Why Israel won’t stop

Summary

Today, Explained – "Why Israel Won’t Stop"

Date: June 4, 2026
Hosts: Noel King & Sean Rameswaram (Vox)
Featured Guests: Mark Caputo (Axios), Daniel Levy (U.S. Middle East Project)

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles both the immediate and underlying reasons for Israel's continued military operations in Lebanon and the broader region, even amidst attempts at ceasefire and U.S. pressure. The focus shifts from recent political tensions between U.S. President Donald Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, toward a deep dive into the longstanding ideological and practical motives—especially the concept known as the "Greater Israel Project"—that inform Israeli policy and the persistent nature of the conflict.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Developments: Ceasefire, Escalation, and Bulging Tensions

• Ceasefire Announced, But Not Fully Observed
  • Despite a U.S.-backed ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, Israel continues targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon (00:01–00:11).
• Trump-Netanyahu Friction
  • President Trump is openly frustrated with Netanyahu for expanding the conflict, leading to an expletive-laden phone call where Trump accused Netanyahu of being "fucking crazy" and "saving [his] ass" (04:00–04:06).
  • Congress's irritation at Trump for failing to end U.S. involvement culminated in a vote demanding a drawdown of forces unless Congress approves otherwise (00:28–00:45).
  • Trump stands by his tough talk: "I wouldn't say angry. I was a little bit perturbed at his constantly fighting with Lebanon. You know, at some point I said, maybe we got to stop this." — Trump, paraphrased by Mark Caputo (04:18–04:34).

2. Political Dynamics & Fallout

• U.S.-Israel Alliance Has Limits
  • Caputo describes the relationship as "brotherly," with flashpoints of conflict but foundational alignment, noting Trump's periodic outbursts when Netanyahu is perceived as jeopardizing American interests (04:34–05:11).
• Domestic Political Costs
  • Trump insists midterm elections are not motivating his stance: "They thought they were going to outweigh me. You know, we'll outweigh him. He's got the midterms. I don't care about the midterms." — paraphrased Trump (07:49–07:54).
  • The war, alongside Trump's domestic policies, is hurting the Republican Party, especially in farm states where trade and fuel costs are sore points (07:54–09:02).

3. Explaining the "Greater Israel Project"

• Israel’s Unfixed Borders & Historical Roots
  • Daniel Levy explains that Israel’s borders are defined only with Egypt and Jordan; its territories elsewhere remain open for dispute and expansion (14:43–15:44).
  • The Greater Israel Project has roots in Zionist ideology, especially the "revisionist" strand represented by politicians like Zev Jabotinsky, aiming beyond today’s recognized boundaries—sometimes from "the Nile to the Euphrates" (16:10–16:22).
• From Partition to Today
  • Levy: Israel was born out of a UN partition granting it 55% of the land, but expanded to 78% after the 1948 war and expelled Palestinians—a moment called the Nakba. Since 1967, Israel has occupied the full territory, while Palestinians have accepted a possible mini-state on 22% of the land (16:22–17:41).
• No Single Blueprint, But Strategic Reality
  • No secret “Greater Israel” master plan; rather, all Israeli governments since 1967, left or right, have incrementally built settlements in occupied Palestinian territories, with the current coalition’s agreement explicitly stating the “Jewish people have the exclusive and inalienable right to all of the land of Israel” (18:10–18:53).

4. Expansionist Ideologies Within Israel’s Leadership

• Current Government’s Outspoken Advocates
  • Ministers Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir are examples of high-level politicians who openly push for settlements as far as Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria:
    • "Smotrich says right to Damascus." — Daniel Levy (18:54–19:30)
  • Even more moderate Israelis, while not always supporting expansion, largely oppose sacrificing territory for a Palestinian state (19:43–20:20).

5. American Support and External Factors

• U.S. Complicity and Evangelical Backing
  • U.S. administrations have rarely enforced any limits on settlement expansion.
  • Ambassador Huckabee represents evangelical, pro-expansion sentiment: “It would be fine if they took it all.” (20:47–20:58)
• U.S. as Enabler, Not Instigator
  • The perception that Trump was manipulated into war by Netanyahu is refuted: Trump acted out of his own beliefs and U.S. intelligence, not purely Israeli lobbying (09:14–10:19).

