Noel King (2:27)

If the ground incursion in Gaza City is deadly for both civilians and potentially the hostages, why is the IDF undertaking it? What's the objective in Gaza City?

Amir Thibon (2:38)

That's a great question. Because the leadership of the IDF was against this decision. This was a decision ordered by the Prime Minister against the very strong objections of the chief of staff of the Israeli military, Lieutenant General Eyal Zamir. He warned that what we're going to do there is endanger the hostages, lose many of our soldiers, get Israel entangled in very problematic actions from the international legal point of view, and at the end of the day, not fully defeat Hamas.

Noel King (3:16)

So this ground offensive, not a clear answer to what the objective is. It puts the hostages, as you've said, in danger. What does it mean for Palestinian civilians living in Gaza City?

Amir Thibon (3:28)

I would say that until now, about half of the population in Gaza City has left. But I'll share with you a story that I heard from a friend who used to live in Gaza and still has family there. And she contacted me last week and she said, look, my family is there every day. They and their neighbors are receiving messages from the Israeli military that they have to evacuate. And what they're telling the Israeli officers who are contacting them is, we don't have anywhere to go. We can't find any apartment, anywhere to stay in the southern parts of Gaza. Gaza City, just to be clear, is more in the northern part of the Gaza Strip. And so they're saying, we don't have anywhere to go. It's either take a risk, stay at home and maybe die in your home, or go and live in the street, sleep in a tent somewhere, which carries its own risks at this point. And even the question of safety is not clear if you go and do that, because there have also been bombardments and fighting episodes in areas where you have many of those refugees. So for them, they're looking at this like a nothing left to lose kind of situation. And as far as I know, the family of this friend of mine, so far they have remained in Gaza City simply because they don't see anywhere else they can go. You know, this is the kind of gamble with people's lives that we're talking about right now.

Noel King (4:59)

How do the families of the remaining hostages feel about this incursion, knowing what is at stake for their loved ones?

Amir Thibon (5:06)

First of all, when we talk about the hostages and their families, for me, it's very personal, because a good friend of mine, Omri Miran from my community, from Kibbutz Nachal Oz, a small Israeli kibbutz right next to the Gaza Strip. He was kidnapped on October 7 in front of the eyes of his two young daughters, who are the same age as my daughters, they saw their father taken away by armed terrorists. And we know that he is alive. He's been able to survive everything that happened over the last 23 months. But now the military told his family in very clear words, we can't say 100% that this will not endanger him, this expansion of the war. And the same message has been passed to all of the families of the 20 remaining living hostages in Gaza. And there are also about 28 hostages who are believed to be dead, but their families are still fighting to get their bodies back so they can be buried properly in Israel. And they have also received a message that nobody knows what could happen as the war is now expanded. Their biggest fear is that their loved ones will be buried forever under the rubble and never to be found. And so what you're seeing right now is many of the families of the hostages protesting against this expansion of the war against the Gaza City operation. We just had here in Israel, one of our most important holidays, Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. And on the eve of this holiday, you had hundreds of people, including families of the hostages and, by the way, including my own family, who chose to. I'm not going to say celebrate, because there was nothing to celebrate there, but chose to commemorate this holiday in a dinner in front of the prime minister's residence in Jerusalem, pleading with him to reverse this disastrous decision and not to risk their loved ones and to stop this before it's too late. And that's very unusual. You know, Israel has protests all the time and demonstrations, and we pride ourselves on being the only democracy in the region. But I don't remember a huge protest like this on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, which is such a holy and, you know, religious kind of day. It shows you how desperate people are.

Noel King (7:35)

You've covered diplomacy, and I want to ask you about what we're seeing in the U.S. president Trump, as you know, was at the UN General assembly meeting in New York yesterday. He said two things of note.

Donald Trump (7:46)

We have to stop the war in Gaza immediately. We have to stop it. We have to get it done. We have to negotiate immediately, have to negotiate peace. We got to get the hostages back.

Noel King (7:57)

What is your thinking on what matters to Trump at this point and what role does the US have to play at this point?

Amir Thibon (8:07)

President Trump is the only man in the world who can stop this war. And all it takes is one phone call from him to Prime Minister Netanyahu. It is that simple. Until he does that, I'm very pessimistic that anything will change. And I'll explain why. But it will require two minutes from the listeners.

Josh Keating (8:27)

Sure.

