All the president’s side hustles

Summary

Today, Explained: All the President’s Side Hustles

Hosted by Sean Rameswaram and Eli Stokels | Released May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "All the President’s Side Hustles," hosts Sean Rameswaram and Eli Stokels delve into the multifaceted activities of President Donald Trump and his family beyond the Oval Office. The discussion spans Trump's diplomatic missions in the Middle East, his family's extensive business dealings in the region, and the burgeoning involvement of the Trump brand in the cryptocurrency landscape. The episode critically examines the ethical implications and potential conflicts of interest arising from these endeavors.

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Trump’s Middle East Diplomacy and Family Business Ventures

Sean Rameswaram introduces Trump's activities in the Middle East:

[00:00] "Donald Trump's in the Middle East doing the kinds of things you might expect a US President to do. While in the Middle East, he's been shaking hands with leaders, posing for photos."

The hosts highlight Trump's diplomatic engagements, including meetings with regional leaders and significant announcements, such as the cessation of sanctions against Syria:

[00:21] Eli Stokels: "I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order to give them a chance at greatness."

Eli Stokels further elaborates on Trump's meeting with Syria's new president, Ahmed Al Sharra, a former al-Qaeda leader previously on the US Terror list:

[00:28] "And on Wednesday, Trump met with Syria's new president, Ahmed Al Sharra, a former al Qaeda leader who used to be on the US Terror list, I might."

Family Business in the Middle East

Sean Ramiswram questions the involvement of Trump's sons in Middle Eastern business deals prior to the President's arrival:

[02:18] "Sean Ramiswram: Okay, so help me set the stage for this trip to the Middle East this week, because I read that even before President Trump showed up, his large adult sons were crisscrossing the region. What exactly were they doing?"

Eli Stokels responds by detailing the Trump Corporation's ventures, including Trump International Hotel projects in Dubai and luxury villa projects in Qatar:

[02:46] "They are making a bunch of deals. You’re saying some of those deals are pretty close to, if not involving foreign governments. And then the President rolls in, makes a bunch more deals and also is dealing with those same actors in the process."

Ethical Concerns and Conflicts of Interest

The discussion shifts to the ethical ramifications of Trump maintaining active business interests while serving as President. Eli Stokels points out the lack of a blind trust and the intertwining of business and political dealings:

[03:38] "He did not put any of these things in a blind trust or put up a firewall between his business interests and his work in government in his first term or in his second."

The conversation highlights a controversial gift from Qatar—a $400 million Boeing 747 jet intended to serve as Trump's personal Air Force One:

[05:57] Eli Stokels: "Qatar has decided that one way to curry favor with this president is to float. Just giving the US government giving President Trump a 747 jet, like tricked out, double decker, $400 million Boeing jet..."

A political commentator adds criticism regarding the acceptance of gifts from foreign entities:

[07:09] "Taking sacks of goodies from people who support Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Jazeera, all the rest of the. That's not America First..."

Transactional Foreign Policy

Eli Stokels describes Trump's foreign policy as highly transactional, focusing on financial deals over ideological or democratic values:

[08:32] "He thinks about the world in a very mercantilist way. And so the Saudis, the Qataris, the Emiratis, they are willing to play that game to do these deals..."

The hosts discuss the substantial investments pledged by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, including commitments to defense, AI data centers, energy infrastructure, and US drones:

[08:35] "It also includes some investment in the United States, including 20 billion in AI data centers and energy infrastructure."

Involvement in LIV Golf and Private-Public Partnerships

The episode touches upon Trump's hosting of a Saudi-backed LIV Golf tournament in Florida, which serves as both a sporting event and a vehicle for furthering business ties with Saudi investors:

[10:14] "The LIV golf. We haven't even talked about LIV Golf, but that's the Saudi-backed golf league. That's a real competitor to the PGA Tour."

Trump’s Foray into Cryptocurrency

Shifting focus, the hosts explore how the Trump family has ventured into the cryptocurrency market, creating significant wealth through various crypto-related projects.

Sean Rameswram introduces the topic:

[15:22] "Explain is back with Will Got Sagan, who writes about crypto for the Atlantic. His latest piece is all about how."

