Kamala, 2028

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained — “Kamala, 2028”

Date: July 11, 2026
Host: Esteed Herndon (for Vox’s “America, Actually” segment)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the prospect of former Vice President Kamala Harris making a political comeback by running for president in 2028. Host Esteed Herndon explores whether there is genuine appetite—from Democratic insiders, party donors, and the Democratic base—for Harris’s third presidential run. Through interviews, voter polling at a Juneteenth picnic in South Carolina, and a frank conversation with prominent Democratic donor John Morgan, the episode offers a nuanced look at Harris’s political prospects and the state of the Democratic Party.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kamala Harris’s Potential Comeback (00:00–02:59; 02:59–04:26)

• Main theme: The likelihood and desire for Kamala Harris's presidential run in 2028.
• Harris has been visiting key Democratic primary states, engaging activists, and leading early primary polls, but faces wariness from within the party.
• Esteed’s key question: "Does anybody actually want the Kamala Harris comeback to happen?" (00:41)

2. Democratic Insiders & Campaign Surrogates (04:26–05:07)

• Surrogates’ Defense:
  • The 2024 campaign loss is framed as an anomaly due to Biden’s late dropout and unique circumstances.
  • “Jesus Christ would have lost in 2024 after the assassination attempt.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participant (04:26)
  • Harris was not able to build campaign infrastructure in time; some say she deserves a fair chance.
  • The base—especially Black voters and women—remain excited at the prospect of her return.

3. Understanding Kamala's Decision-Making (05:07–06:36)

• With Jamal Simmons (former Harris communications director):
  • Critical questions for Harris: “Are the donors behind you? Are the voters behind you?”
  • The importance of campaign infrastructure and base support.

4. The Democratic Base: South Carolina Juneteenth Picnic (06:36–18:54)

• Esteed takes the discussion to likely Democratic primary voters in a crucial early state.

Voter Sentiments:

• Skepticism about Electability: Many express doubts about whether a Black woman can win a national election:
  • “She’s stacking up the minority cards a little bit too much. You know, if it didn’t go for Hillary, it’s definitely not going to go for Kamala.” — Participant (07:09)
  • “I would rather have a competent white man than have another Trump run that back.” — Participant (08:51)
• Concerns about Authenticity and Record:
  • Critiques on Harris’s criminal justice record and perceived opportunistic embrace of her racial identity.
  • “She was locking us up until she needed our vote.” — Participant (11:29)
• Desire for Change and a Fresh Face:
  • Some fear the Democratic Party needs new energy, not another candidate linked to Biden.
  • “We need to clean up the crap that’s in there.” — Participant (13:23)
• Persistent Hope & Gender Solidarity:
  • “We need women. Women do the thing, right? And every time we get a chance to make a step, they push us back.” — Participant (13:13)
  • “Third time’s a charm.” — Participant (13:35)
• Faith in Harris’s Qualities:
  • Some praise Harris’s intelligence, ability to anticipate political pitfalls, and sincerity.
  • “She told us everything that was going to happen... I think she’s genuine.” — Participant (14:06, 14:23)

Divided Perspectives:

• Doubts remain about whether America is “ready” for a female or Black female president.
• Desire for a strong, resilient candidate—Gavin Newsom is mentioned as an alternative, but many still pledge support for Harris if she runs.