Amir Thibon (8:27)

In January 2025, right around the time that President Trump entered the White House, a deal was signed to basically end the war in Gaza. It was a deal with two phases. Phase number one included the release of 33 Israeli hostages from the hands of Hamas in return for a gradual but not full Israeli withdrawal from parts of Gaza and the release of about 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. And this was executed by both sides, implemented successfully. And while the deal was signed in President Biden's last days in the White House, everybody gave most of the credit to President Trump. Because what motivated Netanyahu to accept that agreement back then in January was fear of angering and alienating Trump before the new president's entry into the White House. Now, once the first phase was completed, we were supposed to enter the second phase of the deal. And that included the release of all the remaining hostages and a completion of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. Instead of continuing into the second phase. Netanyahu chose on March 18 to renew the war. And at the time, he told President Trump he needs just a few more weeks, just a few more weeks to finish off Hamas and force them to sign a better deal. From his point of view, what exactly that better deal looked like, we don't know. But he said, if I apply military pressure on them, we can get a better deal than the one signed in January. Noel, those several weeks have now turned into more than six months. During this period, and I'm speaking now from an Israeli point of view, six months, we've lost more than 60 Israeli soldiers. Our country has become isolated on the world stage like never before. And only one hostage, only one living hostage returned during this entire time. So what many Israelis are asking themselves is when will President Trump realize, when will. That the promise of just a few more weeks was delusional at best. And that meanwhile things are only deteriorating and getting worse. And that with one phone call, he can tell Netanyahu, let's go back to March, let's go back to the deal that was on the table that you already signed and begin implementing phase two. All the hostages come home and the war ends. And I think until President Trump does that, we are not going to see any good news come out of, come out of this part of the world.

Noel King (11:14)

Amir T. He writes for Haaretz. The Gates of Gaza is his book. Coming up. A cascade of Western nations have said in the last week or so that they will recognize Palestinian statehood. This is raising again the prospect of a two state solution. Stay tuned.

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Noel King (15:31)

I'm Noel King. In the last week or so, the uk, Canada, Australia, Portugal and others have joined France in recognizing a Palestinian state. Josh Keating has been writing about this. He covers foreign policy and national security for Vox.

Josh Keating (15:48)

Well, yeah, I mean, it's been a remarkable wave, about 10 countries. This is why I declare that today. France recognizes the state of Palestine.

Amir Thibon (15:59)

The United Kingdom formally recognizes the state of Palestine.

Josh Keating (16:04)

Canada recognizes the state of Palestine. In terms of what it actually does for the people on the ground in Palestine, or in Israel, for that matter, it doesn't change much. You know, these territories are still under Israeli military occupation. Palestine is not going to be a UN member so long as the US Has a veto on the Security Council. The Security Council has to approve any new members. But what I think it does show is just how the politics around this issue are really shifting. You know, I'd invite listeners to sort of look at. You can find a map on Wikipedia or other sites that show which countries currently recognize Palestine. And there used to be a big blank spot over Western Europe that was a holdout. Those were countries that, like the US did not recognize Palestine. And now that map's being increasingly filled in. So it's not only that Israel is getting more isolated on the US on the world stage, say it's the US that's also getting isolated on the world stage. And I think that that's really an indication of where the politics on this issue are headed.

Noel King (17:16)

Why is recognition happening now like this week?

Josh Keating (17:20)

Well, I think it's clearly a response to the scenes we're seeing out of Gaza and a frustration in the international community that, you know, this war is happening and they haven't been able to end it. Recognizing a Palestinian state today is the only way to provide a political solution to a situation which has to stop. And I think that, you know, particularly the governments in Western Europe, you know, of places like Britain, France, you know, and earlier we saw places like Norway and Ireland like they are. Those governments are under heavy pressure from their populations to do more to take a step pro Palestine. Protesters declared a global day of civil.

Sponsor/Announcer (18:02)

Disobedience and blocked traffic on o' Connell Bridge.

Amir Thibon (18:05)

A sea of people from all of Belgium and neighboring countries flooded the main streets of Brussels. As far as the eyes could See.

Josh Keating (18:13)

Some protesters said they blamed Western governments for complicity in war crimes against Palestinians. And so, you know, I think that, you know, I have heard, you know, experts on the UN call this fantasy diplomacy. People have called it virtue signaling that, you know, this is something that's not actually going to put much real pressure on Israel, but it's a way of showing that they're doing something. You know, I think from what I've heard from French officials, they see it as a way to, you know, sketch out a future vision for what a resolution to this conflict will look like. From what they say, that there's no way out of this conflict without presenting some kind of alternative as some kind of light at the end of the tunnel for the Palestinian people. You know, the government of Israel and the Trump administration would counter that, you know, they see this as just a reward for Hamas, saying that, you know, this is basically giving a Reward for the October 7th attacks.

Donald Trump (19:19)

Now, as if to encourage continued conflict, some of this body is seeking to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state. The rewards would be too great for Hamas terrorists for their atrocities. This would be a reward for these horrible atrocities.

Noel King (19:39)

How is Israel responding to these recognitions of statehood?

Josh Keating (19:43)

Well, negatively, I would say that we're hearing more calls in Israel to formally annex Palestinian territory. In response to these recogn, you have some members of the Netanyahu government talking openly about annexing parts of Gaza now. But I think really, actually the place to watch is the West Bank. There's been an active debate in Israel for years about annexing at least parts of the West Bank. And like, the more extreme ends is they could annex all of what's called Area C, which is the 60% of the west bank that's currently under Israeli military control. You know, I think the thing of doing that is it would basically, it's the only contiguous part of the west bank, and so it would reduce Palestinian territory to a few little sort of islands. You know, people call them Bantustans, going back to the apartheid South Africa. And so, you know, this would be a basically a way of kind of burying the prospect of Palestinian statehood permanently doing this.

