All the sad young literary men

Summary

Today, Explained: All the Sad Young Literary Men
Released on May 23, 2025 | Hosted by Sean Rameswaram and Noel King | Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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Introduction

In the episode titled "All the Sad Young Literary Men," hosts Noel King and Ross Barkin delve into the evolving landscape of literary fiction, particularly focusing on the apparent decline of young white male authors in highbrow literature. This discussion is sparked by British writer and critic Jude Cook's recent announcement of launching an independent press dedicated to publishing literary fiction and memoirs by young men. The episode examines whether young white straight men are indeed being marginalized in the literary world and explores broader gender dynamics within the publishing industry.

Jude Cook’s Initiative and the Literary Landscape

The episode opens with Noel King introducing Jude Cook's initiative to establish a small independent press aimed at amplifying voices of young male authors. Cook, who spoke to The Guardian, expressed concern that the literary fiction sphere has become predominantly female, leading to male stories being overlooked amid perceptions of a problematic male voice. [00:00]

Noel King states, "Today Explained loves nothing more than out of hand discourse. And so we're going to examine the claim that young white straight men are being shut out of high end fiction." [00:44]

Gender Trends in Publishing

Professor Joel Waldfogle from the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Management provides a historical perspective on gender dynamics in publishing. He outlines a significant shift over the past two centuries, highlighting that:

• Early 19th Century: Women comprised approximately 5% of published authors.
• 1900: This share marginally increased to around 10%.
• 1970 Onwards: A dramatic rise where female authorship surged, surpassing 50% just five years ago. [03:02 - 04:35]

Waldfogle attributes this transformation to increased female participation in higher education and broader societal changes that liberated women to engage in economic activities, including writing. He notes, "It's not just fiction, it's all kinds of nonfiction. So women are really becoming more involved in the production of all kinds of books." [07:59]

The Rise of Female Authorship

Joel Waldfogle emphasizes that the increase in female authorship spans all genres, breaking traditional stereotypes where specific genres were dominated by one gender. He also clarifies that this growth does not come at the expense of male authors. "There's been a big increase by men and a bigger increase by women." [08:38]

The discussion also touches upon the democratization of publishing through self-publishing platforms, which has lowered barriers for aspiring authors irrespective of gender. Waldfogle states, "Writing is literally solitary. I just have to coordinate with myself. I can do it maybe in spare time... it is available to people regardless of the constraints on their time." [07:11]

The Vanishing Young Male Literary Author

Ross Barkin introduces his essay, "From Misogyny to No Man's: The Vanishing Male in Contemporary Literature," highlighting the dwindling presence of young male authors in the literary scene. He reflects on the rich history of prominent young male writers like Norman Mailer, John Updike, Saul Bellow, and Philip Roth, and contrasts it with the current trend where prestigious contemporary novelists under 40 are predominantly women, citing examples like Sally Rooney and Emma Cline. [13:54 - 16:07]

Barkin discusses the potential reasons behind this shift, questioning whether it's due to changing publisher interests or evolving market forces. He asserts, "In the 2010s, the literary world was less interested in what straight men were publishing." [17:13]

The Impact of Declining Male Authorship

The hosts explore the implications of reduced male perspectives in literature. Barkin argues that literature suffers when significant segments of the population, such as young men who may be academically falling behind or feeling alienated, are not adequately represented. He notes, "It's a large part of the country. I think you have a lot going on with young men today... And fiction, in my view, is not grappling with all of that." [19:58]

Furthermore, Barkin critiques the current literary trends for often portraying men in limited or negative roles, such as "incels" or one-dimensional characters, rather than exploring the nuanced experiences of straight men. [20:25]

Balancing the Literary Scales

Noel King brings up the historical dominance of male authors and the current elevation of female voices, questioning whether this represents a leveling of the playing field. In response, Barkin acknowledges the positive aspects of increased diversity but points out the zero-sum nature of this shift, where gains for one group may inadvertently lead to losses for another. He remarks, "Women were losing, now men are losing. But there’s no solace offered to the 26-year-old male who must pay for the sins of the past, right?" [23:10]

Barkin concludes by emphasizing the emotional and professional challenges faced by young male writers who feel sidelined in the current literary environment. He advocates for a more inclusive approach that values diverse perspectives without diminishing the importance of male voices. [25:21]

Notable Quotes

• Noel King [00:44]: "Today Explained loves nothing more than out of hand discourse. And so we're going to examine the claim that young white straight men are being shut out of high end fiction."

