Why Exterior Illumination Might Be the Most Overlooked Goldmine in Home Services

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: To The Point – Home Services Podcast
Episode: Why Exterior Illumination Might Be the Most Overlooked Goldmine in Home Services
Host: Chris (RYNO Strategic Solutions)
Guest: Ryan Lee (Majestic Outdoor Lighting, Landscape Lighting Secrets, Light It Up Expo)
Date: February 17, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Chris sits down with lighting industry expert Ryan Lee to unpack why exterior illumination—encompassing landscape, holiday, and permanent architectural lighting—is an untapped goldmine for home services companies. Going beyond installation tips, they dig into the economics, marketing approaches, upsell opportunities, and integration strategies that owners in HVAC, plumbing, roofing, and electrical spaces can leverage by adding lighting as a service line. Ryan's personal story, sales psychology, and lively banter with Chris keep the episode energetic and loaded with actionable ideas.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins and Perceptions of Exterior Illumination

[08:54–14:22]

• Landscape lighting is misunderstood: Most consumers and service pros equate it with ordinary landscaping, overlooking the creativity and business opportunity.
• Ryan Lee describes his journey: After feeling limited in a marketing job, Ryan co-founded Majestic Outdoor Lighting, leveraging the high-ticket nature of lighting projects versus low-return window cleaning.
  • Notable Quote:

    "People, when they see or hear landscape lighting, they think landscaping. I’m even more nerdy than that. It’s just lighting, outdoor lighting." – Ryan Lee (09:00)

• Adoption of exterior lighting is still low, even in affluent neighborhoods, making it a prime area for growth.

2. Business Breakdown: What Falls Under Outdoor Lighting?

[14:22–17:23]

• Three sectors make up “exterior illumination”:
  • Landscape Lighting: In-ground and specialty lighting for trees, architectural features, outdoor kitchens, pools, etc.
  • Holiday Lighting: Seasonal displays, including professional installation and removal, with higher-end décor.
  • Permanent Lighting: Programmable, year-round roofline or façade lighting (e.g., “jellyfish lights”) that blend into the structure, now rapidly gaining traction.
• Smart controls and color-changing features boost customer experience and upsell value.

3. The Economics: Cost, Margins, and Lifetime Value

[19:45–24:44]

• Project Economics:
  • Average landscape lighting ticket: $10,000–$12,000; luxury markets exceed $20,000.
  • Gross margins: ~65%; Net margins: 20–30%.
  • Holiday and permanent lighting tickets can be similarly high.
• Lifetime Value:

  "Once I realized … the average lifetime value isn’t $10,000, it’s actually $30,000, $40,000, $50,000." – Ryan Lee (23:15)

• A single client often leads to multiple projects—front/backyard, secondary homes, and referrals—making the customer pool increasingly valuable.

4. Recurring Revenue via “Protection Plans”

[27:15–29:22]

• Lighting companies are selling maintenance contracts, recently rebranded as "protection plans."
  • Not primarily to drive profit, but to maintain client relationships, generate referrals, and keep their brand top-of-mind in the neighborhood.
  • The value of being “on location” regularly often outweighs the direct profit from maintenance alone.

5. Adding Lighting to Existing Home Services Businesses

[33:10–41:07]

• Entry Points:
  • Established businesses (especially in landscaping, electrical, roofing) can easily cross-sell lighting to their customer base; even sending one email or text can unlock tens of thousands in new business.
    • Memorable Quote:

      "Send an email, a text, a phone call, a voicemail bomb to all your clients… you’re literally a couple of conversations away from bringing in $30K–$40K a month. That’s three or four jobs." – Ryan Lee (34:00)

  • Standalone startups can succeed, but need a dedicated “champion” on staff—cannot be a low-commitment side offering.
• Challenges for HVAC/Plumbing Crossover:
  • While logical, few HVAC or plumbing companies have successfully bolted on lighting; it requires dedicated training and passion, not just technical skills.

6. Sales Strategy and Psychology: Price Marination

[45:28–56:46]

• Ryan’s Proven Sales Process:
  • Lead with a “price marinade”—anchor high, allow the customer to process sticker shock, then present options, including a lower price to induce “sticker relief.”
  • Use triple-option pricing with clearly differentiated good/better/best tiers.
  • The homeowner is asked, “How much were you thinking it was going to be?” to get them to self-disclose budget without asking directly.
    • Quote with Example

      “We give them the sticker shock, allow them to have the seizure... then we go in with a lower price later on... People get the exact opposite of sticker shock, which we call sticker relief.” – Ryan Lee (49:03)

  • Take control: Direct the process (“Do I knock or just come in?”) and embody the role of trusted advisor, not just salesperson.

7. Marketing: Traditional, Digital, and Referral Partnerships

[58:07–60:16]

• Traditional digital tactics: Google Ads, social, email, and direct mail can work but require budget and brand polish.
• Highest ROI is from strategic referral partnerships:
  • Key Partners: Architects, landscape architects, pool builders, home automation pros, interior designers.
  • These partners already have client trust and can open doors to high-ticket projects.
  • Quote:

    "My top clients get these big jobs—$50K, $100K—from referral partners. Interior designers control everything." – Ryan Lee (58:54)

8. Industry Opportunity & Light It Up Expo

[61:16–65:26]

• Less than 5% of homes that could benefit from professional exterior lighting have it.
• Light It Up Expo convenes training, vendors, and business resources for those looking to enter or scale lighting service lines—including hands-on workshops and cross-industry networking.
• Ryan’s mission: Modernize and mainstream the lighting industry for home services businesses and entrepreneurs.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Power of Lighting:
  • "We actually make people feel awesome... It’s not HVAC or roofing—they have to have it. Lighting is something they want."
    – Ryan Lee [30:05]
• How to Think About Upsell/Lifetime Value:
  • "All of a sudden, the average value goes up... I thought it wasn't a residual business, but it is."
    – Ryan Lee [24:15]
• Direct Advice to Pros:
  • "If you’re gonna do it, you can’t just be like, ‘hey, electricians, see if they want landscape lighting.’ No—you need a champion, or it’ll become a nuisance."
    – Ryan Lee [40:17]
• On Industry Maturity:
  • "We're like the ugly girl in middle school that's about to get hot... Lighting is where it's at."
    – Ryan Lee [38:31]

---

Key Segments & Timestamps

• [02:52] Introduction to Ryan Lee’s background and transition from marketing to lighting entrepreneur.
• [14:22] Explanation of exterior illumination, holiday, permanent and landscape lighting.
• [19:45] Deep dive into project economics—average ticket, gross/net margins, and big picture on LTV.
• [24:44] The power of customer lifetime value in lighting and the importance of re-engagement.
• [27:15] How recurring revenue (via "protection plans") works in lighting businesses.
• [33:10] Methods for existing home service businesses to bolt on lighting; startup tips and market size.
• [45:28] The "price marinade" sales tactic (with live roleplay example).
• [58:07] Marketing best practices, traditional vs. referral partner strategies.
• [61:16] The Light It Up Expo and Ryan’s mission for the lighting industry.

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Landscape lighting businesses can yield high average tickets, excellent profit margins, and substantial LTV through repeat business and referrals.
• Maintenance/protection plans shouldn’t just be about recurring revenue, but about customer retention and referral generation.
• Adding (or launching) lighting as a vertical requires real commitment and a leader—don’t treat it as an afterthought.
• Successful marketing is omnichannel, but biggest wins come from nurturing partnerships with architects, builders, and designers.
• Clear, confident, and educational sales processes—anchoring high and offering options—close more high-ticket jobs.
• The industry is still in the early-innings of adoption—forward-thinking home service companies have significant room to grow through lighting.

---

Closing & Resources

• Connect with Ryan Lee:
  • Instagram: @LandscapeLightingSecrets
  • Facebook: Ryan Lee
  • Podcast: Lighting for Profits
  • Email: [e-mail]
• Learn More about Light It Up Expo:
  • Event for training, networking, and cross-industry learning in the lighting business.
  • Growing rapidly, with a focus on bringing lighting to the home services mainstream.

---

If you’re an HVAC, plumbing, electrical, roofing, or landscape pro looking to differentiate, add revenue, and build customer loyalty, exterior illumination may be your most overlooked goldmine.

"You don’t got to do everything, but you got to do something. No zero days." – Chris (67:44)

---

Transcript

[Ryan Lee]

This is to the Point a Rhino experience voted one of the top home services, marketing and operations podcasts. Cutting through the.

[Chris]

And getting to the point. Hey, what's up to the Point, listeners, it's your boy, Chris. I do not have my co host on this podcast today, and I am not even all that sad about it because now we might actually be able to get through this without his interruptions. Okay, okay, okay. I'm a little bit sad. I always like having Chad on here because he's got such a good perspective. He asked questions from. You know, he usually has some pretty thoughtful questions, too, that I'm. I'm always like, damn, that was a good question to ask. Why didn't I think of it? But we're gonna have to just, you know, we're gonna have to manage with Adam today, Ryan. We're gonna try power through this together, you know, and we'll support one another along the way.