5. The Donor Perspective: John Morgan Interview (21:55–29:03)

• Direct Response:
  • "I do not [want Harris to run for president again]. I think everything associated with the Biden administration needs to be put to the side and moved on." — John Morgan (22:14)
• Donor Fatigue and Perceived Lethargy:
  • Harris’s connection to the Biden White House and her 2024 “shellacking” complicate her chances with influential donors.
  • Donors worry that saying 'no' to Harris could be labeled as racist (24:26).
• Democratic Desire for Fresh Leadership:
  • Morgan lists alternative candidates: Andy Beshear, Mark Kelly, Wes Moore, Gretchen Whitmer.
  • "The campaign needs to be called Bye Bye Biden... and everybody associated with it." — John Morgan (28:45)
• On Democratic Primary Process:
  • Morgan insists fair primaries, not anointments, benefit the party.
  • "I believe the journey is the reward, not necessarily the win." — John Morgan (25:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Does anybody actually want the Kamala Harris comeback to happen?” — Esteed Herndon (00:41)
• “I think Jesus Christ would have lost in 2024 after the assassination attempt.” — Harris surrogate (04:26)
• “She’s stacking up the minority cards a little bit too much... if it didn’t go for Hillary, it’s definitely not going to go for Kamala.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participant (07:09)
• “I would rather have a competent white man than have another Trump... I think it’s unfortunate. That’s, like, where we are.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participant (08:51)
• “She was locking us up until she needed our vote?” — Esteed Herndon (11:27)
  • “Yeah.” — Participant
• “We need women. Women do the thing, right? And every time we get a chance to make a step, they push us back.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participant (13:13)
• “Third time’s a charm.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participant (13:35)
• “She told us everything that was going to happen... I think she’s genuine.” — Juneteenth Picnic Participants (14:06, 14:23)
• “Bye Bye Bye Biden and everybody associated with it, all the campaign managers, everybody that worked on the campaign, just go home, let’s start fresh.” — John Morgan (28:45)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00 — Introduction: Kamala’s potential 2028 run, set-up of the episode’s investigation
• 04:26 — Harris insiders’ justifications for her 2024 loss
• 05:07 — Jamal Simmons’ framework: “Are the donors and the voters behind you?”
• 06:36–18:54 — Voter interviews at South Carolina Juneteenth picnic
  • 07:09 — Scepticism on minority and women candidates
  • 11:29 — Critique of Harris’s past policies
  • 13:13–13:35 — Calls for women leadership
  • 14:23–14:49 — Belief in Harris’s genuineness and ability to learn
• 21:55 — Interview with John Morgan (donor perspective)
  • 22:14 — Morgan: “I do not [want Harris to run].”
  • 24:26 — Caution about being labeled racist if not supporting Harris
  • 25:00 — On primaries and personal ambition
  • 28:45 — “Bye Bye Bye Biden and everybody associated with it... let’s start fresh.”
• 29:09 — Vote tally: 60% “Yes,” 40% “No,” with divided rationales

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Overall Tone & Conclusions

• Candid, often blunt and sometimes humorous, mixing tough political realities with grassroots perspectives.
• The Democratic Party appears deeply divided: Harris remains a major contender, but passions—both supportive and resistant—run high, particularly around issues of race, gender, and party identity.
• Final Observations: While Harris leads in early polls and has vocal supporters, there is also significant skepticism among both voters and the donor class. The party faces a broader uncertainty about who can best unite and energize its coalition in the post-Biden era.

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Summary by Vox’s “Today, Explained” — “America, Actually”

Transcript

[Esteed Herndon]

I'm going to let you in on a little political secret, maybe the worst kept secret in national politics. Former Vice President Kamala Harris is considering a comeback and thinking about running for president in 2028.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I might.

[John Morgan]

I'm thinking about it.

[Esteed Herndon]

She went on a book tour through important Democratic primary states. She's chatting with Zora Mamdani, and she's dialing up pro Palestinian activists to gauge their level of interest. Most importantly, though, she's leading the polls because beating out big names like California's Gavin Newsom and New York's AOC. But I covered Harris first two presidential runs in 2019 and also in 2024. So I know that the idea of Harris the candidate is sometimes better than the reality. So I have a question. Does anybody actually want the Kamala Harris comeback to happen? I called up Democratic insiders to get their take.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I reached the voicemail of Meghan and

[Esteed Herndon]

I got the voicemail.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

The person you're trying to reach is not available.

[Esteed Herndon]

Let's try somebody.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

El, Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. At the tone, please record your message.

[Esteed Herndon]

Oh, you know, a lot of journalism is just voicemails. Oh, I'm getting a call back.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Hey, Seth.

