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To The Point - Home Services VIP Room Podcast
The Art of Overcoming Customer Complaints & Escalations
00:51:19
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- [00:02]
A
This is to the Point a Rhino.
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B
Experience voted one of the top home.
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A
Services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the and getting to the point.
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C
Hey, what's up to the Point listeners.
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B
It's your boy Chris, along with my co host, Mr. Chad Peterman. Chad, how you doing, buddy? It's been a minute.
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A
It has been a minute. I was actually looking at my calendar late last week and I was like, you know what? We haven't recorded a podcast in a while and here we are, so excited to be here.
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B
And you missed me.
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A
I did, I did.
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B
I missed you too. Hey, our two. Our two teams faced off. You know, I guess I've been two weekends ago, the Colts versus the Cardinals. And us Cardinals fans, you know, don't expect too much. You know, especially because the culture playing so freaking good and give. You give your old boys a little scare there, didn't we? They did.
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A
The Colts, in true Colts fashion, managed to lose two start two players before the game started. So quarterback, backup quarterback got injured in the locker room and a guy got a concussion during warmups. I don't know how you pull that off.
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B
Yeah, with that, like, headband. He, like, did something to his eye or some show. It was crazy.
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A
I was. I was reading the article, I thought it was like the band snapped back and hit him in the face and they said it was a pole that he had it tied to, like gave way or something like that and hit him right in the eye. They had to take him to the hospital, like, swollen shut, like, damn, that was crazy.
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B
Well, yeah, I think the universe was trying to help the Cardinals not suck, and it still didn't work. So that'd be a great recovery win for. For the Cardinals. But in true Arizona Cardinals fashion, we lose again. Four straight at that point. So anyway, I planned on coming to that game, but not after we had lost so many games leading up to it, so I decided not to make the trip.
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A
I thought they were looking pretty good there at the beginning of the season, weren't they? Didn't they win like a couple of games there and then dropped a few.
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B
Won the first two, and we've lost the last four games by eight points total.
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A
But in exciting news, the AP poll just came out for the basketball season.
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B
Right. I saw that our old bullet makers are sitting numero uno where they belong.
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A
Oh, God. Hey, Final Four is an indie. Just saying.
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B
Oh, I'll be. I'm there, baby. I'm fine.
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A
Now, let's not count our blessings. The Boilers have a way of disappointing us sometimes. True.
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B
I'm starting to actually think now that I've, like, I literally have this conversation every Cardinal season. And I wonder sometimes, and maybe it's superstition, but I'm like, I'm starting to think the problem is me. If I just stop caring for the teams, maybe they'll start winning inevitably if I. If I stop. I've had Cardinal season tickets for 23 years. If I stopped buying them, they'd go. They'd go to the playoffs and, like, go to super bowl or something. That's how that would work.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, we're gonna jump into this episode. Chad, it's the week before Halloween. As this episode airs, and I know you have little ones, you're gonna be doing a little trick or treating.
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A
Yep.
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B
And probably a lot of the listeners, too. Same thing I thought, you know, rather than do some dad jokes this time around, I'm just gonna share some Halloween fun facts. But first, just to let all the listeners know what we're going to tackle on this episode. And this is one of the things that Chad loves to dress up as, especially as a little kid. And I'll share some of his adult costumes later, but he loves to be a firefighter, mainly because that's part of the job as you take on firefighting when you're on these businesses for. For quite a while. So on this episode, though, we're going to cover overcoming customer complaints, escalations that we all. That we all have as business scales and how to prepare for it. And then, so I want to get Chad's perspective from the companies, you know, from not only the company, but also from him as a leader. So what we're going to hit on this episode, and we'll walk through some of the common things that he. That he hears, you know, in the business and. And just how to handle these things and. And some things to look out for. So. But before we get there, you know, I don't have any dad Jos. Repair, but like I said, I have some Halloween fun facts. So I figured I'd just share a few things with you and, and, you know, in true Halloween fashion. But before I start. You have we started watching some. Some Halloween movies this weekend, so some, you know, some of the old school flicks. Do you have a. You have a favorite Halloween movie horror flick that you're like, this is the go to.
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A
So I know this is hard to believe, but I don't really like horror movies and I'm not a huge Halloween fan, so. I know. Yeah. Got to peg that one Couldn't you?
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah. So what I hear is Chad is not a fan of community, which is the community. So to throw out a few, I think I do. I knew. So growing up, I loved, like, because I'm a little older than you, as we all know, I loved Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street. Those are some good ones. Halloween was, you know, the older one. Psycho, Good old school horror flick, but one that's applicable to the great state of Indiana. That was probably the most scariest and sketchiest and it's super old schools. Children of the corn, let's see. So children on the corn, when you lived in the middle of a cornfield, was even spookier. Ah, the good old stuff. Hey, listen, by the way, did you know Chad Rick, that again, Chadwick is not his real name. He's let you know that. It's just what I call him. 20% of millennials bought costumes, their pets.
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A
That is extremely unfortunate.