Noel King (20:54)

And how is the US Responding?

Josh Keating (20:56)

The US Is opposed to unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state. And that, I should say, is not just the Trump administration position. That's been a consistent U.S. position from Democratic and Republican administrations. When it comes to annexation, things are a little less clear. You have members of the Trump administration, including the ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, who are sort of open Annexationists who say they should never be a Palestinian state, that, you know, this is rightfully Israeli territory.

Amir Thibon (21:30)

I think the question is, what does that Palestinian state look like? Where is it?

Donald Trump (21:35)

Where is it going to be?

Amir Thibon (21:36)

Does it have to be in Judea and Samaria?

Donald Trump (21:39)

Does it need to be somewhere different? Does it need.

Josh Keating (21:42)

I think President Trump's been a little more vague on this view. He said he's not wedded to the idea of a two state solution. He's certainly not as committed to it as Republican and Democratic administrations have been, at least rhetorically in the past. But I think his views on that are a little less clear. And I think what's interesting to me is one of the signature foreign policy accomplishments of the first Trump administration was the Abraham Accords.

Donald Trump (22:09)

Together, these agreements will serve as the foundation for a comprehensive peace across the entire region. Something which nobody thought was possible, certainly not in this day and age, maybe.

Josh Keating (22:21)

In these normalization deals between Israel and several Arab countries, notably the United Arab Emirates. And Trump had expressed hopes that Saudi Arabia, kind of the big kahuna in the neighborhood, could be brought into these accords as well. I think annexation would put any hope of that out of reach. And we've even seen the UAE government saying they might even suspend their membership in the, or the participation in the Abraham Accords if Israel went ahead with this. So, you know, when Israel talks about annexation, it's not just an Israeli issue. It's also potentially putting what Trump sees as one of his signature diplomatic accomplishments, one of the things he would point to as evidence for why he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. It would put that in jeopardy. So, you know, it's interesting, we've seen Trump at times in the past push back on some of some Israeli policies. So I think the messaging out of Washington isn't really clear on that yet.

Noel King (23:30)

Let's talk a little bit more about the two state solution. So we've got lots of world leaders at the UN General assembly in New York this week, and the idea of a two state solution is coming back up. Who's discussing it and what would this mean?

Josh Keating (23:44)

Right. So the longstanding kind of consensus position, both in the US Government and most Western governments is that a two state solution would come as a result of a negotiated settlement between the Israeli and Palestinian governments. So that's been the position. What's different now is these governments are unilaterally recognizing a Palestinian state in the absence of a negotiated solution. And I think that that's a response to the fact that there just doesn't seem to be any realistic prospect in the near term of a negotiated two state solution between Israel and Palestine. The idea frankly looks fanciful at the moment. So I think that's why we're seeing this move from several countries to kind of unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state now. And I should say there's a bill in the Senate, a resolution urging the Trump administration to recognize Palestine. Trump obviously is not going to do that. And I think you would have had a hard time getting even that prior to the war in Gaza.

Noel King (24:51)

Where does all of this leave Palestine and Israel?

Josh Keating (24:55)

You know, so it was interesting to hear a speech Netanyahu gave last week where he said basically that Israel is just going to have to get used to being isolated on the world stage. He said that they're going to have to be super Sparta in addition to Athens. And he said they might have to have an economy with autarkic characteristics. So self sufficient, basically. And so this doesn't sound like a government that is interested in caving to international pressure. And I think what we're seeing is the price of cooperation with Israel is just getting so high for some of these countries, both because of the furious public reaction to the images we're seeing out of Gaza and because the airstrikes that Israel has carried out in places like Yemen, Lebanon and even more consequently a few weeks ago in Qatar, which is a major regional economy, a place that hosts a U.S. military base. I think Israel is just seen as sort of destabilizing in the region. So I think it's, you know, if they continue on this course, it is kind of precluding this sort of deeper path toward deeper regional integration, toward a more friendly, peaceful coexistence with its neighbors, which they seem to be on a few years ago. And I think, you know, Netanyahu has shown that's a sacrifice he's willing to make. If the price of better relations with their neighbors is a negotiated end to the war in Gaza, if it's tangible steps towards a two state solution, that's not a price he's willing to pay.

Noel King (26:41)

That was vox's Josh Keating. You can find more analysis from Josh in his piece Turning Point or Political Theater? The big push for Palestinian statehood. Extension explained. That's@vox.com Today's show was produced by Kelly Wessinger and Denise Guerra with an assist from Ariana Espuru. Aminah Elsadi is our editor. Laura Bullard and Abishai Artsy Checked the facts. Adrian Lilly and Patrick Boyd engineered and I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. If you like Today Explained you should consider becoming a VOX member. VOX members get perks including ad free versions of this show. Who could ask for anything more really? But there is more unlimited readingox.com a member exclusive newsletter and I'm told so much more. You'll also be supporting our work. We cannot make Today Explained without VOX members. Sign up now and you'll get more than 30% off an annual membership. This is the sale folks. Go to Vox.com members to join. Sam.