man. You had her back. You're like, no, they were great. Because to those who probably have not seen it, the video showed his plan. Chris has a party for his friends. He's got 40, 50 great friends that are lucky enough to be in his world and see his fans. And people saw that, like, oh, poor sugar raise or point in front of 40 people. I'm like, oh, my God. Chris was more generous than us and probably paid us 3 of your salaries for the year. You know what I mean, dude? It's like, it's just. But. But social media is what it is. And I go, chris, don't go fighting that battle, bro. Because, like, you just, you know, it's almost you engaging them. It was almost like, you know, hyping up a hornet's nest. I gotta be excited, Always gotta respond. And all you did was protect me and look out for me. Chris, I want to thank you, dude. That just shows you what a. What a good dude you were, man. Like, what a. What a good human being, you know?

[B]

And listen, I'm not naive to, I'm not naive to, to everything you just said. And because I, you know, run a Digital marketing agency for so long that involves social media, of course, but. But the point even wasn't that, like, it's. But just some people. I was like, I'm gonna let this. I'm gonna let this have it, though. Like, because I logged into his profile, I'm like, so, okay. So then I was like, okay, this is. This is not who I am. But the point of it is, is like, you're. I kept. I kept saying, like, you're like, you aren't going out and looking for shit. Like, you are still playing so many shows. Like, and. And that is the business. Like. And there's a lot of money wrapped up. Up in that business. And then. And like, ours was private, so you didn't bring merch and like that. But that is a part of these things. Sometimes I'm not sure how much you do or don't do that now, but, like, are you managing that? Do you have people helping you manage that now? Not. Not so much your. Your agent managing the schedule, but just like the business of it itself. Is that on you and someone else or who's. Who's managing that?

[A]

Yeah, we have a really good management company called Shelter Management. We have a gentleman named Tom Storms there. They're out of Nashville and they've got a bunch of big acts. Barenaked Ladies, Easy Top, Fleetwood Mac, and then this guy Tom Storms, who ironically is our manager now. I went to college with at usc and we were in the same fraternity, believe it or not, with Will Ferrell to Believe it or not.

[B]

We're going straight dad.

[A]

So funny, dude, because we'll get back to that. But anyway, so Tom. Tom started curating 90s band. He picked up us. He picked up Uncle Cracker, he picked up Tonic, better than Ezra lit, and started sort of like really getting this raid cottage industry of 90s bands going. And so we all work for each other and, like, get shows together. It's become a wonderful thing. I gotta tell you, the 90s are in full swing right now in terms of, like, nostalgia. And just like, it's almost. Almost like part two of the 90s. Because I gotta tell you, Chris, it took the stake of the 90s a long time to go away. And there were some real lean years there from like 2008 to, like, 2015 until it really started picking up again, until the people in power, CEOs, people like yourself, that could make decisions for private parties, started reaching back to the 90s, you know, so. And it's never stopped. And I like to say the 90s will never be over in terms of nostalgia for all of us that went through it because it was the last decade. We all received entertainment, entertainment together. Whether we watched Seinfeld at 9pm In NBC, we all saw at the same time whether we got our records on Tuesday at Tower Records or wherever you bought them, we got them on time. There was a community sort of experience to what the music to TV. And we've never lost it in the 90s and we never had it again after Napster and streaming came in, you know. And I think that's been, been so valuable to our business. So we've got a wonderful team in place. I do a lot of decision making. Obviously all the merchandise design, merchandise is huge for any band. They'll all tell you that you're getting basically paid twice. So that's an important part of it. Obviously all bands have like their store that's part of their website. So there's many ways to hit revenue in terms of being in the music business in general. Obviously the live business is one. If you still own your songwriting and, and masters, that's a beautiful part of it too. So there's many ways that sort of have to be overseen. I do that in tandem with our, with our management.

[B]

Got it. So you, you talked about. Actually you just said something and, and I think, you know, I think I'm a trendsetter. Mark. I think what you just, you are correct because here's what happened when Covid. When Covid hit 2020, right? Like that's when got weird for everybody, right? Because you can't go and perform, you can't do anything. I have a Christmas party to put on and I'm determined to get an artist there.

[A]

Like in 2020.

[B]

In 2020. In 2020. This was like the start.

[A]

But I want your audience to know how hard that was to do in 2020 because there was a lot of optics to that. Chris.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Whether you were being irresponsible for doing this, whether the artists were being irresponsible. And what was scary about COVID Chris, and a lot of your, your, your contractors will understand this. We didn't know There was a two month period there started March 16. It was a day after my birthday. I'll never forget it. We flew home that day. The airports are empty. And around April or May there was talk of, oh, we're never going to convene again in a live music situation. I'm like, what? I just got here. That's how I make money. There was talk of that for two or three months. So for Chris, for you to be so adamant about putting a show on in the winter of 2020, it says a lot about you, bro. You know what I mean? For you.

[B]

Thank you. And. And I'll tell you, it was. I think everybody, though, was ready. Like, artists were easier to get if they could go and do it, and all the different, you know, red tape you had to kind of work through. But by December, there was a little bit of, like, you know, leverage. Like, well, well, you could pull some.

