A white, male military

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – "A white, male military"

Date: July 7, 2026
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram (Vox)
Guests: Tom Bowman (NPR's Pentagon reporter), Captain John Cordle (Ret. US Navy)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into recent upheavals in the U.S. military’s promotion and leadership structure under Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and the Trump administration. The show investigates widespread reports of firings and blocked promotions—disproportionately affecting women and Black officers—and the resulting impact on morale, military culture, and future leadership diversity. The conversation features Pentagon reporting from Tom Bowman and firsthand reflections from retired Navy Captain John Cordle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Suppression of Information and Pentagon Reporter 'Exile'

• [02:13] Tom Bowman explains his and other Pentagon reporters’ decision to leave the Pentagon, calling himself "in exile," due to new press restrictions.
  • "They wanted us to sign this document basically saying you can't solicit information from anyone in the Pentagon. You have to wait until the Pentagon releases information, and only then can you report on it." – Tom Bowman [02:36]
  • The policy parallels Chinese press control: "He said, 'Oh, just like us.'" – Chinese military attaché, relayed by Bowman [03:23]

2. 'Friday Night Massacre': Firings and Denied Promotions

• [03:34] Discussion of turmoil in Secretary Hegseth’s office: firings of Joint Chiefs Chairman General CQ Brown (2nd Black officer in the role) and Admiral Lisa Franchetti (first woman to head the Navy).
• [04:13] Hegseth previously called Brown a "DEI hire" and has openly questioned the merit of women and Black officers in top positions.
  • "It’s nearly impossible to change a culture with the same people who helped create or even benefited from that culture." – Pete Hegseth [04:17]
• [04:37] Estimated "several dozen, maybe even more" women and Black officers fired or denied promotion, without stated reason.

3. Rhetoric and No Evidence

• [05:09] Hegseth publicly states: "We need moms, but not in the military, especially in combat units. Chapter 8, supporting DEI means soldiers die." [05:09]
• [05:29] Bowman counters: "Not that I’ve seen... you look at their records, and clearly they’re pretty stellar individuals...there’s nothing in there that would indicate that, well, this person doesn’t deserve this." – Tom Bowman

4. Not Only Minorities—White Men Like Chris Donahue Also Sidelined

• [06:47] Some notable white officers, like Chris Donahue—a respected Delta Force commander—are also under scrutiny or blocked.
  • Donahue recognized for being the last American soldier to leave Afghanistan [07:30]; possibly facing repercussions from the Afghanistan withdrawal investigation.

5. Congressional Pushback and Legislative Efforts

• [08:27] Congress is reacting, especially following the firing of Army Chief of Staff, Randy George (praised across party lines).
  • "General George, let’s talk about a guy who’s a patriot...Why did he get fired?" – Congressional testimony [08:47]
• [09:06] Bipartisan move to insert language in defense bills requiring written justification for senior officer firings or removal from promotion lists.

6. Rise of Loyalty-as-Qualification

• [09:57] Open worry that promotions are now based on “loyalty” to the Secretary rather than merit or experience.
  • "Nobody questioning me. Just do what you’re told, right? Maybe not offer your best military advice." – Tom Bowman [10:11]
  • "It may take a generation to make this thing better, to bring some of these people up who really deserve the job as opposed to just some loyalty test." – Tom Bowman

7. Climate of Fear and Demoralization

• [16:00] Captain John Cordle details the Navy’s rigorous, merit-based promotion process—subverted by unexplained name removals at the Secretary of Defense’s level.
• [18:09] Service member reactions: widespread demoralization, fear, and disenfranchisement.
  • "It doesn’t matter how hard I work, how good I am...I’m going to have my name removed from the list anyway because I’m a woman." – Unnamed Navy officer (relayed by Cordle) [18:09]
  • "It’s a dangerous time to be in the military." – Unnamed female officer [18:09]
  • "My genes and my chromosomes seem to matter more than my performance and my achievements. And to me, that’s the antithesis of merit." – Unnamed officer via Cordle [19:57]

8. Long-Term Damage and The Future of Military Diversity

• [20:20] Cordle notes the unique danger in demoralizing the military, whose identity and loyalty tie deeply to service.
• [21:45] Warns of precedent: the possibility that future administrations, in reaction, may purge for political reasons—endangering the apolitical norm.
  • "It’s never completely apolitical, but it's pretty dire...the admiralty Corps is already 95% white male...not going to be long until there are no female admirals," – Captain Cordle [21:45]
  • "Leadership of the military is different than the people that they're leading. And to me, that's a very dangerous place to be." [22:45]

