Devin Gordon (4:04)

Go for the burn sweat.

Gerard Cole (4:06)

When I see the woman boxing with a robot, you hear grunting, you hear sounds of the robot's mechanics, you hear punching sounds. You hear all kinds of audio to make the scene come to life.

Joanna Stern (4:23)

Which is to say, it just took, like, a massive jump, this technology, because it just feels a lot more real.

Gerard Cole (4:32)

Yeah, it feels a lot more real. And I said, okay, well, what if we can see if we can actually tell a story here? We really wanted to see if that was possible, and we learned very quickly it is possible. It's just really hard and time consuming. The film itself is about my. If we want to say that I'm me in this film, getting a sort of a humanoid robot, and these robots were designed to make people and humans more efficient.

Devin Gordon (5:01)

Time for your coffee IV drip.

Gerard Cole (5:04)

Because I thought, okay, maybe we can have some fun playing off of this idea that AI is all about making us efficient in our jobs and in everything else. I'll let people watch, but the robot lives with me. We have some good times together. We have some not so good times together. He really wants me to keep working.

Devin Gordon (5:20)

My ultra sensitive microphones indicate you are not engaged in elimination activities and that.

Gerard Cole (5:26)

I can't ruin the end. But, you know, let's just say I Come out on top of the end.

Joanna Stern (5:31)

Wait, can you ruin the end? Mm.

Gerard Cole (5:35)

Okay, fine, I'll do it. But I don't know. It's not usually how it works with movie interviews, but, yeah, I mean, in the end.

Devin Gordon (5:43)

Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert.

Gerard Cole (5:46)

I get frustrated with this robot, and I had no other choice, but I have to reprogram him.

Devin Gordon (5:52)

Joanna, please don't do this.

Joanna Stern (5:55)

Oh, yeah.

Gerard Cole (5:57)

But I will say there was a lot of constraints to making this. And so you'll notice when you watch everybody, you'll see, like, the robot doesn't talk. Right? The robot has a voice, but it doesn't have mouth movements. And so that was one of the constraints we had. And you'll see I never talk. Like, my mouth never moves in the piece. Because we had that technical constraint. You can't really have the dialogue work very well between two people. You can't really make that consistent. And so when you watch with an eye for the technical constraints, you can really see, like. Oh, yeah. They kind of had to make something that was like this.

Joanna Stern (6:33)

Tell people exactly how you made this short film. What exactly are you doing to make this? Because this isn't like shooting a little short film on your phone where you hit record, you capture some footage, then you edit it.

Gerard Cole (6:46)

Yeah, no. And I'll take you through as simply as I can. But it is pretty complicated. So we decided we wanted to have two characters, me and I exist in real life, and this robot, which does not exist in real life. And so we created these digital versions of the characters. The robot NAMED MAX, or Optimax 5000, we created using an AI image generator called Midjourney. And so we kind of iterated in that we worked through, okay, what does he look like? What does he look like? And so we finally landed on some images we liked. As for me, I took a bunch of photos of myself, different angles. And so then we went into Runway, which is an AI video generation tool. And we uploaded those photos. And then we said, okay, create a scene where you see the robot working out alongside Joanna and make it in a suburban background with houses on a paved street. And so then the Runway would spit out what we would call the first frame of that. And so we'd have an image, and then we would take that image and we'd put it into veo, Google's tool, and say what we wanted the motion to look like. And here's where things got really complicated. And Gerard really did a lot of this work, but you really have to give the model very specific instructions. On what you want to be done. And so he worked alongside Google's Gemini, which is their large language model, to really craft detailed prompts of what we wanted the video to look like. And so these were long texts, I mean, like hundreds of words that you would put in with the photo and the text into Google vo, tell it what we'd wanted, and out we would get a bunch of videos and we'd pick from those videos what would look the best for the scene when your.

Joanna Stern (8:30)

Video dropped, what did people think of it?

Gerard Cole (8:37)

What was crazy was how mixed the reviews were. A lot of people wrote in saying they were blown away and they could not believe how real it looked. They could not. They laughed because we played a lot of bloopers. So there was a lot of people that really enjoyed watching this.

Joanna Stern (8:53)

Joanna is so good at doing these.

Devin Gordon (8:55)

And brings in the mainstream in such a great way.

Gerard Cole (8:58)

But then there was a very loud and vocal group that just hated this. Here are some of the reviews that I read on x or on TikTok. Wow, that was just awful, ugly, soulless, nonsensical garbage.

