America the extreme

Summary

Today, Explained: "America the Extreme" Episode Summary

Released on June 16, 2025, "America the Extreme" is an episode of Vox's daily news explainer podcast, "Today, Explained." Hosted by Noel King and featuring expert insights from John Lewis and Meredith Lair, the episode delves into the surge of political violence in the United States, its underlying causes, and its broader societal implications.

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1. Introduction: A Tense Weekend in America [00:00 - 01:27]

The episode opens with host Noel King setting the scene of a nation on edge. Over the weekend, President Trump celebrated his birthday with a military parade, an event that coincided with widespread protests across hundreds of cities. Despite fears of widespread conflict, most events remained peaceful except for a tragic incident in Minnesota where violence erupted unexpectedly.

Noel King [00:00]: "The US entered into the weekend bracing for conflict... Had people on edge."

Shortly after, a commercial break for Modelo beer interrupts the broadcast, which the hosts skip in adherence to content guidelines.

2. The Minnesota Shooting: A Case of Political Violence [01:30 - 06:02]

Returning from the ad break, Noel King introduces John Lewis, a research fellow at the Program on Extremism at George Washington University, who specializes in ideologically motivated violence in America. They discuss the recent Minnesota attack where a gunman impersonating a police officer killed two state lawmakers. Governor Tim Walz labeled it a "targeted assassination."

John Lewis [02:14]: "This certainly fits the description of the events... a targeted act motivated by ideology."

King highlights a series of violent incidents, including the killings of Israeli embassy workers in Washington, D.C., an attack on a hostage demonstration in Boulder, Colorado, and arson targeting Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's home. Lewis confirms that data supports an uptick in political violence, noting an increase in FBI arrests and investigations related to threats against public officials.

John Lewis [03:08]: "The numbers absolutely support that... a normalization of this violence."

3. Measuring the Surge in Political Violence [06:02 - 08:04]

Kan King probes how analysts quantify the rise in violence beyond media headlines. Lewis references research from NSIGHT at the University of Omaha, emphasizing the significant increase in federal cases involving threats, stalking, harassment, doxing, and swatting related to public officials.

John Lewis [04:15]: "There's been a drastic spike in cases... normalizing of this violence is leading to lone actors."

He points out that while political violence can stem from both the far right and left, the majority of deadly incidents currently align with far-right extremism.

John Lewis [05:24]: "By and large, the offline violence here is coming from the far right."

4. The Influence of Political Rhetoric on Violence [08:04 - 10:03]

King raises concerns about the role of political rhetoric in fostering an environment conducive to violence. Lewis agrees, attributing the aggressive "us versus them" language from political leaders, particularly President Trump, as a catalyst for anger and confusion among Americans.

John Lewis [06:02]: "This messaging... aligns with the most incendiary, most aggressive rhetoric... sends a powerful message."

He warns that when presidents and officials use dehumanizing language against specific groups, it emboldens extremists and normalizes violent responses.

John Lewis [08:50]: "When language used by President Trump... mirrors the exact language used by white supremacist mass shooters... it bodes poorly."

5. Social Media's Role in Amplifying Extremism [10:03 - 12:14]

The discussion shifts to the role of social media in exacerbating extremist narratives. Lewis explains that the interconnectedness facilitated by social media platforms allows hateful ideologies to spread rapidly within echo chambers, intensifying biases and grievances.

John Lewis [10:03]: "Social media... facilitates a lot of our worst qualities... allowing these conspiracies... to fester."

He contrasts the current landscape with historical instances of political violence, noting that while spikes are not unprecedented, the digital age has uniquely amplified these threats.

6. The Military Parade: Symbolism and Controversy [15:22 - 20:17]

Noel King recounts attending the military parade celebrating President Trump's birthday, highlighting the sparse attendance and subdued atmosphere. The event becomes a focal point for discussions on civil-military relations and the politicization of the armed forces.

Meredith Lair, a historian from George Mason University, offers insights into how President Trump perceives and utilizes the military. She notes that Trump's statement referring to the military as "his military" breaks with historical norms, which traditionally maintain the apolitical stance of the armed forces.

Meredith Lair [16:45]: "He sees the military as lethal... the military is my military."

Lair emphasizes the unique nature of this event, linking it to broader changes in how the military interacts with American society and politics.

7. Civil-Military Divide and Public Perception [20:17 - 25:01]

The conversation explores the evolving relationship between civilians and the military. Lair points out that unlike past eras when military service was widespread and normalized, today's small percentage of Americans with military ties has contributed to mistrust and misunderstanding.