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B
That would not happen. I can't see Rex wearing a costume. Where can I get one on him? No. And then. And you know, just so we don't let the listeners down, even though Chad, you know, has to, you know, be a firefighter from time to time. Really, his, his outfit that was my favorite was last year's when he dressed up as Dirk Diggler from Boogie Nights. That was my favorite. He would never show that. He does like Halloween. That was his favorite costume because it's who he feels the most like.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Hey, by the way, I know that I don't know if you guys are at. You guys are all carving pumpkins and stuff. I do all that stuff with the kids. If you're doing all those things, I'm assuming you're doing some of that stuff or painting them or whatever you do. But did you know that the largest pumpkin on record is like almost 2,800 pounds? 2800 pounds. That's a big ass pumpkin.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But even more unbelievable is the fact that 41% of Americans believe ghosts are real. Do you believe ghosts are real, Chad?
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A
No, I don't think so.
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B
You've not seen the movie Ghost? You don't think that was real?
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A
No, I have not.
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B
Okay, last thing this is whether you like Halloween or not. It's not the topic of candy corn. Candy corn, yes or no? As a good treat.
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A
No, that's terrible.
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B
Who the hell likes candy corn so bad? It's.
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A
I've done the. I've done that where you mix it with the peanut and it tastes like a payday. Like. But yeah, I Don't understand. I don't get it.
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B
I don't either, but to me it's a hard no, so. And by the way, kids don't like getting candy corn, okay. Just like, they don't want to get, you know, balls of popcorn or those nasty ass, like orange and black taffies.
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A
Yeah.
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B
No good. And they're bad for your teeth. Okay.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, so let's go and jump into this episode. I am excited to go through it. And, and we all go through this in different seasons and it seems like, you know, the bigger of a business that you get, the more you go through these things. Um, and it, and it's around the topic of firefighting and, and if I've learned anything in this process, and what I'm grateful for early on was that we just embraced, you know, to own it, you know, and not try and like, pretend like something wasn't or like try to, you know, make it seem like it's someone else's issue. Just own your issues because there's so much to learn in the fire that makes you better. As you move on with the business, it's inevitable you're going to go through it. You're going to have problems, you have escalations of all shapes and sizes, and you're gonna have to learn to deal with it, otherwise you'll destroy your reputation. And business is really hard to come by. But I think this is the, the perfect way to kick this thing off. So, Chad, my first question is to. My first question to you is, is the customer always right?
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A
I don't know if they're always right, but I think to your point in owning it, it's, let's figure out a resolution together, you know, do things. Yeah. You know, I always tell my team, if it gets to me, and I still talk to customers on a daily basis. I had two. I had a 80 year old lady just going at. I mean, she was wheeling and dealing. I was like, my gosh, I mean, she was, she was going after it, like to the point where at the end we were laughing like, oh my gosh, don't ask for anything else. What else do you want? But, but to me, your willingness to own it, you know, we have a thing. And if you're a member, Peterman Brothers member, you have what we call access to the Peterman Brothers. It's in our name. So, like, if you want to. Now we have layers of people that are trying to solve these problems before they get to me. But if you need to talk to me to make it better then. Yeah, let's hop on the phone. You know, like I said, I talked to two customers last week. One of them was mad that the compressor took three months to get in, and I was mad about that too, but kind of told her I don't really have any control over that. The other one, I can't remember what exactly it was, but, like, it was legitimate concern. Okay, yeah, you're right. Like, that's our bad, but just know we're standing behind it, not like we're trying to skirt the responsibility. So, yeah, I mean, I think anytime that you can one, own it, but two, come up with a solution very quickly. Like just that's. They want to be heard and they want to know that it's taken care of. And if you. We always preach one call resolution. Like, we want to get this customer taken care of in one phone call. It shouldn't be like, well, I need to check with so and so. And I got to go over here and I got to look at your record. Like, you know, most times an issue is send a technician out there to look at it and then work in the background to make sure that the manager knows and we're on top of it. And we get this fixed the first time because things are going to happen. We're working, you know, a lot of us are working on mechanical pieces of equipment. They. They fail, they do weird things. It's. It just is what it is.
- [10:46]
B
Yep. Yeah. And I think that. And I'm. I'm actually going to dig into a few of those things that you said, so I'm glad you kind of teed it up as we go through this. But, you know, from, from my perspective, it's, you know, and the reason I asked that question is you hear people teach, you know, coaching to that, you know, hey, the customer is always right and I disagree with them. They're not always right, but it's based upon their perception of what. Of what the situation is. Right. So. So in that instance, then, yeah, they might think that they're right, but they don't know. X, Y, Z. And so you can't think about it just like that. And you have to talk through the facts of the situation and then you get to the right solution. So I want to ask you this then. When you think about, like a customer complaint, what's your overall philosophy? Is it that you fix the issue or do you fix the process? Or is this like situ. Like, is it a lot to be. It's dependent upon the situation. But, you know, Initially, is it like, fix the issue or fix the process?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I think in the moment it's fixed the issue. Let's get the customer taken care of, let's figure this out. But I also think, you know, it's a great point is that like, there's a reason the issue occurred. And, you know, I know, I remember when we were smaller, it was just like, fix it, move on, forget about it. Whereas today it's more so like, how can you let this feedback influence how you operate? And it may not be like someone's like, it's terrible. It may just be like, oh, crap, maybe we ought to like, handle it this way on the front end and, and then we don't have an issue on the back end. You know, I think one of the main things that we get as a complaint, especially with these newer systems, is how to operate thermostat. Like, I don't know how to do this. Like, and it's not like a terrible complaint, but it's like, I got to send somebody back out there to, like, help you through it. So what we started doing is we made a video that we can we send to customers after the install that shows them how to work their thermostat. And, and it's like, you know, has it cut down on all the calls? No, but I think it's cut down on some because at least people have a resource to go to, you know. You know, we hope that the installers go through that. But at the end of the day, sometimes it's eight, nine o' clock at night when they're finishing the job and they may have went through it, but the customer's like, get out of my house. You know, let's move on. I got to put the kids to bed, whatever it may be. And so maybe they just didn't have the opportunity to do that. So I think all the stuff that you can take from this feedback and implement a solution or maybe a way to better that process is the only way you're truly going to cut down on these fires. We always say in the business, in our business, if you are consistently just taking care of things, yet never training so that you don't have to one day take care of those things, you're actually not a firefighter. You're what we call an arsonist because you're allowing fires just to continue to prevail throughout the business, only to never teach somebody or train somebody on how to handle that better.
