A pro-Israel case against Israel

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A pro-Israel case against Israel"

Podcast: Today, Explained (Vox)
Date: March 7, 2026
Host: [Unspecified in transcript, referencing the "Saturday" edition]
Guest: Rahm Emanuel — Former U.S. Congressman, White House Chief of Staff under Obama, former Mayor of Chicago, and U.S. Ambassador to Japan

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Rahm Emanuel, one of the most experienced figures in recent American politics, with a unique vantage point on US-Israel relations, Iran policy, and the shifting American and Democratic perspectives on Israel. The conversation delves into Emanuel's critique of the current Israeli leadership, his evolving stance on U.S. aid, his opposition to the Netanyahu government’s choices, generational shifts in US-Israel sentiment, and domestic issues like education and teen social media use. Emanuel also addresses current debates such as whether Israel's actions constitute genocide and the future of American support for Israel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Congressional War Powers & Iran Strikes

• Congress's Role: Emanuel believes Congress should have debated and voted on authorizing strikes against Iran, particularly after the President described the situation as "war."
  • Quote: “The Congress is a day late and a dollar short... Once he says war and once he says regime change and moves it into the political column, then you absolutely have to have that vote and you have to have that debate.” (02:03)
• White House's Mixed Messaging: Emanuel critiques the White House for inconsistent public messaging regarding justification for recent attacks on Iran.
  • “You’ve gone from silent to multiple choice.” (03:29)

Iran Nuclear Deal & Biden Policy

• Hindsight on Re-joining the Iran Deal: Emanuel was a reluctant supporter of the original agreement, seeing it as a difficult but better alternative among “bad and worse” options. He regrets that Biden didn’t move more aggressively to build on the deal after Trump’s withdrawal.
  • “You just don’t hit reset... President Biden... should have [tried to improve], because Iran wasn’t standing still.” (06:11)

US-Israel Relations, Netanyahu, and Policy Shifts

• Rahm and Netanyahu's Fraught Relationship: Emanuel and Netanyahu have publicly feuded, with Emanuel describing direct confrontations over the two-state solution and settlement policy.
  • Quote: “In 2009, he publicly calls me a self-hating Jew. The only person he attacks in his book is me... President Obama had to basically separate us verbally.” (08:25, 09:35)
  • Memorable Anecdote: Obama to Netanyahu: “Rahm doesn’t hate you, but you should know, calling him a self-hating Jew probably didn’t help you either.” (09:36)
• Critique of Netanyahu's Leadership: Emanuel accuses Netanyahu of endangering Israel’s standing in the world and isolating its citizens.
  • Quote: “Never has Israel been more strategically secure. And never has it been more politically isolated and vulnerable in the 80 years of history.” (12:15)
  • Metaphor: Netanyahu is “leading Jews back into the ghetto,” meaning figurative and sometimes literal isolation from the global community. (11:03)

Is Israel Committing Genocide?

• Legal vs. Moral Argument: Emanuel draws a distinction between legal and moral definitions, ultimately stating he would not call Israeli military action "genocide" but strongly criticizes the scale of civilian deaths.
  • “There is a legal [definition]... Israel has a right to self-defense. What the prime minister did and how they pursued this war of self-defense... way dramatic. The amount of Palestinian deaths was not necessary for Israel’s security or reestablishing deterrence.” (12:49, 13:10)

Shifting US Public and Political Opinion on Israel

• Generational Shift: Emanuel highlights a dramatic generational change, with young Americans across parties more critical of Israel, and predicts a Democratic nominee for president in 2028 may not even visit Jerusalem.
  • Quote: “There’ll be no Democratic nominee or candidate, rather, in 2028, who’s going to the Wailing Wall. You don’t think so? Nope.” (14:38)

Democracy and Apartheid Allegations

• Complex Realities: Emanuel rejects the label of “apartheid,” but acknowledges “many blemishes” in Israel’s treatment of its Arab minority and says Israel's democracy is incomplete but real.
  • “There is clearly not an equal status... like us, this is a never-ending process to improve ourselves.” (16:32)