Meredith Lair [21:00]: "Less than 1% of Americans will serve in the military... It has sowed mistrust."

She advocates for greater compassion and understanding between military members and civilians, highlighting the benefits some veterans receive compared to the struggles faced by non-service members, such as lack of access to healthcare.

8. America's Self-Narrative and Future Implications [25:01 - 26:08]

Lair reflects on how events like the military parade contribute to America's self-image, portraying an ongoing "march towards progress." However, she cautions that American history is a mix of advancement and regression, and the current narrative often overlooks the flawed aspects of the military's past.

Meredith Lair [23:23]: "The parade gives a feeling of this inexorable march towards progress... but American history is that things will advance forward and things will advance back."

The episode concludes with King reporting on interactions at the parade, including perspectives from military families and protesters, encapsulating the deep divisions and complexities within American society.

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Conclusion

"America the Extreme" provides a comprehensive examination of the rising tide of political violence in the United States, dissecting its roots in rhetoric, social media dynamics, and shifting civil-military relations. Through expert analysis and real-world observations, the episode underscores the urgent need for addressing the underlying tensions threatening the nation's fabric.

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Notable Quotes:

• "This messaging... aligns with the most incendiary, most aggressive rhetoric... sends a powerful message." — John Lewis [06:02]

• "When language used by President Trump... mirrors the exact language used by white supremacist mass shooters... it bodes poorly." — John Lewis [08:50]

• "He sees the military as lethal... the military is my military." — Meredith Lair [16:45]

• "Less than 1% of Americans will serve in the military... It has sowed mistrust." — Meredith Lair [21:00]

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Produced by Victoria Chamberlain, edited by Miranda Kennedy with assistance from Jolie Myers, and fact-checked by Laura Bullard. Engineered by Patrick Boyd and Matthew Billy.

Transcript

[Noel King]

The US Entered into the weekend bracing for conflict. President Trump was celebrating his birthday with a military parade that had people on edge. No kings protests were scheduled in hundreds of cities. Had people on edge. LA unresolved with Marines still on the ground. Had people on edge. The shocker was so much of what was feared didn't come to pass except in Minnesota. A moment in this country where we watched violence erupt.

[John Lewis]

This cannot be the norm.

[Noel King]

It cannot be the way that we deal with our political differences. A gunman dressed as a police officer shot four people, killing two of them, in what the governor called a targeted assassination of Minnesota state lawmakers. Vance Bolter was caught last night. These were 72 hours that had Americans asking what the hell is going on? And we're going to do our best to answer that on TODAY Explained. If you are a fighter, Modelo is your reward. So listen close. You put up with a lot, but you always hold it down for your people. You are strong. You are fearless. You are the baddest on the block. You are an elbow grease factory, a force of nature. You are not to be reckoned with. You are a ride or die, a powerhouse of productivity. You are a fighter and Modelo is your reward. You've earned every last drop of this rich golden lager. So raise it up high. Medelo the mark of a fighter Drink.

[John Lewis]

Responsibly being reported by Crown Import, Chicago, IL.

[Meredith Lair]

Bring the savor with Modelo Chiladas, a.

[Noel King]

Mouthwatering mix of authentic Mexican beer, bold fruit flavors and spices. Bring the heat with Santia Picante or.

[Meredith Lair]

The citrus burst of Limonizal. Modelo Chelada.

[Noel King]

Bring the Sabor drink responsibly. Modelo Chalada flavored beers imported by Crown Imports, Chicago, Illinois. It's Today Explained. I'm Noel King. John Lewis is a research fellow at the Program on Extremism at George Washington University. John focuses on Americans who commit violence in the name of ideology. John, what happened in Minnesota is still developing, but Governor Tim Walz called it an assassination. Would you say we know enough at this point to call what happened there political violence?

[John Lewis]

It certainly fits the description of the events. Yes. Again, based on the reporting, based on the official comments so far from law enforcement, from Governor Walz, this certainly appears to have been a targeted act, an individual who was motivated by, again, some ideology, some grievance, whether it's personal or political, who chose these individuals in particular to target, which I think certainly speaks to the potential deeper motivations here.

[Noel King]

There's been what feels like a lot of this lately we have the killings of the two Israeli embassy workers in Washington, D.C. we have the attack on the hostage demonstration in Boulder, Colorado. We have Governor Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, his home being set on fire. So it feels like political violence is on the rise. What do the numbers say though?