[A]

Don't have any. Don't have any income coming in for six months. And everybody gets real smart. Yeah, well, yeah, when you see your sign, go check. Because, you know, the bills were still being paid, but everybody saved. Yeah, that big sucking sound at night when you were sleeping with your finances going down the drain. Well, yeah, everybody was ready to work.

[B]

Let me just tell you, 20, 20 up my budgeting because it's at an unrealistic expectation for the future years. Because I had.

[A]

I had.

[B]

And this kind of will bring it back to. I thought, man, let's go back to the 90s. And I said, I'm going to have. I had a Coolio come in. Yeah, I had a Tone Loke and I had a young mc. And so we did like a little three thing. It cost me. Like, I usually don't talk about price, but I'll talk because that's forever going the Ain't this way now, just so you know, way different. But even then, it was like 45, $50,000 to have those three artists. The stage cost me $35,000.

[A]

And I'll just say, man, that's. That's. You know, that was. Everybody was hungry there, bro.

[B]

But I'm saying, trust me, that was the last time I was like, oh, like, I'm not even close to budgeting now, so. But the point was, is, like, those are all 90s guys. And then, you know, the very next one I had. I can't remember if I had Nelly then, too, which is a massive, you know, step up. I don't think it was Nelly. Had to be somebody else. Maybe it was Flo Rida and then Nelly.

[A]

But gigantic too, though, right? I mean. I mean, Flo.

[B]

Flo is. I've had him for three events. He is awesome, dude. Like, the two best. The two best, like, personal performers I've had are you and Flo. Like, both you guys are so good at, like, getting the crowd involved. Involved. But. But the previous year, last year, I had another three banger. I had. I had a Rob Bass open. And then I had Warren G, and then I had Vanilla Ice.

[A]

Oh, man, Rob's great. You talked to Rob, right?

[B]

Yeah, Rob was totally, totally cool. I mean, all, all of them were cool. Warren G was so high the whole time. So he was, he was like, but, but it's Warren G, dude. So I loved it.

[A]

It was on brand. It's on brand.

[B]

But Ice was awesome. Like, we hung out with him afterwards for a bit. He was super. He was super cool too.

[A]

Great show too, right? He's a great showman.

[B]

Puts on a great show. Puts on a great show. But you, you said the Correlation here is all 90 stuff, right? Like, I, and I enjoy those things. And so then I say to my friends who also have events, and guess what? Now they've got them coming to their shows. Like so. Because it's all like, you can relate so much. So many people like that. And it works.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so.

[A]

And a lot of Chris, too. A lot of this business too. And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I told you I was going to do that when we started this. A lot of these artists that I've worked with before, and if you're lucky enough to get shows in the corporate world, if your catalog is lucky enough, there's another level to this where you got to play nice in the sandbox. You know what I mean? You don't have to work with artists you don't want to work with. You know what I'm saying? And like, like you said, you tell your friends, that guy was an asshole. That guy was co. I mean, it seems to be the same people are working still because everybody gets it. Show up professional, you know, you're personable and you put on a great show, you know, so I'm not surprised you had those artists because those also, those artists like, these very characteristics I'm talking about, they all are inherent in those artists. They're great guys.

[B]

And I think a big misunderstanding is that nobody would ever think about this. But just for people who are thinking, like, well, you know, if you're going and playing a private, you know, small event, well, then you're kind of a. Has been. By the way, by the way, there's players right now that are like mainstage big time acts that I promise you are fucking doing private shows.

[A]

By now you've probably heard how much of a proponent I am for Bluon,

[B]

but I'm not the only one.

[A]

When you talk to service managers using Blueon, the stories all sound very familiar.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

It's simple, it's accurate, and it works.

[A]

And yeah, Peterman Brothers is definitely seeing that impact too.

[B]

Do yourself a favor, click the link in the description and book a quick demo to see it in action.

[A]

Chris, there's not a band alive that doesn't do private. Now, mind you, every scale is differently, but you can get the Rolling Stones to play your backyard tomorrow night if you got 20 million bucks. Yeah, there's no band that doesn't do it. Now, county fairs used to be embarrassing to a lot of bands. Now back fans plan their tours around county fairs. I think all of us know that the live entity is where bands make their money now. You know, Napster and streaming made our music invaluable. And that's a. That was a weird part of our journey when like, you were lucky enough to get this golden ticket called a number one song, which traditionally would have taken care of you and your family and your family's family for the rest of your life, but that became useless. I equate it to people going, mark, I don't understand. It's. It's just a song because it's intellectual property, right? It's not a thing, per se. But I go, well, let me put it this way. If I walked into a museum, I took a Basquiat off the wall and said, this is mine now. Is it mine now? It's. No, that's Basquiat. It's his art. I get them every time I go, exactly. That's our art. You know what I mean? It's free now. There's nothing can do. But I just wanted people see that. Sometimes your songwriters are complain a little bit. There's a reason why. I mean, that's our art. That's the building we built. That is the construction company we started. Those were our trucks, you know, that was our materials. And now they're just free, okay? And now it's happened to Hollywood and they're not so happy about it. So it's interesting. AI is coming for a lot of folks. So, you know, we were just the first industry to really feel the effects of the digital world. And that was interesting to navigate. But my point was that's why everybody's playing live now. There is no. No, there's no show that a band is not grateful now for having. You know, and. Because that's where. That's where 75% of any band that is lucky enough to be able to play live, to make a living gets their money from the live situation.