• Joel Waldfogle [03:02]: "The female share just quickly rose from something like 15 to something like, well, by 2000, 20, 15 or so, over 50%."

• Ross Barkin [17:13]: "In the 2010s, the literary world was less interested in what straight men were publishing."

• Ross Barkin [20:25]: "It's a large part of the country. I think you have a lot going on with young men today... And fiction, in my view, is not grappling with all of that."

• Ross Barkin [23:10]: "Women were losing, now men are losing. But there’s no solace offered to the 26-year-old male who must pay for the sins of the past, right?"

Conclusion

"All the Sad Young Literary Men" offers a thought-provoking exploration of gender dynamics in the literary world. Through insights from Professor Joel Waldfogle and author Ross Barkin, the episode highlights the historical progress of female authorship and the current challenges faced by young male writers. The discussion underscores the importance of diverse perspectives in literature while addressing the emotional and professional hurdles that arise when certain voices become underrepresented. As the publishing industry continues to evolve, this episode invites listeners to consider how to balance inclusivity with maintaining a rich tapestry of varied narratives.

Transcript

[Noel King]

British writer and critic Jude Cook announced last month that he's starting a small independent press that will publish mainly literary fiction and memoirs by young men. Mr. Cook told the Guardian that literary fiction, this is highbrow stuff, has come to be dominated by women, quote, giving rise to a situation where stories by new male authors are often overlooked, with a perception that the male voice is problematic. After that, we, we reached out to Jude Cook, who told us he'd rather not talk because, quote, the discourse has got slightly out of hand. Today Explained loves nothing more than out of hand discourse. And so we're going to examine the claim that young white straight men are being shut out of high end fiction.

[Ross Barkin]

Most of the classic examples of prestige white male authors are now middle aged or senior citizens. Jonathan Franzen is 65 years old.

[Noel King]

That's coming up.

[Joel Waldfogle]

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[Noel King]

Megan Rapinoe here this week on A Touch More. We are live from New York for.

[Ross Barkin]

The Liberty's home opener with an extra special guest, Brianna Stewart. We talk about the Liberty's newest additions, the best lessons Stewie ever got from sue, and what it was like to be at the Met Gala this year.

[Noel King]

And of course, couldn't let her go.

[Ross Barkin]

Without asking her about that 2024 foul call. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Noel King]

This is today Explained.

[Joel Waldfogle]

My name is Joel Waldfogle and I'm a professor at the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Management. I also have a connection with the economics department here.

[Noel King]

Very cool. Are you a big fiction reader?

[Joel Waldfogle]

I'm not a big fiction reader.

[Noel King]

Oh no? Why not?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, I have been in my life. I have been in the course of my life. I did a big project after I finished college. I decided I really wanted to read through, you know, the important pieces of American literature. So I have been a big reader, but lately I consume other forms of creative output. Let's put it that way. That's an economist way to say it.

[Noel King]

You're watching a lot of Netflix, totally Fine.

[Joel Waldfogle]

You know, that's true. I'm enjoying the fruits of the digital renaissance. That's how I would put it.

[Noel King]

All right. The reason that we called you, Joel is because you wrote a very interesting paper about gender in publishing. Tell me how you became interested in that.

[Joel Waldfogle]

Yeah, sure. I spent some time at the copyright office as the Kamenstein fellow there. And one of the things they were interested in was what's happened to the share of copyrights that have been granted to women. And so I was looking at that and how it's really grown substantially over time. One of the big categories of copyrights, the one that people are most familiar with, is books. And it's remarkable just how the share of copyrights granted to females has risen from, you know, really low numbers, if you go back 50 years to more than 50%. It really passed 50% about five years ago. And that's an unusual. An unusual kind of statistic, because when you look at other creative or innovative areas, you just don't see that level, that level of balance, that level of female participation relative to male.

