"Abolish ICE"

Summary

Today, Explained — "Abolish ICE"

Date: January 26, 2026
Hosts: Noel King, Leigh Ann Caldwell, Jay Patrick Coolikin
Podcast: Today, Explained by Vox

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Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained confronts the fallout from a series of fatal encounters between immigration enforcement agents and protesters/observers in Minneapolis. The hosts and guests dissect local, federal, and political reactions, examine the deepening crisis of confidence in law enforcement, and illuminate how these events are reverberating through Congress and the upcoming debate over funding for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), specifically Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). With emotions running high and the political landscape shifting, the episode helps unpack the call to "abolish ICE" and the blurred boundaries of state and federal authority.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shootings in Minneapolis: What Happened and Why It Matters

• Opening: The episode begins by recounting the recent deaths of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy at the hands of federal agents. Initial federal statements painted the two Minnesota protesters as dangerous radicals, but emerging evidence and video footage complicated that narrative.
• Jay Patrick Coolikin (Minnesota Reformer):
  • Expresses the intensity and unpredictability of covering these events:
    "It's been exhausting and exhilarating and at times depressing and debilitating. I've never quite encountered a story like this with so many moving pieces..." (01:59)
  • Notes the community's response ranges from anger and heartbreak to bravery and solidarity. Parents are organizing to protect children, neighborhoods collaborate to warn each other about ICE presence.
  • Cautions, however, that the wave of activism is tempered by trauma and fear from the recent violence.
    "I talked to a volunteer yesterday who used the word demoralized...It takes considerable physical courage to actually go out..." (03:51)

Notable Quotes

• Noel King: "You see people being really brave and I wonder which of those emotions...is surfacing the most right now?" (02:56)
• Jay Patrick Coolikin: "I think it's bravery. You see people doing things that I don't think they expected of themselves." (03:08)

2. Breaking Down the Alex Preddy Incident

• Incident Recap: Alex Preddy, described as law-abiding and a concealed carry permit holder, was recording federal agents and attempted to intervene when a woman was pushed. He was shot after being disarmed, contradicting official claims he posed a lethal threat.
• Narrative Conflict: Federal spokespeople, including Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino, swiftly labeled Preddy's actions as an attack and claimed he incited a riot.
  • "During this operation, an individual approached U.S. Border Patrol agents with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun...he violently resisted." (06:06)
  • Coolikin counters: "There's no evidence of that...These people prefer to be called observers...they were recording and observing, which they're allowed to do." (06:23)
• Loss of Credibility: The administration's early, aggressive public statements are now backfiring, eroding trust—not only among progressives but also some Republicans and independents.

Notable Quotes

• Jay Patrick Coolikin: "The video is pretty clear that none of those things are true. And I think that's absolutely destroying the administration's credibility..." (07:38)

3. Federal vs. Local Authority: The Breakdown

• There’s deep conflict between federal and state authorities. Local police tried to intervene in the federal probe but were rebuffed despite a judicial warrant.
• Local Law Enforcement's Stance: Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O’Hara publicly criticized federal tactics.
• Legal Front: A federal judge is considering if current federal deployments violate Minnesota’s sovereignty under the 10th Amendment. Coolikin suggests such challenges are long shots but symbolically notable.

Notable Quotes

• Jay Patrick Coolikin: "It's a conflict between law enforcement agencies I think we have not seen in quite a long time, especially publicly..." (08:23)

4. Economic Powerhouses Weigh In

• After initial silence, state business leaders released a carefully neutral statement calling for calm. This was perceived by some Democrats as a betrayal—there’s “no neutrality in this situation.”
• Indicated business community discomfort and possible cracks in the administration’s support base.

5. Congressional Fallout: DHS Funding and the "Abolish ICE" Movement

• Leigh Ann Caldwell (Puck News):

  • The Senate vote on DHS funding was expected to pass until outrage over the shootings shifted numerous Democrats to oppose further funding for ICE, echoing calls to 'abolish ICE.'
    "Democrats are not going to fund that. We cannot fund a Department of Homeland Security that is murdering American citizens." (18:13)
  • Some Dems have proposed the "Melt ICE Act" to defund the agency; others are calling to impeach DHS Secretary Kristi Noem instead.