[B]

Dude, why do you think. Why do you think that so many. Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you an example of a band after I tell you. After I asked this question. But, like, why do you think. And I'm trying to. And I'm trying to connect this to relevance, like, continued relevance, whether you're a business owner or you're a musician or whatever. But, like, why do you think that some bands create fans for life and others just create, like, listeners? Like, what is that delta there? And let me. Let me throw this out there. It's Oasis. Like, I've. I've heard that's a very. That they were a very complicated group to work with. I don't know. I've only heard those things. And I love Oasis. I think they're great. And then they started me, too, performing again. These are guys who didn't play, like, just shut down and didn't do anything yet. When they came, they came out like, they're selling out fat Oasis. Like, I've not gone and see him. But, like, how. Like, what is it that. That, like, is it your personality? Is it. Is it just. Is it as simple as how you treat people? Because you. I don't get it. Like, how are you creating fans for life? Even when you ain't putting out any music or on stage, you don't perform performances. I don't get it.

[A]

There's one thing that's always been the connective tissue between all of that, of maintaining fans. And it's great songs. There's. There's no voodoo to it. There's no magic to it. It is great songs. It doesn't matter what genre is if you're a Metallica fan or if you love Britney Spears, doesn't mean you have to like Britney Spears. They're great songs. That's the connective tissue. Now, I say this about Sugar Ray just to give us an example. Example. We have classic songs, but we're not a classic band. You know what I mean? Aerosmith, classic band, classic songs. And I kind of touched on this a little earlier. We tried that. We swung for the fences, try to become that classic fan, but that's that rarefied era. We have the great songs and sometimes talent is just that, that defining characteristics you need. We just maybe didn't have enough talent songwriting wise to get us through some eras and some decades. Oasis did and does. And that absence of Oasis drove people crazy. And that's why they came back. Sold out multiple stadiums around the world. And what was defining connective tissue there, great songs that lasted generation. And if you saw the Oasis crowds, half of them were people in their 20s, young people. It was like the Beatles. Fans today are 18 years old. You know what I mean? So it's great songs. It was always that thing that made you have those fans for life. But it doesn't mean having eight. One great song doesn't mean you're not fans for life. Having a couple great songs means you can always play play forever. You know, we're lucky enough to do your corporate shows and we do a lot of casinos and things like that. We know Sugar Ray got four songs. Great, we're coming out. We're gonna have a good night, you know, but getting that hard ticket like fervent fandom, we weren't able to maintain that. And that's okay. Hey, you know, I, I do know this. You can't hang a fan base on a haircut, right? Because that goes away. And you know, and, and people cycle out all the time. So it's always good straight songs. It's going to be that, that thing that really drives people to come see you.

[B]

To the point. Listeners, listen up. What if the biggest thing holding back your business isn't marketing or hiring, but your bennies? The benefits for home service companies, a better 401k can be the difference difference between great techs and losing them to the shop right down the street. Basic Capital, our newest sponsor, is the only 401k built to actually put your team on a real path to retirement. Companies that switch over see higher participation, happier teams, and dramatically low turnover because your crew finally gets a plan that's a true benefit, not just a checkbox. Don't wait until your best people walk, make the move and click the link below to get 12 months with 0 employer fees. Fees when you join Basic Capital. You know, okay, this is gonna be off, completely off script, but you got me thinking about this. I'm really curious to know what your answer is going to be. Why can Journey not get Steve Perry back there? Damn it. Why can't they do that? That tour would break the world if they could.

[A]

I got a very simple answer for you, and I completely agree. It's the same reason why Michael Jordan can't join the Chicago Bulls to tonight. Wouldn't you love to see prime grade A era Michael Jordan play for the Bulls tonight?

[B]

Yeah. So I see where you're going with

[A]

Steve Perry, as much as I love the man, cannot handle the repertoire and the songs of Journey today. People get older. You know, the one thing about the music business is that we get to keep playing as we get older. That's also the bad news. Not all of us should keep playing, you know, but. But if we. But the thing about this, some people go, oh, Frankie Valley, he's 91. Why is he doing anymore? If you want to die quickly, retire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you don't have a schedule and something to be accountable for. I mean, I understand why everybody keeps doing it. It's our identity. Why would you give your identity back? You know? And Steve Perry's only not doing it for Journey because unfortunately, he couldn't handle that caseload. In fact, the guy singing from them right now are now amazing. His voice is starting to go. And I'm the last guy about someone singing because as we talked about, I don't have the best voice in the world. But thankfully, the guy that was so instinctively, intuitively told me, mark, your voice is your speaking voice. By the grace of God, hopefully I can keep doing it, as I was the biggest gift he gave me because as you know, some of our older material was more aggressive and I was screaming and yelling and all that. But the things that hit were the songs that were in my basically speaking voice tone. So hopefully I'll be able to keep doing that. Steve Perry, it's just too much, too much for him. Alexa Rose has had to change his thing. You know, know, people just get older, and you get to watch us do that in the music business. How sad would it be to watch Michael Jordan tonight play against the Lakers, the condition he's in.