9. No Evidence of DEI Harming Lethality—Perpetual Backlash Cycle

• [23:00] No credible evidence that diversity harms military effectiveness:
  • "You could have a lethal force and be inclusive." – Captain Cordle [24:05]
• [24:24] Cordle contextualizes pushback as cyclical—every effort to expand inclusion sees a reaction.
  • "I think we've come a long way in the service over the years, and I think we were making a lot of progress. And it's kind of heartbreaking to see that sort of being ripped apart." – Captain Cordle [25:44]

10. Resilience and Hope for Rebuilding

• [25:47] Optimism persists: "The ship will right itself...If the military can stay less political and just do their job, then I think we'll be fine." – Captain Cordle [26:40]

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Notable Quotes

• On the new Pentagon press policy:
  "He said, 'Oh, just like us.'" – Chinese military attaché, relayed by Tom Bowman [03:23]
• On firings and DEI rhetoric:
  "Supporting DEI means soldiers die." – Pete Hegseth [05:21]
  "Not that I’ve seen." – Tom Bowman, on any evidence for DEI harming military [05:29]
• On the climate of fear:
  "My genes and my chromosomes seem to matter more than my performance and my achievements." – relayed by Captain Cordle [19:57]
• On precedent and future military leadership:
  "It's not going to be long until there are no female admirals in the Navy by the end of his administration." – Captain Cordle [22:45]
• On cyclical backlash:
  "Every time that there's...some folks that look like me that feel that if you get ahead, then I get behind. I don't feel that way...but I think that feeling is out there." – Captain Cordle [25:44]
• On hope and resilience:
  "We've been through civil wars and civil rights...History bends towards justice...There’s enough good people in the Navy..." – Captain Cordle [25:47]

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Key Timestamps

• 02:13 – Tom Bowman on Pentagon press restrictions
• 03:23 – Foreign attaché compares U.S. to China in info control
• 04:13 – Discussing 'Friday Night Massacre' and DEI rhetoric
• 06:47 – Chris Donahue’s case and Afghanistan fallout
• 08:27 – Congressional reaction and new legislation
• 09:57 – Loyalty vs. merit in promotions
• 16:00 – Captain Cordle explains the promotion process
• 18:09 – Demoralized officers and climate of fear
• 21:45 – Precedent and the danger of unrepresentative leadership
• 24:05 – No evidence diversity hurts effectiveness
• 25:47 – Cordle’s hope for military resilience

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Conclusion

The episode documents serious concerns over politicization, representation, and the integrity of military leadership. Despite current setbacks and demoralization, both guests reference the military’s historical resilience, noting optimism that, with time, the institution can recover—if political interference wanes and the focus returns to warfighting and merit.

Transcript

[Sean Ramasuram]

What can we say about President Trump's efforts to commemorate our country's 250th birthday? The reflecting pool grew algae, the ice cream melted, the speakers fell from the stage. But it wasn't all bad. The fireworks slapped and Trump repaired the glorious fountain at Malcolm x Park in D.C. pete Hegseth showed up to speak at the park last week and was met by protesters.

[Pete Hegseth]

It's the sound of ingrates, of ingratitude, of people who are so blinded by ide.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Locals showed up to demand the National Guard get out of DC Law and

[Pete Hegseth]

order is something all Americans deserve. Black, white, rich, poor, man or woman from D.C. or far flung places in this country.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Kind of curious Pete decided to go Rainbow Coalition on him because over at the Pentagon he's been firing generals and blocking promotions and a lot of the people losing out are women and or black. What year is it? Coming up on Today Explained from Vox. Support for this show today comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move. Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter with deep research. Claude's research capabilities go way deeper than basic web search, comprehensive research, reliable analysis with proper citations, turning hours of research into minutes for problems worth solving. You can get started with Claude at Claude AI todayexplained. That's Claude AI todayexplained.

[Rabindran]

Here's something most wellness influencers won't tell you. Obsessing over supplements, powders, cold plunges, wearables and hacks. That's going to undermine your goals. I call it majoring in the minors. And it is one of the five mistakes I see people make most on their wellness journeys. I'm Rabindran, VPN Head instructor at Peloton, and this week on my podcast Project Swagger, I'm sharing all of those mistakes and what I want to see you do instead. Follow Project Swagger now, wherever you get your podcasts,

[Sean Ramasuram]

this is TODAY Explained.

