Pope Leo excommunicates

Summary

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Today, Explained – “Pope Leo Excommunicates”

Date: July 9, 2026
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram & Noel King (Vox)
Key Guests:

• David Gibson (Director, Center on Religion and Culture, Fordham University)
• Claire Gingrebe (Vatican Reporter, Religion News Service)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into two seismic moves by Pope Leo, the first American Pope: his excommunication of a hardline Catholic sect, and the release of an unprecedented encyclical targeting big tech and artificial intelligence. The discussion explores why Pope Leo is making waves inside and outside the Church, the clash with American conservatism, and whether the Vatican’s “soft power” can influence the future of technology.

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1. The Excommunication of the SSPX

[02:28–12:27]

Background & Main Event

• One Year With Pope Leo: The episode opens with a recap of Pope Leo’s ascendance and tensions with American Catholic conservatives, notably Vice President JD Vance.
• Excommunication Details:
  • David Gibson (02:58): Explains that Pope Leo excommunicated the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX)—a traditionalist, right-wing Catholic group.
  • The catalyst: SSPX’s unauthorized ordination of four bishops in Acon, Switzerland on July 1st—a direct challenge to papal authority.
• Why It Matters:
  • The ordination of bishops is the Pope’s exclusive domain. “That’s like starting your own church. That’s a total red line.” — David Gibson (03:36)
  • Chain of Custody: Bishops are needed to ordain priests; breaking this line becomes a “schism.”

The SSPX and Its Ideology

• Cultural Chauvinism:
  • The group seeks a rollback to pre-Vatican II traditionalism—insisting on the Latin Mass, opposing modernization, and wanting to “restore the glories of old European white Catholicism.”
  • “It’s very much this kind of cultural, ethnic, and some would say racial chauvinism, that our culture, our people, that kind of blood and soil nationalism is the same dynamic in the church.” — David Gibson (06:23)
• Global vs. American Church:
  • The global church is increasingly diverse, while factions like SSPX see this as erosion of “their” church.

The Vatican’s Rightward Leeway

• No Enemies to the Right:
  • For decades, the Vatican tried to accommodate groups like SSPX while showing little tolerance to progressive Catholics.
  • “The import of this is these are accommodations they would never have given to people on the left wing… but they’re giving them to people on the right wing, on the far right wing.” — David Gibson (08:02)

Political Intersection

• JD Vance Interaction:
  • Rameswaram notes Vance “clapped back” at the Pope’s criticism of warfare, invoking “a thousand year tradition of just war theory.” (00:29)
• Embedding Grievance Politics:
  • The schism reflects a larger trend of Christian nationalism and grievances over lost status, mirroring secular right-wing populism.
  • “This kind of conservative oppositional mentality is much wider in the United States… will they try to make peace with Leo… or will they just persist here in the United States, this kind of right wing Catholicism, which is ascendant?” — David Gibson (11:02)

Memorable Quotes

• “You can’t go off and have your own special little church. So essentially they’re saying, okay, we’re more Catholic than the Pope.” — David Gibson (05:37)
• “They want a special carve out, a special bubble where the Pope says it’s okay and I’ll give you your own bishops. The Pope is saying, no…” — David Gibson (05:27)

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2. Pope Leo’s Encyclical on AI and Big Tech

[16:28–27:10]

Encyclical Explained

• What’s an Encyclical?
  • “It’s the highest form of magisterial document that a Pope can issue… a podium for the Pope to speak to the world.” — Claire Gingrebe (16:54)
• What Does It Say?
  • The central theme: reaffirming what it means to be human in the age of technology.
  • “Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen… awakening consciences and indicating paths forward for humanity.” — Papal language (18:11)
• Critique of Tech Utopianism:
  • Pope Leo calls out Silicon Valley’s visions of a future “without pain, without death, without disability” and asserts “it’s our limitation, it’s our humanity that make us human.” — Claire Gingrebe (18:31)

Human vs. Machine

• “No computational system, however sophisticated, can create a heart that gives itself or a conscience that discerns good from evil. Even when machines excel in efficiency, a human face… remains the center of our history.” — Papal language (18:44)
• Calls for recognition that “no algorithm can make war morally acceptable… AI does not remove the intrinsic inhumanity of conflict.” — Papal language (19:14)

Why Tackle AI First?