[Esteed Herndon]

Hey, how are you? This Alex? I thought you were my Uber driver trying to get to the airport. I also talk to donors.

[John Morgan]

Everything that happened has left bad taste, and we need a fresh start.

[Esteed Herndon]

And of course, the voters.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Absolutely. I think Kamala Harris should run for president again.

[Esteed Herndon]

Kamala Harris, 2028. Yay or yikes. That's this week on America. Actually. Let's dig in. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report states that 85% of Americans think that getting help is wise, but 74% believe that society discourages them. So it's important to know that help is not only out there, but that it's easy to find. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served more than 6 million people globally. Don't let stigma get in the way of support. Start therapy now with better help and get 10% off when you sign up [e-mail] America. Actually, that's better. H E L p.com Americaactually did you know?

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[Esteed Herndon]

now on this show we like to think about American politics beyond the question of Donald Trump. And yes, that'll be shaped by voters opinions on things like AI regulation or foreign policy, but it'll also be shaped by individuals, AKA the people actually running for president in the next election. And while I usually think it's too early to talk about particular candidates, that feels like it's changing right about now. Gavin Newsom has basically declared himself a candidate for the 2028 election and AOC is the clear choice of the left should she run. But there's much less discussion about the person actually leading the 2028 polling, the former vice president. Virtually all of the recent press about Harris has actually been about the unease that Democrats feel about the prospect of her mounting another campaign. In fact, some of the stories read like Democrats are downright begging her not to jump into the race. That largely lines up with what I've heard from Democrats privately. So I decided to conduct a little experiment. Let's hear the case for Kamala Harris as described by people in her inner circle, and then let's put that case to the test with key groups that'll shape her decision and the presidential primary. So I started by reaching out to her spokesperson and got a list of surrogates that they said can provide their perspective. Here's what they said. 1. They excused the 2024 campaign as an anomaly.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Why do I think Harris lost in 2024? I think Jesus Christ would have lost in 2024 after the assassination attempt.

[Esteed Herndon]

And Kamala Harris had to run a shortened campaign after Joe Biden dropped out.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

The idea that she does not deserve the opportunity to put an infrastructure in place beyond the construct of 107 days I think is incredibly unfair.

[Esteed Herndon]

2. They argued that Harris is a strong candidate and there are groups of the Democratic base, particularly groups of women and black voters, who are excited by the prospect of her return.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

They adore her. They want her back 100%.

[Esteed Herndon]

Now that I've heard the logic of a Harris candidacy, I wanted to get a sense of her decision making. She's been non committal when it comes to the prospect of another presidential campaign. So what are the factors that actually go into that decision? I called up Jamal Simmons, her former communications director, who gave me a sense of her decision making process. Somebody's got to pay for the Buses. Somebody's got to pay for those TV ads. Who is actually going to come out and support the campaign, work on the campaign, volunteer? Who's the base? Who's the base of this party? But who's the infrastructure? Simmons said that Harris needs to ask herself two important questions. Number one, are the donors behind you? And number two, are the voters behind you? And so that gave me a helpful framework to think about the next stage of our experiment. Let's talk. Now that we've heard from the party, what about everybody else? Do voters actually want another dose of Kamala Harris? Let's find out. So we went to a Juneteenth picnic in North Charleston. Now, South Carolina is a crucial state for Democrats running for president. It's one of the first primary states, and it has a highly influential share of black voters. Okay, So I am going to write out a couple signs that give people a sense of what we're doing here so they know to talk to us. The first is going to say, podcast taping. Come chat with us. You know, something friendly to bring in the vibes. And then the second one will ask our question. Should Kamala Harris run for president again in 2028? We had our signs. A yes and a no bucket for people to vote. What's up, y'?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

All?

[Esteed Herndon]

You want to chat with us? Hey, y'.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

All.

[Esteed Herndon]

How are you? Do you want to vote in our poll?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Please?