U.S. Aid to Israel

• Call for Aid Reform: Emanuel argues Congress should shift from subsidizing Israel’s defense budget to a more transactional, arms-purchase relationship. He blames Netanyahu for this new posture.
  • Quote: “You want to buy defense equipment? You’re like anybody else out there. You’re going to have to pay for yourself. The idea that we’re going to continue to subsidize your defense budget, not happening anymore.” (17:43)

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Rahm Emanuel on Domestic Policy

Education Policy

• Passionate About Education: Emanuel discusses his personal and political commitment to education reform, lamenting a lack of focus on K-12 from Democrats.
  • “As a party, you can’t believe in equity and be complacent with 50% of your kids not doing reading and math at grade level.” (19:26)

Teenage Social Media Ban

• For a Social Media Age Ban: Emanuel advocates banning social media under age 16, likening Big Tech algorithms to the tobacco industry’s targeting of youth.
  • Quote: “You think mom and dad can take on Facebook by themselves and TikTok?... No parent... can face off TikTok and Instagram on their own.” (20:33)
  • Confronts civil liberties critique: “It’s either the adults or the algorithm who’s going to raise that adolescent.” (22:18)
  • Strong on urgency: “I’m not ready to give up adolescents for that virtue [of social connection on social media].” (23:15)

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Rahm on the 2028 Election and Potential Presidential Run

• Considering a Run: Emanuel admits he’s considering a presidential run, focusing on education and defending the American dream as his core issues.
  • Quote: “Tough times require a tough leader... Do I have the answers to what I think ails America?... If I decide to do it that I have what I think ails the country, I’ve proven in my record... I have a proven record getting this done.” (24:11–25:25, paraphrased for clarity)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Netanyahu: “I think the Prime Minister... would lead the Jewish people into... a ghetto where they’re not permitted out... That has been the consequences of his decisions.” (11:03)
• On US-Israel Relations: “Never has Israel been more strategically secure. And never has it been more politically isolated and vulnerable in the 80 years of history.” (12:15)
• On Social Media Restrictions: “It’s either the adults or the algorithm who’s going to raise that adolescent... our kids need protections.” (22:18)
• Predicting Democratic Shift: “There’ll be no Democratic nominee... in 2028, who’s going to the Wailing Wall.” (14:38)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Congressional Authorization for War with Iran: 02:03–03:29
• White House Messaging & Iran Nuclear Policy: 03:29–07:11
• Rahm vs. Netanyahu, Two-State Solution: 08:25–09:36
• Isolation of Israel & Critique of Netanyahu: 11:03–12:15
• Is Gaza Genocide? 12:49–14:06
• Shifting US Public Opinion, 2028 Predictions: 14:19–16:19
• Democracy & Apartheid Debate: 16:19–17:26
• Conditional U.S. Aid to Israel: 17:31–18:47
• Education as Political Priority: 19:00–20:04
• Teen Social Media Ban: 20:33–23:54
• Presidential Ambitions & Closing Thoughts: 24:11–25:25

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Tone and Final Impressions

Throughout the episode, Emanuel speaks with clarity, pragmatic realism, and personal conviction. He levels harsh criticism at Prime Minister Netanyahu from a pro-Israel, American perspective, arguing that current Israeli policies undermine both Israel’s founding ideals and its international standing. He is frank about shifts in American public opinion, particularly among young people, and is unafraid to advocate major changes—from cutting military aid to implementing strong tech regulations. Emanuel also weaves in humor and memorable anecdotes about political confrontations, never shying away from pointed, sometimes biting, commentary.

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Summary: Who Should Listen?

Anyone interested in U.S.-Israel relations, American political shifts, or the interplay of foreign and domestic policy will find this episode rich with firsthand insight and policy debate. Emanuel’s candor, historical perspective, and willingness to break with Democratic orthodoxy on Israel make for a rare and revealing interview.