• Historical Parallels:
  • Pope Leo XIV chose his name to honor Leo XIII, who wrote “Rerum Novarum” during the Industrial Revolution.
  • “He thinks that the Church, and maybe the world, needs those kinds of reflections once more as we face a new industrial revolution.” — Claire Gingrebe (21:03)
• Audience:
  • Encyclical is aimed at both Catholics and “all people of goodwill,” and specifically engages Silicon Valley; Chris Oulet (Anthropic co-founder) was publicly invited to participate at the release. (22:19)

Silicon Valley Reaction

• Some Interest, Some Backlash:
  • While some tech leaders find value in these conversations with religion, others, like Peter Thiel, have lashed out, calling efforts to regulate AI “the Antichrist.” — Claire Gingrebe (23:25)
  • “It’s a split world over there.”

Soft Power of the Pope

• Global Influence:
  • The Vatican is small and lacks “hard” power but has global reach: “The Pope speaks to 1.4 billion people… That’s an exercise of soft power that the Vatican, the Holy See, has always exercised with a lot of intellectual intent.” — Claire Gingrebe (25:25)
• Moral Leadership in a Vacuum:
  • In an era lacking strong moral political leaders, the Pope’s message can “fill that space and… have an impact. Now, what that impact will be… who knows? But it offers an alternative. It’s better than nothing.” — Claire Gingrebe (26:30)

Memorable Moments

• The Pope deliberately uses the word “disarmed” for AI to awaken global consciences (18:11).
• Pope Leo’s direct outreach to Silicon Valley—inviting Anthropic’s co-founder to Rome (22:19).
• The blunt backlash from Silicon Valley conservatives: “Anyone who tried to impose limitations… are actually the Antichrist.” — Claire Gingrebe relating Peter Thiel’s position (23:48)

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3. Notable Quotes and Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker/Source | Quote | |-----------|----------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:36 | David Gibson | “That’s like starting your own church. That’s a total red line.” | | 05:37 | David Gibson | “So essentially they’re saying, okay, we’re more Catholic than the Pope.” | | 06:23 | David Gibson | “It’s very much this kind of… blood and soil nationalism is the same dynamic...” | | 08:02 | David Gibson | “The import of this is these are accommodations… to the far right wing.” | | 16:54 | Claire Gingrebe | “It’s the highest form of magisterial document that a Pope can issue.” | | 18:11 | Encyclical (read by commentator)| “Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed… words capable of awakening...” | | 18:31 | Claire Gingrebe | “It’s our limitation, it’s our humanity that make us human.” | | 19:14 | Encyclical (read by commentator)| "No algorithm can make war morally acceptable... violence is inevitable..." | | 21:03 | Claire Gingrebe | “…needs those kinds of reflections once more… a new industrial revolution.” | | 25:25 | Claire Gingrebe | "The Pope speaks to 1.4 billion people..." | | 26:30 | Claire Gingrebe | “It’s better than nothing.” |

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4. Episode Structure & Flow

• [00:02–02:28] Setting the stage: Political and ecclesiastical tensions; clip montage and context.
• [02:28–12:27] Interview with David Gibson: The schism, SSPX, and the wider battle for the Church’s soul.
• [16:28–27:10] Interview with Claire Gingrebe: The new encyclical on technology, what it means, and its impact.
• [27:10–End] Credits.

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5. Conclusions & Takeaways

• Pope Leo’s leadership marks a historic shift, challenging both the Catholic right and modern technocrats.
• The Church’s internal battles (like the SSPX schism) are deeply entangled with the culture wars shaping American and European politics.
• By issuing an encyclical on AI, Pope Leo situates the Vatican in current debates on technology and morality, aiming to fill a moral void.
• Though lacking hard power, the Vatican wields formidable influence via its global moral authority, especially in an era bereft of ethical consensus.