[B]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[A]

That's why. I see it's breaking your heart a little. The reality of it, man, it makes sense.

[B]

It makes total sense. Because I like, you know, if you. If you don't want that to be the last. I'll tell you what. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say it's because she recovered. I went and saw. Who was it, Pat Benatar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Brian Adams. They played in. And what's his name? Whatever. I forget her husband's name or whatever the guy's name is. But anyway, they. The first time. Last time I saw her was not great. I was not great. And you want it to be great because it's bad Benatar. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Not the last time, but the previous time. But then I saw her again with Brian Adams, and she, like, killed it, but she changed the way she was singing the song. She dropped it down a little bit, which is fine, but. Because I would not want to go out if I'm Steve Perry and you know, and be like, I'm not. And not sounding, like, even remotely close or. Or messing up Steve Perry. Because that's what people are left with if right now they're just left with Steve Perry voice that we all know and love. So that makes Steve knows that.

[A]

And those songs, dude, they're so iconic and identifiable. You can't change the melody. You can't bring the keys down too much because then it starts to drag, you know? And you want to hear them. Like, you want to hear. That's why there's bands like Foreigner. They're still out there without an original member, because the band can deliver, and the fans are. Have anointed Foreigner as a classic band. So welcome in Foreigner. You know, we're gonna let you. We're gonna. We're gonna welcome you. Because not everybody could just go out and be fake Journey or fake Foreigner. Foreigner was able to do it, you know, and maintain. It's tough, dude, because there really is no answer to every scenario. And that's kind of like we want an answer for everything. And another thing when you're dealing with bands is relationships, bro. And I'm talking about romantic relationships without the sex.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In most cases, unless you need a ride home, but you know what I'm saying. So you're. You're getting real emotional connections that sometimes just sabotage the success of bands. Another layer of why it's impossible sometimes for bands not to exist or become successful. Relationships get in the way. I know every. All the contractors listening out there go, we know it, dude. We've got our guys. But it's a little different in music. And. And people go, why can't you just keep the original band together? And I go, if you can go out with your original girlfriend tonight and take her on a date, then I'll tell you why. And they go, I could never do that. I go, exactly. I've been with these guys 30 years, you know, so there's interesting dynamics all in play. And every band is in their own subjective reality for why they can or cannot play.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

So.

[B]

So, Mike, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna ask first off, like, this is great, like, just for me personally, like, this is fun because I love talking about. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask one last question and then I'm gonna do just a quick. If you're cool with it, just do like a quick, like, quick, rapid fire, like, quick answer. If you're. If you're capable, which you're not. We'll do our best, but we'll see if I can do a rapid fire question. I'll tell you this. Did you know you. You first off, you mentioned Frankie Valley. I love Frankie Valley in the Four Seasons. And he's still out there doing his thing now. He don't move very. He doesn't move very much.

[A]

Much.

[B]

And I'm not 100 sure singing, but it actually. But it's Frankie Valley. He's there, he's there. But you know who still kills it? Who's. Who's older is Kevin Cronin, man. REO Speedwagon. Like, that dude's still, still killing it.

[A]

Mickey Thomas is still out there doing it from Starship.

[B]

Starship.

[A]

He's in his mid-70s, same keys, crushing it. There are guys there are just defying Father Time and killing it and. And, you know, hopefully they'll be around for a while. So if there's bands out there, you're like, oh, I'll wait till next year to see them. Go see them now. You never, you never know what could happen.

[B]

That's exactly what exactly kind of my mentality is the one I. I mean, the one thing I've like, I wish if I could have had to, like, seen a band I never got to see, I'd love to see Queen in their prime. Like, I thought that'd be awesome.

[A]

Oh, God. So for sure.

[B]

Okay, so. So I'm gonna go this one last question. I'm gonna hit you with some rapid fire stuff. And. And this is where I. A lot of times I like whenever I'm interviewing other contractors who've had a lot of success is, you know, you've tripped. You've had a lot of different failures on your way to finding this success. Everybody goes through some version unless you just got really, really, really, really lucky, which is not most people. So I want to ask a question just around failure first and see what your response is to. And it's. And it's. It's fun to talk about the success, right? Like, that is the most fun part to talk about because it's the most fun part, part of the journey. It's the most fun experience. It's all the things. It's the good shit. But. But what did failure, failure teach you in this journey that success didn't?