6. Power Projection and Regional Hegemony as the New "Greater Israel"

• Beyond Borders: A Quest for Dominance
  • The Greater Israel Project is not only territorial but also about regional dominance, exercising power over Iran and the Gulf, and integrating these aims into Israeli strategy:
    • “Thinking of Israel as trying to maximally dominate this region of the world… Israel needs to have an Iran that is domesticated, ideally a collapsing, chaotic state.” — Daniel Levy (21:56–23:33)
  • Netanyahu promotes Israel as a regional superpower, even suggesting projects like rerouting Gulf oil pipelines to Israel (23:33–24:03):
    • "Just have oil pipelines going west through the Arabian Peninsula right up to Israel… you’ve just done away with the choke points forever." — Benjamin Netanyahu (23:51–24:03)

7. Risks of Overreach and the Prospect of Blowback

• Alienation from Allies
  • The danger: Israel’s continued aggression and expansionism may provoke major backlash not just from regional actors, but also from long-time Western allies (24:18–24:55).
  • Gulf states, already unsettled, are wary of Israel dragging the U.S. into wars against their interests.
  • The public’s anger and shifting regional alignment threaten Israel’s security and standing, yet a non-expansionist vision for Israel has yet to emerge (24:55–27:08):
    • "So many people are saying ideologically, this expansionist vision—and, practically speaking, a small country with a limited population being able to carry it out—the anger that it is generating, all of that could blow up in our face in quite devastating ways." — Daniel Levy (26:25–27:04)
    • "This is a Country Without Borders." — Daniel Levy (27:08)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [04:00]: “Trump said, Netanyahu, you're fucking crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this.” — Mark Caputo, quoting sources
• [07:49]: “They thought they were going to outweigh me. You know, we'll outweigh him. He's got the midterms. I don't care about the midterms.” — Mark Caputo, paraphrasing Trump
• [16:22]: “When Israel is established… Israel then expands its territory immediately from 55 to 78%. It kicks out most of the Palestinian population. That's known as the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe.” — Daniel Levy
• [18:10]: "Every single Israeli government since Israel took the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1967... has built and expanded those settlements."
• [23:33]: "Our threats come and go, but when we become a regional superpower, and in many respects a global superpower, we have the power to push away threats and ensure our future." — Benjamin Netanyahu
• [24:55]: "The potential downside is devastating potentially... so many people are saying ideologically, this expansionist vision... all of that could blow up in our face in quite devastating ways." — Daniel Levy

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Notable Timestamps

• 00:01–00:45: Ceasefire, U.S. and Congressional responses, Trump-Netanyahu spat.
• 02:00–09:02: Mark Caputo details Trump-Netanyahu relations, U.S. political context.
• 14:30–21:56: Daniel Levy explains origins, reality, and ideology of the Greater Israel Project.
• 21:56–24:18: The shift from territorial expansion to regional hegemony.
• 24:18–27:08: Risks of overreach, blowback, and Israel's uncertain future.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a multi-layered exploration of why Israel continues military interventions and expansionist policies despite increasing global and even American frustration. It clarifies that, beneath current events and diplomatic spats, is a long-running and deeply embedded strategy—endorsed across much of Israel’s political spectrum and rarely challenged by the U.S.—to secure its position, expand its influence, and project power in the region, even at significant risk. The prospects for change appear slim, as alternatives to expansionism have little traction within Israeli politics.

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Transcript

[Noel King]

Israel and Lebanon agreed to a U S backed ceasefire last night. A ceasefire that part of the world

[Sam]

ceasefires when you're shooting in a more moderate manner.

[Noel King]

This morning, Israel admitted it is still targeting Hezbollah in Lebanon. So point for Donald Trump maybe. Though Trump said yesterday Hezbollah had agreed to stop shooting at Israel.

[Sam]

We actually spoke with Hezbollah for the first time ever. We didn't know they spoke.

[Noel King]

Trump is growing frustrated with Benjamin Netanyahu. He copped to cussing him out in a phone call on Monday. Congress is growing frustrated with Trump. The House voted yesterday to demand that the president withdraw US Forces from the region or get congressional approval.

[Sam]

Days are 215 and the nays are 208.

[Noel King]

Underpinning all of this, the question of what Israel is actually trying to do here today on Today explained from Fox, the Greater Israel Project, what it is and why it means Israel doesn't want to stop.

