The Turning Point: The Moments That Changed My Business Forever

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: To The Point - Home Services Podcast

Episode: The Turning Point: The Moments That Changed My Business Forever

Date: September 16, 2025
Host(s): Chris (RYNO Strategic Solutions)
Guest(s): Chad Peterman (Peterman Brothers), Aaron Gainer (Eco Plumbers)

---

Overview

This episode is a roundtable with three seasoned home services leaders reflecting candidly on the pivotal moments that defined their business journeys. With real talk about turning points, leadership struggles, hiring challenges, and personal development, Chris, Chad, and Aaron share vulnerable insights and actionable strategies. The episode is a masterclass in home services growth mindset—covering how major mindset shifts, written visions, operations systems, and self-leadership enable companies to scale through adversity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Turning Point in Business Growth

• [08:58–17:55]
  • All three discuss not having a clear “big picture” when starting out but simply grinding day-to-day.
  • Writers block: early years are “just showing up”; major momentum comes when formally planning for growth.
  • Chad: Turning point was joining NextStar (2015) — seeing what a true home services business looks like, writing a 5-year plan, and seeing that vision manifest (09:33–12:21).
    • “I have a picture... from the first NextStar event... and looked at it in 2019 and was like, holy— we actually did what I wrote down.” (10:38)
  • Aaron: Similar arc—serious growth began after writing down a 10-year, $100M vision (2015). Hosting a peer group at $12M, giving back to the community, and jumping from $12M to $21M marked a pivotal momentum shift (13:47–16:48).
• Lesson: The clear inflection point came with writing down ambitious goals and building systems to get there, rather than relying on hustle alone.

2. The Power of Vision, Planning, and Sharing Goals

• [20:26–25:59]
  • Vivid Vision is critical. Both Chad and Aaron stress the importance of not just writing down multi-year goals, but articulating them to their teams (23:04–23:49).
    • Chad: Inspired by Cameron Herold’s "Double Double," shares a new vivid vision with staff annually.
    • Aaron: Breaks massive goals down into 3-year and 1-year plans (EOS system), communicating granular targets (calls, revenue per department, trucks, etc).
  • Quote:
    • Chad: “For me, sharing it with the team… almost got them, like, on my team. Like, all right, yeah, this sounds fun. Let's go chase this.” (22:14)

3. Daily Self-Talk, Affirmations, & Personal Leadership

• [25:59–32:11]
  • Aaron: Shares that for 10 years he’s said the same affirmation daily, keeping himself focused and persistent.
    • “My rewards in life are in exact proportion to my contribution, my service, what I give is what I get. My goal is to achieve a $100 million business by the end of 2025.” (26:02–26:38)
  • Discussion of the critical importance of self-reflection, self-talk, and consistency in personal disciplines.
  • All agree: Leaders need to work on themselves, not just the business, especially through challenges.
    • Chad: “If you’re not in the right mindset to help others as a leader, you’re not in a good spot.” (27:00)

4. Handling Adversity, Chapters of the Book, & Perspective

• [32:11–36:32]
  • Chris shares how even on hard days, gratitude and self-talk are what steer him through.
    • “If that’s the worst thing to happen to me today, big deal.” (33:36)
  • The guys analogize tough times as “just a chapter in the book”—the ending is still unwritten and can be positive.

5. Hiring and Leadership: Lessons from Bad Hires

• [36:32–46:10]
  • Chad: “A lot of the wrong hires are not the person’s fault. Most of the time, they’re our fault.” (37:11)
    • KPIs, clear expectations, and feedback are often missing in failed hires—leaders must own this.
  • Aaron: “You got to recognize the things you hired them for, and then hired them not for... now their weakness is driving me insane, but I knew it when I hired them.” (41:00–42:31)
  • Both emphasize the evolution of the leadership team as the company grows—people who fit at $5M may not fit at $20M or $100M: “That’s OK, be grateful for the ones who got you to that level.” (44:32–46:10)

6. Sales Leadership, Accountability, and Coaching

• [46:10–65:56]
  • Chris digs into sales team management—when is failure on the individual vs. the leader? How much should leaders own salesperson underperformance? (46:10–50:05)
  • Chad introduces the “Effort vs Execution” framework: judge not just on results, but on effort-based behaviors (yard signs, reviews, etc). “If you do all the things, I’ll work with you.” (54:08)
    • “Most salespeople want to be coached, challenged, inspired… if you don’t challenge your sales team, they’ll end up running the business and it gets dangerous.” —Aaron (54:31)
  • The best managers show the team how to succeed, not just tell them. “Let me show you the way, not tell you the way.” —Aaron (62:47)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chad, on Vision:
  “You get a lot of energy from writing it all down. That's the first step.” [20:47]
• Aaron, on The Power of Commitment:
  “For 10 years, every single morning I have said the same thing to myself.” [25:59]
• Chris, on Adversity:
  “If something gets to me or Anna, it's gone through some layers of shit before it’s gotten to me. I’m only getting the nastiest stuff.” [32:38]
• Chad, on Rethinking Bad Hires:
  “The biggest piece... where we've gotten better is when you don't set expectations and have KPIs... Most of the time, they're our fault.” [37:11–37:53]
• Aaron, on Hiring Weaknesses:
  “I already knew their weaknesses when I hired them... now their weakness is driving me insane… that’s on me.” [41:00–42:31]
• Chad, on Leadership Evolution:
  “My leadership team doesn’t look like it did at $5 or $10 million. And that’s okay.” [44:32]
• Aaron, on Sales Coaching:
  “Most salespeople want to be coached, challenged, inspired. …it’s fine to challenge them; otherwise, the sales team will run your business, and that gets dangerous.” [54:31]
• Chad, on Judging Managers:
  “Part of our bonus plan should be: How did they fare on the quarterly survey? Do your people like you?” [60:47]
• Aaron, on Leading by Example:
  “My goal this year is to show them the way, not tell them the way.” [62:47]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic Summary | | ------------ | ----------------------------------------------- | | 08:58–12:21 | Joining NextStar: Defining Turning Points, Vision & Growth | | 13:47–16:48 | Aaron’s $100M Vision, Peer Group Momentum, Writing Down Big Goals | | 20:26–23:49 | Vision Planning, Communicating Goals, Vivid Vision/Double Double | | 25:59–26:38 | Aaron’s Affirmations and Self-Talk Practices | | 37:11–42:31 | Mis-hires: Leadership Accountability, Setting Expectations | | 46:10–54:31 | Sales Team Management; Ownership, Coaching, Metrics (“Effort vs Execution”)| | 62:47–65:56 | Modeling Success: Showing vs. Telling as Leadership Practice |

---

Actionable Takeaways

• For Owners/Leaders: Write down big, specific, tangible goals. Share these with your whole team and recap often.
• On Growth: Expect to outgrow roles and relationships—show gratitude for those who helped you reach each level.
• On Accountability: Most “bad hires” are due to unclear expectations and lack of process—fix the process, not just the person.
• On Sales Management: Coach on both execution (results) and effort (behaviors). Regular training and clear, shared scoreboards are key.
• On Leadership Development: Personal reflection and self-talk are essential; invest in yourself so you can pour into your team.
• On Leading by Example: Don’t just instruct—demonstrate. Get into the trenches and “show the way.”

---

This episode delivers candid, concrete insight on leadership inflection points in the blue-collar trades, emphasizing clarity of vision, transparent communication, humility, and coachable systems as the foundational levers for real growth.

Transcript

[Aaron Gainer]

This is to the Point, a Rhino.

[Chris]

Experience voted one of the top home.

[Chad Peterman]

Services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the and getting to the Point.

[Chris]

Hey, what's up?

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

To the Point, listeners. It's your boy Chris.

[Chris]

We got Chad on here, and we got our buddy, Mr. Aaron Gaynor, also joining us today on our little special edition of to the Point. Hey, good to see you boys.

[Aaron Gainer]

Thanks for having you, sir.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Chad, what the.

[Chris]

You know what? I just noticed you still do not have your Rhino X Trophy. Where I can.

[Chad Peterman]

I do.

[Chris]

Where is it?

[Chad Peterman]

It's out here on one of the shelves.

[Chris]

I can't see that.