[A]

Well, you know, there's that old cliche. You learn more for your failures and your due successes. You know, you figure out what you're about, what you're made of, you know. Our first record came out and failed. We have a record called Lemon and Brownies. Came out in 95 and it was like pre new metal. Like it wasn't new metal was even a term yet. You know, we were rapping and we were rocking. We were punk rocking. We were doing all these. Because we got signed and we only had two original songs. So once we got signed, it was like a careful what you asked for thing. Oh, my God, we got to write some more songs. So we were like kids in the candy store and we had to figure it out. But our first record was a failure, man. And I remember I can. I can put myself right back to. In Hollywood, 95, the record came out, it was done. We were driving eight hours in a van to play in front of three people. The record label stopped calling us and, like, it was all over. It was over, you know, and that desperation and knowing that a year and a half ago our dream came true by getting signed to Atlantic Records. And then it was going to be over a year and a half later, and that was going to be our definable dream. It's over. That's it. So what happened to us was we got. We went inside each other and said, we need to write some songs that matter. We'd written songs about beer and bullshit and partying and all that. We go, we need to touch some souls. And. And because of this record, that was a failure, right? We were able to go out and play music every night. We got better as a band, we got better as musicians, and most importantly, we got better as songwriters. And there was a stupid edict on the band, like, don't write songs that mean anything. It's about beer and cars and girls, which is fine. People have built a career on that. But that wasn't our path. So when we decided to sort of touch where we were, our desperation right there, and use the desperation, use the sadness, you know, create something out of that, you know, where pressure causes a diamond. We came up with a song, Fly, and the darkest period of it because we wanted to escape where we were. And luckily for us, escape was in the manner of writing a song. We stumbled upon the song Fly, but a Lot of bands would have given up right there. They would have, because, you know, the label wasn't even returning our call. So there was no guarantee we're going to make a second round record. A lot of fans would have packed it up and said, oh, we decided not to do it because we're going to bail. We said, we're still here, we still have a record deal. And luckily we came up Fly. The label heard that and gave us the money to make a second record. So I think in your darkest time, you can find definitely what you're made of. Whether you're a quitter or not, you're going to find whether you're worthy of success in your darkest times, you know, because your darkest times gets rid of 90% of your competition. That's the good news. The bad news is you got to go through it to get to the good stuff, you know, and by the way, even then, there is no guarantee, but it shows you what you're made of. So I'm grateful for those dark times, you know, and those failures. That particular failure of that record showed me how fragile everything was. And so I kind of just went back to basics and said, why are we here? Oh, we make music. Let's make the best song we can.

[B]

If you didn't do that, then statues wouldn't have crumbled for you.

[A]

You are good.

[B]

Come on, baby, keep them coming.

[A]

But Chris, that imagery right there shows you exactly where my head space was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Fly spies a song about escaping the situation you're in. Boom. See, that's where. That's okay. Number one song that made millions of dollars continues you around the world right there. You know, I. I get. I get goosebumps thinking about it. I'm glad you asked me that because I haven't revisited that in a while. And it's just, it's. It makes me, like, super grateful and humble.

[B]

Well, you, well, you can hear a song and, and you. And it's at face value, you don't know any depth to it. When you have the depth to it now, it has a different meaning. Will you understand the actual feelings attached to the depth of what created Fly? And it came from one of the most disappointing moments of your life and the hardest times of your life. And look what happened. You just didn't. You kind of said at the beginning, like, you just don't. You just didn't quit. You just keep going, you know? And I've heard some people say, hey, hey, you okay, you can quit, but just don't like Quit tomorrow. And then it just always quit tomorrow. And this was kind of like a Navy SEAL mentality that I heard a guy talking about.

[A]

It's a great. It's a great mentality. Get through the day.

[B]

Yeah, just don't. You can quit.

[A]

Always wake up differently. You always wake up feeling different, you know what I mean? Just get through the day, man. Grind it out. And what's funny, you were talking about songs and what it means to people. I made the mistake of telling someone what fly meant in the summer of 97 when it first came out. You know, they're all getting. Know the thing about your mother, God rest her soul and all that. And I'm like, oh, my mom's still alive. You know, the person fell on the ground crying, goes, oh, I hate that song. And they were so bummed out about that exchange. And I went, oh, the song is about whatever it means to you. I'm done telling people what the song means, you know, and we had two or three songwriters that wrote the lyrics and the melodies in our song. So we. We were. We would play off each other. We wouldn't tell each other what we were necessarily writing about. We try to deduce it and kind of intuitively decide what the lyrics were about. So we never really told each other. So it was a bit of a push and pull and a more universal quality to our hit songs, for sure. Because of that very thing, there were a couple of minds working at once, you know, and so that. That was. That was one thing I learned, man. Do not tell people what these songs mean, because it doesn't matter. What does it mean to you? That's what I say now.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think. Think that's absolutely. I think that's so perfect. And why, like, there's no reason to, like, they just did it.

[A]

Feel something. Job done.

[B]

Yeah, feel that. I'm just gonna leave it. I'll leave it at that. Okay, so listen, we are an hour into this thing.

[A]

Sorry. No, I'll try and cut these short.

[B]

No, dude, I'm telling you, this is. This is great. So, like, if I wanted to cut it short, we'd have cut it short a while ago. So I'm pretty good. We're having a good. I'm having a good time. So I'm gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions. Okay? Okay. And. And just kind of give me your best, like, short. Your best short answers, bro.

[A]

Okay, give me an example of a short answer, Chris, please.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mine might be different than yours.