• Democratic Fractures: While most Dems stop short of calling for ICE’s abolition, the crisis has forced even moderates to support greater accountability or significant changes.

• Republican Divisions: Fraying unity among Republicans, especially those in swing districts. Some now suggest ICE should step back from Minnesota.

  • "ICE should leave Minnesota and it should be up to local officials to deal with how it wants to address immigration." (20:58)

Notable Quotes

• Noel King: "Are any Republican lawmakers changing the way that they talk about ICE in light of what happened this weekend?" (20:06)
• Leigh Ann Caldwell: "It's been really interesting because Republicans have mostly...been in lockstep with this administration for the most part. But after this weekend, we're starting to see some signs...very uncomfortable with this." (20:15)

6. Trump Administration & Power Struggles

• President Trump announces sending border czar Tom Homan to Minneapolis, signaling a potential rift within DHS and further uncertainty for Kristi Noem.

Notable Quotes

• Leigh Ann Caldwell: "Could there could mean potential trouble for Kristi Noem, that she is being sidelined." (23:05)

7. Looming Government Shutdown and Political Calculus

• Symbolic Stakes: Although most ICE funding won't be cut off even in a shutdown (because of previous appropriations), Democrats are using the threat of shutdown as leverage for accountability and protest.
• The public outcry and visible suffering in Minneapolis have emboldened Democrats to take harder stances than in past shutdown showdowns.

Notable Quotes

• Leigh Ann Caldwell: "This time, though, Democrats are so outraged and so furious that even the people who don't like government shutdowns...want to push this issue, even if it leads perhaps to a government shutdown." (23:58)
• Noel King: "If Democrats do shut the government down...does that fix the situation? Does that mean the masked men leave the streets?" (25:38)
• Leigh Ann Caldwell: "Actually, no, it does not...in large part, this is symbolic when it comes to ICE..." (25:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Context | |-------------|-------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:59 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “It's been exhausting and exhilarating and at times depressing and debilitating...so many moving pieces...” | | 03:08 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “I think it's bravery. You see people doing things that I don't think they expected of themselves.” | | 06:23 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “There's no evidence of that...the idea that there was some sort of riot going on is not true.” | | 07:38 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “The video is pretty clear that none of those things are true...destroying the administration's credibility...” | | 08:23 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “It's a conflict between law enforcement agencies...we have not seen in quite a long time, especially publicly.” | | 18:13 | Jay Patrick Coolikin | “We cannot fund a Department of Homeland Security that is murdering American citizens.” | | 20:58 | Leigh Ann Caldwell | “ICE should leave Minnesota and it should be up to local officials to deal with how it wants to address immigration.” | | 23:05 | Leigh Ann Caldwell | “Could there could mean potential trouble for Kristi Noem, that she is being sidelined.” | | 23:58 | Leigh Ann Caldwell | “Democrats are so outraged and so furious...they want to push this issue, even if it leads perhaps to a government shutdown.” | | 25:53 | Leigh Ann Caldwell | “Actually, no, it does not...in large part, this is symbolic when it comes to ICE...” |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:43 Introduction of Jay Patrick Coolikin, Minnesota Reformer
• 02:56 Community responses & emotions after the shootings
• 04:45 Breakdown of Alex Preddy's shooting
• 06:00 Disputing federal law enforcement’s narrative
• 08:03 Tension and conflict: federal law enforcement vs. local police
• 09:37 Legal challenges over federal deployments and 10th Amendment
• 10:35 Economic leaders’ statement and business community response
• 16:55 Senate debates DHS funding — initial bipartisan outlook
• 18:06 Democrats’ response to ICE — toughening stance post-shooting
• 19:21 Calls to impeach DHS Secretary Kristi Noem
• 20:06 Republican reactions & cracks in party unity
• 22:52 Trump sends Tom Homan to Minneapolis: significance of move
• 23:41 Looming government shutdown: lessons & stakes
• 25:38 Symbolism vs. substance in government shutdown threat

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Conclusion

This episode captures a moment of historic crisis, revealing how violence involving federal agents has upended both local communities and national politics. The dedication of Minneapolis residents, the unraveling of official narratives, fractures in both political parties, and the high-stakes fight over DHS/ICE funding add up to a potent, rapidly evolving story. The “Abolish ICE” debate, often considered too radical by many establishment Democrats, is newly energized by events on the ground and a broad-based sense of outrage—signaling a new chapter in immigration and federal-state relations.