[Ryan Lee]

We got this. We got this.

[Chris]

So. So. But I. What I'm not gonna do is, is, is let the listeners down because, you know, last year for the majority of the year, I kicked off every podcast with dad jokes, as. Everybody loves a good dad joke, Ryan, And I'm no different. I like them too. But we've moved on from that. We don't do that anymore. So this year I do something slightly different. And it's like, you've heard some of these metaphors or idioms, whatever people call them. Like, it's, you know, we did. The first one was rising tide raises all ships. Cut to the chase. Like, sayings like that that you've heard, and you're always like, where the hell did I even come from? Throw the baby out with the bath water. And so I thought I could. This is like the nerd side of me. Like, I genuinely wonder sometimes, like, where the heck did I even come from? You know, like the. Throw the baby out with the bath water is the one that got me thinking about it years ago. I'm like, somebody explained to me what in the heck that means.

[Ryan Lee]

I still don't know what that means.

[Chris]

Well, it's an old school term where they used to. You have to put the. You know, the tub used to be. Have to be heated up, like, with a fire. And they'd heat up the water and, you know, you'd have to. You put your baby in this. That that's how they heated up the water in the tub. This is old, old, old school. And then, you know, now it's dirty water, so you got to pick that little Portable tub up and throw the water out, but you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So it was like some old school term on like the waters, the water's dirty. I can't remember what the heck. Exactly what it is. We should, we should add that one to the list on here. That's a, that's an old school. I mean, I should have. Because it's the first one that got me thinking about doing this thing in the first place. But we've done a few of them that have been good and I have another one today and I, and I'm, I, I think this is going to be, I think this is gonna be one that you're familiar with, Ryan. But first, what I do, I'll go and give a quick introduction to our listeners too. I got Ryan Lee on here. Who is the. You spent what, almost two decades, I guess maybe it was 2008 to 2019. Yeah.

[Ryan Lee]

2007 to 2019. Had my lighting business and still in the industry. So, yeah, going on what, 18, 19 years.

[Chris]

Majestic outdoor Lighting. Right. Majestic Outdoor Lighting was that company doing business coaching and the landscape. Landscape lighting secrets, which you can see on your, on your background. And man, you got the lighted up Expo. This is coming up on year two, two of the event.

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah, Just the second year coming up in a few weeks, depending on when you're listening to this.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's right before. It's before it. So, you know, but I just, you know, for those who are listening right now, this is not a whole episode around landscape lighting or outdoor lighting or any of that type of stuff too. It's more about the business of it because Ryan's done a lot of coaching with companies along the way and helped them generate millions of dollars. Millions of dollars. And so I'm intrigued, always intrigued to hear somebody who kind of comes from outside the majority of our listener base, which is in that home services, H VAC Pl, electrical space and just kind of hear what you've done. So I'm excited to kind of tap into that. I have some, I told you ahead of time, I have some genuine curiosity just around the business as a whole. One of my really, really good friends, one of my really close friends, Chris Hollister, Dexter, that's what we like to call him. Yes. After the show. Dexter has a landscape company, but it's like hardscapes, you know, and stuff like that. And he always asked me for business advice. I'm like, how can I scale this company? What else can I be doing. And I'm like, well, this is, you know, if I'm him, this is something that he should lean into. You're already there. You're already doing these things. This seems like a natural thing to add to it. I think maybe he is doing a variation of it, but not some of the skill that you've experienced. So, like, I'm going to kind of think, you know, think I kind of thought about this, going through that path as if I was coaching him. Um, but before we get there, I got to go over this first one. Okay, so this one is. And what I like to do, Ryan, is share with you what. What it's going to be. And then I want to go clear back to the beginning, the origination of this thing. Okay. And that's where it gets exciting. If you're a history buff like I am, I enjoy the historical part of this. Okay. So it's a learning lesson for all of our listeners. And by the way, I actually. To the podcast producer in the room, I actually finally got somebody who reached out to me who liked the idioms part of this thing. Nobody's done it. Like, usually. I got a lot of people reaching out to me, Ryan, about the dad.

[Ryan Lee]

Jokes, not so much.

[Chris]

On this one. I had one person finally reach out. Now, I've only done a couple of them. So we got some. We got some. We got some. Some work to do here. But this one this week is going to be. And you've heard this Sink or swim. We've heard that before, right, Ryan? Yep, yep. I'm sure our listeners have heard the term sink or swim. Well, so this phrase dates back to the 14th century, a long time ago. It was in English usage, but it was literal. Roots go back, actually, even further than that. But, like, the first documented piece of this came from the 14th century, back in the medieval times, which meant. And this is kind of. When you want to. You hear the origination of this, you'll be like, how did this make any damn sense? It's trial by water. Are you intrigued? Trial by water. So in medieval Europe, there was a legal practice. Legal, Ryan.

[Ryan Lee]

Legal.

[Chris]

Legal practice called trial by ordeal. And one of one method was ordeal by water. So listen to this dumb idea on how this came about. The accused was thrown into the water. If they sank, they were considered innocent. The water accepted them. I use air quotes.

[Ryan Lee]

If they floated, sounds like you're guilty.

[Chris]

Hang on a second. If they floated, they were considered guilty. I use. And then the water rejected them. I use air quotes. I don't know that I quite understand this. Certainly the ob. The. The logic is flawed. To me it seems that way. But this literal sink or swim, life or death test influenced the phrase's tone of forced survival. Listen, you can teach him everything. They got to do something with it and it's sink or swim, right? I actually think that that was interesting because it made no sense to me. Like, who thought that up in the 14th century? That's the best you came up with?

[Ryan Lee]

If you're innocent, you die?

[Chris]

Is that what happens if you're okay, if you're innocent? Okay, if you sink, you're innocent. Good for you. I think I'd rather be guilty in this instance because I floated and I survived. Like, I don't know that. Like, it seems like it's a lose, lose situation to me anyway. So I don't know that actually.

[Ryan Lee]

I think maybe, yeah, there's like another element that didn't make it into the book. It's like the sink, float or swim. The guy who was guilty, innocent, whatever. The guy who figured out how to swim just swam to like another part of the island and, and started a new life, I guess.

[Chris]

I mean, who knows? I knows, but to me, I'm thinking the same thing anyway. To me it was like a bit of a letdown because it didn't make sense to me. I get, I get using the term sink or swim makes sense to me, but the origination of it, I was pretty silly. Okay, well, now we are all smarter. Okay. I'm not sure how much smarter, but now we all know something you probably didn't know. We know when you woke up today, so you're welcome. Okay, Ryan, you ready to get into this, buddy?

[Ryan Lee]

I'm ready.

[Chris]

I'm excited. Okay. All right, well, let's, let's do this. I kind of shared a little bit of your background and let's kind of look at the 30,000 foot view, view of, of Ryan Lee's background here and just kind of share with our listeners. So that way when I ask these questions, they kind of understand where you're pulling from. I talked about your majestic outdoor lighting business from 07 through 19, and then you exited from that and then you went into the, into the coaching side of things and you created a, you know, an industry event and like, so you're doing all the things. But like, maybe let's just kind of talk a little bit about your, about your. Come up into that and then I'll lead into my. My first question.

[Ryan Lee]

Love it. Well, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

[Chris]

My pleasure.

[Ryan Lee]

I love sharing my story, I love sharing my passion because I am super nerdy and super passionate about lighting. And people, when they see or hear landscape lighting, they don't. They think landscaping. So they're like, oh yeah, I got it. I got a brother in law that does landscaping. I'm like, no, but that's not it. I'm even more nerdy than that. Like, it's just lighting, outdoor lighting. Right. So I would. I actually goes back when I was going to school, I wanted to be the first one in my family to get a degree. This was back in the early 2000s, right? And it wasn't because I thought an education was better than not having. I just, I just thought I want to be the first one. I want Ed Milette talks about the one. Like, I wanted to be the one to change my family legacy, right?

[Chris]

Yep.

[Ryan Lee]

So I go get a marketing degree, I get an MBA, I get a job that pays me $40,000 a year doing marketing. I'm like, what the freaking hell? Like, I wanted to change my family's legacy and I'm making 40 grand a year. Right. And so I decide to move to Texas. My brother and I, we're going to do this window cleaning empire. Okay. He's already living down there. I grew up in Utah, he was down there. I literally moved my wife down there. We have our brand new daughter, she's only six months old. We go down to Texas to buy a house. We bought a house. Literally on our trip to find a house, we bought a house. We're in his hot tub celebrating. And every good story starts with a hot tub. We know this, right? And so we're in the hot tub celebrating, goes, dude, when you get down here, it's gonna be so awesome. When you get down here. Let's talk about lighting. Let's talk about landscape lighting. I just did these two jobs for clients and there were $4,000 each. And I was like, what? Like someone spent $4,000 to put lights on their house? Like, that's crazy. Like, what does that mean? He's like, yeah, they like the house, the trees. I'm like, okay, whatever. So I start going and I ask him more questions. I go, wait a minute. I'd much rather sell a four thousand dollar landscape lighting job than a $250 window cleaning job. Like, how do we go into this? And literally that night after we got out of the hot tub, we went and bought the Domain Majestic Outdoor Lighting. So we literally started this, this company in a hot Tub. Not knowing anything about landscape lighting or holiday lighting or permanent lighting or anything like that. So that's how I got into the industry.