[Esteed Herndon]

Pretty please? So here's the deal. It's a little experiment where you got to either vote yes, no, and tell us why, and so you can go ahead so we can look. We can not look. We can talk to you and keep a secret. It's up to you. Okay, See, that's why you don't. You're not going to look at my vote now. Now, I won't if you don't want me to.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

No.

[Esteed Herndon]

Let's all look. All right, so we going to go ahead and look. I'm just going to say burnt out big time.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esteed Herndon]

Now, why do you think that? Well, I mean, you know, you got Biden dropping out. You bring her in, you know, no primary, and she's like.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

She's.

[Esteed Herndon]

She's stacking up the minority cards a little bit too much. You know, if it didn't go for Hillary, it's definitely not going to go for Kamala. I think we found that out. I don't think there's any need for us to dip our toe in that. In that pool again. So am I hearing this? You think just, like, it's too hard For a woman, a black woman, to win? Absolutely.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

100.

[Esteed Herndon]

Just in general, not even elections, just in America. So you're saying because of that, you think that Democrats should nominate somebody else? Absolutely.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

For sure.

[Esteed Herndon]

Let's hit a black woman. What do you think about what he just said?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I think it's hard because, like, you want black women to succeed, you want to see them, but you have to play the game. And I don't think that Kamala can win the game.

[Esteed Herndon]

Going into election day last year, do you think she was already. Did you think, like, oh, a black woman can win? Or did it took after that? You're like, it took after that.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

It took after that. I think I was just as surprised as I think a lot of people were to think that it's not even like, oh, we're not as progressive. It's just like, oh, I think we're in a unique time in America where it's like, you don't need to be political to be a politician. You need to be popular. You need to be sellable. You need to be favorite. Like, you need to be a lot more.

[Esteed Herndon]

Isn't she. I mean, theoretically, she's too smart.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

She's too smart. I think that people can't relate to her. I think the people in Middle of Nowhere, I think it's really easy in a big city to compare yourself to other people looking around. But I've lived in rural Georgia, rural Ohio. I've lived in these rural areas where you drive and you see nothing but Republican, you see nothing but support, and it's like, how do you change the mind? And I don't think a person like Kamala, I think she's too far. I think, yeah, you need to consider someone, a Gavin Newsom, someone who looks a little bit more like what they're used to. To dip the toe in.

[Esteed Herndon]

So we're saying white guy again?

[John Morgan]

Yeah.

[Esteed Herndon]

Or white woman.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Like, you saw how that went the first time.

[Esteed Herndon]

I want to hear you, though. Are we saying white guy?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I'm saying it because I'm at a point now where I would rather have a competent white man than have another Trump run that back. And I think it's unfortunate. I think it's unfortunate. That's, like, where we are, but I think that we've, like, just progressed so far back to, like, it's almost like we have to start the game over again.

[Esteed Herndon]

I think the whole Democratic Party needs to step that game up. I mean, what he's doing in office right now, nobody's doing nothing. It's ridiculous. Any man, though, Tell us which. Which bucket you're going to vote in.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

I'm going to vote in the no bucket.

[Esteed Herndon]

You're voting the no bucket.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Why?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

Only just because before she, you know, ran for president and then also was the vice president with Joe Biden, she did a lot of stuff that was not. I don't know how to say it, I guess, beneficial to the black community, really. And a lot of times I feel like us black people, when we see someone that is of our color, they kind of, like, gravitate towards them because they feel as if they're going to do what's best for us. And then also, I care a lot about what's happening in Palestine, too, and I don't like her politics when it comes to that either. What she does is she tries to benefit off of the black community, too.

[Esteed Herndon]

What do you mean by that?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

As in, like, a lot of times, like before. Before, like, all this presidential stuff. I didn't really recall her acknowledging that she was kinfolk, if that makes sense.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

That makes sense to me, so.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

And now, because it's beneficial for her and she needs our vote, she's like, I'm black and I'm proud.