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B
Yeah, that's actually really good. How to prevent it. Yeah. Be like Smokey the Bear, man. You're trying to prevent forest fires.
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A
That's right.
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B
I never heard that. That's actually really, really good. Yeah. Because I mean. Yeah, I mean, by. By you not actually solving the problem or fixing the problem, you're causing, you know, future fires. And that's what you're talking about. Yeah. And I think what this boils down to as well is, you know, it could also be when I think about fix the issue versus fix the process, it could also be that the process is just fine, but the issue is the actual human being managing the process. Right. On your team. And that's where you're. You talk about training can come in to fix that, you know, future fires by focusing on that person. So. So that could be the situation too. It's maybe not necessarily just the customer.
- [14:24]
A
But I think too. So one thing that we run into quite often and have this year is a process can work really well. When you're a certain size and then all of a sudden you get to a point and you're running into issues, and certain people who may have created those processes or are really tied to those processes don't ever want to look at the process because they're like, well, it used to work. And it's like, yeah, yeah, but it doesn't now. So, like, we need to change the process. And I think an important thing, especially from a leadership perspective is, is creating a safe space, creating that trust to where people aren't so, like, afraid to say, like, oh, well, what we created doesn't work anymore because as your business evolves and grows, like, things are going to break. And it's not like, because of your shortsightedness. It's more so because, like, the business is different today than it was five years ago. And that process may be kind of somewhat antiquated, and we just need to update it or modify it or change it or whatever the case may be.
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B
Yeah, I feel like I live in a constant state of process of evolution over here in my world. Yeah.
- [15:35]
A
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- [16:27]
C
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- [17:02]
B
I mean you talk about the adoption of AI and all the, you know, all the adapting we have to do and learning and you can, and you have to create a process around what you've learned at the time, time. And then two weeks later, Google pushes the Reddit rankings off onto like page three or four and next thing you know, our Reddit process just changed and had to shift to a different platform to help with, you know, chat GPT ranking. Like, it's just, that's the. I gotta deal with them on constantly is that. And we, that, that, that kind of actually segues into my next position. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get back to the company, but I want to, I want to go to us as leaders on like how we have to adapt to this type of stuff from a leadership role. But what are the, what are the most. Man, this might be a little bit hard I guess for some of our, for some of our listeners given the size of their businesses. So kind of, so kind of think through it, you know, Chad, through your journey. But what are the most common fires like you have to put out as the leader? Now I'm not talking like, you know, Mrs. Jones, who's 80s year old called you or whatever. I'm talking like in the business, you know, from the business perspective, like one of the most common fires you're, you're dealing with. I'll bet you some of this stuff is still similar to things that you're dealing with, even at a smaller size.
- [18:11]
A
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for me it's change management, right? It is. The business is evolving. You mentioned AI, you know, like if you're not paying attention to this stuff, you better figure it out because it's here, you know, we have so many elements of it already working in the business that we're trying to fine tune and different stuff like that. And I think for me, there's two fronts. There's the change management side, and then there's the people management side of that change management. And I think where we. We kind of struggle the most is as we've grown, we've brought in new perspectives into the business, but then we also have our tenured perspectives in the business. Neither is wrong, however, when new people with a different perspective start to look at these things. We have to be able to create an environment where everybody feels safe, because what happens is no one feels safe. It's just constantly trying to figure out why the other person's idea won't work. And oftentimes it's a combination of the different perspectives which make the best process. And so for me, it's like my job to, like, kind of navigate all of these, you know, some. These feelings and perspectives and all of this to make sure that everybody's on the same page. You know, we had a great example of it last week. Last week we're working on some changes in our dispatch and stuff like that. A lot of AI stuff and all of that. And there was the talk of, like, why are we doing this? Well, one side had a perspective of, like, this is why we think we're doing this. And there was another side that was like, well, I think we're actually doing it for some other reason. And I finally just spoke up in this meeting. It was Friday morning. I just spoke up and I said, hey, I just want to let everybody know why we are doing this. We are doing this not because of this, but because of this other thing. And, like, it was like light bulbs went off, like, oh, okay, well, now that we're all aligned, like, let's go figure this thing out. And I think it's, you know, everybody kind of has their side. And again, not that they're wrong, like, everybody has a good perspective on the problem, whether you've been here a long time or you've been here only a short time. But it's.