[Tom Bowman]

I'm Tom Bowman, NPR's Pentagon reporter in exile.

[Sean Ramasuram]

In exile? What does that mean?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, you may have remembered that reporters from the Pentagon walked out and turned in our press badges last October.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Tom Bowman, NPR's Pentagon correspondent, is handing in his press pass now. That does not mean he will stop doing the job.

[Tom Bowman]

And the reason is because they wanted us to sign this document basically saying you can't Solicit information from anyone in the Pentagon. You have to wait until the Pentagon releases information, and only then can you report on it. And a month after this happened, I was at a. This reception for military attaches in Washington from all over the world. And this guy walks up, introduces himself. He was a Chinese military attache, perfect English, his second tour in Washington. So we had this great chat. And then he says, tell me about this new Pentagon press policy. And I explained it, just like I did to you, that we can't solicit information from anybody. We have to wait until the government hands us something, and only then can we report on it. He said, oh, just like us.

[Captain John Cordle]

Oh, no.

[Sean Ramasuram]

That's a grim story.

[Tom Bowman]

Very grim.

[Sean Ramasuram]

What kinds of stories do you think the Department of Defense doesn't want people like you reporting on right now?

[Tom Bowman]

I think what's going on in Secretary Hegseth's office, there's been a lot of turmoil, a lot of firings. When Hegseth first came in, he almost immediately fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General CQ Brown.

[Pete Hegseth]

Not the right man for the moment.

[Tom Bowman]

And also Admiral Lisa Franchetti, who the top officer in the Navy. CQ Brown was the second African American to hold the jobs of chairman after Colin Powell, and Lisa Franchetti was the first woman to run the Navy.

[Rabindran]

Democrats have labeled the Pentagon slashings as

[Unidentified Military Supporter]

the Friday Night Massacre.

[Rabindran]

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth once called Brown a DEI hire.

[Pete Hegseth]

The rationale for me has been straightforward. It's nearly impossible to change a culture with the same people who helped create or even benefited from that culture.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Can you give us a sense of just how many black and or women officers have been either fired or had their promotions denied?

[Tom Bowman]

We don't have the total number. I would say it's for both black officers and women. It's probably several dozen, maybe even more from all the services. So from the Marine Corps, the Navy, the Air Force, the Army, they've been either fired again or denied promotions again. No reason given. But what we do know is Secretary Hegseth, in his writings, has questioned whether, you know, women officers or black officers got their jobs because of their color, their skin, or their gender.

[Pete Hegseth]

We need moms, but not in the military, especially in combat units. Chapter 8, supporting D E I means soldiers die.

[Tom Bowman]

He's been talking about that, really, for years.

[Sean Ramasuram]

And is there any evidence that that's the case?

[Tom Bowman]

Not that I've seen. And I've gone through the. I have eight names of some of those who were fired, and you look through their Records, and clearly they're pretty stellar individuals. One of these officers comes from a military family. His brother also was an officer and his other brother is a senior officer. So you're looking at this, you look at his record, you look at the records of this guy and several others, there's nothing in there that would indicate that, well, this person doesn't deserve this. They all rose up the ranks, either commanding ships and then carrier groups or company command in the army and rising up to colonel and responsible jobs. So there is really no reason given.

[Sean Ramasuram]

So Hegseth is doing this thing where he thinks that, you know, there have been DEI hires in the upper ranks of the US Armed forces. And so he's trying to perhaps undo that. We don't really know a lot because he doesn't have to say much about it. And he's kicking out reporters from the Pentagon. But. But there's also a lot of controversy over suppressions of promotions or firings of, you know, white men. Like a guy named Chris Donahue. What's going on there?

[Tom Bowman]

Chris Donahue is a highly respected officer.

[Captain John Cordle]

One of the things that hasn't ever changed in combat is your adversary is going to change.

[Tom Bowman]

He worked with Delta Force, a secretive army unit. He worked with the CIA. He was commander of the 82nd Airborne Division. And also as the top army general in Europe, he worked very closely with Ukraine. What are their defensive needs? How much more equipment and money do they need? Again, very highly respected.

[Sean Ramasuram]

At just 56, General Donahue, a former Delta Force commander, had been expected to serve for years to come.