[Noel King]

Take me back in time and tell me where this story starts.

[Joel Waldfogle]

I can go back to the early 19th century. You know, I can look at the card catalog of the Library of Congress, the biggest library the world, and by looking at the names of authors, I can infer the gender of authors. And back in 1800, about 5% of the books published were written by women. And it rose very slowly over the 19th century. By 1900, it was still, you know, something like 10%. And it continued to rise very slowly into the mid 20th century. And only in about 1970 did it do almost literally a hockey stick. That is, the female share just quickly rose from something like 15 to something like, well, by 2000, 20, 15 or so, over 50%. So it's a really remarkable transition that's happened fairly recently.

[Noel King]

What did happen?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, I think a lot of it is female college going. So if you look at the share of women going to college, that's really when it bumps up. And so that means both that we have a bunch of women in a position to write as well as a bunch of women who are likely to be people wanting to buy books. So it's both the supply side and the demand side. But I really think it's the, you know, taking a lot of women and think about the social change of the 20th century that really liberated women in many ways to participate in various kinds of economic activity, one of which is writing books.

[Noel King]

Do you think there's also been a Change in attitude, because, yes, college education did free women up to do many things, but also along with that, attitudes had to change. Like, is a woman worth reading? Is a question that is not answered by does she have a college degree? Do you think there are other societal changes going on here?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, surely there are. I mean, it's interesting. If you go back early in the century, there were fairly prominent, very prominent examples of very successful women authors. So I don't know that it's not an alien thing to read Virginia Woolf or something. So there have been in the bestseller list a lot of women, even as back as early in the 20th century. But I think what's interesting to me is that this increase in female authorship, it occurs across all genres of production. So it's not just fiction, it's all kinds of nonfiction. So women are really becoming more involved in the production of all kinds of books.

[Noel King]

What about the industry that gives you the opportunity to publish a book? That would be the publishing industry. Is it also changing starting in 1970?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, it's hard to say, you know, because I look at enormous numbers of books, and so there's sort of like the publishing industry has, I think, historically been very an elitist industry, and there's sort of a high echelon of the fancy publishers, and then there are many, many other kind of echelons of books. And by recently, you know, there's an enormous amount of self publishing. And so it might be, it's entirely possible that there are barriers and challenges, maybe historically for women at the high end, but there have been since 1970, I think, a lot of ways to get published. And especially since 2010 or so, when people could begin to self publish.

[Noel King]

Right? You think about other creative outputs, as you would term them, Netflix shows. I'm joking with you, of course, but if you want to be in film, if you want to be in television, there's an enormous industry that you have to work your way through. I could self publish a novel tomorrow and perhaps I will. There are not gatekeepers the same way that there used to be.

[Joel Waldfogle]

That's really true. And it's both an absence of gatekeepers and also really the production process. To be a vulgar economist, it just involves me and a pencil or me and a laptop or somebody. Not me, I'm male, I guess, but anybody. Whereas with music or with movies or with television, it requires a fair bit more coordination and sometimes capital investment and therefore gatekeepers. Although having said that, you know, since digitization, all of these industries, it's become much easier to enter But. But still, writing is literally solitary. I just have to coordinate with myself. I can do it maybe in spare time, even if I have a kid or something, you know, if I have a lot of family obligations, I could still maybe find time to do it. So it is interesting the way writing, unlike some of the other activities, is available to people regardless of the constraints on their time.

[Noel King]

So as you're looking through this vast trove of data, did you get a sense of what kinds of books women are writing?

[Joel Waldfogle]

There are some kind of, you know, stereotypical patterns that are true. So, for example, a lot of the romance novels are both written by women and read by women. And there are other categories that are more historically male in their writing and probably in their reading. But that said, what I find really interesting is that there's growth in the female share writing in all of the categories.

[Noel King]

If the number of women publishing books is growing, does that necessarily mean the number of men publishing books is shrinking?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, it literally isn't.