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B
It's.
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A
How do we create that space where all ideas are welcome and we can work to the best solution for the company moving forward.
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B
Yeah, man, that's so important because one. One, you get the best out of everybody by doing that. But as soon as you try to shut somebody down or make them feel stupid, well, then they don't want to share, and then it becomes toxic. That's usually what it leads to, and I mean this happens if you've ever done, if you've ever done like you've experienced this. But to the listeners, if you've ever been through an integration, you experience these things too because there's loyalty to, you know, to whatever the company is they come from and, and those processes or those thoughts or those, you know, values or whatever. Like you have to make a safe space for, you know, nobody's wrong. It's just different perspectives through different experiences and lenses and, and in the middle somewhere is probably an even better solution combined. And you have to create that safe space to have those conversations. By the way, this happens in business. All in Chad's talking about, even as your team scales and you're bringing people from the outside who, you know, who have a different perspective, they're not wrong. It's just different. And you have to make it, you know, you have to make it comfortable. And by the way, you have to make it to where your, your leadership is doing the same thing. And sometimes that requires some training because people don't have that kind of EQ to, to work through that.
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A
For sure. Yeah, I think it's, it's a battle that, you know, we're trying to teach to all layers of leadership, whether that's middle management, whether that's senior leadership, whether that's frontline, whatever it is. It's like how do we, how do we make sure that everybody feels heard and then work together to figure out the best solution?
- [22:07]
B
Yeah, I think we can leave it at that. I mean that's a good one because I have so much on the actual business side that I want to get to as far as the company goes and not so much me and you personally in our leadership or our now I want to talk about the most common fires that, you know, Peterman Brothers has to, has to put out as a company. You know, if like the tech doesn't show up on time or like you talked about the compressor, like, or like those things. But what are. So maybe this is a bit of a two parter if you can tackle it. Chad is it. It's one of the most common. Now remember for our listeners who don't know, Chad has H Vac plumbing and electrical underneath the Peterman Brothers brand. But what are the common fires that you guys have to put out as a company and what's the root cause behind them? Like, you know, you, I think you and I have talked about this before, but I was coached at one point to look at myself and say even no matter how Far away I am from a situation is I have to figure out what's my part in this. Even though I didn't, I wasn't there, I don't even know about it. Somehow something was broken and if all things roll uphill and it's on me, well, somehow I've got fault and I just don't know what it is. So I'm trying to what's my part in this? But to be able to figure out what the root of the problem is is where I was going with that. So. So maybe just share what some of the most common fires that you guys deal with at Peterman Brothers that you probably do training on and maybe what's like the root cause behind them that our listeners could be be on the lookout for.
- [23:35]
A
Are you talking, are you specifically asking between us and the customer?
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B
I think yeah, between you and the customer. Whether it's a technician or a csr, some of them or whatever, for sure.
- [23:44]
A
So I think, you know, if I have to think about fires that we have to put out, I think scheduling is one of them where we don't always hear the feedback, but it may result in an unbooked call or something like that. I think that's been, you know, there was a, it's a long standing kind of nextar practice to do flex scheduling and that they taught that from day one. We implemented it day one. I think it worked really well when we were smaller. But one of the things that we're looking at doing is going back to time windows. And I think that that's kind of a societal thing. I think there's a piece of that where people are busier. And so it's like, I need to know when you're coming and I don't always answer my phone. I think is another big one. And so I think that's one that we're working through right now that is a fire for our customers because they don't like the way that we schedule. So we're constantly having to like overcome that. And ultimately what happens is they put us on their schedule, which is like the opposite of it. It's like, well, you need to be available today so that we can take care of customers who maybe have no heat or no cooling or, you know, it's an emergency and they're like, well, then I can't be available till after 4. It's like, well, we're effectively doing time windows. We just don't get to do them on our like, like the way that we want them. So I think the scheduling piece is one that we hear a lot of feedback around and that we're looking at fixing right now, which is good. I think the other one is just a communication breakdown between technician and customer. You know, we may view them in very kind of siloed lenses as it's a price complaint, it's, you know, a quality complaint, but I think at the end of the day, it's a communication complaint. We never connected with that customer to let them know what we would be doing, the value in that, you know, in those things that we were doing. And so I think those are kind of the biggest ones. Like, if we get a customer complaining, it's either the thing doesn't work like it should, which is a technical piece of it. But I think a lot of them are just frustration around. They don't feel that they got the value for what we charged for, you know, and we talk all the time on here about charging what you're worth and charging the right price and all of that stuff. But I also think that there's a piece of, like, you have to also demonstrate that it's not a just charge the price because that's what it costs to be in business. If you charge the price and the customer didn't feel that they got the value, well, then that's your problem. You're trying to put value on a service. So the way that your tech communicates with the customer, the way that they perform the work, the way that they clean up their mess, the way that they do all of the things contribute to do. I feel like what I paid for was a value. And so I think that those are kind of the big ones. I feel like that we handle. I think that there's only really two thing like we talked about. It's like kind of a process or a kind of a service delivery issue that we're constantly training on.