Devin Gordon (9:14)

This is an abomination and you should feel ashamed for making it.

Gerard Cole (9:18)

Absolute soulless. Shit.

Joanna Stern (9:20)

Wow. Shit from the butt. From the butt.

Gerard Cole (9:24)

That's my favorite.

Joanna Stern (9:25)

Why? Why are people so mad at your video?

Gerard Cole (9:30)

They're mad at AI Video. They're not mad at my AI Video. They're mad at AI video in general for existing. Can you trust what you see?

Joanna Stern (9:37)

Because people don't let you know they're using AI.

Gerard Cole (9:41)

Deepfakes and misinformation could get a serious upgrade.

Joanna Stern (9:45)

Synthetic video evidence might become harder to.

Gerard Cole (9:47)

Distinguish from the real thing. You can also see in the quality right now, it's not really Hollywood level.

Joanna Stern (9:53)

Is that where there's like a more practical use for this technology right now?

Gerard Cole (9:58)

That's the goal of many of these AI companies. Yeah. I mean, that's where it really gets interesting. So some will say, like, look, this is a moment to democratize video tools, right? Those folks who aspire to be filmmakers, well, they can now just do this. They can sit in front of their computer and they can make things that they once never would have been able to make before. But then you have the other side of this, where what might we see on the big screen that might actually be AI generated? And so we've seen a bunch of AI film studios and production houses start popping up. The goal is for the makers, the Googles, the runways of the world, to be working with Hollywood. Their hope is to start working with film studios. To generate stuff that will end up in the films we see on the big screen or the small screen, whatever you watch your Netflix on.

Joanna Stern (10:57)

You can watch Joanna Stern's short film at WSJ.com or on YouTube where it's called we tested Google, VO and Runway to create this AI film. It was wild. We're heading to Hollywood in a minute at Today Explained.

Devin Gordon (11:36)

It's impossible to find more time in.

Gerard Cole (11:38)

The day until now.

Devin Gordon (11:40)

With HubSpot's suite of AI powered tools you can get more done way faster, speed up your lead generation and create attention grabbing, lead driving, quota crushing campaigns in an instant. Which will give you more than enough time to listen to podcasts like this one. HubSpot Impossible Growth made impossibly easy get started today@HubSpot.com AI.

Gerard Cole (12:07)

Support for today's show comes from Bombas. Bombas wants to make your summertime in the sun a little more comfortable with socks that they say are perfect for your next marathon or just your next trip down to the bodega. Bombas says their running socks help Wick sweat, keep you cool and fight blisters. And they don't just stop at socks. Bombas says they also offer those white tees, those waterproof slides, and those sweat wicking mudans. Nisha Tichal is our colleague here at Vox and she's tried I am part of a whole family of Bombas wearers. My daughter, who's three also wears Bombas. She has several pairs in toddler kid sizes and they're great. The kids ones have little grips on them which is great because she runs around a lot so the grips help her to make sure she's not slipping on wood floors. So she's a fan too. Bombas also wants you to know about their mission, which is for every comfy pair you purchase, they say they donate another comfy pair to someone facing homelessness. You can head over to bombas.comexplained and use code EXPLAINED for 20% off your first purchase. That's b-bas.comexplained code EXPLAINED at checkout bombas.comexplained and Use the code Explained.

Joanna Stern (13:22)

Support for the show today comes from Jerry and Ben's nowhere to be seen. This is not them. Jerry is an app that says they can make finding the right car insurance a breeze from comparing quotes to getting you covered. Everything can be found in the Jerry app. Just answer a few quick questions and then they can instantly pull quotes from like over 50 top rated insurers. You guys, you can stop needlessly overpaying for car insurance. Jerry says drivers who save with Jerry save over $1300 a year on average. Before you renew your policy, you can download the Jerry app or head to Jerry. AI Explained in just a few minutes, you can compare quotes and coverages from up to 50 top insurers. Jerry says they make car insurance simple, smart. And finally, on your side, based on drivers who switched and saved with Jerry over the past 12 months, over 20% of drivers who switch with Jerry found a monthly premium of $87 or less. Not all drivers find savings. We come to this place today, explained.

Gerard Cole (14:34)

For magic, because we need that.

Joanna Stern (14:37)

Devin Gordon wrote a big piece titled what if AI is actually Good for Hollywood? For the New York Times Magazine late last year. We asked him, how dare you? Here's what he had to say.