[Chad Peterman]

I can't see it. I'll grab it. I'll have it.

[Aaron Gainer]

Doesn't exist.

[Chris]

I don't see it. Doesn't exist.

[Chad Peterman]

Brought up a lot of questions around the office. Like, what is this giant Rhino trophy doing in here? I was like, ah, we won. We won an AW Award. All good. Congrats, guys.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, Way to make it sound real prestigious.

[Chad Peterman]

It is. I was just saying, you know, hey, the whole team, you guys won, you.

[Aaron Gainer]

Know, good stuff, enthusiasm from Chad for this award. It must have been really great. It must have been presented really great. Also, it feels like.

[Chris]

It was not ideal, but, hey, it is a prestigious or, okay. I mean, it's called the Charge Award, bro. You know, there's only a select few that have ever won it. You're one of them, I think four, to be exact. Okay, today's episode is just gonna be us boys talking about business. It's gonna be. The topic is the turning point. So it's the moments that changed our businesses, like our personal stuff. So, like, we'll kind of walk through some different, you know, times throughout our business and things that we, you know, that we recognize when we were growing, the things that we changed the, you know, the. That we've been through.

[Aaron Gainer]

I have.

[Chris]

I come up with a few questions, just kind of around, you know, investing in the right people, what the business success looks like. Some of the things we've been through, improving systems, like, say, like, just normal. So I have some stuff. I know, Chad. I think you have some stuff. But. But, Aaron, I don't want to let Chad down. So I have some dad jokes. I did.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

So yet again, another listener.

[Chris]

Shout out to John Carruthers from Best, Virginia over. And guess where he's at.

[Aaron Gainer]

Virginia. Yeah.

[Chris]

Well, Virginia Best. Virginia. I guess I just found out. He sent me this nice little dad jokes book. How thoughtful.

[Chad Peterman]

That was nice.

[Chris]

Thanks, John. He is a avid listener, so I appreciate you, brother. I Mean, we got a whole new bag of tricks here, boys. So, Chad, for days, baby, for days, I got some dad jokes. So I'm going to share a few with you and I'm gonna blow through these ones pretty quick. But the last one, the last one, we have Rio in here, who does social media marketing for us. I'm have you plug your ears in the last one. Okay. Rio. Deal. Okay, thank you. What's the best way to save your dad jokes in a Dada base, huh? Yeah.

[Chad Peterman]

Keep them coming off to a good start.

[Chris]

Okay. Okay.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

What's a skeleton?

[Chris]

Oh, speaking of which, guys, August and I got caught in the. In the sponsored ad trap this weekend, and next thing you know, I probably got a pile of Halloween decorations coming to the house this week. Damn it.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

And you can't.

[Chris]

Nobody can even see my house. Like, I don't even know why I decorate outside. So tucked back there nobody can see it, but I can see it. That went on a little Halloween spree. What's a skeleton's favorite type of. Of road? Come on, think. On this one you can get this one. A dead end. A dead end. Get it? Okay. What do you call a deer with no eyes? No idea. That was pretty good. I'm really disappointed in you guys right now. Okay, this last one's gonna be a doozy. I think I got it real. Plug yours. Take your headphones off. Something. Okay. What does a robot do after a one night stand? Nuts and bolster. I am sorry if I.

[Aaron Gainer]

That one's actually pretty good.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

If I.

[Chris]

If I offend anybody listening, I apologize. Chad gave me that joke.

[Chad Peterman]

Give you the damn joke.

[Chris]

He's just defending himself. Okay, well, anyhow, those are the jokes, folks, like it or not. Okay, guys, let's go ahead and jump into this. Are you ready? Are you ready? I can't help but notice Aaron specifically, not Chad yet because he's still a little youngster, but Aaron being one of the older friends I've got, he's got a few. A few more gray hairs kind of like I've got. So I just keep wearing a hat to cover them up. Although I did see a lovely picture of you in our group text when you actually had like, like dark hair, full head, slick back hair. You look pretty, pretty. Looking pretty sharp. What year was that? 15. 2015. Some like that. You even look the same.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah, probably. Yeah, it was an old.

[Chris]

Was it an old service titan thing?

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah, yeah, that was. Geez, man. Yeah, I don't know, 16, 17, probably. Yeah.

[Chris]

Boy, you look a lot older. Today than you did then.

[Aaron Gainer]

Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. Dude, you really gotta get somebody's spirits up.

[Chris]

Well, listen.

[Aaron Gainer]

I definitely can bench some more now these days. I got that.

[Chris]

You definitely got bigger. Okay. So anyway, for those who don't know, I got Aaron Gainer on here from Eco over in.

[Aaron Gainer]

Oh, IO always winning championships over here in Ohio State.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Shut up.

[Chris]

I shouldn't even given you this. Nobody gives a. Okay, we just got. But we have Aaron on here. Chad and I get buddy. And we just want to talk about, you know, a little bit of business today. And I figure, you know, it's. We have all of our different perspectives jabbing in, you know, in Indiana and. And Ohio. Aaron over in Ohio, I'm all over the place. But we all experience kind of the same things, you know, throughout our. Throughout our industry, right? All the ups, the downs, the fun stuff, the. When it slows down. I mean, it's, you know, in our little group text with everybody, we always see who's kind of struggling. It sounds like there's, you know, quite a bit of companies even outside of our group who are having a. A little bit more of a challenging year. Would you guys say that's pretty fair, right? So sounds like maybe we just talk about, like, you know, was there. I don't know about you guys, but, like, whenever I started the company, which was Brickyard marketing way back in the day. 2007, unofficially, 2008, officially, you know, because 2007, I didn't know I actually had to, like, register a business. I kind of just did my thing for a little bit, but I never quite thought that this business would be what it looked like today. I guess I don't know what I thought. I just thought, man, I'd like to start this business trying to, like, you know, do my own thing and hopefully just pay my bills. And getting focused on home services was certainly not on the agenda. But I did, like, gravitate towards roofing and things like that blue collar stuff because, you know, from where I come from, there in Indiana felt a little more natural, you know, to, you know, to work with blue collar companies. But I never quite thought, like, Rhino would become as one, as old and successful of a business as it has become, and I'm grateful for that. But I didn't see it, like, out of the gate. Do you guys. When you guys jumped in, like, you know, Chad, you jumped in the business, you know, the good old Pete Peterman showed you the way. Okay, Pete showed you the way. You got to jump into the business. Aaron, jump into your business. Was there like a moment when you guys got in there? Because once you get in, you're just starting to grind and do all your things and you're not. Maybe you don't really look at like, oh, hey, man, we, like, we're having some. We're successful. Maybe you had some, like, successful, like, moments. But was there like a real turning point when you guys jumped in business where you're like, oh, man, like, like, we're really doing something special here. Like, this is a pretty successful business?

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Chad, you want to go in there? Jump in there. You came into the choice, your dad's business. I started the business from ground up. Right. But, you know, we. We've had a lot of similarity in Chad9, where we joined Nextar and did some stuff. So go figure, brother.

[Chad Peterman]

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, the first call it. Well, we joined Nextar in 2015. Ish. We joined right about the same time. It's 20.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah.

[Chad Peterman]

Middle of 2015.

[Chris]

Aaron, you're about 40 years old.