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah, you actually bring up a good point early on when you were talking about it in regards to expectation on time frame for to be at the job. And I think about it like, selfishly, like myself. And it's, you know, I went. If we're like, here's a perfect example of something that we. That we've dealt with is when you're expecting someone to be at your house at a certain time. And it's like, you don't have, you know, a Jamie, you know, my aunt who. It works for me to be at the house to take care of things, and I have to go. I have to take the time to do it. The Worst thing that can happen is the technician doesn't show up in that time frame. That is the worst thing that can happen because it's like they look at it as not only you didn't show up, but how much did. I just, I just took my time, maybe a couple hours. And by the way, I like, they have the right to be pissed off if you didn't make a time frame you committed to. Yeah, but it escalates so quickly. And the longer, you know, you also said that really the complaint is communication. And I completely agree with you. And, and it could have been solved if there was better communication on why it is that you're going to be delayed. Would it frustrate the customer? Maybe, but at least you communicated. It frustrates them more when you don't. Yeah, but half the time it's just, it's the communicate. There's a communication breakdown somewhere. And, and, and by the way, I don't know about you or your experience, Chad, but the longer you wait, the longer you wait to reach out, communicate with someone with an issue, the more pissed off they get. Like, nobody gets happier the longer they work. They wait for resolution. Like nobody's getting happier about it. And that's something, that's something that we talk about in here in Rhino often. It's because as you know, like when we're, when you're managing 1200, 1300, you know, contractors and they reach out. Well, there's only so many people in here too. It's like, you know, remember when we used to. We. People would talk about you can't overstaff for summer because you can't carry them, you know, you can't carry them into the, you know, spring or fall or whatever. We bump into those solutions here as well. So we get spikes, you know, during different seasons and, and you know, it's, it's pretty simple. We have a process, man. If somebody calls in before 3pm you reach back out to them. Even if it's. Just acknowledge that they, that they reached out and you'll solve their problem the next day. If it's after 3pm, it's by 10am the next morning. It's easy. Process still dependent upon the person running the process. All I gotta do, man, is one simple acknowledgement of the message and we're gonna be, and we're gonna be okay. So communication to me is oftentimes, I think, the, the biggest issue now. Now you said earlier that, you know, and it's kind of like when things get to us, you know, me or you as the leaders in these businesses, they're not usually the best situations. Usually they're the shittiest situations. Right. Because we're the one. If it got clear to us it went through some different channels or through some different people to get to us more often than not now. So. So do you guys, then you must, you must. Like, we do have like a defined, you know, chain of escalation that everyone goes through. Is it. Is it more situational based? Like, nobody can just get straight. Straight to you. There is a process or an escalation process you have, Right? Like a chain of command.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, for sure. I mean, they're going to try to solve it. So we have what we call customer care, which is, you know, individuals who are, you know, trained to deal with these, you know, situations that aren't great. And so, you know, if we're to take a call, it goes straight to them. And then their goal is to resolve that on one call. One call resolution.
- [30:41]
C
Now.
- [30:41]
B
Sure.
- [30:42]
A
One of that one call resolution may be as simple as, let me get a technician back out there to take a look at this and, you know, we'll get it solved. You know, it's not like they're fixing things over the phone. They're just handling it, trying to de escalate the situation. And oftentimes that can go to, you know, there's. There's a couple different levels before it reaches me, but sometimes you get customers. Like, I really want to talk to one of those brothers. You know, are they real? Like, who are they? And so, like, I'm happy to take those. Like, you know, I'll talk to customers, customers all day. I've done it as long as I've been here. I'm not above that. And honestly, not to take away from anybody, but if there's anybody that can make the situation okay, it's probably me. So why not talk to them and save a customer relationship if you have the ability to. It doesn't take that long. And I'm sure many business owners are thinking like, oh, my gosh, the CSR and the manager said this person was just off their rocker. And then you get to talking to them and they're like, yeah, you know, I kind of blew that out of proportion. I apologize. You know, it wasn't that bad. And I just really like to get it taken care of. Yeah, we can do that. No problem at all. We got you taken care of. It's not, you know, not a huge deal. And so to me, if you have the ability to de escalate the situation given your, you know, your position or the fact you own the company or whatever it is. Then take that opportunity. Don't shy away from it.
- [32:11]
B
Yeah, you actually make another good point there. I've given you a lot of credit already. Like I appreciate that.