[Skylar Diggins]

What's up, y'?

[Sam]

All?

[Skylar Diggins]

I'm Skylar Diggins, seven time WNBA all star, Olympic gold medalist and mom.

[Noel King]

And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom.

[Skylar Diggins]

And this is AM mom, a community for athletes, game changers and moms of all kinds dropping May 14th. Tap in with us.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Megan Rapinoe. Here this week is our last regular episode of A Touch More. Before I kick off a limited series, A Touch More the Beautiful Game, a special series for the World cup featuring in depth interviews with some of soccer's biggest stars. But for this week, we are closing out the era with a special compilation episode featuring our absolute favorite moments and themes from our last 90 episodes of a Touch More. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Daniel Levy]

This is TODAY explained.

[Mark Caputo]

Mark Caputo. I'm a senior political writer and White House correspondent for Axios.

[Noel King]

And you've been writing about something that happened between President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday. What happened? Exactly what went down over the weekend?

[Mark Caputo]

President Trump was hopeful that he was close to a deal, a peace deal with Iran. Truth social media talks are continuing at

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Segment)]

a rapid pace with the Islamic Republic of Iran. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[Mark Caputo]

President Donald J. Trump and behind the scenes, according to some of our administration sources, Benjamin Netanyahu. Prime Minister Netanyahu had been advocating to have Lebanon as sort of part of the peace deal, but President Trump thought that that was sort of too many moving parts. Next thing everyone knows, on Sunday, Netanyahu unleashes a pretty ferocious attack on Hezbollah and Lebanon.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister announced that they had ordered the military to strike Beirut.

[Noel King]

The Israeli military said it launched its heaviest ever strikes across Lebanon, hitting 100 targets in just 10 minutes alone.

[Daniel Levy]

It's unclear what the goal of this

[Claire White]

expansion is going to be, but attacks have certainly increased since a nominal ceasefire

[Daniel Levy]

between Israel and Lebanon went to effect in April 17th.

[Mark Caputo]

And Iran then says, we're done talking about a peace deal. You know, it's this sort of a little bit of Kabuki that they do. And Trump got very angry, picked up the phone, and according to our sources, really lit in to Prime Minister Netanyahu. He says, you know, what the fuck are you doing? We were told. Trump said, netanyahu, you're fucking crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everybody hates you now. Everybody hates Israel because of this. And Trump also had told Netanyahu that, you just gotta stop. You've gotta stop. After that call, Netanyahu did signal he was going to scale it back a little, but not completely. And now there's allegedly some sort of detente.

[Noel King]

All right, so President Trump was asked about this in a New York Post podcast on Wednesday. Did you say it? He says, yeah, I did. How exactly did the President characterize what happened to in that meeting?

[Mark Caputo]

Well, he said he wasn't angry, but he was a little bit perturbed.

[Sam]

I wouldn't say angry. I was a little bit perturbed at his constantly fighting with Lebanon. You know, at some point, I said, maybe we got to stop this.

[Mark Caputo]

So to the degree he was, you know, disputing our reporting, it was the description of how mad he was. Understand that Trump and Netanyahu, as I like to say, they have sort of a brotherly relationship between the two of them. But sometimes brothers fight, and periodically they've had these clashes. Usually it's Trump laying into Netanyahu because he thinks Netanyahu is just too aggressive a little too often and pushes the envelope too much. Now, Netanyahu and his people think the prime minister has to advocate and defend and attack enemies vociferously on behalf of Israel, because if he doesn't, then no one will.

[Noel King]

Why has the relationship between Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu deteriorated?

[Mark Caputo]

I don't want to say it's deteriorated. We don't know, because there have been times where this has happened in the past. For instance, last year, Netanyahu unleashed an assault on Syria, and Trump sort of lit into him over that. We wrote about that at Axios. And then when Trump was close to getting the Gaza peace deal, which he eventually did do, he had also sort of chastised Netanyahu for standing in the way of a good agreement, letting sort of the perfect be the enemy of the good. But underlying all of this is a belief by a number of people in US Government, in the administration writ large, that there are convergences of interests. There are, there's an alignment of interests between America and Israel on some things, and there are divergences. There are, there are times when the interests of the two nations start to come apart. And there are some in the administration who believe that Netanyahu ultimately either doesn't want peace or doesn't want peace enough and therefore has sort of a perverse incentive to keep the conflict going. And to be clear, Hezbollah is a terrorist group. It is financed by Iran. It doesn't have a lot of interest in keeping the peace. It's all very sort of spy versus spy and dysfunction. I think I had said somewhere else that this is. It's sort of like a chessboard where the two players are also shooting at each other with high powered weaponry, missiles, drones and other sorts of explosives and high impact ordinance.