Trump Coin and Crypto Ventures

Eli Stokels discusses the introduction of "Trump Coin," a meme cryptocurrency that saw an explosive surge in value shortly after its launch:

[17:09] "Well, initially, when Trump coin was introduced, sort of around the time of the inauguration, it accounted almost, I think Axios estimated that it was 89% of his total net worth within that first weekend."

The hosts critique the lack of regulatory oversight under Trump's administration, contrasting it with the stringent regulations previously enforced by Gary Gensler during the Biden presidency:

[24:10] "Well, I think to understand that question, you have to sort of go back and look how crypto has been regulated over the past, sort of. Throughout the Biden presidency..."

Ethical Implications of Crypto Involvement

The conversation emphasizes the potential for conflicts of interest and the circumvention of campaign finance laws through anonymous crypto transactions:

[23:14] "That has directly transmuted the Trump brand into money and it has muddied a lot of those pathways."

A political commentator warns of the risks associated with Trump leveraging crypto for personal enrichment:

[24:38] "There are still regulations that the rules really haven't changed that much. It's just how they're enforced. And they're being enforced a lot less harshly than they were during the Biden administration."

Conclusion

The episode "All the President’s Side Hustles" paints a comprehensive picture of how President Donald Trump and his family are deeply entrenched in international business dealings and the cryptocurrency market. The hosts raise significant ethical questions about the blending of business interests with presidential duties, highlighting potential conflicts of interest and the lack of regulatory safeguards that could lead to corruption and undue foreign influence.

Notable Quotes

• Eli Stokels [00:28]: "Trump met with Syria's new president, Ahmed Al Sharra, a former al Qaeda leader who used to be on the US Terror list."

• Eli Stokels [05:57]: "Qatar has decided that one way to curry favor with this president is to float... a $400 million Boeing jet."

• Unknown Political Commentator [07:09]: "Taking sacks of goodies from people who support Hamas... That's not America First."

• Eli Stokels [08:32]: "He thinks about the world in a very mercantilist way."

• Unknown Political Commentator [24:48]: "I mean, he had a background teaching a crypto class at MIT... and now it's like a total free for all."

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This episode serves as a critical examination of the intertwining between political power and personal business interests, particularly in regions and industries where oversight appears minimal. It underscores the importance of vigilance and transparency in holding public officials accountable for potential conflicts of interest.

Transcript

[Sean Ramiswram]

Donald Trump's in the Middle east doing the kinds of things you might expect a US President to do. While in the Middle east, he's been shaking hands with leaders, posing for photos. Here's some Fox News coverage.

[Eli Stokels]

Tall people in the Middle East. I've noticed MBS is quite tall. The prime minister is quite tall himself.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Donald's been doing diplomacy. He made a big announcement on Tuesday.

[Eli Stokels]

I will be ordering the cessation of sanctions against Syria in order to give them a chance at greatness.

[Sean Ramiswram]

And on Wednesday, Trump met with Syria's new president, Ahmed Al Sharra, a former al Qaeda leader who used to be on the US Terror list, I might.

[Eli Stokels]

Add Gum fractured guy, tough guy.

[Sean Ramiswram]

But while in the Middle east, and before he even got there, the president and his family have also been doing things you'd never expect a US President and his family to do. Making hotel deals, golf course deals, plane gift deals, crypto deals. All the president's side hustles on Today explained.

[Will Got Sagan]

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[Eli Stokels]

You'Re listening to TODAY Explained. I'm Eli Stokels. I'm a White House and foreign policy correspondent at Politico.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Okay, so help me set the stage for this trip to the Middle east this week, because I read that even before President Trump showed up, his large adult sons were crisscrossing the region. What exactly were they doing?

[Eli Stokels]

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, he hinted that this would be his first big trip, hours after taking the oath of office. Where are you placeable now?

Well, I don't know if Saudi Arabia wanted to buy another 450 or 500. We'll up it for all the inflation.