Transcript

[Rahm Emanuel]

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[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Hi and welcome to TODAY Explained Saturday. This week we talk with Rahm Emanuel, former congressman, White House chief of staff under President Obama, two term mayor of Chicago, and the former ambassador to Japan under President Biden. Now, why talk with Rahm? Well, first, very few people have operated at every level of power in American politics like he has. Also, Emmanuel has a specific lens when it comes to the growing conflict in Iran. He was one of the people who helped negotiate peace agreements alongside President Clinton in the 1990s. Emanuel was also in the Obama White House as they took the first steps toward the Iran nuclear deal. Emanuel also has a long and testy history with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who's at the center of this conflict and is increasingly a controversial figure in domestic politics. But my first question to Rahm Emanuel was pretty simple. What should we call the guy? Ambassador, mayor, Congressman, let's dig in. We thank you for joining us and it's a particularly newsy time. I know that you're someone who has led the Democratic has been a big part of shaping the Democratic Party over the last 20 years. I want to start there. If you were in Congress right now, I'm sure you followed Congressman Ro Khanna's war powers resolution that he's, that he's tried to put on the floor along with Congressman Thomas Massie. I was wondering if, you know, what do you think about that War of Powers resolution and would you vote for the president to have to come to Congress for approving the Iran strikes that we saw?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Short answer is yes, but let me fill in the blanks because I think it's important. One is the Congress is a day late and a dollar short. You knew this and they should have been forcing this issue and debating it. You didn't even need to get a vote. They should have been debating this second piece. And the reason I'm a yes is a the president in his eight minute video over the weekend uses the term war. So once he says that, it triggers it. You could argue through the merits of this. But we're going to go after the nukes, we're going to go after the ballistic Missiles, we're going to go after the capabilities, the proxies and left it in the strategic or military area. I'm not sure based on history. And that includes both. Democrat, Republican president, you would do that. But once he says war and once he says regime change and moves it into the political column, then you absolutely have to have that vote and you have to have that debate.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

I mean, I think that makes a clear point about the process. I also want to ask about the substance. The White House has given contradictory, varying reasons for this, but it's like a la carte.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You can pick whatever you want from the salad bar.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Absolutely. From every interview he's given, he said everything from this isn't regime change, this maybe is regime change to this is kind of punishment for years long anti American crimes. But let's try to take the reasoning that White House press secretary Caroline Levitt said that this was about permanently decapitating Iran's nuclear capability and punishing a regime that was fundamentally anti American. If President Trump and hypothetically would have made that case in front of Congress and you were there, would you have voted to authorize the strikes?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So let me again, let me go back a second here. First of all, the administration is silent to a fault when they start. Literally, not only the president silent, his cabinet is even out trying to explain it to the country on Sunday morning. So you've gone from silent to multiple choice. And I took note of this. You had the secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, the two individuals that sit on either side of the president in the Cabinet room based on ranking in the Cabinet, et cetera, Secretary of Defense, Hegseth walks. The president's comments over the weekend back to more of a strategic. Secretary Rubio implies other things that the United States got led into this and the president of the United States says all of it and above and more, et cetera. So to me, that is a real challenge. The second thing is, and I do think, you know, my guess is if it was left to the strategic the president, United States has latitude. Doesn't mean we don't have a debate as a country about it. The political component of this is what has hurt the cause. Because at this point the president, if he had stuck in the administration to not only more limited, you could have argued the country would back it. Second, he'd be at the point right now of serious success versus, you know, you're not gonna decapitate. In 15 months, this president has taken military action against eight countries just in 15. Now we got three more years to go in 15 months, Iran twice. But you have Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Venezuela, I'm losing Nigeria. Now, they may have said this could be a calculation. The intelligence gives the president a briefing and say, look, if you don't move now in a year from now or just say six months from now, here's what where our thought is both on nuclear startup and on ballistic missiles, then you have a case in the situation which is either this window closes and you don't act. And they're just you think and that's probably true given the Iranian history. They're not really negotiating with you. They're acting like they're negotiating with you. And what goes into the Oval Office and now do I think that they had a thorough discussion sitting around the Situation Room the way that President Obama had 14 separate meetings about Afghanistan? No, I think he decided down in Mar a Lago last person to talk to him and there he goes. Which has been the history.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yes, it has. I wanted to ask about that. You mentioned your years in Obama's White House's chief of staff. You worked with with him as he helped Warcraft the Iran nuclear deal. Obviously, Trump pulled out of that. But there was an opportunity for the Biden White House maybe to rejoin that deal in early 2021. They chose not to brace to try to negotiate a stronger deal that never really came together. I wanted to know if you thought that was a mistake.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So again, each of these are not yes or no. Let me thinking I supported first of all, I was mayor when the we started earlier, but I was mayor when the agreement came. I was forward. It's a 5149 decision. The criticism of it, I was for it. And here's the bet. Look, I always joke but I mean this, what comes into the Oval Office is bad and worse. And so when you're sitting down in the situation, you're trying to weigh equities and trying to look around the corner. I think that's why I had my own kind of indigestion. But in the end of the day as mayor, I supported that agreement because I thought the equities slightly tilted over the liabilities. I do think given the six years blind, you just don't hit reset. There's no reset. I have been there eight years. So does President Biden want to engage in something else to improve given what we have missed? He should have because Iran wasn't standing still.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