[Noel King]

Huh.

[Joel Waldfogle]

One answer is, in some sense it has to crowd it up. But let me just tell you some facts. There just has been very big growth in the number of new works by men, just bigger growth in the number of new works by women. Now, if I'm going to be kind of an eggheaded economist about it, you know, we could say, well, if the women hadn't increased, would the men have grown even more? And may, maybe, maybe. But it's not as though there's been like an absolute decline in the number of books by men. There's been a big increase by men and a bigger increase by women.

[Noel King]

We were inspired to do this episode because we read about a new publisher, Conduit Books, and the man who created Conduit says that he wants to publish literary fiction and memoirs written by men, especially men under 35, because he believes they are not getting published enough. When you look at the data and when you look at the industry, is this a demographic that is being underserved?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Well, it's hard to say. I mean, in some sense, all sorts of books, regardless of genre and author type, have been increasing. And that's true in all the creative industries. There's just a greater variety of everything. That said, I think literary types tend to focus on the prestige publishers, and there could well be trends at the prestige publishers that are focusing more on women. I don't know. So I'm not denying the perspective of people who think that some of these voices aren't being, let's say, promoted or launched into the industry at the same echelons they used to be. What I think is true though, is that there are enormous opportunities for everybody to get some work out there. Every sort of book has experienced increase in the number of works being created. We've worried, I think we as a society for a long time that we're not getting innovation out of everybody. Not everyone is allowed to participate in the innovative process. And maybe we're missing out. So there's this expression lost Einsteins or lost Marie Curies. And again, go back to 1800. Only 10% of books or 5% are written by women. Women aren't really participating. Maybe there are a bunch of women with great ability that we're just not tapping into. And one way to think about this study of mine is, well, let's look at this long swing of time where we go from not using women to using women as much as we use men to create this stuff. And it turns out that that's enormously valuable. It's not just, for example, women who are benefiting as consumers, although that would be great. It's also men. So this is like a win win kind of innovation or creation. And so that I think it augurs well for how important it might be to get everybody involved.

[Noel King]

Joel Waldfogle of the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Business sees a win win. But coming up, it wouldn't be high end literature without the sad young literary men. What do they think?

[Ross Barkin]

Certainly the elephant in the room is that there were once a lot of young white male authors and now there aren't.

[Megan Rapinoe]

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[Joel Waldfogle]

Week on Unexplainable I want to tell you about this guy I came across who has tied little leashes to butterflies and moths, like little leashes out of fishing line and taken them for walks around his lab. And by walks I mean little tiny flights. So like imagine a dude with like a real life kite on the other end is a butterfly and he's like walking it around a room.

[Noel King]

Um, okay. Why is he doing this?

[Joel Waldfogle]

Benji, find out on unexplainable new episodes.

[Noel King]

Every Monday and Wednesday.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Have you ever scrolled through Instagram in the summer and wondered how everyone you know is suddenly in Europe? You've probably thought to yourself, how can they actually afford that trip? Well, summer's almost here, and on this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, I'm diving into practical ways to save on summer travel. Flight prices change constantly, literally day to day. And often those changes in price can fluctuate based on your location, the strength of your country's currency, and how popular a destination is in your region. So how do we see what that flight price would be in another place? We are using a vpn. Plus, I'm answering some of your burning travel questions. From finding better flight deals to making the most of your travel credit cards, we're breaking down the travel industry's best kept secrets. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF this is today Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King with Ross Barkin. Writer, journalist, columnist, essayist, novelist. Ross wrote an essay called From Misogyny to no Man's the Vanishing Male in Contemporary Literature.

[Ross Barkin]

So for many decades, there were prominent young male authors in the literary world, whether it was Norman Mailer, Updike, Bellow, Roth, the 2010 National Humanities Medal to Philip Roth. Mr. Roth is the author of 24.

[Noel King]

Novels, including Portnoy's Complaint and American Pastoral.

[Joel Waldfogle]

The Nobel committee cited Bellow for his.