[Esteed Herndon]

All of a sudden you're saying, looking forward. That's not where you want to go next. Oh, the question is, should she run again?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

You know what?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

Yeah, I mean.

[Esteed Herndon]

Oh, good to you. All right, all right, all right, all right. So it seems like as if you had some problems last time, but you're not opposed to her running again.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

If she. Yeah, if she does a lot of things and she changes certain things and she comes and hit all these pointers, especially after, like, dealing with Trump's presidency, I feel like we're not gonna have that many candidates that's willing to do half the things that she's probably willing to do, especially in this upcoming election, because we see what's going on. I feel like JD Van is probably gonna try to run for president, and that's a. Heck, no.

[Esteed Herndon]

So, like, so you're saying if that's their two options, then you're kind of leaning more towards.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

I'll lean most definitely.

[Esteed Herndon]

So how about you put down what the things you would want her to see differently? Mention Palestine and things like that. When you're saying things that you felt weren't for the black community before, are you talking about, like, the criminal justice stuff and, like, all that?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

Yes, I understand it, but it's like, to me, I feel as if her target more so was us, if that makes sense.

[Esteed Herndon]

You're saying she was locking us up until she needed our vote?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

Yeah.

[Esteed Herndon]

Okay, let me cut through the chase. Yeah, that's what you say. All right. Did you vote for Kamala Harris in 2024?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

Yes, I did.

[Esteed Herndon]

You did. Now, do you think she should run for president again?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

Well, I don't see why not. I mean, I think she has the right to just like any other American citizens.

[Esteed Herndon]

Do you think it's a good idea for the Democratic Party?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

Well, I'll be totally honest with you. I don't think the Democratic Party right now knows its head from a hole in the ground. So they don't have anything to lose, really, by putting her up there, to be honest with you. Because, you know, I just basically think that right now I really don't see anyone else on the horizon that has the charisma to rally those who are opposed to the current regime right now.

[Esteed Herndon]

So we heard some people saying, like, they worry that a woman would have a tough time winning. They worry of that after last time, that they need somebody fresh like things like that. I wonder what you think about those type of things.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

Well, now, Joe Biden ran for president at least three or four times. Certainly was actually elected.

[Esteed Herndon]

Yep.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

Okay. Ronald Reagan ran about two times before he was reelected. So I really don't think that that's an accurate comparison to say that just because you lost once doesn't mean that you shouldn't run again.

[Esteed Herndon]

So, I mean, twice. You ran twice. Yeah, exactly.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

So, I mean, there's no real reason why she shouldn't.

[Esteed Herndon]

You want to join us?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yes, absolutely.

[Esteed Herndon]

Okay, so how about you said no way.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I don't think she should run again.

[Esteed Herndon]

Tell me why.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Because you haven't seen her since you ran.

[Esteed Herndon]

That's the only time you've seen her.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

When she was politicking.

[Esteed Herndon]

Ever since then, we heard nothing else from her. So why would she run again? We're in South Carolina because this is an all important state, all important question. And so people like you are the exact thoughts we want to hear.

[John Morgan]

So you.

[Esteed Herndon]

I see you pondering. Yeah, she should.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I wasn't pondering. I was just thinking about what I was going to say.

[Esteed Herndon]

Oh, okay. Okay. Now can you give us a reason why?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Because we need women. We need women. Women do the thing, right? And every time we get a chance to make a step, they push us back.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

But if all of us get in

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

together and vote for her, she can win and everything's going to change. We need to clean up the crap that's in there.

[Esteed Herndon]

Now, why do you Think it will go differently next time than went the last couple times.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Cuz she been through three times a charm.

[Esteed Herndon]

Third time's a charm.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Third time's a charm. There we go.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 2]

There we go.

[Esteed Herndon]

You're more than welcome. Thank you. You want to talk to us about what? What you voted and why? What, you. You think she should run again?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yes.