More with Rahm Emanuel in a minute.

[Rahm Emanuel]

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[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

we're back. It's today explained Saturday and we're talking to Rahm Emanuel. You know, Secretary Marco Rubio recently said that the administration his justification. Secretary Marco Rubio gave his own justification for what happened over the weekend separate

[Rahm Emanuel]

from the rest, separate from the rest

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

of the administration, saying that Israel, he said the administration knew Israel was going to strike Iran and that would trigger retaliation against American forces. And so the administration decided to act preemptively. Now you dealt with Netanyahu directly when you were in the White House. I wanted to know your view of this situation. When you look at at the kind of chain of events that led to Saturday, do you see a White House that got rolled by Netanyahu?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I don't because there's so much meetings of coordination. The idea that one of the if you look at Netanyahu and I, as you know, because we talked about it beforehand, I mean in 2009, he publicly calls me a self hating Jew. The only person he attacks in his book is me. We go all the. We'll go.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah, yeah. Tell me some of those stories about you all's relationship.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, it gets down to is having spent my time with President Clinton on the two state solution, Oslo accords, why plantation agreement, et cetera, and believing like Yitzhak Rabin did and like many elements of the Israeli defense and national security apparatus, the best way forward is a two state solution. I saw what he was doing on housing as what would break the foundation of that two state solution and said it to his face, unlike others who may have whispered it behind their back. I didn't need a war to know in 2009, this Prime Minister was committed to doing something that I think would undermine not only the state of Israel, but undermine America's national security interests in that region. And we just went at it to the point that, I mean President Obama had to basically separate us verbally.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

This is where well, we had a

[Rahm Emanuel]

big fight in the Oval Office. We also there was a famous phone call. The president's talking to the prime minister and the prime minister's Going on and on about me. And finally President Obama says, look, Rahm doesn't hate you, but you should know, calling him a self hating Jew probably didn't help you either. Okay? That's what President Obama relayed to me the next day. There will never be a river to the sea and there will never be a greater Israel. Both are heads and tails of the same coin. They're both basically wrong in my view. That said to the question as it relates here, Prime Minister Netanyahu never went against a president. Never. Now, he wanted Obama to take this action. He wanted Joe Biden to take this action.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yep.

[Rahm Emanuel]

He never took it. Pulled the trigger solo without a President of the United States or United States backing. So the idea that he was going to unilaterally, now I'm not a fan, but he was gonna unilaterally do this and the United States had to get ahead of him. I don't buy just based on history. That's number one. Number two, I'm not giving a pass to the White House like they have no agency. Right, Right. Forget about it.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Think of this at no, just not only. No, you could have stuffed him like every other president.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Now, you know, as I was looking this up, I was seeing some quotes from you talking about your relationship with Netanyahu and you said, quote, I don't

