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- [00:01]
Estad Herndon
So late last year, the Internet asked an important question. Are boyfriends embarrassing now? And turns out just about everybody has an opinion.
- [00:11]
Shantae Joseph
If you have not read the British Vogue article, is having a boyfriend embarrassing? You need to run, not walk.
- [00:16]
Jane Ward
I think for me it's that I.
- [00:18]
Shantae Joseph
Don'T want my identity or to tie myself to my relationship. The fact that this even had to.
- [00:23]
Estad Herndon
Be written is a clear wake up call for men.
- [00:25]
Shantae Joseph
I will never get behind this narrative that women don't need men and men don't need women.
- [00:30]
Jane Ward
Why would I allow anyone, let alone a man, lower the standard I worked so hard to earn? Like people did this clapback, uh, Vogue is this embarrassing and it's a mediocre guy.
- [00:47]
Estad Herndon
Coming up on Today explained from Vox, an investigation into one of last year's biggest topics are straight people. Okay.
- [01:00]
Odoo Sponsor
Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.
- [02:24]
Estad Herndon
This is Today explained. Shantae Joseph writes about relationships, culture, lifestyle, friendships and loneliness. And she wrote a piece in 2025 for Vogue that went viral, probably because it was titled is having a boyfriend embarrassing Now?
- [02:41]
Shantae Joseph
The piece was essentially asking this question if having a boyfriend has kind of lost the social standing it once provided women. And I was analyzing this through the lens of social media. I was looking at the way that women are very private about posting their romantic partners online. A lot of People were kind of sticking emojis over their boyfriend's heads. You know, we all kind of seen this, and I think it started to ramp up, and then it became a little bit of a parody where people would just edit out their boyfriend's heads completely. But then I noticed that people would post, like, their wedding videos or they would post their engagement videos and engagement photos. And in these very, I guess, private moments, they were online, but they were edited in a way that you never knew what the husband looked like. And I was like, okay, this is feeling a bit extreme. And fair enough if you are, you know, maybe a celebrity or a huge influencer, but people I knew with, like, 10 followers were doing that, and I was like, why are you doing this? And so I really wanted to, yeah, explore this strange trend.
- [03:41]
Estad Herndon
And you're noticing something that has really become clear on the timeline. I remember, like, boyfriend reveals or things like that, but it's gone to outright hiding. So what did your piece find? And kind of. What did you even mean by the question of embarrassing?
- [03:56]
Shantae Joseph
So I found basically three things. The first was, you know, people said they didn't want to do this simply for privacy reasons. That sounds more like it's external validation from social media. There are people who truly value privacy. I'm one of those people because I'm an autonomous person.
- [04:11]
Jane Ward
I mean, honestly, unless there's a ring involved. Wait, no, scratch that. Unless you have literally walked down the aisle with someone, there's really no reason to be posting them on your social media.
- [04:20]
Shantae Joseph
And then they would go on to say, well, if I posted my boyfriend and he cheated on me next week and I had to go back and delete the pictures, people would be like, well, where's so and so? How's so and so? And I'd have to deal with the shame of that. But then there were women who just outright. The idea of having a boyfriend they felt was embarrassing inherently because it didn't align with, like, the brand, is why I got a lot.
- [04:41]
Jane Ward
I think in this day and age, men are detrimental to a woman's brand.
- [04:48]
Shantae Joseph
If you have a boyfriend and he sucks, he's terrible, he treats you poorly, you don't want to be telling people that because, like, what does that say about you? You know, a lot of people felt like if I post my boyfriend on Instagram or on social media, I'm indicating something about me to the world that I don't want people to know. In the piece, one of the comments that I quote is this idea of someone saying, I do recognize that Having.
- [05:11]
Jane Ward
A boyfriend is kind of a Republican thing to do. I'm not Republican, but I recognize that it is.
- [05:17]
Shantae Joseph
And now our relationships will, particularly straight relationships, say more about us than they ever did before. Like they almost a political inclination in a way that I don't think straight people's identities have really been politicized in that way. Whereas before if you posted your boyfriend online, it felt like a sense of achievement, but now it kind of feels like you are kind of like reverting to kind of old archaic ways. And I think it's the way that the sort of like heterosexual romantic relationship has almost been co opted a little bit by the right. It feels traditionally very sort of conservative. I feel like I'm aligning to this idea of the world that doesn't really feel natural to me. That's what's really got people. And I think this is also because of the rise in like the tradwife movement and this whole idea of like, you know, I'm just with my man and I'm making, you know, butter and air from scratch and he's out working. And it just represents that very kind of traditional cultural way of living that kind of gives people the ick a bit. This idea that you now represent an ideology that isn't aligned to you because of your partner is definitely new.