Devin Gordon (14:49)

The premise and starting point was my sense that if you were listening to the discourse about AI in Hollywood, you would either hear that it was going to be the end of Hollywood and wipe out everyone's jobs and turn the future of cinema over to robots, or it was going to be the greatest creative unlocking magical wand ever handed to creative pill makers in the history of humankind. And I had also been hearing and reading these stories in places like the Hollywood Reporter. Everyone is using AI but they're scared to admit it.

Joanna Stern (15:39)

It's the dirty little secret. AI is being used for scripting, for shooting and producing movies.

Gerard Cole (15:44)

You go into a little booth that's 360 degree camera and you're asked to do 30 different expressions.

Devin Gordon (15:54)

And so I was like, okay, well, what are people actually using it for? What is actually happening with AI So I started with a visual effects company that works with AI called Metaphysic. The reason why I wanted to start with them is because everything I kept hearing was that when AI descended upon Hollywood, it was going to hit visual effects first and hardest. So I wanted to start with a visual effects company and this particular special effects company, visual effects company Metaphysic. Their specialty was sort of taking the deepfake logic of digitally creating a photorealistic copy of a famous person's face and applying that to all sorts of aspects of the filmmaking industry, from special effects to dubbing to reshoots, animation, aging and de aging, etc. And so I went and spent time with them. And one of the first things they did was they sat me down in a chair, pointed a camera at me, and there was a television screen opposite me and my face was on the screen. And then the metaphysic guy clickety clacked a little bit on his keyboard and Suddenly, my face had Tom Hanks's face sort of pasted on top of mine.

Joanna Stern (17:18)

Tom Hanks, the actor?

Devin Gordon (17:19)

Yes, Tom Hanks, the actor.

Joanna Stern (17:20)

My mom always said life was like a box of chocolates.

Devin Gordon (17:26)

I could see my face. It was still me. And if I talked, it was moving. But I was also, very recognizably, Tom Hanks.

Gerard Cole (17:33)

You never know what you're gonna get.

Devin Gordon (17:35)

The reason I was Tom Hanks is because the film project that Metaphysic was then working on was a movie called Here that starred Tom Hanks and Robin Wright. Hey, dad, like you to meet Margaret.

Gerard Cole (17:49)

Nice to meet you, Margaret.

Joanna Stern (17:50)

Nice to meet you.

Devin Gordon (17:51)

Mr. Young was directed by Robert Zemeckis. The team from Forrest Gump reunited again using AI technology to a degree that it had not been deployed in a Hollywood movie before. In fact, it was central to the making of it.

Joanna Stern (18:09)

She's pregnant.

Devin Gordon (18:11)

She's what?

Joanna Stern (18:12)

She's pregnant. Margaret is pregnant. You're just 18 years old.

Devin Gordon (18:16)

In this case, they were using it to enable Tom Hanks to play the same character from the age of 18 to the age of 80. And the way they were able to do that was using metaphysics, AI technology. And one of the reasons why I wanted to focus on this movie here, which is not a particularly good movie, I wouldn't necessarily recommend you Netflix and chill with it. Get the out of my house. But I was interested in this movie because this movie is probably the first mainstream Hollywood movie that would not have existed without AI technology. And the reason why is because it's effectively a small, domestic, emotional, serious drama. The only reason why this movie could happen is because the visual effects that it required were cheap enough with AI, it's as good as CGI now, and it's a lot cheaper and it's a lot faster, and it gives directors a lot more creative control on the set. So that's why in the visual effects space, there's such this expectation that AI is very quickly and already is, in a lot of ways, transforming that industry in good ways, but also in ways that's probably going to cost a lot of people their jobs.

Joanna Stern (19:34)

I mean, and let's talk about all those people for a moment here. Let's start with Tom Hanks, because one thing that really surprised me about your piece was that you asked Tom Hanks how he felt about the potential for AI to enable him to star in movies 100 years after his death.

Devin Gordon (19:50)

Yeah.

Joanna Stern (19:50)

And he was like, bring it on. Right.

Devin Gordon (19:54)

Surprisingly unconcerned.

Joanna Stern (19:56)

Wow.

Devin Gordon (19:56)

Just sort of like, well, let's just get the paperwork sorted out.

Joanna Stern (19:59)

Amazing.

Devin Gordon (20:00)

And I was a little surprised, to be honest, about how cavalier he was, for instance. I mean, it isn't easy to imagine a scenario. Maybe not in the Hanks family. I'm sure the Hanks family is going to. I trust Chet.