[Ross Barkin]

Human understanding and his subtle analysis of contemporary culture through the end of the 20th century. You know, with the emergence of Jonathan Franzen and Jonathan Leatham and Jonathan Safran Foer.

[Megan Rapinoe]

While still in his 20s, Jonathan Safran.

[Noel King]

Foer wrote two critically acclaimed novels, both.

[Joel Waldfogle]

Of which were turned into films.

[Noel King]

Jonathan Franzen is here. Congratulations.

[Joel Waldfogle]

First thank you.

[Noel King]

National Book Award.

[Joel Waldfogle]

It's the first time I've been happy in two months.

[Ross Barkin]

These last two days into the beginning of the 2010s. Chad Harbach with the Art of Fielding. And then there was a shift. The young male author started to disappear. The male author under the age of 40 in particular, and under 30 even more so. And while my essay does not grapple with race to any great degree at all, certainly the elephant in the room is that there were once a lot of young white male authors and now there aren't. There's less of them. If you look at the prestigious successful contemporary novelists under the age of 40, they're mostly women. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just pointing out a fact. Whether it's Sally Rooney. Emma Cline in the first of a.

[Noel King]

Three book deal with Random House, author Emma Cline writes. The girls bookshops opened their doors early.

[Megan Rapinoe]

For eager fans of Sally Rooney Today, as the buzz around the publication of.

[Noel King]

Her fourth novel grows and grows.

[Ross Barkin]

Those are the writers who are at the top of this particular literary space. And that was not true from most of the 20th century into the beginning of the 21st century.

[Noel King]

How old are you?

[Ross Barkin]

35.

[Noel King]

You're 35, okay. You're a white man, correct? Yeah. Okay. I wonder about the kind of driving force for this essay and whether you are the vanishing male writer of which you wrote.

[Ross Barkin]

I think so, yeah. I think there's less of me, for sure. I mean, there would be an era where there were a lot of novelists like myself, Jewish, I mean, Jewish or not Jewish, but certainly white white men.

[Noel King]

I am inclined to find your argument very compelling. I was a teenager in the 90s, a young adult in the 2000s. That's when you read a lot of fiction. Right. And I do remember David Foster Wallace, Jonathan Safran Fjord, Jonathan Franzen, Jonathan Letham. And so what you're saying actually really does track to me. The question I wonder about is the why. And let me ask you first to answer the why from your personal perspective. You're a novelist, you're 35 years old, you're a straight white guy. Do you feel like those identities are holding you back in some way?

[Ross Barkin]

Not in the real. Not in the real world. In the real world, I have enormous privilege. But no, in the literary. In all seriousness, to an extent, I mean, it's. In the 2010s, the literary world was less interested in what straight men were publishing. I think you have a general lack of the heterosexual male perspective. In newer fiction. There's a long history of writers portraying toxic masculinity and rough male characters, and it feels that you see less of that today. I also think at the same time, young male writers, white and non white, were taking less of an interest in fiction. It's a chicken and egg challenge. Where is it the publishing industry deciding this is no longer something we're going to push or take a real interest in? Or is it, you know, market forces as well?

[Noel King]

So some of it is internal. Maybe there are fewer men who want to be great novelists, but maybe publishers are saying, hey, we're just less interested in the perspectives of straight white men. When you approach publishers with your novel Glass Century. Did you hear that?

[Ross Barkin]

I think you hear it behind the scenes. It's never told to your face. And I'm not. I'm not complaining. I don't consider myself a victim. I've had a successful career. I'm very happy with it. I really have no complaints. But my book was rejected a lot by a lot of publishers. But so are many books too, right? You never know why a book gets rejected.

[Noel King]

What do you hear behind the scenes? I mean, I. I appreciate your equanimity.

[Ross Barkin]

But to echo Joyce Carol Oates in a sort of notorious but not wrong tweet from several years ago, and I'm paraphrasing, is that agents and editors are at least in the 2000 and tens and early 2000 and twenties. We're just less interested in straight male fiction. I want to broaden it a little bit because you see, even among black and Hispanic Asian straight men, there are some. But it's less common. And certainly the white male is now even less common. I think publishers in general in that era, we're trying to diversify, which was fine. You had social justice, politics, you had what they call woke. And in a way, woke worked because it broadened things out and brought in new voices. But it is also zero sum, right? Some come up, some go out. And so for me, it's observing that trend.