[Chris]

Where'd you. And you went to Utah? You went to Utah?

[Ryan Lee]

Utah State.

[Chris]

Okay, that's right up in Logan. I thought I saw that. Okay, so a couple dudes in the hot tub. You guys come up with the. Come up with the. Come up with a business and you buy a domain and now you're kind of off to the races. Now you think $4,000, where my business prem goes to is like, what's the actual, you know, profitability of a $4,000 job? But we're going to get into that because I want to understand.

[Ryan Lee]

I didn't care at the time. Our, our napkin math was like, okay, if we do three jobs a week, you know, that's 12 grand. Yeah. You multiply that out by a year, that's around 600 grand. We'll probably spend a couple hundred grand in materials and we'll each split 400. That's 200 grand. That's a hell of a lot more than 40.

[Chris]

That's a lot more than 40.

[Ryan Lee]

That was my math at the time.

[Chris]

Yeah, sure. But actually that sounds the math I would have done too well. So maybe let's do this. Because you, you mentioned it, you know, how you think, you know, landscape lighting and people think landscaper and, and, and. Sorry for the interruption, listeners. I want to give a quick shout out to Rhino X 2026 keynote sponsor, Pro Book AI. It's ProBook AI. You can check them out in the link below. ProBook AI finds the money you're losing without you having to do anything. It scans your books to catch missed invoices, underbuild jobs, leaks, all kinds of stuff. So let it do the hard work for you on finding out where you're leaking money. Thanks again to our keynote sponsor, Rhino X 2026 Pro Book. Attention to the point, listeners. Branding has never been more important. Is your brand in serious need of an upgrade? Do you have a new company and need a new brand but don't want to wait six months or pay a ridiculous amount to get it done? If your brand looks like everyone else's, well, guess what? You are everyone else. But prolific. They build brands that dominate from the first Google search to the driveway. Prolific brand design can help you be more of you because you are the unique difference that sets you apart from all your competitors. So let's be real for a second. Your brand is either winning you customers or costing you money. Just ask Some of our clients, like Ken Goodrich, Ishmael Valdez, my boy Chad Peterman, and even myself, Olific Brand Design is the creative pros behind some of the best home services, logos, truck wraps, websites, and now email marketing campaigns. Wouldn't you love it if your email marketing open rates were 30, 40, 50%? And don't go into the spam folder. Hell, that's how we roll at Prolific. So check them out@privific brand design.com and ask for the to the point promo. Prolific Brand Design. Be more of you. Be prolific. I think that's probably the majority, right, because they just hear that and that's all they think about. But there's so much more to it. Now, as a consumer who has purchased lighting on my home, you know, and not only the outdoor lighting, like the landscape lighting, but also the roof line lighting, the jellyfish lights, that stuff, you know, because I was the guy hanging up Christmas lights along the roof lines, and I thought, I don't want to do that anymore. And my roof line is very long, so I invested in that and I love it. But maybe just explain to. To the listeners what exactly is under the outdoor lighting, you know, umbrella? Like, let's just, let's start there. And then I'll go to question number two.

[Ryan Lee]

Cool. Yeah, No, I appreciate it. So, yeah, I wear a landscape lighting shirt on the plane, you know, and people are like, oh, yeah, they just, they think they, they read landscaping. But in the landscape lighting umbrella, or let's call it exterior illumination, if you've seen the show, which, if you haven't seen the show, we probably can't be friends. But Christmas vacation, of course, there's a scene where he's like, dad, you taught me everything I know about exterior illumination.

[Chris]

That's right.

[Ryan Lee]

It was like my goal in life. And my kids now say that to me. And I'm like, I think I won. I think I won, you know, so it's landscape lighting, which is essentially lighting in the ground up, lighting trees down, lighting in trees, creating a moonlight. We do lighting, like to uplight the front of your home. Really cool. Specialty lighting in outdoor living areas, in outdoor kitchens, around pools. Like, really just sexy sexy. Like better than resort lighting. And then there's holiday lighting, traditional holiday lighting where you talked about where you hang those up and take them down every year. And then if you go next level, you're doing like, wreaths and garland and really decorating it. Maybe you got nutcrackers by your front door or whatever. And then there's now the new Permanent lighting that's really new in the last three to five years. And that's where you, you can leave it up year round. It changes for 4th of July and for Valentine's Day. Game day wins. And of course, Christmas lighting and Halloween and those types of things.

[Chris]

I was just, while you were talking, I was just looking up. I have on my phone, you know, an app full of apps, lighting apps from all the different, the various things that I've got. Like, I've got a whole slew of them in here. That's awesome because the jellyfish lights are the ones that were right underneath the soffit right of the house and they match right in, so you can't tell they're there. And so if you have at HOA and you don't tell them, they're probably. They blend in pretty damn good.

[Ryan Lee]

That's right.

[Chris]

I'm not.

[Ryan Lee]

The reason you'll get in trouble is if you leave them on and they're, they're flashing different colors and it feels like a strip club. Like your neighbor's probably going to complain. Right. But if it's just changing colors for holidays and, and doing its thing for Christmas, people don't usually care.

[Chris]

No, I actually have some down lighting that come from mine that stay on and, and I'm pretty good. But my house is tucked back in, so I live in a country club with very strict HOA rules. But because I'm in the very, very, very back, ain't nobody seen my house except for me.

[Ryan Lee]

No one knows.

[Chris]

Unless you're listening to this podcast, which I'm sure they probably are just to catch me. But I have a few lights. Yeah, I like that. I am done. But I have like, I had all my lighting installed last year and it was all the landscape lighting where I can now control all of it from my app, every color of it from my app. And so, you know, seasonally, I have it all saved, right. For, you know, Thanksgiving, for Halloween, for Christmas, and then just a regular, you know, the regular lighting that's kind of soft lighting, which is what I like. And, but I can control each light individually, so it's, it, it's, it makes it to where I can, you know, have a little bit of fun with it too. It's not just normal lighting, you know, during the holiday season.

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So what, what's like, typical? What's. Well, it sounds like you got upset dogs right now. So if our listeners hear that those are Ryan's upset dogs.

[Ryan Lee]

Get the dogs.

[Chris]

This is when you go on mute and you yell at somebody. I was literally, seriously, get the dogs. I was in a meeting, okay? This is real life that's happening. I was in a meeting last week, I think it was last week or the week before with the CEO of Angie, Jeff Kip, and at the house and my youngest daughter walks in. I'm not now, not normally at the house. My youngest daughter walks in and she's like peeking around the corner, like into the conversation, you know, and she's, you know, she's 11. And I'm like. And it's like now kind of annoying me because she's just sitting there staring. Now, to be fair, I am like sitting in the, like the main area, the main kitchen area. But I was like, I'm like, hang on one second. I'm like, fallon, can you get out of here? I'm having a meeting. And he just starts laughing. He's like, well, my five year old's bound to come in here too. It's like, yeah, this is just real life. But the.

[Ryan Lee]

Unfortunately, that's what it is. We got dogs barking, kids coming in and out. Like, maybe I should get an office, but I don't know. It's fun. Get home.

[Chris]

No, it's all good, man. It doesn't bother me one bit. But. Okay, so let me hop back in this real quick. I want to understand a little bit more about that. I know what I paid for those things and to me, I gladly paid for them because it works, it looks good. I got some customization to it if I wanted to sell my home at some point in time. Does it help with upsell? The reason I say yeah is it looks so dang good. Like the lighting looks so good at night when you pull up, like, you're like, this thing looks amazing. You can make a house look so freaking good with right lighting on it. And then the, the, the lighting that I did, the jellyfish lighting along it, I think I spent like 10 grand on mine. Like it was. I did a lot. And to me, also worth it because it's now been three years in a row. I've not had to get up there and do that or pay somebody and do it. So. But, but help me understand, like, in regards to like the economics of this thing. Like, what is, what's a typical for. For this type of a company? What's like a typical profit margin for a company? Like, do you guys have a margin that you run to like a 20 or 30 or something like that? I don't know if there's an average in there. Somewhere.