- [06:23]
Estad Herndon
Yeah. I was gonna ask specifically about how we should think about this alongside rising trends like trad wife and others. You mentioned it. I mean, are these things that are happening at the same time, are these just different communities?
- [06:33]
Shantae Joseph
I think they are happening at the same time because I think about the reaction to my piece, whether it's from, you know, the men who were just really angry that I could ever talk disparagingly about men, or the women who were very proud of their relationships, feeling as if this was an attack on them. I think the way we talk about relationships online has changed so much. I was talking about the who the fuck did I marry? Part 37 who the fuck did I marry? All the Danish deception. And I knew this man has the power to destroy me.
- [07:04]
Jane Ward
And that was exhilarating but also terrifying at the same time.
- [07:07]
Shantae Joseph
These women coming online making These, you know, 60 part TikTok videos detailing all of the horrible things that have happened to me.
- [07:14]
Estad Herndon
Weston, Caleb.
- [07:15]
Jane Ward
I also have a story about West Elm, Caleb. So around Halloween we masked on hinge.
- [07:20]
Estad Herndon
I remember that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [07:22]
Shantae Joseph
So there is no sort of illusion around the fantasy anymore. And so I think that has gripped a lot of people.
- [07:29]
Estad Herndon
Yeah. I wanted to ask about the Reaction. Why do you think it struck a nerve in such a way? And I wanna specifically ask about, like, was there any pushback that you got that you felt was legitimate?
- [07:39]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah. Yeah. I would say a lot of women initially responded to this piece thinking it was about me pitting women against other women. And this whole idea of, like, you're not standing in solidarity with other women, you know, this is also part of the problem. And I to really stress to them, this isn't necessarily about you guys. I'm not saying that you're doing something wrong or there's something wrong with you or your relationship is wrong, but I'm saying that there is a way that men have been allowed to behave and act in society for so long that has only gotten worse. And I did understand how it could initially read like that feeling as if, you know, people were being shamed. This idea that I, you know, hate love or I'm shaming people for finding love. I think that it's the opposite. I love love. I think it's wonderful. And, you know, but then obviously, there was a lot of kind of hateful abus, a lot of racist abuse. Men talking about, like, the way that they'd want to see me abused and die. And, you know, it was really awful. And I think I definitely struck a nerve, particularly with men, because I thoroughly believe that this emotional space, this sort of dating space, feels like the last place that they can really have true domination. When women are more educated than men, you know, we are working jobs, we're running our households, like the family, the work. These are spaces that men predominantly had, like, huge amounts of power over. And I think they are losing a lot of that. And so I think it just. It was this sort of, like, feeling like they're losing that made them really scramble. And also, I think because I was black as well, I got a lot of, like, racist abuse on top of this. It kind of felt like I was ruining the sort of, like, sanctity of these, like, straight white relationships. Like, I was an adversary to them. And so it was quite. It was quite loaded when I went through a lot of the abuse. And I could kind of see where these people were getting riled up from.
- [09:26]
Estad Herndon
You write in the piece that you did, a call out on your Instagram and the responses from followers said that there was, quote, an overwhelming sense from single and partnered women that regardless of the relationship, being with a man was almost a guilty thing to do. So are we talking here just about, like, shame of heterosexuality partnerships? Like, it seems like straightness is at the core of this.
- [09:45]
Shantae Joseph
Oh yeah, 100%. And I think this is what really like upset people as well. Because we don't talk about heterosexuality in this way. We're very much. We see it as a norm. This is just the way to be in society. And so we should never really question what's going on here. But actually I was like, no, it's deeper than that. So one of the inspirations behind this piece was a book by Professor Jane Ward. Her book is called the Tragedy of Heterosexuality. And in the book she has a chapter that is dedicated to the things that queer people say behind their straight friends backs. And it was absolutely fascinating to get into the perception of straightness, straight people and straight culture. And I think the idea of embarrassment definitely came from reading that and really realizing the ways that, yeah, straight culture is very embarrassing.
- [10:30]
Estad Herndon
I can tell you what I thought when I read the piece. I thought, well, one, are you embarrassing? Is a question you have to ask yourself, you know, like, as a boyfriend, like, you know, are you one that encourage, like that can be proud of. Right. As a question I feel like it inspires. But there's also something that I think I want to bring up in this convo, you know, like. Cause it does sometimes feel as if when we talk about dating on the Internet, like it's all, you know, like, I don't wanna defend the boys, but I'm saying, like it does sometimes feel like, you know, in straight relationships we talk about women as perfect daters and perfect friends and it's only a question of like, male lack. And it probably is, but you know, is it always? And so I feel like that's probably another tone that I think comes up. But it's funny because I read, you know, when I asked my girlfriend about it, she said just pretty. I was like, well, do you think it's true? She's like, well, yeah. And so it was so assumed that I think that actually that could also be part of the reaction too is cause for boys. You didn't realize just how embarrassing we've been.