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For listeners seeking a comprehensive, on-the-ground and inside-the-Beltway view of America’s escalating immigration enforcement crisis, this episode is essential.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Renee Goode's last words. That's fine, dude. I'm not mad at you. To ICE agents, one of whom killed her. Alex Preddy's last words, according to bystanders, Are you okay? To a woman he tried to shield from Border Patrol agents after their deaths, federal officials painted the two Minnesota protesters as radicals.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

This looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement.

[Noel King]

If you look at what the definition of domestic terrorism is, it completely fits the situation on the ground. The feds, in part because they spoke before investigations even began, have lost control of their narrative. President Trump seems to have copped on. He said today he's sending his border czar, Tom Homan, to Minneapolis and that Homan will report directly to him. Homan famously dislikes Greg Bevino, the Border Patrol chief who has, along with Kristi Noem, become the public face of the catastrophe in Minneapolis. Coming up on Today Explained ice lies and videotape.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

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[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

This is TODAY Explained. My name is Jay Patrick Coolikin. I'm the editor in chief of Minnesota Reformer, which is a small, nonprofit online news outlet covering podcast politics and policy in Minnesota.

[Noel King]

What's it been like running cover to this story?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

It's been exhausting and exhilarating and at times depressing and debilitating. I've, it's just, I've never quite encountered a story like this with so many moving pieces and that's evolving so quickly. And then bam, you get hit with something new that is catastrophic and causes you to really shift focus.

[Noel King]

I was watching video, you know, here in D.C. of what happened this weekend and of the reaction afterward. And, you know, you see people being really angry, really heartbroken.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

It feels like right now that the people are being backed in a corner because we are being invaded on our state. I'm 70 years old, angry.

[Noel King]

Stop.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

Look out.

[Noel King]

You see people being Really, I don't. You see people being really brave and I wonder which of those emotions, which of the emotions do you think is surfacing the most right now?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

I think it's bravery. You know, you see people doing things that I don't think they expected of themselves. I don't think they knew that this is something they could do and that so much of it is around the togetherness of it, that we're kind of all in it together. And I think that can fuel people's courage.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

We see parents organizing group chats, working.

[Noel King]

In shifts to protect families at daycares and school drop offs, neighborhoods who are.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

Collectively alerting each other to the presence.

[Noel King]

Of ice with honks and whistles. I want to show you what struck me the most when we first got out onto the scene is this effort that has now popped up of neighbors and volunteers coming together, these people.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

But I also don't want to minimize the impact of Saturday's killing. In particular, I talked to a volunteer yesterday who used the word demoralized. And that's certainly understandable and obviously frightening too. It takes considerable physical courage to actually go out and do this because it's become so unpredictable. What could happen? As we've seen in two weeks, as Minneapolis Police Chief Brian o' Hara pointed out on some Sunday shows yesterday, people have had enough. This is the third shooting now in less than three weeks. The Minneapolis Police Department went the entire year last year recovering about 900 guns from the street, arresting hundreds and hundreds of violent offenders. And we didn't shoot anyone.

[Noel King]

Let's talk about Alex Preddy and what happened this weekend. You've seen the video. Most of us, I would imagine, have seen the video. What do we know about why Alex Preddy was shot?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

Well, he appears to have been recording federal agents with his phone. Like it's become common. Everybody's doing it. And then he seems to try to intervene after a woman was pushed down by a federal agent. And then he gets into this scuffle with probably a half dozen federal agents. He is a law abiding concealed carry permit holder who was armed. And in this scuffle, they disarm him. And if you watch the video and various slow motion, you can see he's then shot after he's disarmed, despite the accounts of the federal officials that we heard almost immediately afterward. The fuck did you just do?