[Chad Peterman]

Leave him alone. But so we joined in 2015. When I started working in the business in 2011, we were big into new construction, multifamily type stuff. And so, like, I would say for the first four years, I didn't really know I wasn't running a business. I was just kind of doing whatever, you know, just, you know, my dad always taught me just work hard and, you know, go at it and show up every day. I'm like, okay, sounds like I can do that. But yeah, I think once you join, once we join nexstar and like, you start to, like, see how the business actually operates. Because I tell you, for the first four years we didn't have, like, I mean, we weren't looking at booking rates or we weren't looking at like all of the things that we looked at, you know, call it starting five years ago. Ish. We never looked at any of that stuff. We were just kind of running. And so I think, you know, NextStar was extremely helpful in kind of showing us, like, here's what it's supposed to look like now. You got to get there. And then, you know, I have a picture. It's a document that I wrote on. And it was when we went to the first kind of nextar event and they said, plan out your next five years of what it's going to look like. And so me and my brother, again, we have no, we have no idea how to run the damn business in the first place. But we joined NextStar to try to help us. And so we wrote down, you know, we were going to go from I don't know what that says 2015. We were gonna. Or yeah, that was 2015 and 2016. We were gonna do $7 million and on up to 29. And I found the piece of paper in a Nexstar training book, like in 2019 and looked at it and was like, holy. Like, we actually did what I wrote down on this piece of paper and then ended up doing what we put down in 2020. And I think for me to answer your question, that was when I kind of knew, like, okay, I think we, I think we did something here. Like now, like we kind of know what we're doing, we're doing the things we' know we're moving in the right direction. But it took a good five years to like, figure to like feel confident that we knew what in the hell we were doing. And then I think at that point in time, you just start to double down on all the stuff that's working. And you know, obviously Covid was a huge help through 2020, 21, 22. But yeah, I mean, I would think it took me a while. I mean, almost 10 years. One not know what I was doing, figure it out in the middle and then take four to five years to actually kind of, okay, now we have something. Was kind of the way that ours worked.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

You were spending thousands to make the phone ring, but if your CSRs aren't picking up or converting, you might as well light it on fire. And what are the largest businesses in the country doing about this? They use Avoca, the leading AI platform in the trades. $100 million. Businesses like HL Bowman are operating with only nine CSRs because Avoca handles up to 80% of the calls. Plus Avoca follows up with your leads, grades your CSR calls and helps you strategize. So my suggestion, go with the leading company, Check out Avoca AI. That's a B, O, C A. I click the link below. What's up to the point listeners. If you're working with a marketing agency to drive traffic, what happens when a customer lands on your website? Contractor Commerce helps top contractors like Summit Heating who generated over $500,000 in new install revenue using instant estimates for H vac systems, water heaters and generators right on their website. And companies like my boy Chatty Peas, Peterman Brothers are building recurring revenue with a touch free filter delivery program powered by contractor Commerce. Rhino brings the leads.

[Chris]

Contractor Commerce helps you Close them. It's a good one, two punch.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Visit contractor commerce.com to start E Commerce today.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah, I'd say similar kind of journey there. You know, Chad and I, I think I felt like, Chad, when we had our first peer group here in Columbus, you came to and we were around $12 million at that point. I think we felt like we had something then, right? And not that we had something before.

[Chad Peterman]

I was, I was looking and I was. I told my brother, I'm sitting next to him, and I go, I need to know that guy because he's figured out this plumbing thing and I need to figure it out.

[Aaron Gainer]

And here we are. Right? So, yeah. And I remember you guys coming and thank you for being there. And I think we felt like that was kind of the moment for us. We're around 12. We finished that year around 12 million. Had a great year. We joined Nextar a few years back. We had been building some momentum and I think we went from 6 to 8 to 12 million and we kind of hit that 12 million and posted a peer group. It felt like the team felt culturally, we felt really good. We felt aligned. We felt like we had something to share and give back for the people that had spent time coaching and training us through nexstar. We felt like we're building big momentum and we went from 12 to 21 million the next year. So that was the catalyst for us was like, it was just a big swing. We finally had real momentum. We had a great marketing plan. But to Chad's point, too, is like, we go way back and 15 years, 10 years ago, 2015, you know, when I had, you know, that dark hair, you know, young, young guy, I wrote down a plan. To Chad's. I wrote down a plan. I said giving myself 10 years as 2015 is when I wrote it down, I kind of had it in my mind, but I didn't, like, own it on paper until 2015. I'm giving myself 10 years to build $100 million business. And that's the end of this year. And so, you know, I think when you get that ownership down and you start to go to work on that, that's really when I think I first felt like I had a business. Wasn't even when I hit it is when I actually, to your point, Jad, like, wrote down a plan and actually had a strategy and then started working. It is when I felt like I actually finally had a business because for years I was just trying to show up like you said, Chris, just show up and work and just try to make ends meet and try to learn what I could and just, you know, just try to be a good plumber. Right. And nothing wrong with that was just trying to be a good plumber doing good plumbing work. Right. But I didn't really have a strategy to grow my business or a goal that I could share with others to aspire to be and inspire myself. I mean, I needed something to inspire me to grow myself. So I think, I think that was the moment that I actually felt like I had a business. The moment I wrote that down and made a commitment to myself to grow a real business. The second time is I felt like we had something was when we got a chance to host peer group, had people like Chad and many other nextar companies now that are pretty big companies these days came to that when we were all kind of coming up around that time. And that was a catalyst and I think our team felt it and it flipped. And that flip went from 21 to 35 and beyond. And beyond. Right. So I think that's kind of the chapters I would say.

[Chris]

Well, I just want to call out one quick thing. Chad defended you when I called you old. And just so our listeners know, I'm like a year behind Aaron.

[Aaron Gainer]

Every time I see you, we have to go back and forth. Although I'm like, bro, you're not that far off here from.

[Chris]

I know it's crazy, but that was very thoughtful of you to protect Aaron.

[Chad Peterman]

I'm the peacemaker in the group.

[Chris]

Don't hurt his feelings.

[Chad Peterman]

He's hell, you know, everybody's yelling ra with commotion. Just everybody get along, get along.

[Chris]

By the way, for anybody that's listening, never heard Gainer's story. Like, we did a podcast a long time ago, but he's got a few podcasts out there. Re shares his, his story. It's pretty cool. You should go back and check it out. But the, you know, when I think about just our business, I don't think I ever actually like, you know, I don't think I, I had never had a number in mind. Like I was never saying I want to be a 10 million dollar company at 20 million. I didn't have that like the first decade, like it even, it wasn't even on my mind. I just wanted to like keep growing and like not lose customers.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Because I knew that once we like planted our flag in H Vac, like being solely focused on H Vac so early, like if you, if you mess that up with too many people, well, like you got no business because you got a Black eye and it's hard to recover. And, like, it was a really risky, like, decision. And so many people, like, there were so many people or gurus who had owned marketing companies who told me it was such a bad idea to focus on one industry enough so that I, like, would question it from time to time. Like, shit, this could go sideways quickly. So. But I think it also motivated us, you know, to. To really focus on, like, being good, you know, and taking care of the employees, who would take care of the customers and pay attention to the numbers and all that shit. But it also made us, like, when you do the same shit every day for the same type of customer, like, you do get really good at it, you figure it out. So I don't think I actually really felt like we were successful probably until, like, 2015 or so was the first time when somebody approached us about wanting to buy the business, which, like, I had no. No clue at that point, like, anything about it. And. And then they wanted to buy a part of the business and stuff like that. So I was like, okay, maybe I should, like, see what we're doing here. And then shortly after is when we transitioned from Brickyard Marketing over to. To Rhino. So. And that's when I was like, okay, I think we got. We got something special here. And I would say, like, the second phase for me was, man, we just hit the timing, like, so perfect. Once Covid hit, like, we had, we were like, the most prepared company for some shit to go down like that and to be ready for the trades, like, to take advantage of the entire situation. And I had, you know, at that time, I had all the right relationships with, you know, with Geiger and with Hanes, because Haynes was actually the first company. It was my first experience with private equity because we had two big, three big players as clients. Abacus down in Houston, Burki's, you know, in Dallas, and then Bonnie's up in Sacramento. And Wrench ended up. Wrench Group ended up, you know, coming Wrench and buying Abacus and Berkey, like, two monster players. And that was my first experience of meeting of, like, getting involved with private equity. That was like, 2015, 16, somewhere around there, like, from that same time frame. So I was like, shit, we got something like, good going here. You know, Anna was actually managing those campaigns. That's how. That's where we were at.

[Aaron Gainer]

That's why it was good.

[Chris]

That's why it was good. Yeah, sure as fuck wasn't me.

[Aaron Gainer]

We know that.

[Chris]

I'm not above, like. But I got I have a great relationship with these guys. Right. Did my job well.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

You guys have.

[Chris]

You, like, you guys talked about your goals. Like, you wrote down your stuff. And Gainer talked about hitting your 100 million, you know, 100 million mark. And how do you guys personally keep your day to day decisions, like, tied back to that bigger vision when shit gets chaotic? Like, you know, things aren't amazing, you know, at the moment, but, like, how do you guys kind of keep that shit dialed in?