[John Lewis]

The numbers absolutely support that. When we look at the data, we've seen a marked increase in recent years, not only in actual successful plots and attacks, but in the number of arrests and investigations the FBI are involved in when it comes to threats to public officials. I think when we look at the broader societal effects of social media, of COVID of the normalization of this violent rhetoric into our political mainstream, I think that's really a caustic perfect storm there to really again, just inspire your average Americans who are lost, are confused, are dissatisfied, who are looking for answers. And I think in a lot of cases, this rhetoric, this very aggressive, very us versus them kind of rhetoric can really be the trigger for a lot of people who are angry, who are lost, who are confused.

[Noel King]

How do we know, other than headlines, how do we know that violence is increasing? You're an analyst. How do we measure this?

[John Lewis]

Yeah, so there's some excellent research that's being done in this space. You can look at work that's being done by this organization called NSIGHT over at the University of Omaha. It's a DHS funded center of excellence. They've been studying the drastic spike in cases, in federal cases brought charging people who have been threatening public officials, whether it's calling their office, whether it's stalking, harassing, doxing, swatting, things like that. And then look, you look at the anecdotal cases that we're talking about here, it's very clear that in recent years we have seen the normalization of this violence and that is leading these lone actors. And again, barely even ideological in a lot of these cases. We look at the Trump assassination attempt. You look at some of these other cases where the individual clearly barely has a coherent grasp on the ideology and is really just looking for justification. I think that when you really peel that back, you know, you see how prevalent these cases are becoming.

[Noel King]

Who is doing the violence? Is there a pattern to who's committing these acts?

[John Lewis]

I would say by and large, the offline violence here is coming from the far right. It's obviously, it's always important to say that conspiracy theories don't fit neatly into the political spectrum, but when we look at the individuals who are committing this violence, it certainly fits a far right mobilization. There are of course, left leftist attacks. There are lone actor violence on both sides here, but predominantly the dead bodies here, when they stack up, is not really a close comparison.

[Noel King]

What should we make of that?

[John Lewis]

I think, look, this is the year's long consequence of this campaign to really convince Americans that anyone who is not part of your tribe, your specific ingroup, is somehow un American, is somehow less than you, and is somehow a worthy target for political violence. And I think that should be extraordinarily concerning for average Americans everywhere.

[Noel King]

I think that many Americans feel, whether they like President Trump or not, that something in the rhetoric began to change when he was elected the first time. Is that just a feeling or is that grounded in reality?

[John Lewis]

No, it's absolutely grounded in reality. I think when you look at the messaging that comes out from President Trump's office, it certainly aligns with the most incendiary, most aggressive rhetoric that we see coming out of the right wing media ecosystem. And look, this trickles down, right? When you have the President of the United States using language about radical left democratic politicians calling migrants people who are poisoning the blood of this country, that sends a powerful message. And it's something that average Americans will pick up and engage with.

[Noel King]

Does the atmosphere in which we're living now, does it contribute to the reality of political violence? Like, everybody is on edge? I was at the Army's birthday parade this weekend and nothing happened. I mean, it was actually really rather dull. But the sense was that something could pop off at any time. In part because law enforcement had been, you know, urging people to be cautious, in part because the President had said, if you protest, you're gonna be met with violence. Do those kinds of warnings translate into reality?

[John Lewis]

These vibes don't, don't happen in a vacuum, right? We feel less safe because of the spike in domestic terrorism. We feel less safe because of massive counter protests, violence at protests, a general fear that, you know, this, this inherently random type of violence can, can happen to, to us. Again, it's a very, it's a very normal, very, very human reaction.

[Noel King]

President Trump is fairly unrestrained in the way he talks about protesters and immigrants, universities, even the military. How should we think about the message coming from the top and what it may lead to?

[John Lewis]

Well, yeah, look, I mean, I think very simply here, when language used by President Trump, by Stephen Miller, by DHS employees, when that mirrors the exact language used by white supremacist mass shooters in their manifestos, that bodes poorly, right? And again, when that mainstream message is being amplified by every neo Nazi out there, again, because it mirrors the language used by their peers that just floods the zone with the, the worst, most abhorrent, most dehumanizing content you can see. And again, you know, you really can't overst the role of these social media echo chambers. I mean, when it's just day after day after day of these conspiracies from the top getting amplified from the bottom, conspiracies from the bottom amplified by the top, you just get this bi directional flow of, I mean it's, it's, it's brain rot really. Is, is what it comes down to.

[Noel King]

Is this unprecedented or has the US been here before?