[Noel King]

Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino said Preddy was part of a riot. He was obstructing law enforcement.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

During this operation, an individual approached U.S. border Patrol agents with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun. The agents attempted to disarm the individual, but he violently resisted.

[Noel King]

What does the evidence show?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

There's no evidence of that. There's also been a kind of false impression that we're talking about protests. And I mean, it's not exactly wrong, but these people are actually what they prefer to be called as observers. And so the idea that there was some sort of riot going on is not true. They're just alerting people to the presence of federal officials, which they're allowed to do. They were recording and observing, which they're allowed to do. It turns out that the, the person they were looking for, the State Department of Corrections, put out a statement saying that apparently this guy was not the heinous criminal they were claiming. And furthermore, Bovino actually seemed to walk back his contention yesterday when he gave a much softer line. I wasn't there wrestling him myself. So I'm not going to speculate. I'm going to wait for that investigation to come. No, don't interrupt me. I'm going to wait till. That said, we're going to wait and find out what happens with the investigation. But that's sort of a little. Seems disingenuous a day after you call the. You say that the person was trying to engage in a massacre. Stephen Miller called him an assassin. And the video is pretty clear that none of those things are true. And I think that's absolutely destroying the administration's credibility, not just with the people you would expect that from, progressives and Democrats, but also some Republicans and certainly independents.

[Noel King]

There is, as you've pointed out, a very interesting dynamic right now in Minneapolis where you have federal officers, local police, and the local police do not seem to trust the Fed. So the question becomes, who is investigating what happened on Saturday? Who has the evidence? Who is trying to run down what happened here?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

Well, there's a really sharp conflict here. The state and local officials showed up on the scene with a judicial warrant and the Fed still did not allow them access. And so there's a court hearing today at 2 o' clock to sort all this out. But it's a conflict between law enforcement agencies I think we have not seen in quite a long time, especially publicly. We actually had a series of stories after George Floyd was murdered about the mpd, the Minneapolis Police Department's blue wall of silence. And from what I can tell, these past few weeks, it's really crumbled, at least as far as talking about other police agencies. Just not something you see. And yet Brian o' Hara, the MPD chief, is out there really hitting the federal law enforcement hard, and it's been pretty breathtaking. The problem is not that enforcement is happening. It's clearly the manner in which these things are happening. These tactics are very obviously not safe, and it is generating a lot of outrage and fear in the community.

[Noel King]

There is another thing that's going before a court in Minnesota today. A federal judge is going to consider the question of whether this deployment violates Minnesota's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment. What do you know about this legal challenge and what it might mean for ICE agents in the streets? Federal agents in the streets? Yeah.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

This one seems like a bit of a long shot. It seems to me the courts have given the executive branch wide latitude to enforce federal law. It's also interesting that the. The claim here is. It's. It's a civil rights claim, and yet the 10th amendment was used by Jim Crow and as a way to defend Southern state sovereignty during the civil rights movement. So it's an interesting turn of events on that front.

[Noel King]

I want to ask you about this statement that was signed by about 60, as I understand it, 60 CEOs. Minnesota has a lot of big companies, right? State is an economic powerhouse in some ways. And so there was this statement sent out kind of like calling for calm, even as people had been asking, like, where are the business leaders? Are they not saying anything? Do you feel like that statement does anything here? Do you feel like that statement comes down on one side or the other?

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

I think it was carefully crafted to be neutral, and it was taken by Democrats, including even the Democratic Farber Labor Party chair, as a betrayal, because there's no neutrality in this situation. But I think that it is an important signal to the Trump administration that they should start looking for a way out. You're right, though. They had been completely silent. We published a story a couple weeks ago, 10 days ago, making that very point. We called a bunch of these corporations and the lobby group that represents the biggest companies, and they had. They didn't even get back to us. I think they were. They were bruised by the George Floyd experience, where many of them made robust statements in support of DEI and racial equity. And of course, there was a backlash to that and then a backlash to the backlash. And so I think they. They chose silence. And at a certain point, that became untenable. So it's one of the signals to me that there is some cracks in the Trump armor.