And his interest in the Middle east coincides with Trump Corporation, his sons doing a lot of business in this region. And so just in the last couple weeks, Eric Trump, he was in Doha and the Trump Corporation Corporation is building, you know, several real estate ventures out there. They're looking at a Trump International Hotel project in Dubai. That's what brought Eric out there. There is another Trump branded beachside golf and luxury villa project in Qatar that is a multi billion dollar project. And so, you know, these are things that are bringing the family a lot of money in licensing and managing fees, you know, slapping the Trump name on the side of a building. These are also projects that have drawn a lot of investment from various entities in the region that have very close ties to these governments.

[Sean Ramiswram]

And just to be clear here, when the Trump Corporation is making multi million dollar, upwards of billion dollar deals in the Middle east, is Donald Trump benefiting?

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Yes.

[Eli Stokels]

Not directly, not immediately. But this money is enriching his corporation. Right? He did not put any of these things in a blind trust or put up a firewall between his business interests and his work in government in his first term or in his second. And he has said, well, my sons are running the company. I don't really have anything to do with it. But yeah, there is. I mean, to even say there's a thin line might be overstating it because, you know, we know how Trump operates and he's talking to his sons, he's talking to these people. He loves doing deals. And whether those are side deals, whether they're related to real estate or cryptocurrency, whatever, or whether they're more in the sort of government space. I know we're going to talk about the possible Qatari747 gift to Trump.

I could say, no, no, no, don't give us, I want to pay you a billion or 400 million or whatever it is, or I could say, thank you very much.

Those are all sort of benefiting Trump. And ultimately the Trump family, the Trump Corporation, they are making this money and clearly benefiting from the fact that their father is President of the United States and someone that a lot of these, these countries that are willing to conduct foreign policy on almost exclusively financial transactional terms, they are more than willing to play ball. And that is benefiting the Trump family and the Trump Corporation.

[Sean Ramiswram]

I'm old enough to remember Donald Trump being very upset that Hunter Biden may have been, you know, peddling deals off of his daddy's name.

[Eli Stokels]

These emails show that Biden's repeated claim that he has never spoken to Hunter about his business dealings were a complete lie. Was a total lie.

[Sean Ramiswram]

He lied, but that's another story. Let's talk about the jet you mentioned. What exactly is going on? Because I'm no presidential historian, but I, I'm struggling to recall a moment where a gift this large was being offered to a happy to accept it American president.

[Eli Stokels]

Yeah, I mean, as conservatives have pointed out, you know, critics would be wise to remember the Statue of Liberty, pretty large in size, was a gift from.

[Sean Ramiswram]

France to the city of New York.

[Eli Stokels]

That sits in New York Harbor. Right. This is a bit different. Qatar has decided that one way to curry favor with this president is to float. Just giving the US government giving President Trump a 747 jet, like tricked out, double decker, $400 million Boeing jet, and that he would use it as Air Force One for the duration of this term. And Trump says this term only it would go, it would be mothballed after, and go to his presidential library, even though there's actually no plans for a Trump presidential library yet. And, and all these things are very, you know, murky. But yeah, that's pretty unusual. And it has raised a ton of eyebrows, not just among Democrats or sort of ethical watchdogs, but even among Republicans who say, wait, wait, wait, we're going to take an Air Force One donated from a foreign, a foreign country in the Middle east and we're just going to, going to use it. That sounds off to a lot of people.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Taking sacks of goodies from people who support Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Jazeera, all the rest of the. That's not America First. Like, please define America first in a way that says you should take sacks of cash from the Qatari royals.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Okay, so everything we've talked about so far is just sort of setting the stage for this trip to the Middle east and setting, I guess, the possibilities for various ethical concerns and conflicts. What is the president hoping to accomplish broadly on this trip that he's on investment deals?

[Eli Stokels]

I mean, that is not typically what has driven foreign policy by presidents prior. That's been sort of an additional thing, not the main thing. Trump gave a speech in Riyadh on Tuesday to the investor conference there that was basically saying this region is great because of all the stuff you build and all the money that's here. And we Just want to do deals and we're not going to come here and lecture you about values. And so for someone who's pretty value agnostic like Trump, this is a perfect to come and conduct this very transactional foreign policy. The biggest thing that came out of the Saudi visit was a commitment of $600 billion in investments by the Saudis. We saw $142 billion defense package that was committed to, to build up the.

[Will Got Sagan]

Capacity of the Saudi armed forces.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

It also includes some investment in the.