[Ryan Lee]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's honestly so an average ticket for landscape lighting. And so you got the three pillars, landscape, holiday, and permanent. I'm like, I bleed landscape lighting. That's my favorite of all three. We help educate on the others and introduce manufacturers and all that stuff. But landscape lighting is my favorite. And partly because it's the hardest to get into. There's some perceived barriers of entry there. People aren't as good at marketing. So it's like, now you have an advantage. It's less commoditized. There's a design element. Right. You can't do much design element. Just measuring 150ft across your house, like, is. It's like, well, if some guy is half the price, why. Why not just go with him? Right. And so I like landscape lighting the most, so I'll share some of those numbers. The average ticket for landscape lighting is between 10 and $12,000. Now, you could do a small job and do 4,000. Right. I've got. I've got a client that's working literally on a $1.5 million landscape lighting project right now. This is residential, but he's in West Palm Beach. You know, there's a lot of billionaires there. Yeah. So in Utah, you know, it's. That's not the same. I think my client here, his average ticket is like 18 to $20,000. So there are different markets and variables and stuff like that. In terms of profit margin, you're usually looking at like 65% gross and 20. I'd say 20 to 30% net. Because I've got clients that are doing 32% right now. And then I've got others that are down at 12. You know what I mean?

[Chris]

Yep.

[Ryan Lee]

Some of it just. They're bad at running a business and don't know their numbers. And then others are like, screw it, man. I'm in growth mode. Like, I. They're not there to brag about their net right now. They're there to brag about how big they're building their business.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah. So we. When we built. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's actually really interesting because I'm like, genuinely curious because that's how my business brain works is. You know, we take the stairs up, stair step approach to business at Rhino, and when Anna and I were building it and it was, you know, one year, you. You spend, like, we just spend to scale, you know, whether it be making sure you're. You're staffed appropriately, if it's marketing, if it's a mixture of all the things, but you're spending that way. You, the next, you know, that's, that's your stair step up. And then it's, you know, you say flat that next year you minimize your spend. You let all the things you just did take place in that year. You might have some things that you spend on, depending on what comes up, but you keep doing this. So it was like grow. And then when you do this, you know, your profitability starts to raise back up. So, you know, then the year you, you're down, then the next year you're up. But it was the plan, it was the long term plan of scaling the businesses. We were completely okay with it. I didn't care about the, the next two, three, four years, you know, net profit because I wasn't, I was trying to build the company. I'll worry about it when I hit 5 and 6 and 7. And that worked for us, right, until you get to a spot where you can start to manage it differently. But that was a good initial approach for us.

[Ryan Lee]

I agree. I see a lot of people struggle with this because you might listen on a podcast, oh, I'm supposed to be at this, I'm supposed to be at that. Well, it's one thing if you're a well established brand and people know who you are, well, naturally you're gonna have to, you don't have to spend as much on marketing, you know. And so one of the things I teach on is really the lifetime value of a client. So like today, if I'm trying to acquire a $10,000 client, I'm trying to get you to spend 10 grand with me. Like I'm willing to spend 1500 bucks. I, in a, in, in some cases I might even spend two grand. It's like if I, if I, if someone could I give 2 grand to make 10, like I probably would, I wouldn't want to. It's not going to be good for the bottom line and maybe it causes some cash flow issues. So I, I don't want to just make a blanket statement, but I, me personally, I would be willing to spend 20%, right, because I know what I can do on the back end. Whereas these other people, they're just acquiring that customer and they'll spend 10, 15% and then they're done. And it's like, well, no, that's just a one time deal. What are you doing to like reengage that client? Like, you did their front yard, why aren't you doing their backyard six months later? How many referrals did you get out of it. Right. And so this was all stuff I learned along the way. I didn't know this when I started my lighting business. And so once I realized that, wow, the average lifetime value isn't 10,000, it's actually 30, 40, $50,000. Like that's incredible. And even though I thought when I started my lighting business, this wasn't a residual business, it's a one time deal. So you better get your money. It's not because what I found is again, they go front yard to backyard, then you get their neighbor. Then all of a sudden like a year or two later, like, hey, do you go out to the. To Possum Kingdom Lake? Possum Kingdom Lake? Yeah. Where's that? Two hours away. Sure. Oh, you want your lake house done? Of course. Why didn't I think of that? And then like three years later they sell their business like, hey, we got a new house. You thought the house was nice. Look at this one. And so all of a sudden the average value goes up. So it was a $10,000 job. Now it turned into a $20,000 project at their house front and back. Then we did their lake house for 20. And then when they got their nice house, it was 40 grand, you know what I mean? So like the lifetime value is where it's at and we really capitalize that on that in the lighting industry.

[Chris]

Yeah, man, that makes so much sense to think about LTV like that. And most don't. Right, because they're so short sighted on, on what that looks like. And it's just this. But, but some of it's a trained skill on how to ask for it or how to think about it. That's actually is a perfect segue into where I was going to go with this is. Sorry for the interruption, listeners. I want to give a quick shout out to our title sponsor of Rhino X 2026, evoke AI also to the Point sponsor. We're grateful for them. In my opinion, the best AI answering service in the game that actually keeps a human being, us based in the loop. So if you hit 0, you can get to a human being. When I put these guys up against the other competitors, they won hands down. So again, shout out to our title sponsor for Rhino X and our TTP sponsor, Evoka AI, the best AI agent in the game. Check out the link below for Evoke AI in the show. Notes to the Point listeners, listen up. What if the biggest thing holding back your business isn't marketing or hiring, but your bennies? The benefits for home service companies. A better 401k can be the difference between great techs and losing them to the shop right down the street. Basic Capital, our newest sponsor, is the only 401k built to actually put your team on a real path to retirement. Companies that switch over see higher participation, happier teams, and dramatically low turnover. Because your crew finally gets a plan that's a true benefit, not just a checkbox. Don't wait until your best people walk, make the move and click the link below to get 12 months with 0 employer fees when you join Basic Capital. The thing that gives me heartburn about project based businesses, there's no recurring revenue, you know, and so my brain always goes to, well, how can I create recurring revenue in this? And even if it's I think like to. Your point is, I'll use my friend's business again as an example if he's putting in artificial turf. Well, give yourself a reason to go back to this home, cleaning it, right? A court, once a quarter, whatever it is, it's you know, oh, by the way, Mr. Mrs. Jones, you know, I added an extra, you know, 1 99, you know, annual like fee that I come back twice and clean it for you. And it's all part of it. Don't worry about it. I got it like something minuscule where there's a little bit of recurring revenue for it. But really you're just trying to get back there so you have another chance to connect with them and you clean this, you know, the artificial turf like and, and, or whatever. This was just an example I give. I don't do any of this stuff, but I'm just trying to think how can I generate some recurring revenue really to get back to the home.

[Ryan Lee]

We, so we have that in the lighting industry. And, and here's what's. I don't know. This is a good conversation and I appreciate your perspective because I, I realize like, especially when you start talking like private equity and stuff like that, like they don't want project based, they want the recurring, right? And so in our world we sell maintenance plans. Okay. We actually just recently changed the names from a maintenance plan to a protection plan. And so at one of our events, our members only event, we do what's called 10k ideas. Everyone in the room gets an opportunity to share a $10,000 idea that's not an idea, not a theory, but something they actually implemented in their business that helps them earn an additional $10,000. And so we had 40 people share a $10,000 idea. That's $400,000 I have ideas and some of them were way bigger than 10k, but minimum 10k. One of the guys, it was so simple, but it was the favorite of the group. It was like, don't call it maintenance plan. When Best Buy started calling their things protection plans, they saw like a 30% increase in their profit or some, some crazy stat, I can't remember. But we're like, duh, let's start calling it protection plans. But here's, here's my thoughts on this in, at least in the lighting world. And again, I'm, I've been wrong before. I'll probably be wrong a lot more times just by the end of today. Right. But in a lighting world, we do make a lot of money because we're talking 20 to 30 points on $10,000. We're not talking 20 to 30 points on like a $700 pressure washing average ticket. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of money there. So we make our money on the project. So my whole goal with maintenance plans, which we now, now call protection plans, was actually just to retain that client. And I, and I've gone on the record of saying this, like I'd be willing to break even on a protection plan just to maintain the relationship with that client because now I have a wrapped van in their neighborhood two to four times a year. That's going to increase my chances of getting one of their neighbors to move forward with me. And we have real evidence of that. Now if I'm going to sell my business to private equity, I'll probably change my stance a little bit on that. Like, let me show them how much profit I make on, on protection plans. But I just know the value of the high ticket that I want to, you know, really stay in front of.

[Chris]

Yeah. And you get another, you know, you get another shot at referrals. Yeah, man. You know, and if you forgot to get the review, which you should get the review, make sure you get through the reviews too. God, this is interesting. Me, so I'm an entrepreneur, man. So like I'm like literally as you're saying it, glad my wife's not listening to this. Like, my brain thinks like, God, how easy is to build one of these things? And I think it's easier because I like have experienced it as a consumer on like feeling good about making that kind of a purchase. You know, I think my landscape lighting alone was like 18 grand or something like that. And then I added the other 10 for the, you know, the house. I'm almost $30,000 into lighting and I feel really good about it. It looks really awesome.

[Ryan Lee]

Isn't that cool? Like that's, that's what I love about the lighting industry. Like we actually make people feel awesome. Like, it's not like you have buyer's remorse. It's not, you know, H Vac, I'm probably going to piss the whole audience off right now. But H Vac roofing, like all those things are awesome, but like people have to have them. Like people don't, don't wake up and like, man, you know what'd be cool is if I could drop like 25, 30 grand on a new unit. Like they don't really want to buy it.