[Chad Peterman]

For me, it's just looking at it every day. You know, I think there's a lot of, you know, you get a lot of energy from writing it all down. Like, that's like the first step. Like, okay, it's written down. Like, I feel good, like, I'm gonna figure out a way, I'm gonna do all of this. But, you know, and I think especially in these, these types of businesses where it's emergency service, like, something's happening all the time, like this, that and the other, it's easy to get distracted. And I think it's easy for events in the business to kind of pull you away. You know, I was thinking as you guys were talking about, like, what were some of the things that, like, what were like, the breaking points? Like, the times when you were like, what in God's name am I doing? Like, this sucks. I don't. And, you know, you just had to go home, get a good night's sleep, wake up the next morning, and it was all right. But I think there's so many things within these businesses that can pull you away from what is the goal. And I think the other piece of it is telling your team, you know, for the. I remember in 2016, we rolled out our first vivid vision to the company, and it was kind of like the breaking point between, like, dad's business and the new. This is where we're like, this is where dad took it. We're here now, but this is where we want to go. And for me, sharing it with the team, like, you know, and you're sharing these big goals where people, primarily, most of the people on your team have worked at these, you know, smaller companies where it's like, well, hold on, what's that going to mean? This seems weird. Like, what's that? You know, all these questions, which. Perfectly normal, but I think sharing it with them, like, almost got them, like, on my team, like, all right, yeah, this sounds fun. Let's go chase this. And I think so often as leaders, we have all of these great ideas in our head, right? It's like, oh, we're going to take it to the moon. Watch out. And then we're like, well, why doesn't anybody else want to do this? It's like, oh shit, I forgot, I totally forgot to tell you where the hell we're going. All right, here's where we're going. Sound good? To the point where we've published the Vivid Vision every year since 2016. So, you know, I guess next year will be its 10 year anniversary of publishing this document that basically tells the story of where we're going to be in three years.

[Chris]

Is that what it's called? Vivid Vision.

[Chad Peterman]

So you're everybody there's a book about.

[Aaron Gainer]

Vision actually chatting you. I think you read that book about the same time.

[Chad Peterman]

Yeah, Double. Double is what it's called. Cameron Herod, who is the guy, he was behind one 800, got junk and did a bunch of stuff like that. But the book is phenomenal. And again, taking it back to 2015 is when I read the book and I had no idea what I was doing. I like, I went to a company, I saw it, I was like, okay, I want to build that. I have no idea how to. And so like at that point in time I was just a sponge. Like if you told me that this would help, I was going to try it, you know, because I didn't have any other, I didn't have any other options. We were just going to figure something out.

[Chris]

Vivid Vision.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah. So similar kind of idea there, I think chunking it down a little bit too. So we did, we do, we were, we got really into the EOS model where you know, you'd lay out a 10 year plan and then you constantly keep moving that. Right. But really breaking down the three year and one year plan over and over and articulating that year in and year out to our team really understand, you know, what's our, what's our objective this year? That gets us to our three year plan, which then ultimately gets us to our, to our ten year plan. Right. And I think that's important. Vivid Vision. You got to, you got to articulate it. You have to have a true strategy plan and that people can actually buy into and understand to breaking it down. So we would, we'd break down the revenue, we'd break down how many calls we were going to run that year. We break down how much revenue by department we were going to do, how many people were going to be on our team, how many trucks we'd have on the road. We really tried to, similar to Chad's vivid vision. Ours was pretty dumber than that. I think Chad's. I've read Chad's vivid visions. He shared a movie before. They were very, you know, they're thought out, they're drafted out. Ours were more almost like bullets. Pointy and just kind of like to the point like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. There's no wrong way. It's just how do you articulate the vision to make it for people to be able to see and be able to buy in? So most of ours is that. And I think the other question that you have is, I think you asked too, is like, how did you stay back? Well, that and you got to be able to have, you have to have self reflection. You have to be able to reflect in life, right? You got to be able to step back sometimes and go, okay, why am I off track? Why, why are we not moving here? And so I usually try to spend Sundays a lot of time trying to do some reflection when I can. But one thing that I have done for the last 15 years is I know people might not get into this too much, but I, every morning I have said the same affirmation to myself for 15 years or for 10 years, I'm sorry, for 10 years since I wrote that goal. For 10 years, every single morning I have said the same thing to myself for 10 years. Remind myself every morning what I'm trying to accomplish. Right? And I think that's important because it reinforces it as long as you go do something. So I guess that was some of my way of reminding myself is that I had to tell myself every single day.

[Chris]

Yeah. Will you share what it is or you don't want to share what it is? Is it personal?

[Aaron Gainer]

There's some stuff in it, but I think at the end of the day it's real simple. It's, it's. My rewards in life are exact proportion to my contribution, my service, what I give is what I get. My goal is to achieve 100 million dollar business by the, by the end of 2025. And that's, that's the beginning step of it. So I say that every single day. So my principal there is, it's from Earl Nightingale, is our rewards are exact proportion to our contribution, our service. So everything that I'm doing today will, that I give to others will serve me back. And if I do that, then I will achieve my $100 million goal, right? And then I go to work. And that's, that's basically, that's my foundation of my affirmation every Single morning.

[Chris]

Yeah, I think self. Self talk is super important. Like, it is really important. And people think like it's cringy or stupid. It's like it's super important.

[Aaron Gainer]

Well, you're talking yourself all day anyways.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chad Peterman]

Mostly like, what the hell am I doing? This is weird.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah.

[Chad Peterman]

But no, I think that's a great point, Aaron. I mean, and I think it, you know, I think here over the, you know, when Tommy got on the big health kick and, you know, did all of this stuff, he still is, and I think he's inspired a ton of. Of, you know, living a healthy life. But I think there, you know, there's a lot to. There's a lot that goes on to building a business. And I think oftentimes you overlook yourself and you've got to take care of yourself because if you're not in the right mindset to help other people as the leader, you're not in a good spot. Like, that ain't gonna go well. And so like, the people that. It's so great that you shared that because I think people that like, you know, oh my God, look at Eco, this unbelievable business. Like, he just, you know, kind of hanging back and watching all the other. It's like, no, I'm working on myself every single day trying to convince myself that I know how to do this and I'm going to accomplish this goal. I think that's just so powerful for people to listen to, especially when these businesses aren't easy. This ain't for the faint of heart. You know, ask some of the PE groups out there. This isn't for the faint of heart, but, you know, you've got to keep fighting and keep improving and keep lifting others up, which I think is awesome.

[Chris]

Yeah. Go ahead, Aaron.

[Aaron Gainer]

I, I think to your point there, though, is like, I know we're talking about how you do is like energy transfers. And if you don't come to work with the right energy, the right attitude, it transfers to your team. And also, I think, trying to always be transparent and open. Like I tell our team all the times, like, I've never ran a business this large before. This will be the first year I ever did it. Right. So we're gonna figure it out. I'm new at this. I'm new at it. It's like we're all new at it because we've never done it before. Right. And so, you know, but we're going to work together to figure it out and we're going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes. And we articulate that. And I've always communicated that all the time because I will. And you know, we, all of us have, all three of us have made many mistakes in our business because we've never ran a business this size before, right? So I think also being okay with that, with yourself, giving yourself enough grace, but not, not. But also pushing yourself to grow, right? And personal development is the key to the success of your business. You know, I mean, I just finished the science of, of scaling the other day. I finished Endless customer. Like you still got to read, you still got to do stuff. And I'll say that it ebbs and flows a little bit. Sometimes you're a little more into it and you're operating, sometimes you're away from it. But if you're not feeding your own mind as a leader, you're in big trouble. So I think that's been the thing because I never knew how to run this business and I still don't in many ways. And you know, as we try to scale the next level, there'll be new lessons to learn.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Attention to the point listeners. Branding has never been more important. Is your brand in serious need of an upgrade? Do you have a new company and need a new brand but don't want to wait six months or pay a ridiculous amount to get it done? If your brand looks like everyone else's, well, guess what, you are everyone else. But Prolific, they build brands that dominate from the first Google search to the driveway. Prolific Brand Design can help you be.