- [32:16]
C
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B
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- [34:15]
B
You know I think it's you you. You said something like when the when they reach out and complain or to a technician or to a csr, there's also a way in which they hear it and I use air quotes for those listening only and how they hear the complaint because it's more than just about the tone. You know that the that the person uses and you have to be able to and by the way like this is. This is not everybody has this. I like to like to think most people don't have this, and it's a trained skill, is you have to learn to see and understand behind the tone of the complaint. Like what the person's saying and how they're responding is just how they know and how they've learned to respond based on what they actually think the issue is or isn't. And so you have to be able to decipher that. And I think at its simplest form, you just have to be like, whenever I, like I had a, you know, I had the escalation call, you know, this morning, you know, both Anna and I are on that call. That's how, you know, it's pretty serious. And we both go into it knowing we want to solve the issue no matter what it is. And we'll do whatever it takes to make it right. We always will do what's right. So let's let them tell us knowing they're going to give us their complaint from their perspective. Then we'll look at the facts and then we'll come up with the solution. So, and you. And if you can set the tone right away, like, hey, just so you know, Mrs. Jones, my intention on this call is to do what's right and to find the best resolution because, you know, we, we've earned a good reputation over all these years of doing the right thing. And whatever this is, I'm certain we can get it squared away. Like just set the tone right off the bat because that's what we genuinely want. But there's some training that has to be done for those who don't. Because people will get defensive, right? Like, because they hear it and they feel attacked and they're on the defense and you know, but, but to all of our listeners, especially if you're like a, you know, if you're still one who you're, you're a smaller company, you're the one that's getting the escalation or the call. Like it's okay to not have it all figured out, you know, but the but. Or if it's your technicians, like you'd be, it seems silly, man, but you gotta do some training on it. Some coach, you can do some one on one stuff with it. Just, you know, back and forth. Like role playing sucks, nobody likes it, but it's actually so freaking good to do role playing because it's uncomfortable. But so are those situations. The worst thing you can do is not do it and keep having those fires and, and not learning how to handle them. But a lot of times I think that when you don't have that skill Chad, like, to. To really understand what they're trying to tell you and. And to be able to solve the problem, like, amicably and to do what's right. You have to. You have to take a step back and be like, what are they actually really trying to tell me? Once I can look through the yelling and the. You know, all that stuff.
- [37:01]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's. You make a great point in that. Like, it. Any complaint, any fire that you have to put out is an opportunity to get better.
- [37:12]
B
Yeah.
- [37:12]
A
That's what I tell every customer. I'm like, thank you so much for sharing this. Like, I get it. We goofed mightily here. But if you wouldn't have shared this, then we couldn't have gotten any better. And that's what we're here to do. We're going to make mistakes, and I hope you can, as a customer of ours can understand that we're going to make mistakes, but we're always going to stand behind it. We're always going to try to do what's right, and we're going to be here to help you. And I think when you can put your. When you frame it like that, it's really darn difficult for someone to, like, blow it out of proportion. Like, I mean, come on, man. What do you want from me now? Have I had a few? Probably. But, you know, the vast majority of them understand, like, well, yeah, okay. You know, it is what it is. You know, my favorite complaint is, well, you couldn't get out here fast enough. And I'm like, you know, usually my thing is, like, you know what? That is a great point. That is why we started our own school to train technicians. And if you know any technicians, please send them my way. Because as you could probably know, this is kind of a dying trade. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. And a lot of them don't think about things. It's like, yeah, it's not like I just have an endless supply of people that I'm just, like, throwing at the problem. When it turns off 100 degrees here in the Midwest, yet you and everybody else is calling. There aren't enough technicians in the damn city to take care of everybody that doesn't have cooling. I'm sorry. Like, we are trying our damnedest.
- [38:40]
B
That's really good. Yeah, I felt that one, by the way.
- [38:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, I've delivered it many a times. It's like, you're. You're asking me to solve a problem that I would love to solve that. You and me both, But I haven't figured that one out yet.
- [38:54]
B
You know, another part of this too, is getting. Making your. And we kind of touched on this earlier, is getting your technicians or your CSRs, anybody who's like, client facing to, you know, to own it. You know, to. To own it and to be. And to be comfortable to own it. Right. Because the worst thing that we have to do, I think, as. As leaders, and what's worse for the business is when we don't. When we don't make the team feel comfortable to own a mistake, because then we're like taking extra steps, you know, because they weren't comfortable to share that they messed up, knowing they messed up. And now we're like, trying to solve problems that actually didn't exist. It was the person. And. And you have to create that environment as a leader. There's accountability. Right. That comes with it, but there's also, like, a safe space. You kind of got to give them the safe space to mess up. And, and that's easier said than done because it only takes you like, one word that you could say that would make someone close up and not want to own it. Right. So it's. It's so important. But, but do you guys ever do like, any of the soft skill training like that or, or training on, hey, how can you make it okay for your team to make mistakes and own it to where they don't feel like they're going to be, like, you know, punished?
- [40:11]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think addressing different things and then allowing them to be heard. So we do a town hall with all of our field professionals every first Friday of the month. So our COO gets on there and kind of goes over the things that, you know, we allow them to submit questions of like, hey, you know, this is wrong, this sucks. This isn't fun, whatever it may be. And then we're able to address those. I think that part of creating kind of that safe space is to one admit that you're not perfect. I think in these businesses there's a inherent dynamic of there's the people in the office and then there's the technician, and it's the people in the office from the ivory tower telling you what to do all the time, and we never do anything wrong. And all these processes that we created in the conference room are actually going to work out in the field. And so that has been so impactful. I think I've talked about it on here. It's been so impactful for us because it gives the technician a place to, like, give feedback. If you don't ever allow them to give feedback or you just shut it down all the time, there, there. There is no safe space because it's like, well, why would I even say anything? It's not going to get any better. We're not going to be working on it, so on and so forth. I mean, I would say of the feedback that we get, probably half of it is like, that's a really good point. I don't think we went over that. We're gonna have to do that. Give us till next month and let's see if we can get that solved. And so it provides a little bit of accountability to people that don't typically have accountability. And so everybody's working together. What we've seen is the complaints. This is wild phenomenon. When you address the complaints and you work to solve them, you don't get as many. It's weird, right? And we're like, oh, that's. This is genius. Like, we went from like this laundry list of things that we needed to fix to now when we have one. Like this past month, I think we had like 10 comments like, okay, well, we can work through these. So I think that's the key in creating a safe space is just like you talked about with the customer, is letting them explain what their feelings are, not just coming at them and, you know, telling them why they're wrong. That, that's not a great, not a great way to do things.