[Chris]

You know what I mean? I guarantee you, right, you're not pissing anybody off. We all, we talk about like, I'm in the roofing business, I have a roofing company, ain't nobody want a damn have to pay for a roof. Like nobody.

[Ryan Lee]

Exactly. So it sucks. Like you're selling something that people, it sucks. Okay, let's just agree on that. But lighting, like, why do people go on vacation? Why do they go to Hawaii? Why do they go to Costa Rica? Why do they go to Europe? They don't have to go to these places, but they frickin want to. And they will spend five, ten grand. And what's crazy, they'll spend that money for seven days. You invested 30 grand. But you get to experience, literally an experience, not a product. You get to experience it every single night. When you pull up, you feel like a king, right? Your house is lit now for security purposes. When you go in your backyard, you can chill and set the mood and relax and unwind so that maybe you had a stressful day, but you can relax and unwind. So maybe you're a little bit nicer to your kids, maybe you're a little bit nicer to your spouse. It's so rewarding selling something and providing something that people want. And it pays off every single night.

[Chris]

I love it well, because I have, you know, like the big pocket doors that are all glass so I can see out into my backyard. So I see all the, all the lighting. And I do love for me, for me it makes, I think I learned this my last house. It was like my first like house I was like really proud of. It was my last, my last home. And, and when we did the lighting on it and remember pulling up to it, I was always so proud of pulling up to that house because of like, it just looks so damn good from the road. And I was like Looking at all my neighbor's houses, I'm like, man, mine looks really, really good. So when I did this next house, I didn't question it.

[Ryan Lee]

Literally. At church two weeks ago, one of my neighbors, he's like, cross corner. He's like, man, how does it feel to have the best lit house at night in the neighborhood? And I'm like, you know, it feels awesome. Like, to be honest, like, I've been doing this for 18 years. It still doesn't get old. I like to drive in my neighborhood a certain way just so I can see my house.

[Chris]

I used to do that at my last house too. Yeah, there's two ways you could come in. One was coming like up off the hill and you're coming down. You could just see it, like glowing down there at the bottom. It so cool. Okay, I gotta keep moving forward. I'm gonna get, I'm gonna lose all my time and all my questions. But. Okay, let's, let's think about this for a second again. I'm, I'm asking this selfishly, Ryan. You know, when, when you've done, you've done a lot of coaching with some of these companies, have any of these been like, brand, like brand new, straight up, like from scratch? Like, this is a brand new business and I need your help on, on what I'm doing. Have you, have you coached from that, from that perspective?

[Ryan Lee]

No, I mean, all of these were existing businesses. What I have helped is an existing business bolt on landscape.

[Chris]

I was in my second question. Okay, and I want to get to that. So I didn't mean to cut you off, but, but I want to get. So, so, but, but let's. If you, if you. Today we're going to start your own, you know, you're, you're, you're starting out your own thing and it's called, you know, ABC Landscape, lighting, whatever. From off the top of your head that first year, what do you think you would do in sales revenue, Knowing what you know, what do you think you would do in sales ballpark you're in, you know, you're in Utah, but like, you have an idea of what you think you could accomplish in one year, knowing what you know about this business and your own skill.

[Ryan Lee]

All right, so am I brand new business or do I have an existing.

[Chris]

No brand equity whatsoever? You're talking, you're brand new. Like you're somebody listening right now saying, holy shit. Like, I might add this thing. This might be an add on service. Or maybe I start one of these things.

[Ryan Lee]

Well, if it's an add on service that's a no brainer. You literally send an email, a text, a phone call, a voicemail bomb to all your clients and tell them to do outdoor lighting and you're literally a couple of conversations away from bringing in 30, 40 grand a month. Right? That's three or four jobs a month. Let's just say we don't have that. So. Dude, I got four kids. If I didn't have, I've got an 11 year old as well at home, she's my youngest. If I didn't have them, dude, I would have already done this. I want to go on YouTube. I want to film myself starting the business from ground up and I want to, I don't, I don't want to do it with money. I want to do it with like this, the lowest budget possible. Just my knowledge, me knocking doors, doing the hard stuff. But I, I think I can do a million dollars in eight months. Because eight months is about the, the time we have in Utah with this year. We could, we had 12 months. Like we'd have an unfair advantage, but I think I could do it in eight months. I, I honestly do got it.

[Chris]

And, and then in that time frame though, because of this protection plan, you're building a membership base that you can continue to go back to and work. So then you go into year two and like, and you're starting to build a little bit of brand equity depending on how you're going about it. But yeah, I mean, yeah, the, the.

[Ryan Lee]

Protection plans aren't going to be a huge portion of that first million because again, like they don't, we don't have that customer base. So I gotta, I just gotta hit the doors hard. So I'm gonna go to like, I mean, I'm, I'm right here, I'm in a nice area, but I'm not like, I wouldn't knock doors in my neighborhood. I'm gonna go the neighborhood next door where these are the big boys. I mean there's a difference between being like rich and wealthy. And you know, I mean, like, there's different levels. So I'd go knock on there. I'd literally knock on their door and be like, who freaking built your house? Like, you have to introduce me to them. And by the way, who did your interior design? Like, your house is beautiful, deserves to be on the COVID of a magazine. Oh, who built your pool? And your landscaping is gorgeous. Oh, who did their artificial turf? I would go hit the network hard. And these referral partners. What's beautiful about Them you can get into these neighborhoods in the front door. Because these people aren't going to go Google, hey, I'm looking for someone to spend $125,000 on my landscape lighting with. Who would that be? They're going to ask these people I just mentioned, right? Home automation companies. I would go hit up all these people who already have relationships who say, listen, if you guys need someone to do your lighting, I got a guy. And that would, that would be because it'd be too hard to go sell like $205,000 landscape lighting jobs. That traditional marketing is going to get you a lot of those. And I would do that too, but I wouldn't start there.

[Chris]

Got it. Now, have you had to. I mean the add on piece to me seems simple. I just am trying to understand the math of it. Like, would it make, would it make sense? What kind of, what kind of staffing does that type of a business need? I don't know all those things. I'm not to go clear down that path, but have been talking about it.

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Have you, well, so dogs. Have you, have you added, have you ever worked with like a H Vac or a plumbing company, like electrical? Seems like it would be an easy transition because you could bucket it together. I mean, even though it might be low volt, it still could be bucketed together. But have you had, have you had done this as an add on or with any H vac or plumbing or know of who have done that with this? Because I don't ever hear that. I don't think I've ever heard someone in H Vac and plumbing bring this on as an additional service.

[Ryan Lee]

I, I haven't seen it yet.

[Chris]

I haven't either.

[Ryan Lee]

I was talking to Dustin over at any hour they're here in Utah and I'm like, could we make that work? Like, could we actually like bolt this on? You know? And I think, I mean, you can do whatever you want. Anything's possible.

[Chris]

I take it back. I do know one. I know one you do. And I'm gonna see if you know who they are. And he, this is a guy who I, I really respect. He's down in Austin, Texas. His name is Bobby Jenkins and he owns abc. It's ABC down there. They're massive and they do H vac, plumbing, electrical, Christmas lights, garage doors, pest control, landscape. They do everything. Look it up. He's down in Austin, Texas. Names Bobby Jenkins. Awesome human being. But he does all these things. He's the only one that I know of that actually overlaps all this stuff. God, I haven't. I did a podcast interview with him back in 2020. That long ago? I got to read.

[Ryan Lee]

I don't, I don't know him. No, I, I think it would be a new thing.

[Chris]

Huge.

[Ryan Lee]

I mean it's still a new thing for people to like grasp their mind that there's an industry and you can have a multimillion dollar business with exterior lighting. It's just a foreign thing. It's my initiative in life. It's my mission right now to con the world that we are. We're like the ugly girl in middle school that's about to get hot. You know, that's what I truly feel like overlooked. Like, who cares? We can just go build like a 300 million dollar h vac company. Why would we do this? You know, it's like, well, that is true, but with your help. I need that, I need the help of you, these other industries to like suck us in. Because the outdoor lighting industry is behind the times with, with just even mindset and like what's possible and automations and technology and all these things. So that's my goal. That's why we're talking.

[Chris]

I think it's shiny other like there's so much, there's so much being thrown out from an AI perspective right now that that's kind of the, the distraction at the moment. Yeah, but this is why we're doing this podcast is like it's different than a normal podcast that I would do. But I'm listen, I think part of it is just I'm opening people up to like considering, like is there, like it doesn't always need to be the same. Like, is there something that we can do differently? I mean, if you can. What's, what's the biggest, what's the biggest lighting business that you've worked with? That's like straight up, you know, straight up lighting. Whether it be a mixture of the landscape, the holiday, the permanent whatever. Like what's the biggest one that you've worked with? Just so our listeners have some perspective on the size of a business, $5.