- [11:37]
Shantae Joseph
But it's interesting because I've even had like whenever people kind of responded to me, but in a kind of kinder way, I would always take the time and I had like young boys, like messaging me being like, you know, I've read this piece and I'm like really worried and da, da, da. And I had to be like to them, look like you're so young, like you're still forming your identity, your values, who you are, like you don't need to worry about kind of being embarrassing right in the this moment because you're still coming to terms with who you are. But I would always say to them, you know, please be aware of the media that you're consuming, the people that you're learning from, the people who are telling you how to behave in relationships, and really evaluate if they are giving you advice that is going to help you be kind of better, know yourself better, be a better partner. Or is it like tricks and games and tactics? Like, just be aware of your media and the things that you've been taught to believe about women. Because this stuff starts really, really young. But, yeah, it is. I do see the. The ways in which men might feel like this just feels like another thing against us.
- [12:35]
Estad Herndon
And like, you know, you know, it's all good. I wanted to ask, what do you think we've learned about straight relationships from this episode?
- [12:44]
Shantae Joseph
Yeah, I think all I've learned is that there's this sort of from both sides. I think people are still trying to clamor onto the privilege that being in a relationship took a straight relationship gives them. And I think for some people, their anger to this piece was about them realizing that I might lose this privilege and they might not have many other privileges. And so losing this feels like a big deal. And then also, I think the biggest reaction from this piece came from, like, single women who were like, oh, my God, for the first time, I don't feel a sense of shame for my identity. And this was women in their 40s, but also teenagers. Teenagers messaging me being like, I've never had a boyfriend. And I felt really ashamed about that, and I felt bad about myself, and I thought there was something wrong with me or that I was ugly. And I was like, God, you are so young and you have already internalized all of these messages because you've been told your whole life to be in a relationship is the most important thing. And everything outside of that doesn't render me as an individual or, like, fascinating person. Like, I'm glad they felt better, but also I felt so upset that that conditioning runs so deep.
- [13:48]
Estad Herndon
Do you feel like you have come through this thinking, like, boyfriends are more or less embarrassing? Do you know what?
- [13:54]
Shantae Joseph
I think I've come away thinking that they're more embarrassing.
- [13:57]
Estad Herndon
I can't lie.
- [13:58]
Shantae Joseph
Because the men embarrassing and the women with boyfriends upset about this piece are even more embarrassing. So I'm like, damn, I might have to double down. Like.
- [14:12]
Estad Herndon
That's Shantae Joseph coming up. Are straight people even. Okay, we're going to ask Professor Jane Ward. Support for the show comes from Grow Therapy. Everyone thinks they're a therapist, especially in the new year when you might be getting advice from every corner of your life. Your feed, your group chat, even your barista. But here's the thing. Advice isn't therapy. Therapy is therapy. And if you're looking to start therapy with licensed professionals, Grow Therapy is there to help. Grow can connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the country, offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search therapists by what matters most to you, like insurance, specialty, identity or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow says. There are no subscriptions and no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Whatever challenges you're facing, Growth Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.comexplained to get started. That's growththerapy.comexplained. growththerapy.comexplained. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance.
- [15:54]
Odoo Sponsor
Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other, introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o.com.
- [16:35]
Version History Host
The idea behind Flappy Bird was so simple. You're a bird. You tap on the screen to go up, you let go to go down, and you try not to hit the pipes. That's all it was. And somehow that game became such a phenomenon that it kind of ruined its developer's life. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology, we tell the story of Flappy Bird, where it came from, how it became a cultural phenomenon, and what it meant to the person who made it. All that on Version History. Wherever you get podcasts.
- [17:13]
Jane Ward
You're listening to Today Explained. My name is Jane Ward. I'm a professor of Feminist studies at UC Santa Barbara, but I mostly work and teach in queer studies.
- [17:27]
Estad Herndon
And Jane, you wrote a book that our last guest, Shantae Joseph said was a bit of an inspiration for her viral article. The book was called the Tragedy of Heterosexuality. I guess I'll start with the obvious question then, what's so tragic about it?
- [17:42]
Jane Ward
So, you know, the book has clearly a provocative and playful title. But what got me thinking about this book is that queer people, at least in my orbit, had been having these conversations for decades about, are straight people okay?