[Rabindran]

He was widely considered an army rising star and a potential candidate for Army Chief of Staff.

[Tom Bowman]

I think people came to know him because he was the last officer out of Afghanistan. There's this grainy, greenish picture of him getting on the helicopter. And what we do know is the Pentagon is investigating that hazard, that disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. Kabul fell and everybody was at the airport. It was pandemonium. So they're doing an investigation. It's expected to come out sometime next month on the anniversary of the withdrawal some five years ago. And the sense is that, you know, CD Donahue may. They may find fault with him in that investigation. And so as a result of, you know, do you want this guy you found fault with to have another four star job? But again, we're not getting any reasons why these people are either fired or not given another job.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Pete Hegseth obviously answers to the President of the United States, but is Congress noticing these firings and taking any action?

[Tom Bowman]

Yeah, I think they are. And I think when the army chief of staff, Randy George, was fired, that really roiled Congress, I think. But both Democrats and Republicans thought he was doing a really good job.

[Unidentified Military Supporter]

General George, let's talk about a guy who's a patriot, somebody who every single person here in this dais and down there in that audience and out there in this world has huge admiration for. Why did he get fired?

[Captain John Cordle]

Secretary Hagseth, I respect you. I do want, you know, I disagree with the firing of General George.

[Tom Bowman]

And now there's a push on Capitol Hill and the defense bill to put language in that basically says, listen, if you fire a senior officer or pull someone off the promotion list, you have to give a reason, a written reason, exactly why you're doing that. So keep an eye on that. I know a House member is putting that into the defense bill will likely have language in the Senate, too. So that could change things. It could force Hegseth to explain why he is doing some of these firings and pulling people off the promotion list.

[Sean Ramasuram]

It sounds like the kinds of positions that aren't being filled by people of color, by women, by established white men are very important. So if he's not promoting the people that he's firing or suppressing, who's getting these jobs? Because surely we want people to have these jobs.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, you know, there's still very talented officers who are getting these jobs. But I think one of the things Hegseth is looking for is loyalty.

[Pete Hegseth]

We all serve at the pleasure of the president every single day.

[Tom Bowman]

Nobody questioning me. Just do what you're told, right? Maybe not offer your best military advice. So there is a concern that people getting these jobs may have less experience or may, you know, their one attribute may be, I'm loyal to Secretary Hegseth, and that's not the way it's supposed to be. Right. You're supposed to be independent. You're supposed to be giving your best military advice to either secretary of defense or the president. So there is a concern among the military leaders, retired and those still on active duty that the people getting these jobs will have less experience than, let's say, a Randy George or particularly C.D. donahue. Less experience and either loyal to Secretary Hagseth or afraid to give their best military advice or afraid to push back. That's the concern. And one officer I spoke with said, you know, it may take a generation to make this thing better, to bring some of these people up who really deserve the job as opposed to just some loyalty test. And it's not only I hear it within the active duty military. But even the retired military, they're pretty upset about it. And some are speaking out. Some are reluctant to speak out because they don't want to be brought back in active duty and court martialed. There's this one senior officer. I was doing a story last year with a couple of colleagues and I called this retired guy up. I found out he was involved in this policy in the Biden administration. I said, hey, you know, come on over to npr. We'll talk about what's going on. He said, tom, there's no way I'm going over to npr. Somebody may see me walking in.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Wow.

[Tom Bowman]

So he had to come to my house in Alexandria, sit around my dining room table and talk about some of these issues. He's retired.

[Sean Ramasuram]

A retired guy who's not afraid to speak up when Today Explains Back.

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[Sean Ramasuram]

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[Tom Bowman]

This is Today Explained. This is.

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You're listening to this is TODAY Explained Today Explain.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Captain John Cordle served for three decades in the Navy and he's openly upset about how Secretary Pete Hegseth is meddling with the promotions process in the US Armed Forces.