[Noel King]

Polling shows us that Americans are frustrated with this war in Iran and with the administration's support of Israel, both of those things that could have consequences in, in the midterms. Do we think that at this point that is motivating President Trump? It would be motivating an ordinary president, I think. But President Trump can be different sometimes.

[Mark Caputo]

You know, President Trump is not always a reliable narrator, let's charitably describe it that way. But there are times where he is just brutally honest in a way that no politician is. And when he was asked a variant of the question that you just posed about whether the political considerations of looming midterms are starting to impact his talks with Iran, he said, no, I'm not thinking about that.

[Sam]

They thought they were going to outweigh me. You know, we'll outweigh him. He's got the midterms. I don't care about the midterms.

[Mark Caputo]

Look what happened. If you look at everything he's done, that's probably true now, as a result of him not doing that, things are much rougher on the Republicans. And it doesn't appear as if things are going to markedly improve between now, you know, early June and November. So, yes, this is a drag on Republicans. Gas prices don't show much signs of decreasing. If you look at sort of the more the granular you zoom In a bit more in different places in the nation. Iowa is going to have a more contested US Senate race perhaps than otherwise thought. Iowa, a red state, but it's a farm state. Not only are they grappling with the costs of higher fuel, but higher fertilizer prices and trade policies, restrictions, trade policies by President Trump that have also made farming and selling farming products more complicated. So there are these very real effects of both the war and Donald Trump's policies writ large that appear to be a drag on the president's party.

[Noel King]

It's impossible to know if President Trump is actually at a breaking point with Benjamin Netanyahu, but if he were, it would be a very big deal. What would it look like if President Trump simply said, enough, enough of this?

[Mark Caputo]

I'll admit I would find that difficult to see because one of the myths, I think, about President Trump going into this war that is said by some people, some anti Semites and some not anti Semites, is that Trump was basically tricked into it by a crafty Netanyahu. That's not the case. Trump went into this of his own accord and of his own beliefs. Now, did Netanyahu and the Israeli intelligence services play a role in that? Sure. Were they part of the discussions? Absolutely. But just as Trump went in there of his own accord and based on his own beliefs and the intelligence that is produced by the US intel agencies, Trump is not pulling out because of Netanyahu. The relationship between the two, two of them is close, and it's pretty strong and pretty deep at the same time. Trump does not hesitate to let loose on Netanyahu periodically when he feels that the Israeli prime minister has gone too far. And that's just sort of what you saw over this weekend.

[Noel King]

Mark Caputo of Axios. Coming up, why Israel won't stop. We're going to explain something called the Greater Israel Project.

[Podcast Host (Sponsor Segment)]

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[Claire White]

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[Skylar Diggins]

You are listening to today, explained

[Noel King]

Daniel Levy, heads up the US Middle East Project. Daniel was an Israeli negotiator during the oslo Accords in 90s and early aughts and as such he spent a lot of time thinking about Israel's borders.

[Daniel Levy]

First of all, unusually, Israel does not have defined borders. It has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. So those borders are actually defined the Egyptian and the Jordanian border with Israel. But when it comes to Syria, for instance, Israel annexed illegally Syrian territory after the 1973 war, after the 67 war, later on, and it's against the Golan. So that border is in dispute with Lebanon. Israel is right now, as people will know, deep inside Lebanese territory. But it normally focuses on Greater Israel. So that's everything that is recognized as Israel today, plus the west bank, plus Gaza. But Greater Israel means different things to different people. So right from the early days of design this project, there were those who said, well, if we're going to Zion, then this is the biblical land of Israel. So that stretches from, you may have heard the term the Nile to the Euphrates. Not only does that cover all of Israeli and what putatively has been designated as a Palestinian state territory, but parts of present day Egypt, Jordan, Syria. Sometimes you'll have Israeli leaders saying we can extend even further. But from the early days of the Zionist movement, there was a part of that, the revisionist Zionist movement. And in fact their slogan was both banks of the Jordan. So that includes all of modern day Jordan.