[Chris]

More of you because you are the.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Unique difference that sets you apart from all your competitors.

[Chris]

So let's be real for a second.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Your brand is either winning you customers.

[Chris]

Or costing you money.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Just ask some of our clients like Ken Goodrich, Ishmael Valdez, my boy Chad Peterman, and even myself. Prolific Brand Design is the creative pros behind some of the best home services, logos, truck wraps, websites, and now email marketing campaigns. Wouldn't you love it if your email marketing open rates were 30, 40, 50%? And don't go into the spam folder. Hell, that's how we roll at Prolific. So check them out at prolific brand design.com and ask for the to the point promo. Prolific Brand Design. Be more of you.

[Chris]

Be Prolific.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

In home services, speed to lead is everything. Chirp stands out. By transforming your communication strategy with Chirp, accelerate your lead response time with instant sms, text messaging, email and ringless voicemail automation. Chirp's cutting edge technology ensures you're the first, first and the most persistent, helping you Close more deals than ever. But that's not all. Say goodbye to missed opportunities with Chirp's incredible follow up system. Keep your leads engaged and moving smoothly through your sales funnel without lifting a finger. And with Chirp deep integrations with top CRMs like Service Titan, Housecall Pro and Jobber, you can launch laser targeted campaigns to connect with the exact right leads at the exact right time. Automation creates efficiency. Efficiency unlocks scalability. With Chirp, you can automate speed to lead, estimate follow ups, rehash abandoned call follow ups, cancel job follow ups, review requests, outbounding to your list, annual reminders, membership expiration, follow ups, and so much more. So stop chasing leads, capture them, connect faster and close more deals with church. Contact Tripp today and elevate your communication game.

[Chris]

Yeah, man, it's, it's actually kind of cool for everybody here. You guys say that, right? As big as your businesses are like that, it's kind of a constant, you know, challenge, you know, for us. And we had to continuously push ourselves. I've been talking to myself every morning for a lot of years. And it's weird when you say it audibly, but I say it audibly. You know, I talked, I talk to myself. Actually, part of what I'm talking about in my presentation at home Service Freedom. I was telling Chad this earlier, AG is it's a new one I've never done before. So I'm like a little nervous about it, you know, and I've, you know, done 500 plus of these things over the last 18 years, but I'm a little nervous about it. But it's, it's, I'll kind of give you a little, a little sneak peek at it, but it's the power of words and like, you know, the play is, you know, it's how it's the power of the word that you use and how you use the word and like what it can do, how it can impact a human being, you know, and behavior. But part of that is like how you say and talk to yourself, like, is a, is a big part of that too. And I do believe in that. And I think that what's, what's interesting is as I've gotten older and this business has gotten far more challenging because it's probably like, it's hardest it's ever been today, right? So it's because there's so many challenges and every time you guys slow down, you know, I have lots of views. So I have to now figure out how do I, how do I fill a call board when there's no demand, you know, wave my little magic one. And it's easy to feel beat up. It's easy to feel real beat up because, like, you guys know, man, if. If something gets to me or gets to Anna, like, it's gone through some layers of shit before it's gotten to me. And, like, I'm only getting, like, the nastiest stuff, and then I have to try and figure it out. But one thing I've always told myself is, like, I know what my intention is. My intention is I want to do the best I can possibly do for every customer that I have. There's human beings in this business who make mistakes, right? The process could be in place, but there's still human beings that make mistakes. I make mistakes. But I go into everything, you know, telling myself, okay, I know that I always, like, my number one goal is to help these contractors grow. If we made a mistake, you own it, right? And. And I got no problems owning that. I also have no problems with holding our customers accountable for things that. That they're not right? Like, that's a good. Being a good partner. And it's just, you know, use facts to back it up. But one thing I, you know, I. I will tell myself is there's a perfect example. Like, I had the best day yesterday. Like, I woke up early. You know, it's, like, starting to be really nice in Phoenix in the mornings. Like, really nice. So I'm out in the backyard. You guys been in the house? I'm out of the backyard. Like, you know, I'm surrounded by mountains, which is gorgeous. And I'm just kind of like, God, man, I. Pretty cool life. Like, I am so grateful for what I, you know, for what we have and what I've done. And I feel like I've still got some more to go, and, like, I'm just feeling really good. Berkeley's about to go to college, you know, like, tomorrow she leaves. I'm, like, half heartbroken that, you know, she's going, and I leave. You know, the. I leave the house. And one thing about living in the desert is there's little bastards called javelinas, okay? And they love trash cans. So I had this great morning, man. I'm pumped. I'm leaving. I'm about to crush this week, you know, And I walk out, and there's the damn trash can. Fell over, all the trashes out of it. And the. And the trash truck already went by and said, nope, ain't picking that one up. It fell over because there's Trash everywhere. And it would have been really easy for me to been like my life. My whole day just went sideways. And it's now 8 o' clock in the morning now. I was frustrated now thanks to Jamie for helping take care of that little problem for me at our house. But I didn't let it with me, honestly. And yesterday was still a good day because I was like, yeah, like, it's just like this is like, if that's the worst thing that happens to me today, big deal. You know, like trash can drive over. But how you talk to yourself actually matters so much because I think, Chad, you were talking one time about how when we go through like shitty situations and hard situations in these businesses and we all make wrong decisions and we have to, you know, pay the price for the wrong decisions that we've made. Well, it's just a chapter in the book, right? It's just like that's the negative chapter in the book. Good news is there's another fucking chapter. And the end of the book, though, the end of the book actually has a happy ending. Right? But not all the fucking chapters are all like, you know, hunky dory. So I want to maybe, just maybe, let's just talk about this for a second. I don't know if you guys have ever done this before, but if I was a betting man, I am, I'd.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Say that you have. Have you guys?

[Chris]

Well, I'm gonna say this. When you guys have made a bad hire, when you've made a bad hire, what did you, what did you learn from it that listeners can. Can maybe, you know, hear to avoid maybe, maybe making some mistakes? Maybe the answer is don't do the interviewing anymore. But I know. Or the, or that your team made a wrong hire, right? Like that was a critical position and it was the wrong hire. And then we are responsible for recovering, you know, fixing right, Maybe just share some insights there on what you guys have experienced.

[Chad Peterman]

So I think for us, a lot of the wrong hires are not the person's fault. Most of the time they're our fault. Like what we learned from it is like, okay, you hired this person, you interviewed them. Everybody interviews well. Especially higher level positions. Like they should be able to interview well. Like that's like the first criteria. They interviewed well. Well, okay, great. So should everybody. I mean, they're going into a goddamn interview. But I think that the biggest piece for us and where we've learned and where we've gotten better is when you don't set the expectations and set the KPIs and have them have a legit kind of, you know, sheet that you can monitor their performance. Because oftentimes it's like, I love this. Like, oh, it's about time you fired them. They're terrible. Like, well, I appreciate you speaking up. That's wonderful. Great. But I think what we've learned is that every position should have their own set of KPIs. Yes, some positions are harder than others, but you have to have the KPIs in place, and you've got to monitor them, you know, pretty regularly to make sure that, like, if someone's falling behind, we're working with them, we're working with them to try to get them going. I mean, the one thing I've been so proud of our team for this year is I've heard so there are so many people at the beginning of the year when we meet with all of our regional managers and we go over, there was so many, like, well, Billy, he just don't get it. Ronnie, he just don't get it. You know, all these guys, like, they just don't get it. And I'm like, well, here's the deal. It's your job to work with them. Like, it's your job to develop them. And we've had so many stories of, like, a guy who didn't get it in February is kicking butt this month because we took the time to work with them. And so, you know, I think bad hires, again, you've got to look in the mirror. Why? Were they a bad hire? Yes. There are going to be a certain percentage of people that you just struck out on, like, it just didn't work. They didn't see it the way they thought they did, but they didn't. And things got weird. But I would say a larger majority are, because we didn't do our job. And, you know, we always say they never leave the company. They leave their manager. So as a manager, what can you learn from this situation? Is it a thing where your personalities just didn't jive and you weren't willing to kind of bend to, you know, cater to this person a little bit differently than you cater the rest of the team? Like, what can we learn from someone leaving the organization because we feel like we have a great place to work? And I would say that a lot of people around here would say that. But there is a percentage of the population that, you know, has an issue or we're not addressing or whatever it is. And so I think it's just important for people to look in the mirror and figure out what you can learn from something that didn't go right. Because a lot of the times we have stuff to learn and if we just keep saying, oh, person was terrible, we're awesome, we've got this all figured out. Like, we don't have it all figured out. We do stupid stuff every day and it's like, oh my God, what did we do? So I just think that's important to like, look in the mirror, analyze. What did we potentially do wrong in this situation where the relationship soured and they could have done things too, no doubt. Like, you know, you get the guy who did something, you know, like. Well, we can't really help that.