- [42:38]
B
Yeah, you're not going to solve anything that way because immediately the walls up and then it's just a. Then it's just a battle. And, and again, like, I don't think most of us are wired to just properly deal with conflict, by the way. Like, no, that is, that just takes some, some time and situations. And to your point, like, when you're in the fire, there's something to be learned from that fire. Otherwise it's just a wasted, wasted opportunity and nothing good comes from it. But it could be that you need to learn how to, to deal with it better. And maybe when you're listening right now, you're kind of thinking, yeah, I suck at conflict. Well, guess what? You're probably the majority. So it's okay to say, hey, how can I get better at this? And there's different opportunities and trainings and stuff like that to, you know, to deal with that. I mean, I think my wife is like one of the most gifted people at, at dealing with conflict, like, in the most professional way. It's why I lose arguments that I know I'm right in because she's better at articulating it to make me feel like it was actually my fault when it really wasn't. But I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, the point is like it's, it's, you kind of just have to listen and, and definitely don't blame out the gate because you will get nowhere if you just start pushing the blame on somebody else or not even accepting some sort of responsibility. Like, even if you're wrong, you don't have to accept and say I'm wrong. There's a way to say, yeah, I appreciate you, you know, I appreciate you sharing that something simple, you know, that allows them to stay open. For sure. Yeah. But, but there's some training that you can do to help overcome conflict and you're going to have it for your entire life. So maybe sooner than later is better for you. Okay, so I'm gonna, I have a, just a couple, a couple more kind of questions and it's really more tactical and we maybe covered one of these a little bit. But when, when do you offer a, a refund or like a credit versus just like an apology? Like do you, is there something that you have that you make that call? Is it situational? I mean, this comes up and when. Nobody wants to have to give them a refund, nobody wants to have to give a refund. But sometimes that's the solution and that's what's warranted. But when do you make that call? Whether it's refund or just like an apology and making it right.
- [45:05]
C
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- [46:58]
B
So my suggestion, go with the leading.
- [47:01]
C
Company, check out Avoca AI. That's a B, O, C, A. I click the link below.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think I look at the situation, you know, did, did we, is there a place for us to take some responsibility for this? Usually there is. Now, how much responsibility? I think that kind of determines, you know, how you're going to handle the situation. I always look at it as if it's gotten all the way to me and we haven't fix the problem. We're going to either lose this customer or we're going to keep them. And so the way that I kind of look at it is like, well, how much am I willing to pay for this lead? Like, all right, here's what we typically pay per lead. This one's going to cost us a few hundred bucks more, and maybe that's what it is. And so I kind of view it from a lens of like, can this situation be salvaged from, like, is this a customer I want to do business with? I think that's first and foremost, like, are they coming at me like, you know, like a bat out of hell? Like, just totally unreasonable about the situation? Like, yeah, I don't want to give back money either. But at the end of the day, if we screwed something up, then we really didn't deliver the service that we charged for. Our goal is to provide, which I would imagine everybody's is, is to provide premium service. Well, if what I hear from the, you know, the story is that we didn't necessarily provide premium service, then it's not worth what I charged. And so I think that's where you got to kind of take a little bit of ownership on. Did you really provide the service that you charged for? And if you didn't, then you're kind of obligated to give them some money back. It really wasn't worth what you charged. And so that's kind of how I view these situations. Like, you know, the lady last week, we charged her. It was like a warranty, you know, I think it was like a coil that failed in, like, the first two years. And I'm like, you know what I kind of feel for you. Is it my fault that it failed? No, it is what it is. But can I cut you a little slack on the labor portion of this? Yeah, I probably can. And guess what? She was happy she had recommended her daughter. Like, understand the situation. Like, it's not all about being right. Like, if you got to give back a little bit of money, well, hey, guess what? You pay for leads all damn day long, and the customer never books. Do you call those people up and get pissed at them because you just spent a bunch of money on them? No. So it just is what it is. At least you already have a customer. And if you can make it right, well, they're probably going to be a customer for life because they know that you stand behind what you offer.
- [49:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so you think a little bit longer term with it, too. And. And you kind of get the feeling and like, in the. In the escalation, if they're going to be. If the. Even if the win is really going to be a win longer term, like, you kind of get the feel from how it's going. Like, hey, man, even if I refund this or do xyz, they're still going to talk. Like, you could kind of get that feeling a little bit from some people. Which kind of leads me to my next one. It's. It's. What. What's your approach then? When the company is technically right, but the customer still feels wronged? Those are the shittiest situations. Like, I hate being in those situations, for sure.