[B]

Okay. So maybe keep it under a minute.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Can you do that? Okay. Not that I'm counting, but okay. So rapid fire questions to close. Okay. Okay. Mark, what's one decision? One decision that, that made you millions? Like, think about the one thing. Yes, you wrote a song, but like, what's one decision that made you millions?

[A]

This isn't even the music business. I returned a call I had no interest in returning in, in the summer of 2003. And, you know, if you're looking at that, some success in the music business, you get calls from different areas of the entertainment business, whether it be movies, acting, or in this case, place an entertainment news show called Extra. And they called a few times and like, okay, that's not my thing, you know. And then I placed the call to Extra, this girl named Lisa G. And she says, mark, we'd love you to come down and see what we're doing here. And, and, and just love to say hello. And my manager was kind of cahoots because he knew I would never go down there for an audition. Long story, even longer. I call them, go down there, I meet Lisa G. I meet the people at Extra. I'm on the floor, like doing my thing. I was so loose, I didn't care. Two weeks later, I was hosting Extra.

[B]

I remember.

[A]

And I worked there for five years. Yeah. And you know, seven figures a year back in 2004, five, six would have meant something. So that call that I didn't even want to make, you never know what's on the other end of that line, especially if someone's interested in you make the call, call, you know, call back. You never know where to.

[B]

That's really good advice, actually. So, yeah, you, you took the call that you didn't want to take. And that is a very common thing, doing something you don't. Yeah, absolutely. Love that. Okay, next one.

[A]

No interest at all.

[B]

Now, what's one mistake that cost you the most?

[A]

There's a few of those. You know,

[B]

we've all got them. We've all got them. And they've cost us different. They've cost us different currency.

[A]

Well, I've got one. It's interesting. There's a guy named Andrew Watt, he's a producer right now, probably the most successful producer in the world. He's on Rolling Stones, Elton John, Chili Peppers, Justin Bieber. Ten years ago, I, I was in another band and Andrew was in a band and we were in an all star band. There's a lot of bands going on here. And we became close and he goes Mark, I'm a big fan of your band. He was a young kid there, he's probably 24, 25. He goes, Listen, I'm going to write some songs right now for Justin Bieber, and I want you to get involved. I got a couple songs and, you know, and he sent me this, this, this demo called Sorry. And it was kind of not really all together. And I'm like, I kind of kind of bail. No, I'm cool, dude. You do your thing goes well, I'm gonna go right with this guy right now. Come over and I didn't do it. Now, if I had been in the room there writing that song, Justin Bieber song called Sorry, I probably wouldn't be talking right now, you know what I'm saying? So that's another one I regret. And I get these calls a lot. Like, I'd like to write a song with you, you know, And I like our songs. We only wrote songs we had to, you know, I'm not just a songwriter every day, though. I write on my own leisure. So I just kind of bailed on that and it was a big mistake. It was a huge mistake. Now he's the biggest producer songwriter in the world. And, you know, here we are.

[B]

Ouch. Okay, what I mean, to bring, I didn't mean to reopen up that wound, you know.

[A]

I'm glad you did. Reminding me not to make that mistake again. That's why we're talking here.

[B]

Okay, this is a good one. What's the best, best advice that you ignored? Best advice that you ignored? That's deep, bro.

[A]

Well, when I graduated from usc, I was kind of lost for a little bit, especially in terms of my dad's regards for me, what my career was going to be. And I was kind of fitzing about, futzing about with the band, but nothing really on the horizon. Playing local parties, nothing real. My dad got me into the Monaco International School of Finance in Monte Carlo. Impossible. We can, my dad do the Prince of Monaco and all that stuff. We go out there. I stay at the lmitage Hotel for like two nights. I meet everybody. My dad gets me apartment in Monte Carlo. It is 1990, you know, it's like the best opportunity ever for anybody. This. I was probably going to marry like a Dutch countess or something, you know, it was just this next level. And I remember, I, I, my dad goes, this is for you. You should do it. And I looked my dad in the eyes and I had a sick, sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. And I knew this wasn't for me. I go, dad, this just isn't my path, man. I want to try the band. I really do. And the band had zero shot back then. He looked me in the eyes and he goes, you know, you're 23 years old. From my understanding, most bands don't get signed after 25. Don't pass this up. Don't pass this opportunity to go to school. And I passed it up. So that was the best advice. It's ironic because, like, it worked out for me, but the odds were gigantic and huge where if I had gone to that school, I think good things would have happened to me. You know what I mean? I bet on myself, which I always think everybody should do. But that was some really good advice that I passed on.

[B]

It's a high pressure situation too. You got dad there.

[A]

It was. Yeah, we were there in Monte Carlo, bro. Laramitage Hotel overlooking the Monaco gp, you know, Monte Carlo, you know, Course it was just insane. All these yachts and like that. Like, don't you want this? And I realized, Chris, it was his dream.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not mine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

[A]

Years later I realized that. But it was his.

[B]

That's good. Yeah, that's a really good way to put that. And I try not to do that for like my kids. I think I learned that lesson on kid one. So thank God I had three others to not fuck up. So I got, I messed up on the first one on. I'm trying to put that on them. I was like, okay, not gonna do. That's not gonna work, by the way.