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Useful Timestamps for Further Reference

• The SSPX Schism Explained: 02:28–08:25
• Vatican II/Latin Mass Reference: 08:37–09:44
• Pope Leo’s Encyclical Unveiled: 16:38–19:30
• Encyclical's Historical Rationale: 20:14–21:28
• Soft Power and Vatican’s Global Reach: 25:25–26:30

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This episode brings to life the internal and external battles the Catholic Church is fighting under its first American pope—clashes with hard-right factions at home, and with the digital titans reshaping the world.

Transcript

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

It's been a little over a year since the first ever American became Pope and it's been about a year and a half since the second ever Catholic Vice President of the United States was sworn into office. Pope Leo and JD Vance aren't officially beefing, but there's definitely tension. The Pope spoke out against the Iran war.

[Religious Commentator or Catholic Theologian]

God does not bless any conflict. Anyone who is a disciple of Christ is never on the side of those who once wielded the sword and today

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

drop bombs and JD Vance clap back saying when the Pope says God is never on the side of those who wield the sword. There is more than a thousand year tradition of just war theory.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

Okay?

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

What followed was a not insignificant contingent of Catholics and non Catholics alike saying Pope Leo should excommunicate J.D. vance. It's probably not gonna happen, but the Chicago Pope just kicked a bunch of conservatives out of the Catholic Church. This is a thing he does now on Today Explained from Vox.

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[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

Support for this show today comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter with deep research. Claude's research capabilities go way deeper than basic web search comprehensive, reliable analysis with proper citations, turning hours of research into minutes for problems worth solving. You can get started with Claude at Claude AI Today Explained. That's Claude AI Today explained.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

David gibson common spelling g I b s o n like the guitar. Director of the center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University, the Jesuit University

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

of New York, Pope Leo Bob to his friends did something dramatic last week. It's a bit of a throwback for people who maybe missed it with the 4th of July weekend. Tell us what Happened?

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

Well, basically the Pope excommunicated a bunch of traditionalist, super right wing, Latin mass, high church types who actually, he would say they excommunicated themselves. It's this group, it's called the Society of St. Pius X. They ordained four bishops. And today we take exceptional means that are proportionate to the needs of the Church. Today, the Catholic Church is an apostolic church. It's all about chain of custody. You've got to have. You can't break the chain. You need bishops to ordain priests. You need to keep bishops going. And the thing you cannot do, the red line in the Catholic Church is the Pope is the one who ordains bishops. He says you can ordain a bishop. You can't go ordain a bishop on your own. That's like starting your own church church. That's a total red line. They said, no, we need this. July 1st in Acon, Switzerland, beautiful in the mountains. They gathered this SSPX and they ordained these four bishops. That was a schism. They accuse us of not respecting him. It's precisely because we love the Pope as the Vicar of Christ,

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

as the

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

head of the Church. We don't want to see the Pope humiliated anymore. Look, this group, it's really a tiny, tiny group. They're located in the West. It's all about this restoring Christendom, restoring the glories of old European white Catholicism. Basically, this group wants a special carve out. They want to be able to celebrate the Mass the way it was before 1962 or 1955, depending on when you make the cutoff.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

We have to be ready to pay whatever the price to serve the Church. And whatever the sacrifices God asks of

[Religious Commentator or Catholic Theologian]

us,

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Even if it means we are treated as rebels.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

They want a special carve out, a special bubble where the Pope says it's okay and I'll give you your own bishops. The Pope is saying, no, you can't do that. You can't go off and have your own special little church. So essentially they're saying, okay, we're more Catholic than the Pope.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

You mentioned that this group, the Society of St. Pius X that has now at least partly been excommunicated by Pope Leo, wanted to keep the Church to some degree European. This is in the wake of what people thought could have been, you know, the first Asian Pope, the first African Pope. Is this group a little kind of like, I don't know, like white racist?