[Will Got Sagan]

United States, including 20 billion in AI data centers and energy infrastructure.

[Sean Ramiswram]

A total amount billion of Boeing 7378.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Aircraft that's formed from an airline leasing.

[Eli Stokels]

Company in Saudi Arabia.

[Sean Ramiswram]

The Emir of Qatar vowed to spend.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Billions of dollars on US Drones and Boeing jets.

[Eli Stokels]

When he takes criticism about what his tariffs have done to the global economy, when he takes criticism about his economic stewardship broadly, what they always come back to is look at all the money pouring into our country. That really is how he thinks about that. He thinks about the world in a very mercantilist way. And so the Saudis, the Qataris, the Emiratis, they are willing to play that game to do these deals, to give Trump, metaphorically speaking, the big cardboard check with a lot of zeros on it. And he likes that the link is not ideology and democratic values. It's just kind of a pragmatism, a transactionalism, a mercantilism. Let's bring stability, let's make everybody rich. You know, he's found some partners in the region in pursuing that kind of a foreign policy.

[Sean Ramiswram]

And ethical quandaries be damned. I mean, just to bring this back to where we started, his kids show up first, make a bunch of deals. You're saying some of those deals are pretty close to, if not involving foreign governments. And then the President rolls in, makes a bunch more deals and also is dealing with those same actors in the process.

[Eli Stokels]

Right. It's like any questions, question. Like you summed it up. That's, that's right. I mean the, these, these different things. I mean, look, the LIV golf. We haven't even talked about LIV Golf, but that's the Saudi backed golf league. That's a real competitor to the PGA Tour. And it's run by the head of Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. You know, and what did they. He hosted a tournament. He hosted a tournament for them at Doral in Florida.

And Frank, what they're doing for golf is so great. What they're doing for the players is so great. The salaries are going to go way up.

And what happened, all of these people came to Doral, filled up the hotel, ate in the restaurant, sat out there on the golf course, right? So he has benefited from that and is clearly an ally of the Saudis as they, you know, the government is sort of working in this private space, but it's still the government, right? There's, there's investors, Qatari investors who have invested in some of the Trump Corporation projects over there. So they are working together in the sort of official space and then they are working together in the private space as well. And that's just how he's going to run foreign policy. The ethical watchdogs can, can howl at the moon, but it's just, it's not going to stop him from, from operating this way.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Read eli [e-mail] Eli was mostly talking about things we can track, but when we're back at Today Explained, we're going to talk about Trump's harder to track deals. The president's billion dollar crypto portfolio. Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. Not B U I L T but B I L T. Let's talk about points, not point Guards, not the Pointer Sisters, not the classic 1991 Keanu Reeves surf noir movie Point Break shout outs to Johnny Utah. Although if you do want to talk about Point Break, nobody's stopping you. Not enough people are talking about Point Break. They've let me spend this much of this ad talking about Point Break and for that alone, Built Rewards, I salute to you. Bilt Rewards lets you earn points on your rent. They say you can also gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. Things like extra points on dining out, complimentary post workout shakes, and unique experiences that only Built members can access. You can start paying rent through Bilt and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to joinbuilt.com explained that's J O I N B I L T.com explained join bilt.com explained to sign up for Built Today. Support for this show today comes from ZBiotics. ZBiotics Pre alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. They say. They say it was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. They say when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. They say it's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking. They say their pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Just ask Claire White.

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[Eli Stokels]

Oh, what I do for the crown prince today.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Explain is back with Will Got Sagan, who writes about crypto for the Atlantic. His latest piece is all about how.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

The Trump family business has become crypto more than, like, you know, Trump Stakes or the Apprentice or any of the other millions of things that Trump has made his name on. Right. The Trump brand has been gold for him for his entire career, but he's found something finally to, like, really turn it into a digital gold mine.

[Sean Ramiswram]

It's interesting you say that because we opened this show today focusing on the Middle east, and we were talking about how the large Trump sons, although Barron's.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Large, too, he's the largest. I mean, he's the older Trump.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Adult sons have been crisscrossing the Middle east making deals. Golf courses, hotels, villas. But you're saying that's not even the crux of Trump Inc. Anymore.