[Esteed Herndon]

Now, the question I've been asking all the people who vote yes is why do they think next time will go differently than last time? Because has opened up those eyes of those ding d. All right, so we're asking people if they think Kamala Harris should run for president again in 2028. We would love to know Yalls answers.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Esteed Herndon]

Why?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yeah, why? I think she had a really strong political standpoint. She had a strong ability. Yeah, she really did. Like, she told us everything that was going to happen in this presidency, like in this candidacy.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

I feel like she genuinely wants to help everybody. It's not like a side thing.

[Esteed Herndon]

You believe her?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yeah, Yeah, I think she's genuine.

[Esteed Herndon]

Why do you think she would have a better chance of being successful in 2028 than she wasn't in 2024?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Because now she can anticipate what goes wrong. Like now she's running,

[Esteed Herndon]

you're saying like it's. The circumstances are different.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Yeah, she can anticipate what goes wrong. She can build her campaign based off what went wrong and then she can build back and come back stronger. So I think she has a great.

[Esteed Herndon]

Some people are like, you know, we might, you know, Democrats might need a white guy, that they're worried that women can't win. They're worried that black women can't win. Is that a fear that you all have?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

No. Black women can do anything.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

I think people in this country have

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

gotten too, for sure, being outwardly against groups of people.

[Esteed Herndon]

You're saying there's a moment of recognition that Trump is kind of fumble, that you think that Harris can now come back and seize him. Is if I hear you all right.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

It's possible.

[Esteed Herndon]

Okay. In a nutshell, America is not ready for a woman to leave. I would love to see her take office, but I have to agree. I don't think the United States is ready right now to actually put a woman in the office. I don't think there'll never be a woman president in the United States. Now, wait, wait, wait. You can't just walk away on that. Tell us why. Because the system, if you look at the system, it was an old man from the beginning of time, certainly. But you know, I mean, as of 2007, there was only white guys for a whole period of time. Why can't that system change? Well, if we could get out and

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 4]

do the right thing.

[Esteed Herndon]

Yeah, that's the man thing. Doing the right thing. I would say Paris. Paris. Yeah. Well, I think she'd get a. I didn't think she got a fair shot. First go around wasn't enough time for her to get in, but she needed to. As far as getting her word out, as far as what she could actually implement, if anything at all, just, you know, talking to the people in the hole. You just think that she had too little bit of time last time. I'll ask her. What do you think I would be.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I would go over her again if she ran again.

[Esteed Herndon]

But do you want her to run again?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

I don't know if I want her subjected to all she had me subject.

[Esteed Herndon]

Yours seems to be more like you don't want to see her go through that again. Interesting. Now is that something, Is that a penalty of like racism and sexism you think would apply to any black woman running?

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Absolutely.

[Esteed Herndon]

Yeah. So this isn't Harris. Considering. No.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Okay, so I'm just gonna tell you straight up, I'm not a chump. And when you're dealing with the Ruth Uglicans, you have to. You really have to step up and

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

be ready to deal with them.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

And I think Gavin Newsom, he's ready to throw punches.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

He's not afraid of them.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

He won't back down, you know, from them. So I'm hoping that we can have if not Kamala, which I think she won't back down either. But if not Kamala. I just wanted to be someone with a backbone.

[Esteed Herndon]

So I'm put you on the spotlight. The election is primary is today, and you have to choose between Newsom and Harris.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 1]

Who you vote for. I'm still rolling with Harris.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

I'm rolling with Harris all the way.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Esteed Herndon]

Support for this show comes from Mint Mobile. When you're buying a new phone plan, transparency is everything. That's why Mint Mobile makes sure that you get your wireless plan with no gotcha, just high speed 5G data. And right now plans start at just $15 per month, even for unlimited. We have a colleague here at Vox who's on Mint and he swears by it. He said it saves him so much money and he's never run into an issue about where his data might be limited. To get your new wireless plan for just $15 per month, go to mintmobile.com ASTED that's mintmobile.com ESTAD cut your wireless bill to just $15 per month at mintmobile.com AST E D. That's it. There is no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required, $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when the network is busy and includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com for more details. All right, so I'm back in New York, and I'm getting ready to count the votes from South Carolina. But before we do that, there is one person I really wanted to talk to. Now, remember Kamala Harris. Former communications director Jamal Simmons told me that she needs the support of two groups in order to mount another campaign. She needs her base, who we talk to in South Carolina, and she needs the donors. And so to get a temperature check on that group, I decided to call up John Morgan.