[Zev Jabotinsky]

Though my country may be poor and small, it is mine from head to foot, stretching from the sea to the desert and the Jordan, the Jordan in the middle. Zev Jabotinsky Founder of the Revisionist Zionist

[Daniel Levy]

Movement the creation of Israel derived from a UN partition plan. We're in an era of decolonization. This is the late 1940s. Britain is the colonial power. It said it wants out, it hands it to the un. The UN sets up a special commission. It votes to partition the land between a Jewish state and a Palestinian Arab state. The Jewish state is supposed to get about 55%, the Palestinian Arab state 45%. When Israel is established, it Israel then expands its territory immediately from 55 to 78%. It kicks out most of the Palestinian population. That's known as the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe in 1967. Israel then takes that whole 100% of territory. The Palestinians in the late 1980s said, you know what? After everything that's happened, we'll accept a mini state on just 22% of the land. That's supposed to be the premise of Oslo, of the peace process, of this idea of a West Bank, Gaza, Palestinian state. But those borders have never been fixed. So Greater Israel to most people is about all the land that Palestinians still currently reside on. To some it expands much further.

[Noel King]

Okay, so some people say Greater Israel is a desire to have a map of Israel that is larger than it is today. And there are historical reasons for wanting that. And there are historical reasons that make the borders of Israel ostensibly easier to expand. Is there somewhere in an Israeli government office a folder that says, this is the Greater Israel Project, this is what we plan to do. And who has that folder? Whose plan is this within Israel?

[Daniel Levy]

Every single Israeli government since Israel took the west bank and east Jerusalem in 1967. Since the settlement project began moving Israeli citizens against international law into those Palestinian territories that are under Israeli occupation and administration. Every government, labor or Likud, center right or center left, has built and expanded those settlements. And today's Israeli governing coalition, in the coalition agreement which guides the government policies, has a line that says, the Jewish people have the exclusive and inalienable right to all of the land of Israel. That's the official guidelines of the government. Now there are some in the government who say to Damascus openly.

[Noel King]

Who says that?

[Daniel Levy]

Well, people may have heard of two ministers who are part of a further right party that Prime Minister Netanyahu helped create. Bezalel Smotrich, Finance Minister, head of the national Religious Party, Itamau Bengriel, Police Internal Security Minister, head of the Jewish Power Party. They openly say Greater Israel, resettle Gaza, settle Lebanon, expand the presence into Syria. Smotrich says right to Damascus.

[Zev Jabotinsky]

Okay, Bit by bit it is written that the future of Jerusalem is to expand to Damascus.

[Noel King]

So you've got a government that says, we want this. It does make me wonder though, ordinary Israelis, people who live in Israel, is this something that they want, that they support?

[Daniel Levy]

If you ask the Israeli broad populace, do you identify with the settlements and Greater Israel, you wouldn't get a consensus there. But if you ask them, should Israel evacuate that territory for a Palestinian state, you would get significantly more than 50% opposition. So the reality is that the settlement project, the Greater Israel Project is the lived reality. That's what gets budgets. That's where the military is positioned. That's how Israel lives on a day to day basis.

[Noel King]

The US has a tricky relationship with Israel right now. And we'll get into President Trump in just a second. But before we get to him, are there Americans in leadership that are advocating for this? Are there Americans that are saying, yes, let's have a bigger, a larger Israel and Israel with a larger map?

[Daniel Levy]

So the US Ambassador in Israel, Huckabee, he has talked about a Greater Israel in the more expansive definition of the term.

[Mark Caputo]

Does Israel have the right to that land?

[Daniel Levy]

Because you're appealing to Genesis, you're saying that's the original deed.

[Sam]

It would be fine if they took it all.

[Daniel Levy]

He represents there a brand of dispensationalist evangelical Zionism. Let's not, though, let everyone else off the hook, because no U.S. administration really ever clamped down on the settlements or held Israel to account for expanding into additional Palestinian territory in that way.

[Noel King]

There is a world in which the war in Iran ends today. There's a world in which the war in Iran ended three weeks ago.