[A]

When you realize your kids are not you, it's the most liberating thing in the world. And I, I say I and I mean that.

[B]

You know, you have, you have. Do you have twins?

[A]

Twins? Yeah. Do you have twins? I have twins. Yep. Then there'll be 16 next month.

[B]

Jeez. So, okay, okay, listen. Like I've got a 15 year old. I. Boy. Okay, so. Yep, gotcha. Gotcha. I got you. Okay. Worst, worst advice you followed. And I know you've gotten a lot of bad advice. Advice that you followed.

[A]

I've.

[B]

Everybody's gotten some bad advice they follow. But what's the, what's the worst advice that you, that you followed?

[A]

I think the worst advice we, we followed career wise for sure was we released a record that wasn't ready in 2003. And there was a lot of desperation in the record industry in 2003 because Napster was coming. The, the industry was falling apart and we had a little bit of like cachet within our label, Atlantic Records. So they were looking quickly to get some product out. And we were hitting the fourth quarter, which was the big quarter in the industry because it was the Christmas time. That's when like 60% of all records got sold for the year. So they really fast tracked a record. It wasn't ready. I knew it wasn't ready. And it's basically signaled the end of our commercial career at Atlantic Records. And I knew it then. I knew it wasn't ready. And our president's like, I heard the record. It's amazing. But he was trying to save his job at the. Just get product out there, put volume in his back pocket, and it wasn't ready. And it's. It's probably my least favorite record of all Sugar Ray Records.

[B]

You know what you should have said? Do you know what you should say? You should have said, y' all want a single. Say that.

[A]

We were just. We're not as counting as por. You know, we should have already had that. I should have played that porn.

[B]

Okay, this is my last one for you. This is my last one. Then we'll. Then we'll wrap it up. Yeah, thank you for that. But that is exactly what I was thinking when you said that.

[A]

So I was thinking that too. But I was like, where should we have one?

[B]

And he turns it into a single. That was great.

[A]

Yeah. There was zero that energy. I wish we had one.

[B]

Okay, what would you do if you had to start over today? Okay, this is. I love asking this question for what. There's some of the contractors, like. Because once you've had success and you take it all away, the name, the credibility, the brand equity, the whatever, but you can start over. Like, you've got. You don't have that today. You know, what do you do? So. So what would you do today if you had to start over today? But. But you know, Mark McGrath is not who Mark McGrath is, and sugar Ray is not who Sugar Ray is. What would you be doing?

[A]

But I still want to do music.

[B]

Whatever you want. Yeah. I'm just saying. But you don't have the name to, like, now you got.

[A]

The only path towards success in music today way is on TikTok and having followers on social media. It's the only path. So I would integrate that obviously, and it'd be my only focus. In fact, I've heard of labels saying, we. We don't even care about the music so much as how many followers do you have? So it is such a social media world out there. They. And labels have Gotten rid of all their departments. There's no A and R department. There's no artist development part anymore. So you have to do it all your own. You have to be completely self contained. You have to unit. But the irony is, and I said it earlier, it's never been easier to become sort of famous and infamous, if you will, on social media, but it's never been harder to stay there. There haven't been a lot of acts that have really popped off social media that have stayed there and become the classic acts we've talked about. Not saying it's not gonna happen or isn't happening now just hasn't yet. So I'd have to educate myself a lot more to the algorithms and how that works in terms of music. Thankfully, that's not part. I mean, I, I. Social media is part of my business because it has to be like everybody we're talking to right now, but it's not the driving force I would have to be today if I wanted to start all over.

[B]

Yeah, that's actually a good point because, you know, you hear those like the social media trends and then it's like a song and then it became a thing and then it was gone. And then there was no other follow up to whatever the song of the clip was.

[A]

Right. I think a lot of people still think like, I'm gonna get in a band and go to a club and someone's gonna find me. There's no more A and R our guys. There's no department to go find you. You got to go find them. So it makes it, so it makes it really difficult. But you can also get a lot more fast foodie, meaning you can bite the poison apple and do something that you're not willing to do to get more followers and eyes on you. But if that's not who you are, it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna crumble in front of you. It's not gonna last. So it's, it's a very slippery slope right now, Chris, more than ever.

[B]

Well, let me just tell you this. I think that, I think that's actually very relatable because you, I mean, social media is a thing. It's not going away. It's only becoming used and used more and it's actually becoming harder because you have to get, keep somebody's interests in like you know, a half a second to get you to the, to one second to get you to three seconds to get you, you got to keep it entertaining. But you can like, you can become successful if you can figure out those algorithms and put your stuff out there and do it over and over and over again. But you still got to have the same discipline that you had when you were building, building and trying to create Sugar Ray on that path to it. The same discipline of going out and grinding and networking and doing all things and, you know, shaking the hands and going out and putting on great shows, even when there's three people then doing it again. Doing it. It's the same thing. It's just now you got to do it in this technology space to continue to scale. Oh, and by the way, you might have to do both if you're on the road. You're gonna. Oh, for sure things.