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

They're certainly culturally chauvinistic, to put it mildly. Look, I like smells and bells. I like you know, a lot of the European Catholicism. But I've traveled around the world with popes. I've seen popes celebrate Mass in a dusty refugee camp in Africa. I've seen mass celebrated in St. Peter's Basilica with the incense and the whole deal. It's beautiful. It's the Mass wherever you are. It's diversity. These folks don't like that. It's very much this kind of cultural, ethnic, and some would say racial chauvinism, that our culture, our people, that kind of blood and soil nationalism is the same dynamic in the church. It's kind of blood and soil and cultural Catholicism. It makes no sense from a Catholic perspective. You're baptized Catholic, you're raised Catholic, you are Catholic. Anybody is Catholic, whether you're in Indonesia or Indiana. But these folks don't see it that way. That's what they're about. They're very small, but they're located and concentrated in North America and in Western Europe. And they have influence and they have money and they have visibility. So this. That's really why it's a big story. They also have an amen corner, an amen corner in the. So to speak. The Vatican for decades has bent over backwards to try to accommodate these folks because it's kind of a no enemies to the right dynamic within the Catholic Church. And here are these folks who've been given everything and they still went and split.

[Reader of Vatican II Document or Church Official]

The.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

The import of this is that these are accommodations they would never have given to people on the left wing, on the progressive wing, but they're giving them to people on the right wing, on the far right wing. And that they still thumb their nose at the Pope is what makes this so important.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

So this small but powerful sect of the Catholic Church thumbs its nose at Pope Leo. Why it picks a fight with the Pope.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

Well, there are two reasons. One is to go down the liturgical rabbit hole of all of this arcana about the Mass and the Latin Mass. And can you change it and can you not?

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

This is. They want to revisit the Vatican II Council where the church modernized like 60 years ago.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

Yes, exactly. In the 1960s. And they did things like lifting the anathemas on Protestantism, engaging in, you know, endorsing religious freedom, accepting the division between chur state, lifting the teachings of contempt against Jews.

[Reader of Vatican II Document or Church Official]

The right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person, as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God. It is very important, especially where a pluralistic society prevails, that there be a correct notion of the relationship between the political community and the church. Although the church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.

[David Gibson (Director of the Center on Religion and Culture at Fordham University)]

But it also gets to what is really going on. It's not about the Latin Mass. They love to argue about that stuff. The bigger dynamics that I wanted to get to in a New York Times op ed I wrote about this are that these really channel the same dynamics we're seeing in the secular world, in the political world of this kind of Christian nationalism, this nationalist populism where it's this sort of civilizational fight to retain the privilege and position mainly of white European folks who see America, the United States being of old being taken away from them, the France or the England, the glories of empire, of the past being taken away what is rightfully ours. That kind of resentment is what they are using as a wedge issue. That's really their platform of grievance against what they perceive as a loss of status. If you're looking at the global church, these folks are already outliers. They've already lost when Pope Leo was elected. They lost in a global sense, in the American sense, in the smaller kind of Western sense. The jury is still out because they are much larger. This kind of conservative oppositional mentality is much wider in the United States. And will that triumph? Will they try to make peace with Leo, the first American Pope? Will they recognize that he could be around for 20 years and we better take a step back, take a beat, otherwise we'll be irrelevant or you know, will they just persist here in the United States, this kind of right wing Catholicism, which is ascendant. J.D. vance, who wouldn't know a Latin Mass from what, anything, wouldn't care about it necessarily, but he does share the, you know, he's a guy who tells the Pope to stay in his lane on theology. You know, I mean, it's that kind of mentality that we're really talking about, which is why the stakes really are high in this whole kind of battle about the schism. The issue is whether this conservative Catholicism remains ascendant and essentially isolates the American Church even further in the global church. That would be a tragedy.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

Alright.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

That's all we have to say about the conservative sect that picked a fight with the Pope. But when Today Explained is back, we're going to tell you about a big fight the Pope picked. Support for the show comes from Mint Mobile. There are some things in your life you don't want to be transparent, like your swimsuit or your search history.