[John Lewis]

So look, we've certainly seen spikes in political violence. It's nothing new. We look at the weather underground, we look at other spikes in domestic extremist activity. I think what makes today unique in some cases is the role of social media. We are more interconnected than ever as humans. That's great for research, that's great. But that also facilitates a lot of our worst qualities as people. And I think it allows in many instances these conspiracies, these again, very racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, anti Semitic, hateful narratives, grievances to spread, to fester and to just become just stuck in these social media echo chambers.

[Noel King]

What do we do about this, John?

[John Lewis]

This has to start with our elected officials, right? It's very easy to talk about this and to kind of provide the top level analysis that terrorism is bad, political violence is bad. But we know that and we've been having these conversations for again, I mean we're what, nine years now? I mean it's going to be the same answers which is that it has to come from politicians, it has to come from our elected officials on both sides, right, left, top, bottom, to again, quite simply tamp down on political violence. But instead what we see day after day after day is this really caustic fanning of the flames, predominantly from the right around every single culture war issue. And so I think until we're able to really reckon with that, to call it what it is and to start beginning to address it, we're going to keep having these conversations, unfortunately.

[Noel King]

John Lewis of the program on extremism at George Washington University coming up, we went to the parade, so you didn't have to.

[Ryan]

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[Noel King]

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[Ryan]

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[Noel King]

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[Meredith Lair]

Cuchando hoy replicado. You are listening to Today.

[Noel King]

Explain. We're back. I'm Noel King. You might have seen the video circulating from this weekend of a very bored looking President Trump grimacing through the military parade celebrating the 250th birthday of of the U.S. army. It was also Trump's birthday. I was at the parade And Trump was not wrong. Attendance was sparse. At best, it was 1,000 degrees, and it was pretty boring. Chris's wife made him come. Well, my wife's from China, and so.

[Meredith Lair]

They have parades like that there, but she's never seen one here before. So she wanted to see a military parade here.

[Noel King]

Franco from Argentina was like, eh, I'm in D.C. why not?

[Meredith Lair]

I don't get the chance to see a military parade every day.

[Noel King]

Tim was protesting.

[Meredith Lair]

I am 60 years old. I've never protested anything in my life. And when I saw the military being turned against our own citizens, I had already planned to come down here because I thought a military parade, especially on a city president's birthday, was not American.

[Noel King]

But no one seemed to really care about his protest. Thank you for your servant. At least Professor Meredith Lehrer was excited to be there. Meredith is at George Mason University, where she studies American culture and the military. What do you think this event tells us about how President Trump sees the military?

[Meredith Lair]

I think he sees the military as lethal. I think he sees it as an extension of himself. He has said that this is his military. And I think that the Army's choice to emphasize technology is probably something that the White House and the army came to collectively, that they really wanted to showcase hardware and showcase power.

[Noel King]

You said President Trump has said, the military is my military. The American president is the commander in chief.

[Meredith Lair]

What.

[Noel King]

What about the way President Trump talks about the military is different from a historian's perspective?

[Meredith Lair]

I don't think that any other president has ever said anything like that. I think that other presidents have been more mindful of custom. There's a lot of conversation around President Trump that he breaks norms, that he has violated norms. And I think that his presidencies have forced Americans to come to terms with the fact that a lot of how the White House and the presidency operates are not actually enshrined in the Constitution. They're enshrined in custom. And so he is in that, in stating that this is his military military, and in giving a very politicized speech at which MAGA merchandise was for sale at Fort Bragg in Los Angeles.

[Noel King]

The governor of California, the mayor of.

[John Lewis]

Los Angeles.

[Meredith Lair]

They'Re incompetent and they paid.

[Noel King]

Troublemakers, agitators, and insurrectionists.

[Meredith Lair]

They're engaged in this willful attempt to.

[Noel King]

Nullify federal law and aid the occupation of the city by criminal invaders.

[Meredith Lair]

He's, you know, violating norms there about keeping the US Armed forces apolitical. And I think it's fair to remember that the U.S. armed forces are Not a monolith, that there are a lot of progressives who have joined the military because they want to serve or because it was a path out of poverty. I think it's worth remembering that a lot of the rank and file in the US Armed forces are not native born, they are immigrants or they are the children of immigrants. And I am sure that the American soldiery has complicated perspectives on this event and on President Trump's comments about the military.

[Noel King]

As somebody who studies this stuff, what message does it impart that today is also President Trump's birthday?