[A]

Yeah. You better have the infrastructure built in. You better have all the qualities and characters that we talked about, because you're gonna be a hawk. Tua. You know, you go out, you have some weird moment you didn't even plan for, and you're a multi million dollar industry, but you don't. There's not enough there to sustain it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? And that was just some girl walking out of a bar, give a multi million dollar thing and then they try to play catch up. But the infrastructure wasn't there or the will wasn't there or the passion wasn't there. Whatever was there, you know, so it's interesting. You can get, you get famous overnight, but it's really a smart thing you said, Chris, you better have everything, everything in place, man, or it will crumble, my friend.

[B]

Yep. It's just, it's just like business. You got to have a good team around you to sustain the business, to help do the things that you're not good at, you know, consistently, you know, even when it's hard. And then you have a responsibility taking care of them to make sure they want to continue to work for you to do the hard things and sustain the business. Like all this stuff is. This is just business. And I think.

[A]

I'm so glad you said that, Chris. And I'm sorry to interrupt you because like a lot of times I get a lot of the attention on Chick or a. Because I'm the guy with the hair and the front man and all that. And that's kind of part of the gig. But it took a team to make the success. All the guys were going to Sugar Ray, were all responsible for the success of Sugar Ray, our producer, management. It really was a village building Sugar Ray. I've learned from so many people and I'm only Here talking to you because of others. I'm grateful now that I can still do what I do, but it really took a team to make this happen. There was no Oasis. Noel Gallagher, songwriter, writes all the songs. Songs. There was no Johnny Resnick. It was a real team doing this thing. Some guys didn't have the passion to keep doing it anymore. And I understand that we talked about that earlier, passion and driving and wanting to do it, but I will. I would never, ever downplay the. How valuable every member of Sugar Ray has been and was to the success.

[B]

And here you are, still doing it.

[A]

Here I am, by the grace of God, being good people like you, Chris,

[B]

still out doing the thing. I love it. Miss the 1998. 1998 people. Sexiest band of the year.

[A]

People used to. People used to pay to see me take my shirt off. Things have changed, Chris.

[B]

Well, listen, dude, this was fun. I appreciate you giving me the. The time. And. And it does mean a lot to me, too. And you. And you said so many nice things. I really do appreciate that. And it's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

And. And you guys can kind of listen, get the vibe of. People are like, how the hell does. We just. We just. It just clicked. It just worked. Like, we just. It just. We just hit it off. It was easy. But. But I think what it all boils down to, and I can see, like, the. The relation to all the. The success. I. I think that this is an easy success story. And Even though it's 2026, you're still out doing things and, like, staying relevant. And maybe it's at a different scale, but there's plenty that they don't. Aren't at all, like, at all. And that comes back to, I think, the way that you treat people and the way that you are open and that you are. You have manners. Like you said at the very beginning, like, all these things are what make you such a likable guy. And the good news is, is that you put on a hell of a show. You're entertaining, and you got the two things. Like, you have two of those things. You can keep somebody, you know, entertained, but at the same time, you're also thoughtful. I hired an artist to come and play our Christmas party one year that was excited to have a country artist, and I'm gonna put his name out there, but I was excited to meet him backstage. Backstage was such a letdown that I thought differently about that artist, so. And I was.

[A]

Did it ruin the show for you, Chris? A little bit.

[B]

It was. It was it, yeah. Man, A little bit. Because I was thinking, like, you just

[A]

said everything right there. You just said everything. And imagine that. Just an exchange that like. And by the way, you don't have to be like, like, hey, man, I'm a smart agent, just a gentleman. How you doing? Thanks for having me. That could be the exchange, right?

[B]

It was awkward. It was different, and it made me think because what I was seeing wasn't matching what I thought was the person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. And then you on the flip side was like, oh, this is exactly what I. What I would think that Mark McGrath would be like. And so, but, dude, I'm grateful for that, Chris.

[A]

That means the world to me. I hope you know that. I mean, I don't want to bore your viewers or listeners, but I just. That means the world. World, you know, and when you're. Like we said earlier, when you're lucky enough to make some friends in this business, like, I've got feeling you, Chris. I got a friend for life, man. And that, that's, that's, you know, that in my age, you can, you could add more friends to your contacts than doctors. You're in a good spot. You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, so I want to close the sucker out then. I appreciate, I appreciate coming, you know, coming on here, Mark, and, and sharing with everybody, too, and taking your time. I appreciate that. Super cool. And to our listeners, you know, hopefully you found that, you know, if not nothing else, that's entertaining. I always love hearing the stories and some of the things and the, and the real point of it, all of it is, is like, there's got to be some key just to success, regardless what industry that you're in. And I think I uncovered what yours is, and that's something that you can apply in any, any business. So, like, you got no excuse. Like, you can do these things because there's a lot of people that are willing to work hard. But how are you treating people?

[A]

For sure.

[B]

So to our listeners, you know, anything else, I hope that you open is exciting, you know, and leave comments. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate you putting up with me, man. Thank you, Chris.

[B]

And listen, as I always say, listen, we went over a bunch of different things, but here's why. I'll leave you guys with this. You don't got to do everything, but you got to do something. No perfect zero days.