Joanna Stern (20:14)

Do you trust Chet?

Gerard Cole (20:16)

Big up. Big up.

Joanna Stern (20:17)

The whole island. Massive. It's your boy Chet coming straight from that Golden Globes you want?

Devin Gordon (20:23)

No, but I do trust Colin. I trust Colin.

Joanna Stern (20:25)

I trust Colin.

Devin Gordon (20:26)

I trust Colin.

Joanna Stern (20:27)

You always want to work with good people.

Devin Gordon (20:29)

And obviously, I think my dad's good people, but, okay, what about Colin's grandkids? And they're down on their luck, and all of a sudden, 100 years from now, Tom Hanks's legend, his imagery is being sullied because he's being, you know, his image is being used to make bucks in porn or whatever. He's not thinking that far in advance, let's put it that way. I think the takeaway for me, no shots at Tom Hanks was that it did sort of reflect a class divide in AI worriedness and how worried you should be.

Joanna Stern (21:06)

Right. Because not everyone is Tom Hanks. I mean, what did you learn about all the people in VFX or, you know, costumes or makeup or what have you that are terrified about what's about to happen to their industry?

Devin Gordon (21:21)

You know, one of the things that I kept hearing on the makeup front with AI, is a director going to have to have a makeup department do a character's makeup every single day? Or can the makeup department do it once, right at the start of the production? That becomes a file that gets saved and mapped onto the character's face later. And now, instead of having a makeup artist for the entire run of the set, you've only got the makeup artist for one day. You go from makeup artists being paid by the day to some sort of almost license or copyright for how many days that that makeup work gets used. Right. The entire economics of the industry has to change. Does it mean that we're not going to need makeup artists? Of course not. We're still very much going to need makeup artists. They're going to need them as much as ever. But how they work and how they get compensated is going to radically transform. And you could go through every department in the filmmaking process, and each of them would have different ways in which AI will disrupt how they work. The thing about all these ways is that none of them are as grandiose as the worst of our imagining. Right. You know, the. The people who were the most skeptical about AI's ability to overtake human creativity that I spoke with are the people who understand AI the most and use it the most. They understand its limitations and also how to best use it, like they understand how to use this tool. When we're talking generative AI, when we're talking creative orientations or applications of AI, they understand how indispensable the human mind is to that equation. It just doesn't work without it. The notion, the theory, who knows if this will come to pass? But the positive theory, the flip side of this, is that AI lowers the barrier of entry to so many more films, that even though the size of the crew and production is shrinking because of AI, the amount of product that can exist grows. Because more people can afford to make more movies. You can accuse that of being sanguine and overly sunny. I would say in. In the defense of the sanguine people, the indie film movement does provide an interesting parallel here. Right? When filmmaking went from very, very expensive, limited film in the 90s to small handheld digital filmmaking where anybody could make cinema quality movies, all of a sudden you did have a lot more movies, right? You had a lot more movies being made for a lot less money. So there is a test case, right? Can AI do that? Well, I feel like in some ways that brings us back to our friend Joanna Stern at the Wall Street Journal to her haters out there. I think you're missing the point. I don't think that Joanna Stern is in any way trying to make a film that could go air on ABC or air in the movie theater. What she's trying to demonstrate is how easy it is for even someone like her to effectively sit there and make something that looks at the worst a bad knockoff. But look at all the things that she can do without having anybody.

Joanna Stern (25:06)

Exactly. Or experience any money or experience. Yeah, right, right.

Devin Gordon (25:11)

And now take that capacity out of her hands and put it in the hands of people who actually do this for a living. Right. And the question is, how dangerous does this get? How many people is this going to replace? And I just don't think we know. I don't think we really know. In some ways, what Joanna's film leaves me with is both fear and relief.

Joanna Stern (25:51)

Read Devin Gordon's great piece on Hollywood and AI@nytimes.com this episode was made by humans. Their names Peter Balan on Rosen and Gabrielle Burbay, Aminah Al Saadi and Abishai Artsy, Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter. And I'm Sean Ramisviram. And here are some more humans who didn't work on today's show. Noel King, Miranda Kennedy, Jolie Myers, Hadi Mwagdi, Miles Bryan, Victoria Chamberlain, Devin Schwartz, Denise Guerra. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Laura Bullard is our senior researcher. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc. The show is a part of Vox. You can listen to this podcast ad free by signing up for a membership@vox.com members right now you can pay 30% less than normal for that membership, so get in there while you can. Thank you and have a weekend.