- [18:03]
Shantae Joseph
Straight people are so weird. They're like, cooking is a woman's job. Unless you're grilling. Then it's a man's job.
- [18:09]
Jane Ward
I just found out that straight dudes are calling the thing that you grind up weed with a grindr a crusher, because grindr has gay connotations.
- [18:17]
Shantae Joseph
What?
- [18:18]
Jane Ward
What are straight people?
- [18:19]
Estad Herndon
Okay, get a grip.
- [18:21]
Jane Ward
That even became a meme. But long before, it was just a conversation we were having in our kitchens and at the gay bar. And really, what, you know, what's meant by this is that straight people often seem kind of miserable. They complain about each other a lot. Straight women in particular spend a lot of time expressing that they wish that they were lesbians, that it's sort of tragic to be heterosexual. I was talking to my friend today, and she was telling me, the moment that you get over your disgust for men, that's when they become actually quite bearable. Whatever the. What is that normal to say? Is that normal to think, I wish I was gay?
- [18:58]
Shantae Joseph
I wish I could be gay? Do it.
- [19:00]
Jane Ward
You can. You can get out there. Go eat some. In fact, the title comes actually from a line on Parks and Recreation where, you know, two of the main characters are taken as a lesbian couple, and they say, no, tragically, we're both heterosexual. Let me just get some details for your file. Now, are you two a couple? No, tragically, we are both heterosexual. So it was already out there, you know, in the cultural environment with people recognizing this. But I think the part that wasn't maybe so transparent to a lot of people, especially not straight people, was that queer people also really love being queer and love our lives and often feel a lot of gratitude and relief that we're not straight.
- [19:53]
Estad Herndon
Are you finding that heterosexuality is in trouble? That it is at some crossroads?
- [19:57]
Jane Ward
The book kind of centers on an argument that I make about the misogyny contradiction, which is that modern heterosexual identity, starting in the early 20th century, starts to require something new of married men and women, which is that they're supposed to kind of like each other. And that wasn't actually important to marriage for centuries. You know, and men in particular are supposed to kind of care about women, care about what their women partners, how they feel, their general well being. There's supposed to be some degree of mutual respect. And this is called companionate marriage. And it comes to define how we think about being straight. And yet at the same time that people are confronted with this new norm, which is that you're supposed to actually like and love your spouse, these same people are still raised in a misogynistic culture, one that normalizes boys and men hatred of girls and women.
- [21:02]
Estad Herndon
I'm just too emotionally available for one. I'm too consistent and I'm loyal and I make money.
- [21:08]
Jane Ward
Money.
- [21:09]
Estad Herndon
Those are just some of the things that I, I think women have a problem with. They don't know how to, how to.
- [21:14]
Shantae Joseph
Deal with that data.
- [21:15]
Jane Ward
Sleepy girl. You won't have to worry about them cheating. All they do is eat, sleep, nap and yap.
- [21:21]
Estad Herndon
Your life will get easier when you start seeing women as children. They cry, they're going to whine for attention, they're going to not know what's going on. They have no self awareness. And when you understand this, you can handle them better.
- [21:31]
Jane Ward
We have not undone the centuries of patriarchy and misogyny that are pretty foundational to the human experience. Experience. And so the book kind of opens with this historical development and then looks at what I call the heterosexual repair industry, which is all of these ways that mainstream culture tries to resolve this problem through self help, you know, all these online cultures and mostly fails.
- [21:57]
Estad Herndon
You know, I think this is an important point. You know, you're making clear how on one hand, the idea of partners as companions, particularly heterosexual relationships as companions of mutual interest is a fairly new idea, but it's at odds with the culture that is often producing men who seem incapable of creating those relationships.
- [22:17]
Jane Ward
Exactly. It's the norm and it's the. Maybe it would be more accurate to say it's the aspiration. And yet we're not actually producing those relationships. And so it's very disappointing for both women and men.
- [22:30]
Estad Herndon
Do you think the discourse around heterosexuality is changing? Like how should we qualify how we think about straight relationships now even versus, you know, five, 10 years ago?
- [22:40]
Jane Ward
Oh, absolutely. I think it's changing. I mean, even subjecting heterosexuality to analysis is a big change. Certainly to have such widespread attention be paid to what's troubling about heterosexuality or to the way that heterosexuality is failing people is a huge transformation. In fact, I've actually been really kind of surprised by how quickly these sorts of conversations about heteropessimism a tragedy of heterosexuality really penetrated the culture. And I think that's thanks to social media in many ways. And I think there's still tremendous hunger for conversations about, you know, what are we going to do with heterosexuality? Because it isn't working.