[Rahm Emanuel]

think he would use the word relationship.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Well, you know, you're back and forth with, with the Prime Minister and you said that you felt that he was leading Jews, quote, back into the ghetto. That felt like a strong statement to me. I wanted you to explain that yourself.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Look, today Israelis are saying they can't travel to Europe. You have Israelis that cannot participate in scientific conferences. You have cultural institutions. Other Israel cannot participate or go perform other places. You are being denied entry. I'm using that metaphorically as well as symbolically as well as literally into other countries. Because one of the desires is to be a, as Ben Gurion said, the founding father, to be a nation among nations. And literally Jews and more specifically Israelis are being cut off from participating intellectually, culturally, academically, go down the list, sports wise, talent wise, you know, in parts of the world community that you, that your own people want. Second, there's been more people leaving than coming. So I think the Prime Minister and I never thought prime minister would leave, would lead the Jewish people into what I said, and I mean it both literally, but more symbolically into a ghetto where they're not permitted out. And that has been the consequences of his decisions. Never has Israel been more strategically secure. And never has it been more politically isolated and vulnerable in the 80 years of history.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

There's also been obviously a political backlash in the United States. Polling shows that for the first time, Americans see this conflict and sympathize with Palestinians over Israelis. And among Democrats, that number has shifted dramatically, specifically as a perception shift driven by the response to the attacks. On October 7th, I wanted to know for you. 70,000 people were killed in Gaza. According to the Red cross, more than 70% of Democrats think a genocide occurred. I wanted to put that question front of view. Do you think that the military actions constitute the genocide?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No. Look, here's what I think one is. A number of prime ministers have said that that is a legal. That is a firm legal question. I think this with Israel isn't also a moral question. Yes, but when you say is it genocide? There is a legal.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

For sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, okay. And I'm not a lawyer. You're not a lawyer, but that is a legal definition.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

I hear you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's a great book called East west street about that term and the crimes against humanity. But how those two terms come to be post World War II. So my own view is Israel has a right to self defense. What the prime minister did and how they pursued this war of self defense and, and what they did, way dramatic. The amount of Palestinian deaths was not necessary for Israel's security or re establishing deterrence. So never again does 1,200 people not only get killed, but raped and children are shot in front of their parents and parents are shot in front of their kids and sexually abused and 250 people taken hostage. That deterrence was accomplished way earlier than. And you were. As I said, you know, I'm using this figuratively. You're telling me the difference between 40,000 and 70,000 Palestinians dead made Israel more secure. But I also think Israel has, as I said, more strategically secure and more politically isolated than ever before.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Last question on this front. Earlier this week, Gavin Newsom compared Israel to an apartheid state and said that the US has no choice but to reconsider military support. It stuck out to me because that felt like maybe a signal of the shifting median Democratic position on this front. You volunteered.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can I go? One thing.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah, sure, for sure.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So one is it's a generational thing. If you look at it. Yes, it's more intense among Democrats, but it's basically 30 and younger, regardless of party affiliation.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

That is definitely true.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. Second, thanks for that.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

And movement among independents, movement among Republicans all across the board.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Second, I said this to other Places. I want to repeat this point. I said it to a Mideast group of both Israeli and Arabs. I said, look, when President Obama runs For President in 08, in 07, he goes to Israel, he goes and makes sure that he's wearing a yarmulke. He goes to the Wailing Wall. There'll be no Democratic nominee or candidate rather, in 2028, who's going to the Wailing Wall. You don't think so? Nope. And if you think they're going to Jerusalem, it's to get gas on their way to Ramallah. Okay, so just get ready for this. Because of what the Prime Minister has done and he is paying a consequence on this. Now, look, in that sense, I think that the change of politics now, one, I don't agree. You know, I don't. I want to see what Gavin said because I don't like it just through a social. I've seen that on social media. So I don't. I want to see what he said. I want to see what else he said that wasn't in there. A few things I would say. One, you know, in the Supreme Court is an Arab Israeli that did not exist, enduring apartheid. There are members of the Knesset, the Israeli government that I think it's 11 seats in the last count or maybe 15 that are Arab Israeli parties and also in parts of the Arab Israeli community that lives within quote, unquote, Israel proper is actually not equal citizenship. You have certain rights that you can participate and certain rights. You're a second class citizen in your own country. I don't believe it's apartheid, but there's a lot of. There's more than just a few blemishes here, that Israel is not fully engaged, its citizens, all its citizens, and that most importantly the Arab Israeli population that exists within Israel.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Well, let me remove it from the comments from Newsom that you've often heard democratic politicians and republican ones say that our relationship with Israel is based in its reality of the only democracy in the Middle East. Do those blemishes you're laying out add up to a democracy?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you can say that about certain things in the United States.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