[Ryan Lee]

Million a year only landscape wise, that's a great business.

[Chris]

That's a great business. Now you might be sitting at the, you know, I'm not sure what it looks like as far as staffing on this stuff too, but if you're sitting at 20% on a $5 million business, that's not a bad living. It's not a bad thing. Yeah, I mean, or, or an add on service.

[Ryan Lee]

I think, I think where you got to go if, if you want to add it on or not. It's not just something that's like hey, let's just throw this on that, that, that can get businesses into trouble. Like and I've had some that reach out to me like dude, we love what you're doing. We found your podcast, blah blah blah and like they're, they're not actually fully committed. If you're gonna do it, you can't just be like hey, electricians while you're out there, like see if they might want to do landscape lighting. And like no, you need like someone who's like the, the hero, the champion to be like no, I'm going to be the lighting guy and they're going to get super specific and they're going to learn design and they're going to learn installation and they're going to learn how to sell it. And like, because that's going to convey in the messaging, it's going to come across in the sales process. Like if it's on the side, yeah, you might be able to pick up some clients but someone has to fall in love with it. Otherwise it's just going to end up becoming a nuisance and it's a waste of time. And it's like, why don't you just focus on like sell more, a couple more AC units instead, you know?

[Chris]

Yeah, you have to have a champion of that. We've had, we've had so many podcasts on add on. When is the right time to add on another industry or another trade and how like so many of the Chad on here would have went down that path right away because he's multi trade business with H vac plumbing and electrical. Our roofing business is just roofing. It's not a part of his, his company. It's completely separate. But I'll tell you in like winter, we're, you know, we're, it's, it's in Indianapolis, Indiana. So like we can't get on roofs. We ain't making any money, right. So we're trying to look at alternatives. So we're doing installation, you know, things that we can do while you can't get on the roof. And we were looking at so many of these roofing companies start offering holiday lighting, you know, and none of us know how to do any of it. Like it doesn't seem that complicated. I saw it get installed on my house, you know, it didn't seem that complicated. But I don't, I don't, I'm not patched like I could go and talk about it from my perspective as a consumer, but as far as a business, like. And I don't want to own that piece, but someone would have to own that, you know? And then who's going to manage the installation piece of it?

[Ryan Lee]

Like, exactly. So you need to commit to a whole lighting division, a whole lighting brand. It, like, it has to be there, and you will find the person. One thing people really like about outdoor lighting is it checks a box off. Like, there's an artistic element to it. Whereas, like, electrical can just be like, man, I'm just doing the same thing every day over and over and over. Landscape lighting, like, they. I mean, you get to, like, think. You get to, like, get creative, right, and come up with new ideas and concepts, and you're meeting with new people with different budgets and stuff like that. And then what people really love about it is the. The impact, you know, like, if you build a pool or a house, it takes nine months to over a year. By the time you're done with the home builder, you're usually like, dude, these guys suck. You know, they've messed up so many things along the way. Most of these lighting installations, you can finish a $10,000 install in one day. So people are like, whoa. Like, you guys are the coolest people I've ever worked with in my life. It's cleaned up. There's not huge trenches in the grass. Like, how did you guys do this? They're, like, amazed. And so your client satisfaction score goes way up. That's pretty awesome. We're all in this for money, but at the end of the day, we're not. Who cares? Once you figure out how to make money, you're looking for something else. And so you find that champion that's really enjoying that process. And that's what. Almost all my clients say the same thing. I'm like, so what do you love most about the lighting industry? Man, I love the look on my client's face when I turn the lights on. And it's like every night. You love that. Oh, yeah. Like, that's. That's how they receive impact, is by providing this service that's badass. And I don't think anyone realized it when they got into it, that was like, whoa. Like, it's so different than anything else out there because it provides high level of customer satisfaction, highly profitable, high ticket, and people, like, love you, and it's enjoyable. It gives you impact. Like, that's. That's kind of a rare thing to find.

[Chris]

Yeah, I mean, nobody wants you to have to be at their house multiple, multiple days in a row. I mean that. Yeah, like, I think when I put in my, that holiday lighting, I mean they were there like half a day. It was pretty damn quick, you know, and well, okay, so we're getting a little bit short on time, but I want to jump into this piece of it because you, you, you, you mentioned like these things making money and part of what you've been able to do is help these companies like double their profits. Profits, most important word there. And it's because you have some proven sales and marketing like methods that you are probably your go to that you when you're coaching these companies. Like these are things that you're going to teach them. And then I don't know if there's accountability layer to that too or how it looks ongoing for coaching, but can you maybe just walk me through the how? Because I think, I think it was on the site, Ryan, that it said you helped, you know, clients generate over 50 something million dollars or 60 or somewhere in that number. So, so can we just touch on a couple of those real quick? And let's start with this, with the, this. Let's start with the sales side of it. Like, and you don't have to tell me everything that you do, but when you go and you say, okay, first thing I'm gonna do is this is my sales coaching process. I'm gonna look for this or we're gonna do this. Can you start me there and then we'll go to marketing.

[Ryan Lee]

Sure. Yeah. I love it. Well, I'm just going to assume that everyone already has like good branding in place because if they don't have good branding in place, that's a whole nother podcast episode.

[Chris]

Then you know who they need, right?

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah, exactly. We know a guy.

[Chris]

We know a guy.

[Ryan Lee]

They're coming to light it up.

[Chris]

They're coming to light it up. Shout out to Prolific.

[Ryan Lee]

Because literally, like I've got so much love for that because, like I can install the perfect, the perfect sales process, which mine is not perfect, but it's damn close. But if you have weak branding and you, and you don't have positioning, I call it positioning. Like it's just an uphill battle at that point. So let's just assume that they've hired Prolific.

[Chris]

Okay, well now we're go time.

[Ryan Lee]

Then let's just assume that they did a good job pre qualifying. Okay. We got in front of our ideal client Avatar. My sales process starts with what I call a price marinade. So I don't know. Did you? Let me ask you. You did lighting at your house when they told you the price, was it higher or lower than you expected it to be?

[Chris]

It was higher. Sorry for the interruption, folks. Want to give a quick shout out to our Rhino X day session sponsor, Chirp. Also a to the point sponsor, Chirp. Oh, I love Chirp. I love Ryan Finn. I love Justin Judd. Those guys are fantastic. The virtual ride along game, they are the best and they integrate directly in with service time. What more could you ask for? These guys are the best of the best. Check out the link below in the show notes.

[C]

If you've been listening to this show, you'll know that I only talk about tools that actually help our team. And Bluon is definitely one of those. At Peterman Brothers, our techs are using Bluon every single day. It's become their go to resource. It really is like having a senior tech in your pocket. They can scan a unit, get all the model data, wiring diagrams, parts, and even troubleshoot. With Bluon's AI, we've seen fewer callbacks, faster fixes, and happier techs. And that's why I'm such a big believer in Bluon, because it actually works. So do yourself a favor, click on the link in the description and book a quick demo with the Bluon team to see it in action.

[Ryan Lee]

How much was this sticker shock? Were you like, damn, like, I didn't know lighting could be $18,000. I thought it would be Costco prices plus a thousand bucks to install. Like, what? What was your reaction?

[Chris]

Yeah, no, it wasn't. It was higher than I expected it to be, but not so high that I was like, yeah, this is absolutely not. It was like, okay, I just need to understand why, you know, it's the price. And once they explained it to me, it made sense.

[Ryan Lee]

All right, cool. You might be a little bit unique because you're a baller.

[Chris]

Well, remember, and that's what I'm saying. But remember because. Because the first house I did it on, I was kind of got used to it. So this next one, I have way more. I have way more lighting than the previous house. So I knew in my head it was probably going to be a decent amount more. And so go back to the first time.

[Ryan Lee]

Then when they. Whatever the price.

[Chris]

Yeah, that one I had sticker shot. That one I for sure had sticker shotgun. Because I'm thinking, man, I just used to put the little SOL lights in my yard and these things lit up and they kind of sucked. But yeah, that one that one, I had some. That one had some pain associated with it.

[Ryan Lee]

All right, So I forgot you had already had that done. The one. So their sticker shock is going to exist. I. I have not invented a way to eliminate sticker shock. And so what we do is just lean into it, and we know you're going to have sticker shock. I mean, I've been at. At homes that are like $10 million homes. Multiple exotic cars out in the front yard. And I tell them it's $25,000.

[Chris]

And they.