- [23:27]
Estad Herndon
Can you define heteropessimism for us?
- [23:31]
Jane Ward
So heteropessimism is not my concept. Asa Saracen coined that term in an essay in 2019. And it's such a useful term. And based on basically what they were getting at was the way that many straight people performatively express their embarrassment, their dissatisfaction, their resignation about heterosexuality. The things I would give to not.
- [24:00]
Shantae Joseph
Have to date men.
- [24:02]
Jane Ward
They pretty much do this thing where they're fully into you and then they pull back. And then also, none of them can communicate for shit, let alone even say, I'm sorry. And what Saracen says is, you know, it's performative, not in that it's like, fake. It's performative in that that's all it does. It's just an expression. These are not people who are actually gonna stop being straight because of it. And so it's very popular on social media, for instance, for, you know, young people to talk about, like, oh, God, I wish I wasn't. You know, I wish I wasn't straight. This really is, you know, kind of out there in the atmosphere. And it's such a useful concept that I think is part of what people are thinking about on TikTok. That then is like a building block for Shantae's article, you know, and it.
- [24:53]
Estad Herndon
Reminds me of a conversation that happens in kind of my political reporting world about the growing gap, particularly among men and women and younger generations. There's a lot of data that tells us that, you know, women have gone to the left as men have gone to the right. We've seen this kind of explored in social media with trad wifey phenomenons versus a podcast bro red pilling. You know, I wanted to put that in front of you. Like, how much do we think this is a broader change in culture that's reflected in relationships versus how much is this being, you know, driven by the individuals?
- [25:24]
Jane Ward
I think these are broad trends, and it makes sense that we see people doing things that seem quite different on the political from women saying having a boyfriend or a husband is embarrassing to women who wanna be trad wives? I mean, I think, you know, not to get, like, too theoretical, but hit us with it. Okay, so, you know, the Italian philosopher Antonio Gramsci wrote about this very kind of cultural Instability that when there's a longstanding norm like patriarchal marriage and it starts to crumble in some way, people catch onto the fact it isn't really working. But we don't have a good alternative yet. We haven't, as a society invented the next new thing. This produces kind of like a collective identity crisis, a lot of uncertainty. And so a lot of people, where they go with that is they double down on tradition. They're not really ready to make that next. I think it's sort of an evolutionary step, but for some people, they see it as everything's ruined. And so they have a lot of anxiety about that. So it's. I do think it makes sense. We see all of these strategies right.
- [26:38]
Estad Herndon
Now, all of them happening at once.
- [26:39]
Jane Ward
Yes.
- [26:41]
Estad Herndon
I wanted to ask about fixes, solutions. Some of this in the heteropessimism of it all can feel just like a growing divide that shows no signs of getting closer. Is that how you see it? Are there any answers to this gap beyond don't be straight?
- [27:02]
Jane Ward
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there are straight people and they're not going away. So that's not the answer. And I think people sometimes wanna make it more complicated than it is. I mean, to my mind, the answer is feminism. And specifically the answer is that we need men to embrace feminism as their own project. And I don't think, you know, very few men have done that. We see even fewer men identifying as feminist than in older generations. And so where I go with this in the tragedy of heterosexuality is to say, look, there's something kind of suspicious sort of half baked about heterosexual masculinity right now, because on the one hand, straight men say that they're really into women, but their actions suggest that they don't actually. And so I think feminism is a way for straight men to demonstrate that they actually like women so much. They're so heterosexual that they actually like women. You know, they care. They want to listen to women talk, they care about women's ideas, they want to follow women's leadership.
- [28:19]
Estad Herndon
They'll be friends with women.
- [28:20]
Jane Ward
Yes, they're friends with women. They watch movies about women, they read books written by women. I mean, it's just kind of amazing how narrowly we have defined heterosexuality, sexual masculinity. And it's so different from the way lesbians think about our sexuality. It's like, you know, for me, the fact that I'm attracted to women is inseparable from wanting what's best for girls. And women as a whole, you know nothing about that. Is specific to being a lesbian. Straight men could do that, too, but they have to want to. And I think they have to kind of hit rock bottom. And maybe, maybe they are.
- [29:00]
Estad Herndon
Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
- [29:02]
Jane Ward
Absolutely. Thank you.
- [29:07]
Estad Herndon
Jane Ward's book is the Tragedy of Heterosexuality. Today's show was produced by Avishai Artsy and edited by Amina Elsadi. Laura Bullard was on Facts, Patrick Boyd engineered. I'm Estad Herndon and this is Today Explorer playing.