[Daniel Levy]

Can I move to that world?

[Noel King]

Yes. Yeah, I'll go with you. There is. What we see is that the war in Iran is continuing. And we hear it's in part because Israel has aims in Iran, in Lebanon, that are preventing the end of this war. How much of not ending the war on. On Israel's side has to do with the Greater Israel Project, with expanding the borders of Israel?

[Daniel Levy]

What's important to understand when one zooms out beyond Israel's relentless displacement of Palestinians, seizing of Palestinian land? Everything that we see is to understand the Greater Israel Project from an additional angle, because we've been focused on the territorial dimension. But there's another way of understanding Greater Israel. And that I think is most relevant in the context of bringing the US into this war against Iran and wanting it to continue, continue, which Israel very transparently wants to be the case. And that is thinking about where Israel can project power, thinking of Israel as trying to maximally dominate this region of the world. And to do that, Israel needs to have an Iran that is domesticated, ideally a collapsing, chaotic state. And if, by the way, in the process of doing that, some of the Gulf states are exposed as more vulnerable, which is exactly what was predictable and what has happened, then the Israeli hope is they will move more into Israel's orbit. Trump spoke about this the other day and said they should join the Abraham Accords. Spoiler alert. Saudi and the others aren't about to do that. But if you can demonstrate that, because you can bring American power uniquely into the equation and use that power, that you are the unassailable military Hegemon, then you begin to assume, assert a greater Israel dominion in a different way. Netanyahu talks about this.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Our threats come and go, but when we become a regional superpower, and in many respects a global superpower, we have the power to push away threats and ensure our future.

[Daniel Levy]

He talks about the answer to Hormuz. Building pipelines to Israel's Mediterranean ports.

[Benjamin Netanyahu]

Just have oil pipelines going west through the Arabian Peninsula right up to Israel, right up to our Mediterranean ports. And you've just done away with the choke points for forever.

[Daniel Levy]

So he openly teases out this idea in many of his statements and actions. Personally, I think that's overreach. I don't think they can achieve that.

[Noel King]

Yes, I wonder about the question of overreach, because many of Israel's allies have become deeply frustrated with Israel in the past, you know, two and a half years. We talked in the first half of the show about how President Trump apparently got into a fight with Benjamin Netanyahu on the phone. And I wonder where this could lead. If Netanyahu continues to push this agenda, could it lead to such alienation from Israel's allies that it ends up reducing Israel's power and influence because Israel is abandoned by its allies? What, what, what is the potential downside here? For Netanyahu and those who pursue this

[Daniel Levy]

potential downside is devastating potentially. Israel is already looking at a reality in which regional actors who were taking very seriously the idea of Israel, it's there, it's not going away. It needs to be integrated. We'll play footsie. If only they weren't so in your face about how they treat the Palestinians, maybe they can get past that. Those countries today look around and they say, yes, we have a problem with Iran, but who started this war? Who managed to get America to do this against our interests? And that's a widely held position in the Gulf. And they look and they say, our publics have been watching these images coming out of Gaza for two and a half years. That is deeply radicalizing public opinion. They hear what Israeli leaders say that openly expansionist, but also racist. And they say this country needs to be contained. Now. Do they have the wherewithal to do it? Can they cooperate sufficiently to do it? Unclear. That's though the potential blowback that Israel is facing. Israel talks now about Turkey being the next Iran and enemy, taking on a very major military power and NATO state. That's not a war for tomorrow. But that's where some of this intended power projection bumps up against the realities that Israel is a small country so many people are saying ideologically, this expansionist division, and practically speaking, a small country with a limited population being able to carry it out, the anger that it is generating, all of that could blow up in our face in quite devastating ways. I wish I could tell you that if we see the back of Netanyahu and as I mentioned, Smotrich Ben gvir, then all this is out the window. But you still don't today have an alternative vision for actual existing Zionism that's non expansionist. And that gets you right back to the story of this is a Country Without Borders.

[Noel King]

Daniel Levy of the US Middle East Project, Daniel Hewitt and Avishai Artsy produced today's show, Jolie Meyers edited, Patrick Boyd was our engineer, and Gabriel Dunatov checked the facts. I'm Noel King, it's today, explained.

[Sam]

Sam.