[Ryan Lee]

I was in Texas. They're literally, like, ready to shoot me. They're like, what the hell? Like, is that because we're a gated neighborhood? I mean, they just. They just have to have the sticker shock. And so what we do is just lean into it with what I call a price marinade, where we give them the sticker shock, allow them to have the seizure and emotions and stuff, process it, and then we go in with a lower price later on. So they get the exact opposite of sticker shock, which we call sticker relief. So how this works, I show up to your house, I'm like, hey, Chris, I know on the phone we told you an average job was, let's say, like, Your house was 18 grand, right? For landscape lighting. Hey, Chris, I know on the phone we told you our average job is about 10 to 12, which is true, but your house is beautiful, man. Like, whatever you're doing, keep doing it. I just. I know other projects we've done similar to this have been as high as like, 35, 40 grand. So I just wanted to totally be transparent with you. Okay. Does that. Does that sound about, like, what you're looking for? And so when you say that, people are like, hell, no, that's not what I was looking for. On the phone, you said it was going to be 10. I'm like, no worries. I'm sure we can find something that fits within your budget. Let's walk the property and see really kind of what your goals are. I have no idea what you guys are looking to do. Let's walk your property to see what works best for you. But how much were you kind of thinking it was going to be? All right. And so when I asked that question, I'm really asking, what's your budget? Without saying, what's your budget? Because anyone who ever asks, what's your budget, dude, they're not going to tell you. Even if they knew their budget, they're not going to tell you, right? So just don't ask stupid questions. Just tell them the number. Then after I say, hey, Chris, it could be as high as 35 to 40. You know, I told you on the phone, 10 to 12. Like, what would be your response? How much were you thinking it was going to be?

[Chris]

Chris, when you're saying. When you're asking me. Good Lord, you guys feel. Now I'm having issues in here. It sounds like there's all kinds of stuff going on in this office. Good grief. Sound like a. I can't hear it felt like dogs. No, it felt like. Like a earthquake is happening here. Holy shoot. Okay, you're going to ask me that question. You're going to position that question to me again as if it's the first time I'm buying. You've asked me. You've given me the 30 to $40,000 number. And that's kind of.

[Ryan Lee]

I sold you a 30 40, I said, and then, you know, let's walk your property. I'm sure we can find something that fits within your budget. How much were you expecting it?

[Chris]

You know, 10, $15,000.

[Ryan Lee]

Cool. No worries. Don't stress. I don't want you to shoot me. I don't want you to freak out. Let's find out. Because, like I said, I'm sure we can find something within your budget. Does that sound fair?

[Chris]

Yes.

[Ryan Lee]

Can we do that? Cool. So what's important here is we take them out of the frame, out of the set that they're in right now, because they're in a state that is not good. Right. But I want to get that state over with, because what I don't want to do is do this beautiful presentation, get to the end, and they go, well, it's just a lot more than we thought. Let. Give us some time to think about it. Let's talk it over. Like, that's just like, I don't want to deal with that. So I'm going to allow you to do that now, and then I'm going to reset your state, get you walking your property. I'm going to talk about your dreams and. And what do you like to do? And how do you relax and unwind? Do you have a drink? Do you have a cigar? Like, what does your night look like? What's your day look like? What's your family life look like? Right? So get them out of that state. And then I'm going to actually separate myself. I'm going to send them into the house. Now we're in control. It's our own business. So even though we're dealing with these high Profile high caliber people. We have to take control. So we don't ask permission to come into their house. We say, listen, I'm gonna go put the proposal together right now. That way you guys can make an informed decision if it's something you guys want to do or not. When I come in, do you want me to knock or is it okay if I just come in? So you're setting the stage, you're pre explaining, you're pre educating. This is how it works at our business. I know we're at your house and I'm asking permission, but I'm not asking permission to come in. I'm like, do I knock or is it okay if I come in? So they know you're coming in, otherwise they're going to meet you at the front door, close it right behind them and be like, so what are we looking at? Right? So that's how the price marinade works. And what's cool when they're in the house, what do you think they're talking about? They're not talking about what they're where they're going on vacation. They're going, that guy's nuts. If he thinks I'm spending 35, 40 grand, I'm literally going to kick him off our property. Right. So then when you go in with the price marinated at high 35.40 and I come in and I do give you an option, by the way, that's 35 or 40, but then I give you a, you know, and I start with that one. This one's our like bells and whistles. Maybe you guys don't need this. Not sure. Just want to let you know this is what the option is with warranties and everything. This is our most popular one. It's right at 18 and it comes with this, this and this. And again, most people do this one. And then of course we have our, our more basic level, which starts at about 16. So 16, 18, 35. Which works best for you, Chris? That, that is like a combination. I don't have time to get into all the details, but that's a combination of our price marinade and our triple option where they work together.

[Chris]

Got it. So this is your sales process that includes overcoming objections that you know that are going to be there. There's a setup for it. There's the assumptive. Assumptive we'll call up not an assumptive, close the assumptive, invite into the home, which helps the sales process be more sticky. Like. Got it. So you're taking them down this sales process, and then half of it too, is how you talk to them. Right? Like, you, like, you're well spoken, you understand how to talk to someone. And if you don't have that, well, you need to find the right person who has that because you are kind of like selling. I think one thing you said that was interesting too is this almost seems like it's a good. It's a good job for a creative. Right. Who can explain, you know, the feeling of having the lighting. And where my brain went to is if I'm the guy walking around the yard and I'm the sales guy, I'm thinking, well, okay, here's where all the lighting would be. Where do you. Where do you not want it? And like, where would you not want the lighting? If you're thinking about reducing the price? That's kind of where my head went to.

[Ryan Lee]

Yep.

[Chris]

I don't know.

[Ryan Lee]

That comes up later. I mean, so I lead with, like, I just assume that the homeowner knows nothing. I mean, I'm a homeowner. I'm an ignorant homeowner, too. If you're coming to my house selling me H vac, I don't. Are you kidding me? Like, what would I know? I know there's a thing outside and then there's a thing in the basement, right? So, like, we need to know that we are the expert, we are the guide, we are the trusted advisor, sells this. The term salespeople, you know, it's dirty and used car sales, whatever. Like, I don't care. I'm proud to be a salesperson. Right? But if you need to call yourself a trusted advisor, a guide, a helper, like, that's really what we're doing here. And so it's your moral obligation to show them what's possible, because if they go, well, you know, we have $8,000 we want to spend. What can we do for that? It's like, it's going to look okay. Like. But if, honestly, as a professional, I've been in the industry for, you know, almost 20 years, would it be okay if I design on possibilities instead of price? Of course they're going to be open to that. Right? And then like you said, if. If you show them the, the wild thing at 40 grand and they don't want to do it, all right, well, what do you want to take out? So you can still get to their point. But I feel like it's our moral obligation as salespeople to show them what's possible because they don't know. They don't know, you know, and so. And I learned this the hard way, too. This isn't stuff that's just like, I born. I was born knowing this stuff. I learned the hard way because I listened to my clients because some other business coach or book said, listen to your clients. Well, your clients just don't know jack, so why are you listening to them? Right? And so I would do it. And they go, you know what? It's just, it doesn't look like your website. I'm like, well, yeah, it doesn't look like our website because you didn't spend 45 grand, you spent eight. What do you want me to do here? And they're like, well, shouldn't you have, like, taken control? I'm like, damn it, you're right. I should have taken control. I should have been the expert. Why didn't I? So, like, all this stuff was learned along the way.

[Chris]

I love it. Well, listen, I mean, we're already 60 minutes into this fricking thing and I had four more questions left. But I want to let you go on that because you were on one and I actually was really enjoying that process.

[Ryan Lee]

So.

[Chris]

So I'm going to ask these next questions, but we're going to kind of do like a little bit of a lightning. Lightning round. Okay?

[Ryan Lee]

I don't know what lightning means. I talk a lot. You can't shut me up.

[Chris]

Well, so here's. We're going to have to do our best, otherwise we're going to lose everybody. Once you get past an hour, it's hard to keep everybody engaged. But I want to ask the marketing side of this thing, so maybe give me as high level as you can. Like, what are the, you know, what's the best way if you can't cross market to existing customers?

[Ryan Lee]

Right.

[Chris]

Like, what have you seen be successful in marketing? Is it some grassroots stuff like, what have you seen that's helpful for these guys to try and go out and market to get the opportunity to sell these customers. Sorry for the interruption, listeners. I want to give a quick shout out to our evening sponsor at Rhino X 2026, good leap. I love Good Leap. They've been a sponsor for multiple years. They are the best financing option in the game. I know that Peterman Brothers use uses them. Redbird Roofing uses them. Rhino has used them as their vendor partner because they're that dang good at getting contractors clients approved. So thank you to Good Leap for being a sponsor yet again for Rhinox 2026. Check out their link below in the show notes.

[Ryan Lee]

Traditional Marketing is awesome. Okay, so build a brand on social media. Again, I'm assuming your branding's in place. Right. But email marketing, which I know, you know, Prolific does email marketing as well. Google Ads, direct mail. Okay, direct mail is not a game for the week. Like, you got to have some deep pockets, because if you throw five grand at something, it doesn't work and you stop well, then you just wasted money. But if you can put five grand a month behind it, you're gonna make some. You're gonna make some money. Right? So all those things are great, but the, The. The secret, if you want to call it that, the. The big one where my top clients are getting these, they're going from average ticket to 10 grand to like 50 grand. 100 grand, 200 grand. Those are all through referral partners.

[Chris]

That's exactly where I was going.