[Captain John Cordle]

So I've sat a few of these boards and talked to people that have, and it's a fairly it's a very robust process and very well established process for decades. So here's what happens. First of all, you figure out who has to go before the board. These are Navy captains. These are folks who have been in the Navy for 24 to 28 years. They have done an O5 command tour at sea. They've done an OH6 command tour at sea. They've done a Pentagon tour. They've done a joint tour. They've really done the hard jobs to get promoted and to be eligible. Those are things you have to do to get in the room. To really have a chance of promotion. You have to bend the best, right? You have to have combat experience. You have to be number one of a peer group. And so, you know, that's who? These people? It's merit, right? We talk about merit based. Well, there is no more merit based process in the board process. Now the Secretary of the Navy signs out a letter called a precepts letter. And in that letter there's an interesting paragraph. He says, you are building the future of the Navy. You are choosing the leadership of the Navy. I hand picked you to do this job. And your one criteria is pick the most qualified officers. And then there's a bit of boilerplate stuff in there, but at the end of the day, that's what this is about. And so these admirals, these flag officers handpicked, a dozen of them or so, go to Millington, Tennessee. They're sequestered for about a week. They study the records, they start voting, and then they just call down the list from probably 150 down to 70 to an eventual list of 30, 31, I believe in this case. And they send that up to the Secretary of the Navy via the Chief of Naval Operations, the four star Admiral. And that goes from the Secretary of the Navy to the Secretary of Defense, and then it goes over to Congress. And so, I mean, this is an extremely rigorous process where they've handpicked everybody involved. And so at that point is kind of where the wheels came off when it went from the Navy to the Secretary of Defense.

[Sean Ramasuram]

And how do people in the military feel about the Secretary of Defense sort of bypassing this rigorous process that you're describing.

[Captain John Cordle]

The hardest part about this is the lack of transparency, right? So there's a lot of speculation. And even what I said is somewhat, I'm just extrapolating other data points into the idea, which, which has not been refuted, that he did remove those names. Of course, he hasn't shared the reason that he moved them. So you have to kind of look at other data from the other wards and things. So no, the things I'm hearing from service members are, first of all, they're disappointed, they're discouraged, they feel disenfranchised. One said, I think very compelling. She says, you know, it doesn't matter how hard I work, how good I am, what, what paper I get, whether my captain gives me a good fitness report, whether I'm the number one officer, I'm going to have my name removed from the list anyway because I'm a woman. One black officer friend of mine said, look, I've told my two sons that now's not a good time to join the Navy. One female officer said, it's a dangerous time to be in the military. And One sent me a note that she had been ordered by her senior flag officer not to speak about this to anyone. And so there's fear. I think that's probably the number one thing that's out there. But there's a sense of hopelessness and a sense of helplessness that should I really do the sacrifice? The hard jobs that are out there, that's necessary to advance when it doesn't matter. I think a great quote that I got from one was, my genes and my chromosomes seem to matter more than my performance and my achievements. And to me, that's the antithesis of merit. That's the challenge that we have right now, is people are confused. And I think I had some other ones, senior officers have told me that they have been pulled aside and said, look, your name was on this website. You have no more upward mobility. And so this has repercussions that go far beyond just the sport.

[Sean Ramasuram]

I mean, you talk about people feeling demoralized. It feels comparable to how people in the National Guard, who I don't know are harassing unhoused people in D.C. might feel, or people who work for the Centers for Disease Control might feel. What to you is different about demoralizing our armed forces?

[Captain John Cordle]

When you're in the military, that becomes your identity, right? I think for a lot of folks, and you're invested in loyalty to the organization, loyalty to the Navy, loyalty to the country. And so you have to be pushed pretty hard to sort of decide that that's not the place for me anymore. And a lot of folks are looking at this, and I've talked to a lot that say, look, it's tough, but, I mean, we've had ancestors that were tougher. Senator Stennis prevented black people from coming into the Naval Academy for years, Right? Like decades. There used to be complete segregation in the military. So, I mean, we've come a long, long way, and there's some hope. You know, I just keep my head down for a couple years. Maybe this will change. But the other thing is, I mean, we're fighting a war, right? I mean, the. The very women and minorities who are being questioned for their loyalty, integrity, and capability are captains of warships, they're flying airplanes, they're getting shot down in Iraq. And so that's where their focus is. You know, when you. Someone said to me, well, the junior folks don't care about this. Well, they probably don't, because they have to keep the motors running and the guns firing. The captain of a ship has to focus on war fighting. They're not watching you know, CNN or NPR every night to see what the latest development is. And, you know, are these flag officers going to get promoted or not? But the long term repercussions are pretty significant.

[Sean Ramasuram]

So does that mean that you don't think that things will just return to normal in 2028 when, you know, Jon Ossoff becomes president or whatever happens?