[Meredith Lair]

I don't think that this event can be separated from President Trump because no president since President George Herbert Walker Bush has elected to have a parade of this kind. And, you know, we can't. So we can't divorce it from President Trump because it's something that he expressly stated he wanted during his first term. And, you know, by the same token, I don't think we can divorce it from the larger conversation about the use of the US Military on American soil. So this, for good or bad, this event will, I think, always be associated with these new developments in civil military relations where the military is operating potentially against US Citizens. It's absolutely operating on US Soil in Los Angeles right now. And so the army is kind of trying to thread a needle here of focusing on its history, focusing on the equipment and its lethality and trying to remain nonpartisan.

[Noel King]

We've talked to a bunch of people out here at the parade today. We had one woman who's, whose son is in the Army. She actually came out to see him today. All of this that's going on and we're trying to find him and I.

[John Lewis]

Can'T find him and I just want to see my baby.

[Noel King]

She said, I don't think Americans understand enough about service. I don't think we treat the military well. And then we talked to another man who is protesting today who said, I.

[Meredith Lair]

Personally think that we celebrate the military too much in this country.

[Noel King]

There is a divide in this country between people who, I think it's sometimes even called the civilian military divide, between people who serve or know people who serve or have people in the family who served and people who just haven't and maybe think, why is this such a big deal? Has this always been the case?

[Meredith Lair]

No. We're in an interesting moment where the US Armed forces is the most lethal. But it's also very small relative to what it was, say, in World War II. And the role that veterans play in American society is really different now than it was at mid century, it's very unusual to know people in the military because less than 1% of Americans will serve in the military. And whereas if you compare that to the Post World War II era, it was very unusual for men not to have served in the military. So everybody's dad and uncle and brother was off fighting overseas or was in the service somewhere here in this country. So Vietnam is sort of in the middle, where of the 27 million Americans who could have served in the Vietnam era, only two and a half million of them actually did go to Vietnam. So, you know, so it's a rare thing now to have been a veteran. And it is not the normal thing or the normative thing for Americans to know people in the military. And I think that is profoundly problematic because I think it has sowed mistrust where people who maybe object to aspects of US Foreign policy tend to paint people, individuals in the military with that same brush or make assumptions about their political opinions. And by the same token, I think people in the military who enjoy such a robust set of social welfare benefits don't really understand the fear and the terror that civilians have at not having health insurance and confronting a major health crisis. So I think that both groups have a lot to learn from each other and I think there is probably room for more compassion. And I think to the stories that you shared, I think in the end they're kind of both right. My dad's expression, he's 87 years old and two time Vietnam veteran and is, you know, served 22 years in the Army. And when people thank him for his service, he talks about what a great life he has as a result of that. And he says, I should be thanking.

[Noel King]

You anytime you have an event like this. It is a case of America telling a story of itself, about itself. What do you think is the story that America is telling about itself here today?

[Meredith Lair]

So I could speak for my students. My students, they often will express in their essays and so forth, like this true faith that we are marching towards progress, that everything in the United States will get better and better and better. And I think that the parade is in a way a sort of metaphor for that where we can see with the, there's going to be the soldiers in colonial uniforms and advancing in time all the way to the 21st century. So there's a progression there in the style of clothing and in the technology and the ability to move troops and supplies from here to there. And so the parade gives a feeling of this inexorable march towards progress. But the reality of American history is that things will advance forward and things will advance back. The army has a really rich history. And the army can claim in celebrating its history, the liberation of Europe alongside American allies. It can claim, you know, for individuals, a commitment to duty and faithful service. And as an army brat and the daughter, proud daughter of a Vietnam veteran, I embrace the good parts of that history. But as a historian, I also have to recognize very few flawed parts of the Army's story. But those stories will not be represented here.

[Noel King]

Meredith Lair of George Mason University the most exciting part of the parade was leaving the parade on Saturday. You had to exit directly into a group of protesters and you thought, surely this is going to get ugly. And then it didn't. There were a couple shouting matches that quickly wilted. It did seem possible that Minnesota and how easily these things can spin out was on everyone's mind. Lee Babarowska is from Minnesota. He was there to protest. But when I asked him about the killings in his home state, Lee sounded an awful lot like the former cop that he is. They'll catch him. I guarantee they'll catch him. There's no way they're not going to. Victoria Chamberlain was there. She produced today's show. Miranda Kennedy edited with help from Jolie Myers. We were fact checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd and Matthew Billy. And I'm Noel King. It's Today, explained.

[Meredith Lair]

Sam.