[Noel King]

J. Patrick Culikin is editor in chief of the Minnesota Reformer. And speaking of cracks, President Trump said on Truth Social this afternoon that Minnesota's governor Tim Walz called him and they seem to be, quote, on a similar wavelength. Coming up, the Senate votes this week on whether to fund the Department of Homeland Security, including ICE and Border Patrol, and some Democrats say they're going to shut the government down again. Support for Today explained comes from Delete Me. Deleteme, I'm told, makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. What does it do? It does the heavy lifting, scrubbing your personal data from hundreds of websites, including the data brokers that sell you and your family's information. You sign up, you tell Delete Me what information you want gone. Delete Me experts handle the rest. It's not a one and done. DeleteMe keeps monitoring throughout the year, continually finding and removing any personal information that pops up back online. Our colleague Claire White has deleted herself.

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[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

This is TODAY Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King with Leighanne Caldwell. She's the chief Washington correspondent for Puck. All right, Leigh Ann, let's start here. The Senate is back in session this week and is going to vote on a package to fund transportation, Health and Human Services, and the Department of Homeland Security. Now, this bill passed the House last week and then what happened?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

Yeah, so obviously there was another tragic shooting of a US Citizen in Minneapolis. And what's interesting is that this bill, including the DHS funding, was expected to pass. You know, it only got it only got a little more than a handful of votes in a Democratic votes in the House. But the Senate was going most likely to move forward on this. It only needed about eight Democratic senators. It looked like it was going to get that. And then the shooting happened, obviously, the second shooting in a matter of weeks. And Democrats nearly unanimously in the Senate came out adamantly opposed to giving the Department of Homeland Security, especially ice, more money on the heels of this shooting.

[Noel King]

I am strongly opposed to more funding for ice. I was strongly opposed when they tripled their budget this summer.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

Well, I'm not giving ICE or Border Patrol another dime, given how this agency, these agencies are operating. Democrats are not going to fund that. We cannot fund a Department of Homeland Security that is murdering American citizens.

[Noel King]

Before the shooting this weekend, some Democrats in Congress had introduced a bill called the Melt Ice act, which would defund ice. As I understand it, where does the conversation around defunding or abolishing ICE stand at this moment?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

So Democrats, for the most part, the majority of Democrats, do not want to go there on this Abolish ICE movement. They think it's counterproductive. It plays into Republican talking points, especially when this was a big movement back in 2019 during Trump's first term. So what they would rather do is try to rein in this agency. But there's also additional conversations on impeaching DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. That is something that is becoming overwhelmingly popular among House Democrats.

[Noel King]

Today I am announcing that I'm joining over 100 Democrats and calling for the impeachment of Kristi Noem for criminal acts.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

And violation of the Constitution.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

She needs to be held accountable, and.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

She needs to know that Congress is watching.

[Noel King]

But more importantly, people are watching, the public is watching.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

She has created an absolute disaster in this agency. It's got to stop.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

And even a few Senate Democrats are saying the same. You know, Democrats are obviously in the minority with little power to do this, but that's where they would rather have the conversation rather than around defunding or abolishing ice.

[Noel King]

Let me ask you about the Republicans. Are any Republican lawmakers changing the way that they talk about ICE in light of what happened this weekend?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

Yeah, you know, it's been really interesting because Republicans have mostly, very publicly anyway, been in lockstep with this administration for the most part. But after this weekend, we're starting to see some signs of Republicans being very uncomfortable with this. You have Representative James Comer, who's head of the Oversight Committee.

[Jay Patrick Coolikin]

And if I were President Trump, I would almost think about, okay, if the mayor and the governor are going to put our ICE officials in harm's way and there's a chance of losing more, you know, innocent lives or whatever, then maybe go to another city and let the people of Minneapolis decide, do we want to continue to have all of these illegals?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

You know, it wasn't very graceful on how he said it, but he is essentially saying that ICE should leave Minnesota and it should be up to local officials to deal with how it wants to address immigration. There you have senators, including Dave McCormick, who put out a statement saying that it was a tragedy, that there perhaps should be some sort of investigation. You have Andrew Garberino, he is from New York. He could potentially have a very difficult re election race. He is the chair of the Homeland Security Committee. And he has called for top DHS officials, including Kristi Noem, to come testify before his committee. That is the first time we have seen any sort of oversight from Republicans or trying to do oversight from Republicans in this Congress.