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[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

Support for the show today comes from anthropic. In case you were wondering who's behind Claude, that's anthropic. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop it. Good enough. Is that you? It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Have you been looking for that? Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter with deep research. Claude's research capabilities go way deeper than basic web search. Comprehensive, reliable analysis with proper citations. Turning hours of research into minutes. We love a proper citation, don't we? Plus you can connect Claude to your professional tools like GitHub, Jira, HubSpot, Notion, Google Workspace and watch it become your command center with context from all your work. That means Claude has context from your calendar, emails and all of your Go to tools for problems worth solving. Get started with Claude AI todayexplained that's Claude AI todayexplained.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

When you call my name, it's like Today Explained.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

Chicago Pope dropped his first ever encyclical about a month ago and it went after big tech and AI. We asked Claire Jengreve from Religion News Service on the show to tell you about it, starting with what is an encyclical?

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

An encyclical is essentially the highest form of magisterial document that a Pope can issue. It has complete papal authority and it's used by Popes when they really want to send a strong message across. Used to be addressed only to Catholics, but now they tend to be addressed to all people of goodwill. So it's really a podium for the Pope to speak to the world. So the main takeaway is definitely the idea of trying to offer what the Church in its thousand year old history has figured out to be what it means to be human.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

At key moments in history, the Church is called to decipher the new things in the light of the Gospel and the dignity of the human being.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

It's presenting all of these things that the Church believes make human beings human and why we should treasure that. Especially in a time where things are becoming more abstract and technological and certain philosophies in Silicon Valley want to sell us a world that is without pain, without death, without disability, or without any sort of limitation.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen because this moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences, and indicating paths forward for humanity.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

And the Pope is trying to send a message to say, hey Actually, it's our limitation. It's our humanity that make us human. And you shouldn't buy anything that wants to make a future that is not human.

[Religious Commentator or Catholic Theologian]

No computational system, however sophisticated, can create a heart that gives itself or a conscience that discerns good from evil. Even when machines excel in efficiency, a human face that asks to be gazed upon remains the center of our history.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

And he uses that in a lot of different sections, from war and peace to how should tech relate to moral issues.

[Religious Commentator or Catholic Theologian]

No algorithm can make war morally acceptable. AI does not remove the intrinsic inhumanity of conflict in this way. It will accustom us to the idea that violence is inevitable and needs only to be optimized.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

And it offers us this knowledge that the Catholic Church, just like many religions, have. Not just for techxx, but anyone who wants to have a say in the future of this technology.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

He could have written about anything in this first encyclical. He could have written about humanitarian aid to the poor. He certainly could have written about immigration, which is something he's clearly passionate about. He could have written about his vision for the Catholic Church, but instead he wrote about technology. That is a big swing for a brand new Pope. Why take it so early in his papacy?

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

Yeah, it's interesting, right? But he sort of had been hinting at this straight off the bat when he was elected, he chose the name Leo XIV to honor his predecessor, Leo xiii, who lived at the height of the Industrial Revolution. And that pope had written an encyclical as well. It was called Rerum Navarum, a Latin word which essentially means on new things.

[Religious Commentator or Catholic Theologian]

Right.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

And it wanted to address the tensions and the problems that had to do with the Industrial Revolution at that time.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

He understood that the Church could not remain distant within an epochal turning point menacing human dignity. The encyclical Rerum Novarum spoke its evangelical and social word about new things underway.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

And it offered the idea that the Catholic Church supports rights of workers and paid time off and the minimum wage and the responsibility of capitalist systems toward workers and regular people. And by choosing that name, Leo was saying that he thinks that the Church, and maybe the world, needs those kinds of reflections once more. As we face a new industrial revolution

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

today, we find ourselves facing a transformation of similar magnitude with perhaps even greater consequences.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

Who is he writing this for? I mean, I'm guessing your average Catholic doesn't even read a papal encyclical, let alone a non Catholic. But do Silicon Valley tech leaders read a papal encyclical?

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

The Pope surely hopes that Catholics will read this encyclical. And there's a reason to believe some of them will. But you're right, the majority probably won't. Maybe they'll get a few tidbits here and there for what the media says about the document itself. But you could tell that the Pope really wanted that message to come across. And why is that? You know, and one of the ways we see that is that he invited Chris Oulet, the co founder of Anthropic, to sit next to him as he presented this encyclical in a special way.