[Captain John Cordle]

Well, I think, I think this is just my opinion. Regardless of what administration comes in, I think the rudder will swing back a little bit because this is really driven by one person. And so if that person changes, then everything else will change. Right? So I think, yes, I believe there's a chance. I think my fear is that we're setting a precedent now that there'll be another purge. If there's, if another, if a Democratic administration comes in and says, oh, you fired everybody for following the rules in the last administration, so now we're going to fire everybody for following. Now it becomes the apolitical military. It's never completely apolitical, but it's pretty dire. I spent 30 years. I had four, I think, six administrations, three Democrat, three Republican. I didn't care. I did my job and I was fine. And I think that, that, that's the, that's the dangerous press. The other thing is the admiralty Corps is already 95% white male. You know, four stars is 10 of 10. And so it's not going to be long until there are no female admirals in the Navy by the end of his administration. And that sets up a precedent where the leadership of the military is different than the people that they're leading. And to me, that's a very dangerous place to be.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Pete Hegseth might not be advertising that he doesn't want to promote women and black people in the military, but he's certainly talking about how he thinks DEI is ruining the military. It's just, I guess, a question of what words he's using. Is there any evidence that diversity has harmed our lethality, the thing he cares about most? Seemingly, Absolutely not.

[Captain John Cordle]

I mean, there have been studies done, but, you know, how do you compare that? Because there is no all male force or all white force to compare their performance with what we have. Whether you like it or not, we have a diverse force. And look at what we're doing. I mean, strategically, we can talk differently, but what's going on in Iran right now? The Navy's kicking butt, right? I mean, we're knocking down missiles left and right. We're doing amazing things. Those sailors are out there for a year at a time. We are a lethal force right now. And we were when I was in, and we have been the whole time. And so the sad thing is, it's really. It's so unnecessary. Right. You could have a lethal force and be inclusive.

[Sean Ramasuram]

You spent 30 years in the Navy. I believe that's more time than Pete Hegseth served his country. Was this something that everyone was always talking about, like, hey, did you hear that woman got promoted? Did you hear that black captain got promoted? Was this something that was irking your fellow service members?

[Captain John Cordle]

You know, the pendulum swings back and forth. You know, back there was affirmative action in the day, there was Admiral Zumwalt. I don't know if you're familiar with Bud Zumwalt, but he did a lot to bring in. He brought back beards, he brought back sideburns, he brought back ponytails because he said, you know, we have to stop minimizing and marginalizing minorities and women. Every time that happens, there's a backlash. There's a backlash to the fact that Obama was president.

[Tom Bowman]

Right.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Very log backlash.

[Tom Bowman]

It feels like, thanks, Obama.

[Captain John Cordle]

You see these waves. And so. And every time that there's a. There's some folks that look like me that feel that if you get a. If you get ahead, then I get behind. I don't feel that way, and I never have. But. But I think that feeling is out there. And sure, there were those. I've talked to people this week. They were like, hey, I was up for this promotion and a black person got it. And we all. And, you know, we all know, well, maybe, but I don't know what that person's qualifications were. I don't really know what went on inside the room. So I. No, there's always going to be a backlash. I think when you try to lift one group up, it's always seen, well, now you're putting somebody else down. There's certainly people that feel that way. But I think we've come a long way in the service over the years, and I think we were making a lot of progress. And it's kind of heartbreaking to see that sort of being ripped apart.

[Sean Ramasuram]

But do you think it gets put back together?

[Captain John Cordle]

I think so. You know, we've been around 250 years. We're pretty darn resilient. We've been through civil wars and civil rights. And, you know, one of my friends who's in his 80s, he said, you know, this is nothing compared to what I've seen. Right. And so, yeah, I think that the ship will ride itself I think, you know what, justice bends, history bends towards justice, and, or something like that. And so, no, I think this will right itself. I think there's enough good people in the Navy that'll wear this. It'll stick around, weather the storm and come out the other end. We're focused on war fighting. We're not focused on this. If the Navy can if the military can stay less political and just do their job, then I think we'll be fine.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Captain Cordell wrote an op ed for the Military Times about Hegsets firings and meddling with promotions. You can find [e-mail] you can find and support Tom Bowman's work at npr.org Miles Bryan produced our show today. Aman Al Saadi edited. Gabriel Donatov was on fax. David Tadashore and Patrick Boyd were on the mix. I'm Sean Ramasuram, and this is TODAY Explained.