You can definitely.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, so do they have election? Do they have a free press? All those things exist. Do they have other pieces that make up a political process? Now, is the Prime Minister trying to change judiciary as a prime minister, when you look at all the criminal, all the cases against him, what is the one common theme? Him trying to change the way the media covers him and the free press. And also while Israeli Arabs have the right to vote. They serve in government, they serve in all kinds of professions, et cetera. In fact, many of some of them, like the Druze, serve in the military. All that said, there is clearly not an equal status. So I think it's a incomplete take. Just sit there and say, and paint it with a broad brush. But so I would say, like us, this is a never ending process to improve ourselves and achieve all and making everybody feel like they participate in the democratic system. And Israel has its own bigger challenges.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah. It definitely though, feels like the next Democratic nominee will be asked about the question of US Aid to Israel.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And the question, well, that's easy.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

And so that's why I also want to put that one in front of you, too.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I mean, look again, getting back to Prime Minister Netanyahu, which again in 2009, you want to spart a country.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You called for it. You're on your own. I think actually it's a mistake in Congress to say we're going to restrict how you use my view. We're not giving you the aid. You want to buy defense equipment. You're like anybody else out there. You're going to have to pay for yourself. The idea that we're going to continue to subsidize your defense budget, not happening anymore. And that's what the prime minister says is have at it, brother.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah. I'm curious when that shift happened for you. I mean, you're someone who served in Israeli Defense forces in the 1990s. You probably didn't always think that, like when did that Rubicon Cross?

[Rahm Emanuel]

First of all, I served two weeks at the Friends of. And that was during the Gulf War.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

That was. Yep. And I should say that. I should say that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. A little context there.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yes. Important. But I'm saying for you, when did that shift happen?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, when Israel. Look, I, here's my. I suppose if you step back and look at it wide, I actually think Prime Minister Netanyahu has turned his back on the Zionist ideals of the establishment of the state of Israel. I think he's turned his back on the founding principles of the state of Israel, both in Israel and outside Israel.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah, I think that comes through in the critique. I want to also move on. We're talking about an issue in the news. I want to talk about issue. You want to be more in the news in terms of education.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This is my part of the.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

This is your time with the show. I want to talk also about the things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the things that we have to we must talk about, and I know we also want to talk about the things you want to talk about. You know, education has been a big part of what you've been talking about over the last year. And I wanted to have a sense of, like, why, you know, a lot of Democratic politicians have frankly abandoned K12. What's the bet here and what's the importance here?

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's both personal as well as political. Let me start with the personal. So when I up to my mother's anger, I gave up my ballet career and I had a scholarship to the Joffrey Ballet School. I studied to become an early childhood educator. That's what interests. As you know, when I was mayor of Chicago, we created universal kindergarten. Universal pre K never existed. But as a party, you can't believe in equity and be complacent with 50% of your kids not doing reading and math at grade level, which is where you are. I find it weird that I am the only person talking about this.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

You've advocated for a social media ban for kids, modeling your proposal after something that's been passed in Australia. Intuitively, it makes sense to me, particularly as you know, we say, I would hope more than intuitively study after study that shows the impacts of social media, particularly to teens. But it does feel a little, I don't know if what the word is a little anti freedom maybe. I mean, like, why shouldn't a parent decide whether their child or teenager has. Why can't they decide their social media responsibility for themselves? I do not.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. I have three kids. They're all grown up. I'm not. Not every parent has the agency that Amy and I have. And I've, you know, I bet I'm the biggest battler against tobacco companies. They come and spend money. I drove our teen smoking down to single day. You couldn't sell a cigarette in Chicago within 500ft of a school door. Could not do it. Raised all the tobacco prices to the highest and we gave free eye and dental care to kids. Now let me just be clear. You think mom and dad can take on Facebook by themselves and TikTok? No Washington Post 6 weeks ago wrote a great story about all the documents out of Instagram saying how they're gonna target kids. No parent, not even two good parents with a lot of agencies. I don't mean good parents, but parents with a lot of agency can face off TikTok and Instagram on their own. There are times in which the government has to come in and like against the tobacco companies. Like others pushing an addictive product. Those algorithms are addictive. You need to level the playing field. So my view, 16, you're not allowed to get a social media app and you gotta give kids the space to get the moral foundation and the capacity to manage TikTok and Instagram with some. I'm not saying 17's the exact number I do, but Australia's at 16. But at that point, give them the sense to give them back their own childhood. We have seen banning the telephone in the classroom has had immediate impact on social networks, on friendships, on books being hired out, taken out of libraries. So to me, this is the right thing to do to give our kids back their childhood and it's been stolen from them.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