[Guest or Panelist (possibly a religious scholar or commentator)]

I'd like to thank Mr. Ola for accepting our invitation in turn, in the name of the Church, I accept your invitation to walk together, to listen and to speak, and together to find the way for humanity in this time of artificial intelligence.

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

In conversations we at Anthropic have had with faith leaders and cultural leaders, we have found one shared and deeply held conviction. If this technology is coming, it must go well for our common home and for the children to come. So I think that was a clear way for this Pontiff to say, hey, Silicon Valley, I've got one of yours over here who you take really seriously. It definitely started a conversation.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

Tell us about the conversation. I mean, it's been, I think, a bit over a month since this encyclical dropped. Was it controversial? Did it affect any change? Are people responding?

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

Some people don't think that the Vatican should associate itself so closely with Silicon Valley. But one thing to keep in mind is that this conversation has actually been happening since Pope Francis. I have been reporting on the, you know, closed door meetings called the Minerva Dialogues between major Silicon Valley execs and Vatican representatives about what AI could do about AGI, about the possibility, they said, to be creating a conscious that is not unlike that of angels. As this technology treads into unclear and more unknown paths. I found that a lot of these experts and programmers are turning to religion to ask some fundamental questions about soul and consciousness and what makes something alive. And the Church and many other religions have a lot to offer. And since the encyclical, some people in Silicon Valley are interested. Now, I don't know if you read the New York Times story that says that others are definitely not. And that's for sure, some of the people, like Peter Thiel, who came to Rome shortly before the document was actually released to posit that anyone who tried to impose limitations on artificial intelligence or applying any sort of guidelines that are moral or not to its development, are actually the Antichrist. So it's a split world over there.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

And if it comes to that, if AI is indeed used in a way that the Pope disapproves of, does he have real power? Can he flex in a way that, you know, makes a meaningful difference? It feels like the encyclical isn't that it's him laying out his ideology on tech. But when push comes to shove, what can Pope Leo really do?

[Claire Gingrebe (Religion News Service Vatican reporter)]

I think the answer to that question is a little nuanced. The Vatican is a small city state. It has an army. It's laughable. It doesn't impose tariffs, it doesn't have economic power. It's the tiniest state on the planet. But the Pope speaks to 1.4 billion people in the world. Church representatives, from catechists to missionaries to priests to nuns are all over the world. That's without mentioning Catholic universities and elementary schools. And they're distributed in so many places throughout the globe. And that's an exercise of soft power that the Vatican, the Holy See, I should say, has always exercised with a lot of intellectual intent. And the question is perhaps in a moment that many consider to be of a moral vacuum in terms of our political leaders, where no one seems to be speaking out for the poor and the vulnerable, or for peace, which has become somewhat controversial term, ironically, in our modern day Pope Leo's voice can resonate, it can fill that space and it can have an impact. Now, what that impact will be and if it will be able to prevent some of the things happening with AI, who knows? But it offers an alternative, right? It's better than nothing.

[Host (likely a Vox Today Explained host)]

That was Claire Gingrebe who covers the Vatican [e-mail] earlier in the show you heard from David Gibson, who does not play guitar. Ariana Spuru produced today. Aman Al Saadi edited. Gabriel Donatov was on Dogma and David Tadashore was in the choir. Amshan Ramaswam. The rest of the clergy includes Noel King, Kelly Wessinger, Abhishai Artsy, Danielle Hewitt, Heidi Mwogdi, Peter Balinon Rosen, Patrick Boyd, Dustin De Soto and Miles Bryan. Our deputy EP is Jolie Myers and our regular EP is Miranda Kennedy. We use music by Breakmaster. Cylinder Today Explained is distributed by wnic. The show is a part of the Vox Media podcast network. For more shows, check out podcast.voxmedia.com you can listen to this one ad free by signing [e-mail] members. One of those other shows I should mention is America. Actually, this week our pal Estad is looking at what happened to Graham Plattner out there in Maine and what happens next. In that state's ever important Senate race. Check it out.