[John Morgan]

I'm John Morgan, and I'm a lawyer in Florida.

[Esteed Herndon]

John's an influential mega donor. He first got involved in Democratic politics way back in Bill Clinton's years, donated,

[John Morgan]

and raised tens of millions of dollars.

[Esteed Herndon]

So I decided to start by asking him straight up, do you want Kamala Harris to run for president again?

[John Morgan]

I do not. I think that that everything associated with the Biden administration needs to be put to the side and moved on. I mean, Hillary Clinton came out saying that everything that happened was a disaster.

[Juneteenth Picnic Participant 3]

He made a terrible mistake for himself, his legacy, and for the country. He had said that he would not run again.

[John Morgan]

I just think that everything that happened has left bad taste, and we need a fresh start on that side of the aisle. And look, I understand how she's feeling because the books I read, I think she went to bed thinking she had a shot. You can imagine her feelings to have felt that she was that close. And look, she knows why. I mean, she had a short campaign. She was tied to Biden. I think it's time to turn the page. New book, new songbook. And I don't think the money would come to her and the votes wouldn't come.

[Esteed Herndon]

That was my second question. I hear your individual opinion, like, do you think from a donor community largely that there's any appetite for a Harris return?

[John Morgan]

I don't. And look, her natural base is going to be California, and she's going to be competing heavily with Gavin Newsom in California. So they're going to be kind of cannibalizing each other's donors.

[Esteed Herndon]

But are you hearing that privately? Because I'm sure there's conversations that you're having among the donor class that we're not hearing.

[John Morgan]

Well, I'm hearing it privately and I'm hearing it publicly. I mean, it's. The loss was so spectacular with so much money. I mean, it was not as bad as McGovern in 1972, but it was a shellacking.

[Esteed Herndon]

If people are privately saying that they don't think Harris should run, why do. Is there such reticence to say it publicly? When we talk to people we were calling, folks around, people I kind of know privately even might be skeptical, but there's a real concern about saying it out loud. If Democrats think her running again puts them in a worse position, why not just say it?

[John Morgan]

Well, Democrats are so worried about being labeled and saying something, right? Oh, I got you. But I think people think to say no to her, they could be labeled racist, and they don't want that because they're Democrats.

[Esteed Herndon]

I guess to play devil's advocate against even my last point, what would be so bad about her throwing her hat in there? Like, you know, should donors kind of have the right to preclude someone or kind of get ahead of their decision process in the ways that might not be where the electorate is?

[John Morgan]

No, absolutely not. Listen, when you have a robust primary with everybody taking real bullets and shooting real bullets, the strong usually survive. And so I'm not saying she should not run. I'm saying if you believe that's your destiny. I believe that the journey is the reward, not necessarily the win. And if I was thinking like her, I would never want to go to my grave wondering, what if? I mean, one of the things, you know, she's got to really be thinking about, and we all would if we were her. If she did throw her hat in the ring, and if the money didn't come, it would be very embarrassing.

[Esteed Herndon]

That's kind of where I was going to land is like, if you're. What you're saying is that you don't think the money would necessarily flow to her, she came back. Doesn't that create some sort of awkwardness? Like, if the former vice president was to run for president again and there's not an appetite from the highest levels of the party that would seem sort of unsustainable as a campaign?

[John Morgan]

It would be. And it would be very hurtful to her because she'll be going, look, she knows where all that money's coming from. And so her first calls would be to go back to all of that.

[Esteed Herndon]

Go back to those folks, go back to all that.