[Noel King]

What does it mean that there are divisions here forming in the Republican Party?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

It means that this is actually becoming a big political liability for Republicans. We will see how Speaker Johnson, who has been in lockstep with this president and defended this president President day in and day out, how he deals with it, because he also wants to keep the Speaker's gavel. And that means that he has to defend and support his vulnerable Republican colleagues. But some of these Republican vulnerable colleagues are the ones who are becoming most uneasy with this as this is becoming a huge problem for them back home, putting Republicans in a very difficult spot. So these divisions are, are notable. And the question is, is, you know, what will they do with it and how far will they try to do something about it?

[Noel King]

If anything, President Trump said on Truth Social that he's going to send Tom Homan, his border czar, to Minnesota and that Homan will report directly to him. Is there any significance in that?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

I think absolutely there's significance. Tom Homan has been at odds with Kristi Noem. Tom Homan is a longtime veteran of dhs. And actually some of my sources in DHS at the beginning of this administration were happy that Tom Homan got that job. They think that he is. That he was the border czar, that he was the right person for that. He was mostly very respected within dhs. And so it was. Could there could mean potential trouble for Kristi Noem, that she is being sidelined.

[Noel King]

What we're talking about here ultimately is the potential of a partial government shutdown. We had another. We had another one not so long ago. And I wonder what you think the lessons of the last shutdown were for Democrats and whether any of them apply here.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because the, the last government shutdown, it was over health care. And even though it proved to be really good politically for Democrats, they turned the conversation to healthcare, an issue that is very good for them. It drew a ton of awareness to Republican opposition to extending these healthcare subsidies. The Democrats were still nervous and skittish and didn't know if it was the right strategy throughout, and many were very uncomfortable with it, even though they went along with it. This time, though, Democrats are so outraged and so furious that even the people who don't like government shutdowns and don't participate in them, like Senator Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada, want to push this issue, even if it leads perhaps to a government shutdown. They just believe that having masked roving federal law enforcement agents who are told that they have complete and full immunity with no repercussions and not even the the optics of some sort of investigation from the federal government when something goes wrong out on the street is something that Democrats think is unacceptable and worth worth using any sort of leverage they have. So the dynamics within the Democratic Party are much different. And while it was unclear previously in the last shutdown if they had the, the public on their side, the outrage, the public outrage on this right now seems to give them a lot of comfort in moving forward that they are on the right side of this.

[Noel King]

And a question that I imagine a lot of Americans are asking themselves right now, if Democrats do shut the government down until they get what they want on ICE on Border Patrol, does that fix the situation? Does that mean the masked men leave the streets, leave Minneapolis?

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

So that is such a great question because actually, no, it does not. I mean, well, we'll see. So let's remember that they are talking about, you know, ICE and government funding for ice, but the Republicans in their one big, beautiful bill, provided ICE and Border Patrol funding. So this is outside the normal appropriations process. So even if this government were the government were to shut down, funding for ICE would not be halted because it has been funded through a separate bill. So in large part, this is symbolic when it comes to ice. But on the other hand, what seems to be the best outcome is if Democrats can secure some sort of, you know, accountability or agreement from this administration when it comes to ice. Because if the administration doesn't want to enter into this shutdown. So, you know, I keep turning the conversation politically, even though this is a very real and deadly and important situation with ice. But the optics and the politics really matter because it's who has the upper hand and who can get what they want. And it seems like Republicans at this point might not be good for them to be arguing for a government shutdown by defending ICE in their tactics right now.

[Noel King]

Leeann Caldwell is the chief Washington correspondent for Puck News. Thanks so much, Leigh Ann.

[Leigh Ann Caldwell]

Thank you.

[Noel King]

Miles Bryan and Dustin DeSoto produced today's show with help from Arianna Espudu, Amina El Saadi edited David Tadashore and Bridger Dunigan engineered Andrea Lopez Crusado is our fact checker and I'm Noel King. It's Today explained.