[Chris]

Go ahead, buddy.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's always an interesting topic because it's really, it's, it's, it's. It's on us. Like, I think I'm, I agree with Chad. It's like, you know, do you do.

[Chris]

Any interviewing or hiring today?

[Aaron Gainer]

Like, I do especially key positions. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm interviewing them, hiring them. I, I mean, I don't spend time on, you know, we're hiring, you know, maybe a couple. A student for the school or tech or something. And that may be mistake. We've talked about that too. But there's only. You've only been so many places so many times. Right. But if we're talking about like key hires. Yeah. And you know, pretty much most of the key hires that I would consider someone on a senior leadership or a general manager or a trade line manager. I pretty much have been involved with those language. So all of them have been somewhat my fault. Not someone, my fault because we hired them and I let him hire them. And so, you know, when you say, what did you learn from them? I think, I think I learned a couple of things. One, you got to recognize the things that you hired them for and then hired them not for. Right. Because I think what happens a lot of times for me has been, is I know the things I hired them for, but I also already knew their weaknesses when I hired them because everybody has weak like weakness. And then their weaknesses start to annoy me. But I knew it right. When I hired them. And now their weaknesses is driving me absolutely insane. And that's on me that I. That I hired somebody for a weakness that I knew they had.

[Chris]

I feel that I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Aaron Gainer]

Right. And then now, now you're frustrated at them. But the bottom line is you made that decision. I made that decision. Decision. Right. And usually you kind of knew what they were. Some of them creep up on you. And then I think so that is just trying to be self aware of that and realize that and then recognize how do you, how do you manage the expectations of yourself with other people? That's probably my biggest, my biggest thing is that. And then I think, you know, just realizing that there's different, different people for different positions and really just kind of understanding the pace of what kind of person you need for a position too. You need different people with different paces of who they are to do different jobs and they're not all the same. And sometimes I try to get people that maybe have my pace for, you know, for a job that isn't my pace, you know, that's more of a planning and organizing job versus a go getter. Or sometimes we, you know, we end up putting somebody that's more of a slower paced person in a, in a daily driver position. And so just really trying to understand the pace of people and what the role and what your expectations are, the pace of that. So, you know, I don't know if those are super insightful, but I think it's just, you never know. It's really hard. I know people want some like silver bullet to solving this problem. You just don't know because maybe like you said, you know, every culture of your business, everybody's culture of their business a little bit different. So every person, somebody might work really good at Chad's culture and not mine, right? It might be mine or not Chad's, I don't know. Because of just the culture of how you operate and move matters also. So like if you want, if you're, if your culture is, you know, more of an upbeat, get after it. Go. I want intensity from everybody all the time. They may not fit in into your, into your culture. Even though they're great, they're great at what they do, but they're not fitting the culture of the dynamic of the business. Right. So I think that matters. Doesn't mean their stone couldn't be a great person at another organization. And they probably were. That's the reason why you hired them. Right? But do they fit the culture of the upbeat for that? And I say that, that's got me a couple of times.

[Chad Peterman]

I was just going to say one last thing because he brought up something that I think is important too, is that like also don't be so hard on yourself. Like I think Aaron would probably relate to this. There were people in your business at 5, $10 million that were great until you reached another certain level and then all of a sudden that this isn't them. And again, I don't think that's a reflection on them. Okay. Maybe they didn't scale as fast as the company did. And I think in a fast growing company, you're going to run into these walls of where people can't, they can't jump over that. And that's okay. It doesn't mean that they may not jump over it at another place or, you know, some point in time. But also looking back on and being grateful for, there were certain people that entered the business at a certain point and they've exited. However, they were really important for us to get to that next level. And yeah, they weren't a fit for the level beyond that. But also you're going to have that. I mean, I don't know about you, but like, my leadership team doesn't look like it looked at 5, 10 million bucks. It's a little bit different. And that's okay. That's nothing against those people that maybe aren't with us anymore. It's just, hey, you have to be willing to evolve and either grow that person or if they hit a ceiling, hey, maybe it's time to part ways as friends and maybe you find a new opportunity and I'm going to have to bring in someone else who can help get me to the next level.

[Chris]

Yeah. I want to actually just touch on one thing. As you guys were both talking, it made me think about, you know, the only real hiring I ever have done in any time recently would have been like, sales team. So like today, you know, my job is I'm over sales and marketing pretty much like it was before we brought on our private equity partner and I was covering all of operations, everything else. I'm over sales and marketing. So the thing that I always, I always like, I wreck. I try to like, wrap my head around is a sales leadership role. Because, you know, when, when you bring on a, you know, you bring on a salesperson, whether I hired him or my VP of sales hired him or whoever hired him, that's fine. You're always excited about the salesperson. Right? Salespeople always, always interview well. Right. They're salespeople and you can tell like fairly quick. I think, at least in, in my world, on who's going to be successful and who's not. The thing I always struggle with is when you're like, oh, I just like, I know this person's gonna be really good. And then we're like, Two months in, three months in and like sales aren't like quite there. I, I don't, I. First thing I, I say is I question the leader. Like, is his or her job is to div. Is to. They gotta have some skill or we shouldn't have hired them in the first place. But they got something that we hired that we all saw. We all have accountability in this. But why are they failing? Is it on the. Is it the close? Is it the. Like where are they broken in the process? And to me it's that sales leaders responsibility, right. To make sure that person gets the coaching and training they need to be able to close. Would you guys agree that, that that is the sales leaders job is to, you know, yes, hold them accountable but to also recognize what there's opportunities for them to coach them, to make them better. Would you agree?

[Aaron Gainer]

Yes. It sounds like you're very frustrated about this person. My strongest area for me. Right. So yes, I would agree. Sales coaching is a must to help guide and succeed people. I'm a big believer that sales people need aim. Need aim. You have to aim them. If you can't aim them, then they won't go. Right? And then they need somebody to follow up and call bullshit when. Bullshit and that's. And a lot of people are scared to do that with salespeople a lot of times in the organization. Right? Because they have this belief that I can't, I can't really challenge them for some reason. When you can.

[Chris]

Yeah. And so. Okay, so good. Now I'm not saying I am frustrated with like my Rhino team. Okay. I have invested in multiple companies. Am I frustrated? Yes. In general about this. And I'm legit asking you guys, like, at what, what's the breaking point? Like at what point in time do you say, well, okay, like they are getting the training that they need. They're still not closing. Like, okay, it's time to cut them. Right? Because there's like that fine line on are they really getting the coaching that they need? Are they really getting it like where they need it? Is it just some like, oh, hey, we do our weekly, you know, sales training or whatever the hell it is. Like there's gotta be some point where you're like, okay, you know, I don't, I don't know. I don't get, you know, deep into any one person except for the one thing that I'm looking at is I can look at numbers. You know, how many customers, you know, how many homes did you go sit in? How many did you actually Close. Okay, well, there's a metric that I can see what their success is, but, like, I don't know what their coaching looks like. Like, we're not monitoring. I'm not monitoring that. So I just don't know. I was kind of like, man, if I was leading a sales team and I had a salesperson fail, I would feel responsible for that. I would feel responsible like, shit. Like, they failed because of me. Even though some of them just were good interviewers. You know what I'm saying? But I can't shake the feeling of feeling like I let that person down because they failed.