[John Morgan]

And. And guess what? She might be doing it now. If I was her, I would. I'd be ferreted out who's in and who's out. And I don't think that she'll jump in if she starts getting a lot of no's. But by no means should she just say, hey, the donor class doesn't want me. The donor class doesn't get to decide who the people get to decide. The donor class get to decide who they're going to support. And by the way, it's going to be about 15 people.

[Esteed Herndon]

If Kamala Harris does kind of end up getting in the race, would you sit out money wise, like, kind of. How would you play that if she were seeming to return, if Democrats looked like they were going to nominate her again?

[John Morgan]

I did not appreciate the anointing of Kamala Harris for president. I believed that there should have been a brief, aggressive primary to let the best person win. And I think that what Joe Biden did is he was pissed off. It was an F you to Nancy Pelosi. And in a fit of anger and maybe in a fit of, you know, days, he just made her the nominee, and everybody had to live with it.

[Esteed Herndon]

All right, my last question, John, is, okay, let's say if Harris isn't the standard bearer you're seeking for a more moderate liberal lane, who are the names that you're excited by? Who you think could occupy what the Biden administration was supposed to represent, but in a new, fresh form?

[John Morgan]

The ironic part about the Democratic Party is they have a long bench, a big bench. And I think there are people like Andy Beshear, who won three times in a very red state. I think Mark Kelly, who was attacked by the Trump administration and he fought back. I think West Moore and Maryland is like, you know, just, I mean, off the charts charismatic. I don't think you can count Whitmer out. Look, there are so many good ones. The Democratic Party has a lot of options.

[Esteed Herndon]

John, it kind of sounds like you're saying anyone but Harris.

[John Morgan]

I would not want her and I would not want Buttigieg.

[Esteed Herndon]

Just say anyone, but anyone tied to Biden.

[John Morgan]

Yes. The campaign needs to be called Bye Bye Biden. Like the. What was that? NSYNC or the Backstreet Boys?

[Esteed Herndon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. NSync. Bye bye, bye, Bye, bye, bye, bye Bye.

[John Morgan]

It needs to be Bye Bye Bye Biden and everybody associated with it, all the campaign managers, everybody that worked on the campaign, just go home, let's start fresh. Let's see what we can get.

[Esteed Herndon]

John, I appreciate your time. Thank you. And let's stay in touch as we keep going through the cycle.

[John Morgan]

All right. You're good at this.

[Esteed Herndon]

I appreciate it. Okay, so it's finally time to count the votes from our afternoon at the Juneteenth picnic in North Charleston. We asked dozens of people about whether they think Kamala Harris should run for president again or whether they would prefer a new option. She is intelligent and we need to bring hope back alive. We need more women in government. Yes, she should run. People are fed up with MAGA and Republicans, and as we tally up the votes, it seems like a firm victory for the yes corner, about 60, 40 split. Here are some of the reasons we heard from the NOS folks are still racist and sexist and you need a new face, fresh face ideas. A lot of use of the term fresh no. We're burnt out when you hear the reasons that people laid out in both the yes and the no buckets. There is a desire among some parts of the base, seemingly for her return. But at the same time, the skepticism represented by people like John was also clear in Charleston, which I think speaks to the uncertainty that is currently gripping the Democratic Party, even among the supposed frontrunner who is leading the polling at the top of their 2028 prospective candidates. They can't even agree whether it's a good idea whether that person gets in the race or not. America actually will be in your feeds with an interesting interview in politics or culture. You can of course also watch these episodes on the Vox YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube.com vox or click the link in the show notes. The best way to support this show is by becoming a Vox member. Members get a bonus segment on Patreon every week and they make our work possible. Go to vox.commembers to join. This show was edited by Kasha Bresalian, Fact checked by Sarah Schwepp and mixed by Shannon Mahoney. Christopher Snyder is our video editor and Khun Nui is our Senior Art director. Our executive producer is Christina Vallis and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Additional support from Miranda Kennedy, David Tadashore and Nisha Chatal. I'm Esteed Herndon and this is America. Actually.