[Noel King]

What do you think we lose when we lose the perspective of those young white men?

[Ross Barkin]

It's a large part of the country. I think you have a lot going on with young men today, white and non white alike. Straight men, they are falling behind academically. They're increasingly alienated, they're increasingly angry, they are increasingly online. And fiction, in my view, is not grappling with all of that.

[Noel King]

But I did actually see that in one book in the last year. Rejection by Tony Tulum, the Moody. There were characters who were highly online. The most acclaimed story was about an incel. That book was incredibly powerful and it got praise, right? It did get the cycle. What do you think about that?

[Ross Barkin]

He's a fantastic writer. I'll start there. He's a great pro stylist. There's a short story I love about a young Asian man who is having these very lurid sexual fantasies about dominating other men. Fantastically written. He's sort of the Roth of our era in terms of his ability to make a sentence really sizzle. But, but, but, but. This is the caveat which people seem to be afraid to point out, but I will point it out. It's not a straight male fantasy. Could Tony have written a straight male fantasy of wanting to subdue a woman the way that character wants to subdue men? Tony himself is straight. It was an interesting choice there to inhabit a gay character. Nothing wrong with that. Writer should write about whatever sexuality. I don't believe in limiting anyone in that way, but I thought it was a choice. Right, because straight male lust is very disconcerting. It's not easy to write about. What do men think about? The novel isn't really the modern novel. The current novel, in my view, and this is an argument someone can push back, is not addressing that enough. The nasty, nasty men who are not the men who are. Maybe they're good at heart, but they have a lot of bad thoughts and they take bad actions. You don't see that much in fiction today, I would argue. But you know, it's not just portraying incels, but even the sorts of men who came in mid century novels who were suburban husbands trying to do their best and maybe having affairs as well. And I think anytime literature only focuses on one thing. If it neglects the working class, if it neglects the black experience and neglects the Asian experience. We've seen a lot of great work being done to account for perspectives that were left out of literature for a long time. But I also think it's important to know for better and for worse, what the men of the 2020s are up to.

[Noel King]

Earlier in the show we heard from an economist, professor Joel Waldfogle, that if you look at the stats going back to, you know, the year 1800, women back then are made up about 5% of published authors. It's 10% through about the 1900s. And then in 2015, women surpass men. More women are publishing books than men, although both genders are still publishing a lot of books, it should be said. Are you at all sympathetic to the argument that you guys had your turn for centuries, the attention, the prizes, the accolades, and now doors have been open to women and they're putting out really good stuff. So we're just leveling the playing field out.

[Ross Barkin]

Yeah, no, I'm sympathetic for sure. I think that's an honest argument. The problem is you'll hear from people who say this isn't happening. And I find that very tiring. I think the honest thing to say is that it's time to rebalance the scales or turn the tables. But look, there are winners and losers, right? Women were losing, now men are losing. But I will say there's no solace offered to the 26 year old male who must pay for the sins of the past, right? The reality is, you know, you live one life, you've got one shot for success, for glory, for all those things or any appreciation, right? If you are blocked from that in some way due to some rebalancing of the scales and you are the loser at the end of that equation, you're not going to be happy. The young male writer can't sit at home and think, well, golly, it was good. Norman Mailer and John Updike had such a great run. I'm happy for them. I never met these men. They died before I was born. There's only so much you can do with that, right? Only so much comfort you can take in the prizes Saul Bellow won and Philip Roth won. It's a difficult thing, right? What do you say to the person that they're sitting on the sidelines because something that their grandparents did?

[Noel King]

Ross Barkin. His novel is the Glass Century. You can find links to some of the novels we discussed today in our show Notes. You really should read Rejection. Miles Bryan produced today's episode. Aman El Saadi edited. Patrick Boyd and Brandon McFarland engineered I'm Noel King. It's today explained.