[Chad Peterman]

One thing you'll hear a lot from Bluon users, they've stopped ordering the wrong part. Derek from FH Fear used to trust vendors for parts only to send his text out with the wrong one, costing time, money and customers customer trust. Since bringing on Bluon, their misses have dropped to zero. He even says that if a mistake happens now, it's usually because someone didn't run it through Bluon. It's become essential to their parts process. And here at Peterman Brothers, we're definitely seeing that impact too. Click on the link in the description and grab a quick demo. It will be worth it.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Sorry for the interruption. To the point listeners, have you heard of rilla? Are you using Rilla yet?

[Chris]

If not.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

If not, are you Farilla?

[Chris]

Shoot, I did.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

There. Rilla is the leading speech analytics software for the trades. It is on a mission to bring physical ride alongs to an end. You can coach your reps with virtual ride alongs now that are a hundred times better, faster, and much more efficient than the physical ones. All you got to do is use the Killa Rilla. That's R I L L A the line.

[Chad Peterman]

Yeah, I think Aaron made a great point though. You've got to aim them like. And I keep crossing over because we've recorded this, their second recording of the day on what I said on that one versus what I said on this one. But we were talking about. We were talking about giving somebody a scoreboard, like a salesperson scoreboard. Like that's the easiest scoreboard to create, right? It's closing percentage, average ticket, total revenue, whatever you monitor them by. But I think so often we just say, hey, yeah, just go like, sell some stuff. Like, see how much you can sell this month. And it's like, no, you need to constantly be monitoring that. Because in any good salesperson, they want to hit goals, want to hit number, or they should, hopefully. But I think you've got to aim them in the right direction. Like, this is what is good, this is what's excellent and this is what's unacceptable. And so like, you need to be somewhere above good and pursuing excellence in that you're setting records and doing all this stuff. And then, oh, by the way, if you're struggling, let me know what help you need and then I'm going to give it to you. I'm going to give you that help. But if you're consistently not there, I want to look at. And we break our stuff into what we call effort and execution. Like, so there's the effort KPIs. And so like, if you look at a technician effort, KPIs would be reviews, yard signs, driving score, different things that you could be the worst salesperson on the face of the planet. But if you do these, I'm willing to work with you. But if you are failing at all your execution and failing at all your effort, I kind of got a pretty good idea of who you are and where this is going to go. And so I think it's back to that, like not only pointing them towards the results, but pointing them towards the behaviors that they need to hit in order to. The result will take care of itself. That's an old nexstar adage, right? Provide great customer service. The result will take care of itself. And I think so often we have management that is so focused on the result or lack thereof that they forget about did well, did you give them all the fricking tools? Did you tell them what they need to do to be successful? And to me that's like, I don't ever want to fire somebody because I didn't give them the behaviors that will produce the result. And again, I think if someone's willing to do that piece of you can get them to where you need to get them. In most cases.

[Chris]

You said effort. And what was the other one?

[Chad Peterman]

Effort versus execution effort.

[Aaron Gainer]

All of our.

[Chad Peterman]

They have five effort KPIs that they need to hit and five execution. So yeah, the guy's average ticket may be a little bit low, but man, he's knocking it out of the park on all his effort like he wants it. We just got to work with him, maybe get him in some training, maybe do a ride along, whatever it is, figure out where he's missing because he's doing all the things to be successful.

[Aaron Gainer]

Since one last thing on this is like, you know, I've typically historically led our sales force here. Most salespeople want to be coached. Most salespeople want to be challenged. Most salespeople want to be inspired. Most salespeople want to know when they're not doing good. Right. And I think that's just from any management or person that's working with your sales force. Regardless of what size you are, you got to dive in and own that. Especially if you're, you know, smaller business that's still scaling or bigger. So I think, I think you have to be comfortable challenging your sales team on a regular basis and not be scared that a top salesperson is going to walk away because you challenge something that they're doing. Or salespeople are going to walk away because they do that. Because if so, then your sales team will take over your whole business and they'll start running it how they want to run it. And that gets really dangerous. So I don't know if that's where we were really going there, Chris, but I think it's, it's, it's fine to challenge them. I think you need to dive in. I think you should ask questions about what the coaching is on a regular basis. Who's doing what, what, what, what kind of meetings are they having? Because what I've seen when, when I've moved away from the sales is they just become number reporting meetings in a bitch in a vest, right? All the stuff that installed in due or the calls didn't do that. I always push it back onto them. The last meeting I had is that I don't want to hear the last meeting I did with our sales team last week. Actually. I don't want to hear about any external problems, only problems. I want to hear about the ones you have at your job. So right now you're going to write down three problems that you don't do right and one of them you're going to commit to this week and you're going to get up and you're going to stand up in front of the whole entire sales team and you're going to tell them the one thing you ain't doing in your job right now. And that's. And that's how we left the meeting. I said next week I'll be here. And I want to hear that you did it. So I think that that's, that's where you have to refocus. Salesforce always back to is onto them because external stuff is out of the control. I can't control immediately you have. I can't control. You can't control if something goes wrong with the install right or something's going on here. Sometimes it's what can you do right now. So I guess that goes back to what your point is in coaching. It's like if the manager. Is the manager willing to challenge the sales force properly on a regular basis? Yeah.

[Chris]

Well, actually, this was helpful. Both you guys just said. Actually just made me think of one thing. Like, I actually think this is my fault.

[Aaron Gainer]

It always is our fault, isn't it?

[Chad Peterman]

Hey, everyone's been. Everyone's been there before. A sales force that you let run rogue will create more havoc in your organization than you ever know.

[Chris]

Well, you know what it is? I think it's just that, you know, I mean, where my business is a little bit different than your guys is like, Rhino. I'll use Rhinos. Everything's inbound. Like, talk about a spoiled sales system. Everything is inbound. So it's different. But in some of the other businesses.

[Chad Peterman]

We'Re all inbound. There ain't many sales. There are many salespeople creating their own leads out there. I'll tell you that.

[Chris]

I understand.

[Aaron Gainer]

What do you think we're doing over here? What do you think we're doing?

[Chris]

Hold on a second.

[Aaron Gainer]

Listen, customer, we send somebody out. We set up a sales league.

[Chris]

You guys don't do outbounding. You guys don't do outbounding? Yes. I thought both of you guys did outbounding. Like, what?

[Aaron Gainer]

You know that like, 99 of our business is inbound. Call volume versus stuff. I'm not saying we don't.

[Chris]

Our service is different. So you both.

[Aaron Gainer]

Okay, okay, now you sound like one of those sales guys that doesn't want to take responsibility.

[Chad Peterman]

Chris, you're gonna have to man up on this.

[Aaron Gainer]

We're going to start with what I did with my sales team to Chris right now. Chris, what are the three things, man?

[Chris]

I am really letting everybody down here. Far listeners, I apologize. Jesus. Okay, so I've learned something today. We actually have the exact same lead source model. We're all focused on inbound. We're all also doing a little bit of outbound, but we're not talking about it. I don't know how to manage a sales leader anymore. Now, this is actually a really great point. Think about this. You know, the last year and a half or so, I felt like I got disconnected from some, like, where I used to be. Like, I wasn't always in every, you know, part of this business, but at least knew, like, I knew the majority of what was going on in any of the different, you know, departments. Well, once you get far away from it, you're not involved in the day to Day of these things. It's actually hard to manage it. It's like, hard to get in there and kind of help how you used to help and. And sales, you know, you. I did just kind of get stuck at just looking at numbers, right? Like, just looking at the numbers. I just didn't know how to go any deeper with any. It was like, how to train anybody because I wasn't paying close enough attention to the sales leaders who are managing the sales team to give the kind of feedback like you just said, Aaron. Like, I'm not going into those meetings and saying those things. I just started joining some of these meetings again, you know, because I haven't been a part of any of them in these other businesses. So, yeah, man, I think what you guys did was just call me out on my lack of accountability to my own sales leader. So. So what I hear you saying is, hey, Chris, the problem is you.

[Chad Peterman]

I mean, I think it's. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I think it's important to understand. Understand, though, too, is how do we judge a sales leader? Results. Results.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Chad Peterman]

Yeah. So if. What if we looked at it as, hey, sales leader, half of your judgment will be on the results, but the other half, or maybe 75%, is going to be judged on how well your team is performing, the behaviors that we know that will lead to success. And are we, as a leader okay with a sales leader looking at us, showing us the data and being like, hey, our sales team is doing all the behaviors that you said would lead to success, and it's not leading to success? Well, then I think we need to regroup and figure out, do we have the right behaviors? Like, are they doing the right things? Are they having the right conversations? Are they following up appropriately? Are they, you know, how do they bring this deal to a close? But we don't ever judge sales leaders or service line managers. It's all judged on, did you hit the budget number or did you not? I mean, we just had this conversation the other day.