- [50:19]
A
I kind of look for things that we could do for them. So I had another lady not too long ago. It was the compressor issue, you know, and typically, when they want to air their, you know, the real complaint was the compressor took three months to get in. I can't do anything. The company was not wrong. We had communicated with her. We had told her what it was. Yeah, it was crappy. It was the middle of summer, and she didn't have ac. And I'm like, this. I feel terrible about this situation. Well, then, you know, they're bringing up other things and all of this, and then it gets all those. And, hey, you know, how about I do this for you? How about, you know, I throw an extra year of warranty on that part? That we put in for you, would that make you kind of give you that peace of mind? I know you kind of. It was kind of a crappy situation. It went out like throwing an extra year of warranty on a thing that I'm hoping doesn't fail twice. Like, that doesn't really cost me. There's a little bit of opportunity costs, I guess, if it did. But at the end of the day, like, if that makes them feel better, like there's things that you can do to help them out. You know, I've told people that of customers that, like, had a bad experience on the, like getting a hold of somebody or we didn't call them back or something like that, I'm like, hey, this number I'm calling you on is my direct line to my office. If you have any issues in the future, you call this number right here and I'll make sure you get taken care of that right there. They're like, really like this. Yeah, I said it rings to my office. Now, I probably won't pick up the phone because I'm usually not in my office, but when it gets there, a message gets transcribed to my email and I will make sure that it gets to somebody and you jump to the front of the list and that stuff doesn't cost me a dime. Like, and guess what? I knock on wood. I've very ever. I've done that for years. I cannot remember a call coming in directly because more times than not, they're probably going to have forgotten, lost the number or whatever, but it makes them feel really damn special in the moment.
- [52:25]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I gave out my cell phone number and, and I just say, hey, you can text me. And I know that can seem really risky to some people, but more often than not, they don't. They. Even in a shitty situation, they still try to, like, have somebody else solve it and not bug you. It sounds weird, but that happens to me often. And if they text me, it's actually good for all of us because they're looking at me as an ally to solve the problem and, and not the enemy. And that's exactly what I want, because I am an ally. Like, neither one of us want whatever the issue is, I promise you, none of us want that. We all. Nobody's asking for. We didn't start today and be like, how can we screw this person over today? Yeah, no, we're all trying to be helpful, you know, and. And I think it just comes down to, man, like, when you open yourself up like that, whether it's you handling it or not? You're giving them comfort that they have access to Chad or to. To leader to solve their problem if another one comes up, and that's a great situation, that's a great solution.
- [53:26]
A
Well, and at the end of the day, if it's your business especially, do you want them to have another problem, and if they do, wouldn't you want to solve it really quickly? Like, I just. Some of that stuff, like, I get not always being accessible and different stuff like that. But, like, that's kind of how we built our business. Like, I'm accessible. You got a problem, let me know. Like, we're gonna take care of it. I. It's not that we're not ducking from things.
- [53:51]
B
Yeah. Worst thing you can do is avoid it.
- [53:52]
A
Yeah, that should turn out swell.
- [53:55]
B
You're gonna be in really big and deep. And guess what? Your reviews are gonna get blown up. Not in a good way either. Yeah, man, I think it was. You know, this is just one of those things where, for this episode, when you're kind of going through it and, you know, and typically in this, you know, having been almost two decades of. Of doing digital marketing for home services companies, you know, in spring and fall, I always get it right. It's when it's never enough. And in particular this year, right. Where demand is lower, you know, and. But everybody's feeling the pinch and everybody's kind of. And it's not even so much like negative chat. It's just like, hey, man, like, help, help, help, help, help. But can you create some demand? And. And you feel awful because it's not like, it's like you couldn't get the, you know, you couldn't get the compressor any sooner. Like, I can't create. I can't make demand happen yet. You want to help and you feel bad, but you can't. Like, what are you gonna do? Yeah, and the best thing you can do is communicate, you know, communicate these things. And. And if you do it in a way, you know, that shows some, you know, some proof, then they can believe what you're saying is true. Right. You're not just trying to, like, skirt the problem. And that's kind of the situation, you know, that. That we as leaders need to, you know, coach to those who are also dealing with, you know, escalations, because they're always going to happen. And as a business skills, more will happen. They're never going to go away. No matter how good of a business you've got ever always going to be something because there's always going to be a customer, and there's always going to be the widget that goes wrong.
- [55:28]
A
Yeah. The minute the customers stop calling you for issues, just know you've got a much bigger issue.
- [55:35]
B
There's your problem. Yeah. Then you won't have that problem to worry about much longer. If you keep letting that, your problem's gonna be like, oh, where am I going next? Well, listen, man, hopefully that you enjoyed that. I didn't give you much, you know, preparation for that, but I knew that, you know, we. We all deal with it often, so it's. It's just part of the. Part of the battle that we face.
- [55:58]
A
Absolutely part of it. But that's kind of what we signed up for.
- [56:02]
B
Yes, sir. Well, listen, man, it's good to catch up with you, you know. You know, it hasn't been. We haven't been able to chat a whole bunch lately, but we're all kind of in the thick of it in the moment. But it's always good to. Always good to see you, buddy.
- [56:12]
A
Always good to see you as well. And, yeah, hopefully this helps. And, you know, if anything just sparks some ideas on how you guys may be able to handle some stuff like this or, you know, make situations go a little bit smoother when they do arise, because they will.
- [56:26]
B
Yep, absolutely. Well, hopefully we gave you a lot of good information that you can take and run with. If nothing else, maybe you can start looking into, you know, if, you know, if one of the things you took away was, hey, listen, I really suck at conflict resolution. Maybe this is your, like, this is your. Your sign to go and get that figured out. You don't got to do everything, but you got to do something. No. Zero days.