I totally understand the banning in the classroom.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let me tell you this other thing. I don't mean to. Wait, this civil liberty argument. Yeah, okay.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Is that not a real one?

[Rahm Emanuel]

The fact that for a 16 year old.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

No, it's not a, It's. No, no. You know what, the question.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They're targeting your kids. Look, it's either the adults or the algorithm who's going to raise that adolescent. And they have been upfront in those documents. And it reminds me of when we finally got the tobacco company documents and they had been doing everything we accused them of and they said it's not true. That document from Instagram of how you have to grow by targeting kids tells you everything you need to know and our kids need protections.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

I just wanna push back one more time though, like theoretically. Theoretically, you can be a teen on Instagram and be getting information. You can be understanding the world around you. You can be. It can be a social water cooler for friends that does not necessarily lead to the things that we see that are bad. Now, I know the realness of the algorithm and I know the realness of the negative effects on folks, but I'm saying, isn't this kind of baby with bath water? No child under 16 should be able to use social media first.

[Rahm Emanuel]

In this case, I would say that. And if you look at the business model of all these social media apps, none of them make money teaching the words to Kumbaya. Their model is to separate you, not bring you together. And there's lots of great research showing when depression, suicide, sense of isolation, alienation kick in, and it's exactly in 2012 when Instagram and Facebook take over, TikTok's made it much worse. I'm not saying there isn't some virtue, but I'm not ready to give up adolescents for that virtue.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

You said this earlier, but you've openly considering a run for president. You've made clear kind of what you want to focus on as you've done in this conversation. What's the decision factor then? What are you waiting for to decide

[Rahm Emanuel]

about what the reaction to this podcast

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

it all lives and dies right now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, one of the things is, look, I think tough times require a tough leader and I think we're in tough times. Second, do I have the answers to what I think ails America? Part of what I'm going to be going to Wisconsin pretty soon. I've been in Iowa, I've been in Mississippi. I'm going to go all parts of the country. Democrats don't go. Third, having run for office before, you got to know your head, your heart and your gut are in the same place. I don't know that that process, both of those last two, that process is evolving at this time. So I'll be checking myself and it's the last office I would ever run for. And if I got what I want to do, I I don't ever believe in woulda, coulda, shoulda. And I'm gonna make sure if I decide to do it that I have what I think ails the country. I've proven in my record whether it was taken on the pharmaceutical industry, the tobacco industry, the gun lobby, insurance company, the banks, the health insurance company, I've taken them on and beaten them. So I think right now we're in a place where those guys need another two by four upside their head. I'm going to give you the option. If you think education is core, if you think the American dream of making it more affordable is core, I have proven record getting this done.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Marv, thank you.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

Thank you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's Ambassador you.

[Host of TODAY Explained Saturday]

That was Ambassador Rahm Emanuel, former mayor of Chicago. This episode was produced by Jesse Ash. It was edited by Today Explained executive producer Miranda Kennedy, Fact checked by Andrea Lopez Cruzado and mixed by Shannon Mahoney. Thanks as always to supervising engineer David Tadashore and Christina Vallis, our head of video. Every Saturday we'll be in your video and audio feeds with an interesting interview in culture or politics. You can also watch the Saturday interviews this week and every week on the Vox YouTube channel. [e-mail] vox SAM.