[Eli Stokels]

It's.

[Sean Ramiswram]

It's crypto.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

It has become crypto. Yeah. Eric and Don Jr. Are sort of on the crypto press circuit right now.

[Eli Stokels]

Yeah.

You know, Maria, I never thought I'd fall into the world of crypto until every bank started canceling us for absolutely.

[Sean Ramiswram]

No reason whatsoever other than the fact.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

That my father was in politics.

[Sean Ramiswram]

This notion of decentralized finance is obviously sort of, you know, very appealing to guys like me who've been debanked or haven't been able to get insurance or whatnot.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Both have kind of managerial director positions on Some of these Trump affiliated crypto companies that have been making Trump money in recent years, they've taken a lead role both on the managerial side and the sort of press tour side, as we've seen in the Middle east.

[Sean Ramiswram]

And I mean, but most pertinent, I suppose, is to just talk about how much money is being made here. How much money is being made here, Will.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Well, initially, when Trump coin was introduced, sort of around the time of the inauguration, it accounted almost, I think Axios estimated that it was 89% of his total net worth within that first weekend. It's since crashed, as these meme coins tend to do. But there was such a massive boom right after that introduction that I think it was, you know, we're talking tens of billions of dollars that were basically instantly printed into life. So Trump's meme coin was really a surprise to almost everyone in the crypto community. Trump had appointed a crypto czar, David Sachs. He sort of had tried to assemble a team of crypto experts to really roll out or maybe roll back crypto regulations in a sort of measured and sober way. And then all of a sudden he releases Trump the meme coin kind of out of the blue, while actually, like there was a crypto gala going on in D.C. for sort of Trump affiliated crypto people to kind of celebrate the inauguration.

[Eli Stokels]

That's that crypto.

[Sean Ramiswram]

See, they let a real crip up in the crypto mall.

[Eli Stokels]

Bang, bang.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

It was during that gala, while everyone was kind of pleasantly drunk and chattering and not really watching their Twitter feeds, that Trump decided to drop this thing.

[Sean Ramiswram]

A meme coin is a cryptocurrency that.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Originates from an Internet meme or has.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Some other humorous characteristic. Think dogecoin. Unlike traditional cryptocurrencies, meme coins derive their price primarily from community hype and social media momentum.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

All of a sudden, it shoots up tens of billions of dollars in crypto. It was really just a chance to cash in on the hype surrounding the inauguration and also the possibilities of a second Trump term.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Are there specific instances in which he's used, used the pulpit of the presidency to promote his meme coin or his crypto interests?

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Oh, constantly. He's constantly posting on Truth Social, like, if not directly, buy my coin. I don't think he'd be so silly as to say my coin because that makes the link even more explicit than it already is, but he's constantly posting about, you know, promotional events tied to the coin. There's a Trump coin gala that I think has generated over $100 million in terms of, like, extra people or. People have spent over $100 million trying to get entry to the gala. The gala is an attempt to basically pump the price of Trump coin, get people interested in it. It's rare that he's not talking about his businesses. On Truth Social. Truth Social.

[Eli Stokels]

I will make sure that the US.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Is the crypto capital of the world. We are great again.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

So he had some NFTs back when NFTs were really kicking off, which were basically like digital collectibles tied to the Trump brand name.

[Eli Stokels]

I'm doing my first official Donald J. Trump NFT collection right here, and right now they're called Trump Digital Trading Cards.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

It was something in the Trump playbook, right? He's. He's been doing this for years, putting the Trump name on something and then saying, here's a piece of me, right? You can now own a piece of the Trump name. Put it in your home, in this case, like, put it, you know, in your digital wallet.

[Eli Stokels]

Each card comes with an automatic chance to win amazing prizes, like Dinner with me. I don't know if that's an amazing prize, but it's what we have.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

And then closer to his actual election, he unveiled World Liberty Financial, which is known as a DEFI firm. Basically, Defi is decentralized finance. It's a broad sort of umbrella term for crypto protocols that do a lot of different things. It was really the first sort of intimation that Trump was going to start personally enriching himself by way of crypto companies, not just like by way of a few throwaway NFTs, right? Or by courting donations from crypto billionaires, but really by getting into the business himself.