[Ryan Lee]

Landscape architects, pool builders, home builders, home automation companies, interior designers. Dude, interior designers. I've got one right now for a cabin I'm building. I don't even get to choose anything anymore. Like, I. Like, she just writes, she decides everything. Like what? I thought it was my place. Right. So they control everything. If you get in with them, you're golden. And like you said, you looked out your back windows. It's. They can extend the. In indoor living space by looking and turn those black mirrors that you got, your glass windows, they're black mirrors with no lights back there. As soon as you get lighting, it extends the outdoor living space.

[Chris]

Yeah. So then you just totally. And then you just work out a referral deal with them. And that's what the partnership looks like. Right. Like a standard, just referral partnership type of offer. Whatever it is, whatever works for your business. Perfect. That makes so much sense to me because that's actually the advice that I gave was like, you need to go and find some people to. You know, we have a buddy that does pools. Like, I guarantee you he has opportunity there and vice versa. Right. If you're going to do things. So working out referral. Referral partnerships is a big deal to do. And like, the likelihood of it actually closing is significantly higher too.

[Ryan Lee]

They're not asking like, well, how much is it? They're just like, so when can you get it done?

[Chris]

Yep.

[Ryan Lee]

Higher quality, higher quality leads, higher average ticket. No brainer. That's why I said if I was to start a lighting business here in Utah, I would just start with referral partners and then I'd turn on marketing to support it as well. But yeah, that's right.

[Chris]

You got to. You still Gotta have cash flow, right? So go the grassroots, you know, the grassroots sweat equity route first. Build some stuff.

[Ryan Lee]

Exactly.

[Chris]

But you gotta have a good brand. So I'm going to go ahead and just finish with this. I'm going to just pivot real quick to the Light It Up Expo because you started this thing and I'm guessing it came from this love of that you have of building this thing and working with people. And then, you know, you kind of said you're almost pioneering, trying to push this thing into the H vac, plumbing, electrical, roof, like that conversation to where now it's a part of these, you know, it's a part of the consideration of a trade line, you know, or a service offering for these businesses. So I respect that and hopefully we're able to do that with this podcast. But you started the Lighted Up Expo. This is, we talked about early on. This is year two. Thank you for having Prolific come to this and Zach will do a fantastic job speaking for you. He's a great speaker. Speaker. You got to spend some time chatting with them. So thank you for, for doing that and letting us be a part of it. But maybe, just maybe just say, why did you do it and what's your hope to get from it?

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah, thanks, man. I appreciate the opportunity and I'm looking forward to having Zach there. I mean, I, I looked at Zach when I first met, I'm like, is he gonna be able to deliver? And like two minutes in I'm like, oh, this guy's, this guy's got it. So excited to have him there. So the reason I started Light Up Expo is because quite frankly, it was, it was needed in the industry. It didn't exist. If you wanted to learn about how to install landscape lighting in the past, you might be lucky if a manufacturer was thrown on a training. A few years ago, I started doing my own in person trainings because again, I didn't want to teach people how to design an install. But there wasn't anyone teaching that, right. I just wanted to teach people how to scale their business, teach them my proven pricing, sales, marketing strategies, like, let's go, right. But then all of a sudden I had people reaching out from the permanent lighting side and the holiday lighting side. And now there's even another thing which we. I'll just kind of throw a wrench in there. Outdoor audio. Okay, so at this event we have hands on training where people can actually learn how to do their very first install, right? So they're going to walk away and be like, oh, dude, I Got this. This is actually more simple than I thought. Right. And then we're. We basically are bringing in this in one room, all the manufacturers, all the distributors, all the service providers, which we'll call, like, Prolific is going to be there. There's AI companies, marketing companies, recruiting companies. So anything that you will actually need in your business at any point in time to help you grow is going to be in that room. And it just didn't exist. I mean, there's a couple organizations that are out there in the outdoor lighting world. They've been around for 25 years. They don't have 150 members. We've already sold over 215 tickets to Light it up, and it's our second year. Next year we'll have 500. The year after that, we'll have a thousand. So someone needed to come in and lay the groundwork. Someone had to put something together that had training, that had experts, that had the speakers, had the networking, that had the trade show. So that's why I did it. And what I'm hoping to get out of it is I'm trying to bring these communities together because there's so much overlap. There's people that are doing landscape lighting that didn't know about permanent lighting. How do I do that? How do I bolt that on? There's people that were doing permanent that didn't know how to do landscape lighting. Right. And then now, again, a kind of a new category. It's not new, as new to a lot of people is the outdoor audio. So we've almost filled up that. That training, and I think we announced it five days ago, and it's almost full, so really, really cool stuff. I just like bringing people together. I like being a connector. And my mission is to convince the world that lighting is where it's at. And it's such an awesome, awesome opportunity. I mean, I would say less than 5% of, like, homes that should have professional lighting on them don't. I mean, you can go into really nice gated neighborhoods, and they still have the Costco solar lights, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I'm just stoked, man. I love this industry. I'm super passionate about it. And anytime I can help someone better their life by helping them make more money, buy back their time, replace themselves, like, that's my mission, so.

[Chris]

Well, I'm excited because I'm gonna go and check it out. Like, you know, I have. I've got one day that I can be there, and then I gotta go to You're. You're. In. Is yours. Is in Orlando. Is it? Are you in Orlando, right?

[Ryan Lee]

That's right. Okay, the other one I got Orlando. It's like three through six. Hopefully you're coming on like five or six.

[Chris]

I don't remember which day I'm there, but. Because I have to go down to Miami for another. A speaking event I gotta go do, but I'll be there nonetheless. I'm excited to check it out. And you still have some. You ended up. You sold out. And then you add a little bit more. Some more tickets, so. Which is very cool. So now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, I need to have my friend Chris go to this thing, you know, because that's who I've been thinking about is with this. With his, you know, landscape business, his hardscapes. And he's, you know, building pergolas and, you know, barbecues and all this other stuff.

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah, he should totally come. Yeah.

[Chris]

And then when you talk about teaching the install piece of it, it's like, you know, he could consume so much that way, and he's kind of got the creative piece to it. You knows how to, like, you know, like. So he's got it, and he just needs, like, the. The help with the business side of it. So this would be like. This is like, the perfect event for someone like him to go to.

[Ryan Lee]

It totally is. He should come. But literally, there's no, like, homie hookup. It's not, like, fake scarcity and urgency. We literally. It's not a massive hotel. There's only so many seats. So if people miss out, I'm like, I still love you, but just come next year.

[Chris]

Yeah. And you have a wait list. That's cool too, Bab. But I mean, I just. I'm, you know, I love that you at least made the effort, you know, after you sold out, to make it a little bit. It's pretty cool, man. People that you. You had to ask, right? Like, you could try to get more people in there. I think it's pretty neat and it is cool.

[Ryan Lee]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And it's all about exterior illumination and now a little bit of audio. Exterior. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to be one one, you know, thanks for, you know, giving me over, you know, an hour on this podcast. It flew by because we covered so much cool stuff. I'm genuinely interested in. I hope that our listeners are. Are too, like. And they say, like, wow, okay. Maybe. Maybe that's something we should really consider. What if somebody wants to reach out to you? Would you mind just sharing Contact information for best contact information for you. Right?

[Ryan Lee]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm on social media, Instagram at Landscape lighting Secrets on Facebook, Ryan Lee. And you know, you can just email us, support ryanlee coaching.com. but yeah, once you, once you find me on social media, I've got a podcast as well. I can send you a link and yeah, just reach out personally.

[Chris]

What's the name of the podcast?

[Ryan Lee]

Lighting for Profits.

[Chris]

Lighting for Profits. Go, go check it out. Then you can get this stuff on the regular.

[Ryan Lee]

So.

[Chris]

Well, listen, man, I appreciate it, actually, it's.

[Ryan Lee]

I don't want to make too big of a deal out of it, but it's. I'm actually the, the host of the number one landscape lighting podcast in the world, so. Yeah.

[Chris]

Oh, this. Okay, Just gonna, you know, casually toss that out there.

[Ryan Lee]

It's the only landscape lighting podcast in the world, but still it's the number one.

[Chris]

Run with it. Run with it. Well, listen, man, I appreciate coming on, sharing everything too. I'm excited about it, man. I'm glad we're able to make it happen pretty quick and before your event. So hopefully this helps, kind of add a few more seats to it, you know, from people in my world, you know, and, and can go and check things out and especially if you're in Florida, like, you got no damn excuse like get over there and go check it out for real. But I appreciate that. I appreciate all the information on this, too, and like, you know, kind of giving a little bit, you know, of the sales tactics. I'm sure there's a much deeper dive that you can go into that and especially with marketing, but you can't get into all that stuff. Right. It's what the coach for. Or come to the event and check it out yourself. But appreciate you giving us your time, Ryan.

[Ryan Lee]

Thanks, Chris. Appreciate you having me.

[Chris]

Yep. And to our listeners, like I always say, you don't got to do everything, but you got to do something. No. Zero days.