[Aaron Gainer]

We were like.

[Chad Peterman]

Like, part of our bonus plan for our managers should be, how did they fare on the quarterly survey? Like, do your people like you? Do they want to work here? What's your retention rate? All of these things that I think are sometimes lost when we're, as leaders just trying to drive growth and hit new numbers and beat budgets and all of this stuff that it all comes back to the behaviors. I mean, Aaron talked about it earlier. Part of his success that no one would attribute to anything is the fact that he's told himself the same thing for 10 years every single morning. Well, that's a behavior that, hey Aaron, you're really off your game. What behaviors aren't you doing? Well, shit, I haven't told myself. I haven't done my affirmation in two weeks. Well, why don't you get back to that? And then to me, stuff starts to spiral into, okay, now I'm in the right frame of mind now I've got all of this stuff. Like I think that's where we get lost sometimes in these businesses and growth and all of this stuff is we lose track of the little stuff that we do. Like I will tell you first and foremost, the one thing that I believe in wholeheartedly is when we do leadership training consistently, we do well. Well last year we got away from that because we were struggling and it's like, I don't know, just go drive results, sell, sell more stuff, do all of this stuff. And like last November I made a commitment and I said, here's the deal, team. I've gotten away from this. Every Tuesday morning at 8:30 in the morning, we're going to do leadership training for 30 minutes and be short and sweet. But anybody who leads people, we're going to do leadership training every single week. We haven't missed a week since the beginning of November. And wouldn't you know, things are looking up around here. Like, yeah, that's not the only reason. But like what are the reasons that we can find that will put people in the right frame of mind to do good work?

[Aaron Gainer]

One thing I'll say on this too is great, great stuff there, Chad, by the way. But Chris, I think one thing that we lose connection on here too sometimes is with, with our managers or salesforce, we don't ride along with them. We, when I say that it's like we don't do ride alongs with our managers like we expect them to do ride along sometimes with the text. So like one of the things I've tried to do now and if people don't know my goal has been this year more is to show them the way, not tell them the way. So I'll go to the meeting, I'll say let me run the meeting for you. This is, this is how I think this meeting should be ran. This is how we've been successful doing it. Let me show you how to do it. Let me show you. Last week I said let me show you how to do a call close, get here. And I wrote the scripts out, I gave them out. I Met them, I read them all. We walked through them all, and I said, now I'm going to show you how to do a call to close. And we showed them how to do it right and start showing instead of people, instead of telling them. And I think that that's a commitment. I've tried to make more this year. I go to the meeting, I show them how to run the meeting meeting. I show them how to do the things that I do know when I talk about what the things I don't know about this business. There are things I don't know about the business. I've never ran $100 million business before, but I do know how to run a sales team, and I do know how to run a service meeting, and I do know how to run a level 10 meeting for. For operations. Right. I do know how to do those things, and those are the things I need to show up and show the way instead of telling the way. Right. And I think that's important as a business. And if you don't know, then you better go get somebody that does know, like a coach or mentor that start doing that. Like we all have still today, right? Is people that we lean to. Whether it's you guys for stuff on business, stuff that I'm unaware of, whether it's outside of peers that we know that are bigger, have bigger business experience, but there's certain things you can show the way.

[Chad Peterman]

Yeah, it's huge.

[Chris]

Yeah. Dude, that's so good. I mean, first off, I want to just say we're already an hour into this thing, which sucks because I had like, some other stuff I wanted to go over, but I'm not going to. But one thing that this whole conversation just made me think about was everything that you just said. Aaron. I'm. I know how to do it. I know how to do all this stuff. And I. And that's how I like, whenever I led sales team, sales team, I just would sit. I would be like, lead by example. I'll just show you how I do it. And I. And I was a big fan of those things. But then I'm not leading a sales team anymore. So you kind of like, get away from it. Like, I got away from it, and now I'm focused on different things. So really what's kind of happening is I'm almost like, you know, this is like a product of my own environment. Like, I'm. I kind of. I'm so removed that it's like hard to re. Engage back into the simple things that actually work. Like hey, just go back in and show them. Like, I just did a sales training and I was like, oh. Like, I just basically did a whole mock sales training with. With our Rhino team on how you have to work with your distributors. Right. Because you. How you talk to distributors different than how you talk to a contractor. I just did it. I just, like, did a mock run through the whole thing, and then they were like, oh, this is how this makes sense. I'm like, sweet. I should probably do more of that. Like, but I haven't done that in, like, years. I haven't done that. And I think that's how a lot of the salespeople learn too. Like, you sit and watch and you can learn, but then there has to be this layer of accountability. And I think where I'm still kind of falling short is I don't think I'm supporting the sales leader enough.

[Aaron Gainer]

Well, I think what happens to us too, this is my experience. And I know time wise here is like, what I've done in the past is I'll jump back past the sales leader all the way down. Instead of trying to ride with the sales leaders and try to coach them is I'll go to the workforce, and that's something I've tried to improve. I still go to the workforce because I can move them, because I can relate to them. I've done in home sales, I know what they go through. I've done those calls, right? So I can relate to them. So I can do that. And so I go to them. But I think I need to just be able to ride with that. Those sales leaders. And some people are trade line managers that aren't sales leaders and they need coach to be a sales leader. But they're running a line. But they're naturally not a sales leader. They're an operator. There's a difference between somebody that can operate in sales lead. Right. So. But yeah, I mean. And look, Chris, we all done it. I've did it too. I did it last year. That's why I got so frustrated with myself. I've done it earlier this year, and this year I've started committed to getting back and trying to show people away instead of tell them the way.

[Chris]

Well, I think my biggest takeaway from this particular episode is effort versus execution.

[Aaron Gainer]

Yes.

[Chris]

Number one, I actually really, really love those two.

[Aaron Gainer]

Metrics.

[Chris]

Yeah, metrics. And then just kind of getting back in and showing the way, like, you know, and these are two things I am 100% in control of doing. So, like, thank you guys for the therapy. Session today and the coaching session. See, listeners, I need coaching, too. Clearly. I need to re. Engage some coaching on an ongoing basis. I really do. I'm so pissed. I have so many more questions I wanted to ask you guys that I didn't get to. But for an hour. And so I appreciate you guys coming out. We gotta do more of this. Like, I know I say it every time we do it, but these are always. These are always fun. Just kind of talk through our. Our stuff. And by the way, like, these episodes actually always do. Always do pretty well, too, which is. Which is great. So I don't know why we don't do it. More of it. The. This is the easiest stuff to do. You don't have to worry about, like, trying. Trying to schedule everything with 500 different people, which, by the way.

[Aaron Gainer]

Oh, yeah, well, you guys scheduled me like 20 minutes before I got you.

[Chris]

Appreciate you making that happen. At least you're on the same time zone as Chad. Yeah, well, boys, I appreciate you coming. Coming on here and sharing with the listeners and I mean, Chad's always on here anyway. But ag, thanks for hopping on last minute and sharing everything. And we should do more of these. You guys want to. Guys want to do some more of this type?

[Aaron Gainer]

Yeah, I enjoy it. I learned. I wrote down a couple of thoughts from this today, too, so appreciate it, man. It's always good.

[Chris]

I hope the next one I can give you guys some coaching. Some coaching lessons.

[Chad Peterman]

That's right. You go take care of Billy, Chris. I don't know what his name is, but he's just gonna be Billy. All right, you go. You go figure that out.

[Chris]

I'm gonna give you an update on Billy at home. Okay? All right, listeners. Well, hopefully you enjoyed that. I know I talked a lot the first half. These guys have actually brought some good heat in, and I was able to embarrass myself a little bit at the end. So I appreciate you guys calling me out on this. That was my payback for calling Aaron old. I apologize. I apologize, boys. I appreciate you guys. And to our listeners, you don't got to do everything, but you got to do something. No. Zero days.