[Sean Ramiswram]

And how does that go for him? How does he ramp it up and who's doing it? Is it Trump ramping it up, or is it Eric and Don Jr. Well.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

That'S an interesting question, because so much of the value of these companies, and it's not just World Liberty Financial, it's sort of the Trump meme Coin. There's a whole. There's American Bitcoin, which is a bitcoin mining firm that's a more recent venture. All of these things are. They have some distance from Trump in the sense that maybe the directors are his sons. Maybe some of the assets that accrue from these companies are they accrue to a trust. Trump the man and Trump the business are ostensibly separated, but also one doesn't exist without the other, right? The value of Trump the business is nothing without the name Trump. Presidents have Always been good at turning the position of the presidency into money. I mean, look at Obama, right? Like Netflix deals, speaking fees. There's nothing new about wanting to get really rich off of being the president. It's a tale as old as time. That said, there's something really unprecedented and direct about what crypto allows you to do there. It's saying, here's a direct, not just a direct financial path to the, the president, but like a way, here's. Here's a way to cash in on the biggest position in the whole world.

[Sean Ramiswram]

When you think of Barack Obama and Netflix or his like, weird podcast with Bruce Springsteen and how much money he made for that, you're talking about stuff a president's doing post presidency. How is Trump reentering office complicated his crypto side hustle?

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Well, there's a huge amount of like, security risk that comes with it, right? I mean, specifically from Trump, the Meme coin. The fact that crypto is anonymous basically means that anyone can invest. In the case of Trump Meme Coin, there are like, firms with ties to China that have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in Trump Coin firms that we don't really know much about. But because crypto is kind of fast and loose digital money, anyone can buy in. And when you're buying into something that directly enriches the president because Trump Coin is so much of Trump's net worth, you're kind of getting his ear right. You are saying, you know, we have campaign finance laws in this country for a reason. And the fact that you can basically anyone in the world can personally enrich Trump by buying into Trump Coin is sort of a shortcut. It's a legal shortcut around those pesky campaign finance laws.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Who's watching the hen house, if anyone?

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Well, I think to understand that question, you have to sort of go back and look how crypto has been regulated over the past, sort of. Throughout the Biden presidency, Biden had appointed Gary Gensler as the head of the sec. And he was largely seen as a pretty, pretty kind of lefty, pretty aggressive regulator, especially when it came to crypto.

[Eli Stokels]

Right now, unfortunately, there's significant non compliance and it's a field which is rife with fraud, abuse and misconduct.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

I mean, he had a background teaching a crypto class at mit. He knew his stuff and he kind of wanted to make an example of the crypto industry. And so now Trump. Fast forward to 2024. Trump is elected. As soon as he's inaugurated, basically he rolls back a huge amount of the investigations that were kicked off by Biden's Sec, Gensler's Sec, Lina Khan's ftc. These are like, these are, you know, they had a real track record for being very harsh on crypto and now it's like a total free for all. I mean, there, there are still regulations that the rules really haven't changed that much. It's just how they're enforced. And they're being enforced a lot less harshly than they were during the Biden administration. As much as the industry and the good actors in the industry, of which there are many, have tried to say, look, crypto is a double edged sword. The fact of its being kind of fast and loose and anonymous, there are a lot of really good qualities that come with that. But it's also enabled some of the worst in people and maybe the worst of Trump's impulses to really come to the fore. It has directly transmuted the Trump brand into money and it has muddied a lot of those pathways. I mean, exactly what's worrying people on both sides of the aisle about the Cotter Plain situation? Like, we've taken that to like a whole different degree with the sort of anonymous money situation stemming from Trump's crypto businesses. So it would surprise me if as that continues to come out and continues to be muddier and muddier, that people on both sides of the aisle start to react to that.

[Sean Ramiswram]

Will but got Sagan's most recent piece for the Atlantic is titled the Real Trump Family Business Is Crypto. Read it at theatlantic.com Victoria Chamberlain produced today. Jolie Myers edited. Laura Bullard was on fax. Andrea Christensdotter and Patrick Boyd were on sound. I'm Sean Ramisvrum. This is Today Expl.

[Unknown Political Commentator]

Sam.