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- [00:01]
Jacqueline Hill
It's a weird time for universities right now.
- [00:04]
Lynn Hatter
We spend more money on higher education than any other country and yet they're turning our students into communists and terrorists. We can't let this happen. It's time.
- [00:14]
Jacqueline Hill
From private schools like Harvard and Columbia to big state schools, universities are on high alert. Take Florida A and M University, for example. One of the top historically black colleges in the country, an ally of Governor Ron DeSantis, unexpectedly became the new president, much to the dismay of student Right.
- [00:33]
Lynn Hatter
This very minute, a group of activists, Republicans are trying to put in the highest position of power someone who is solidly and objectively unqualified for it. Her name is Marva Johnson. FAMU deserves better.
- [00:50]
Jacqueline Hill
How Black colleges are faring in Red states that's coming up on today. Explained.
- [01:00]
Lynn Hatter
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- [01:07]
Jacqueline Hill
Create attention grabbing, lead driving, quota crushing.
- [01:10]
Lynn Hatter
Campaigns in an instant.
- [01:11]
Dr. Mark Brown
Get started today@HubSpot.com AI support for this show comes from WhatsApp. The personal chat on WhatsApp is a place where you share everything from the mundane connections to the memories that mean everything. It's a place that can truly feel like it's your own. And WhatsApp makes sure everything stays protected from outside eyes, even theirs. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages. That includes personal calls plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.
- [02:08]
Jacqueline Hill
It's TODAY Explained. I'm Jacqueline Hill, guest hosting Today. To learn more about Florida A&M's new president, we called up Lynn Hatter. She's a director of content at WFSU Public Media in Tallahassee. She's also a FAMU alumni. I asked her why a university president appointment is such a big deal in the first place.
- [02:28]
Dr. Mark Brown
Well, it used to not be a big deal, but over the past couple of years you've seen Governor Ron DeSantis exercising a lot more control and authority over who gets appointed to these presidencies. We've had many political appointees that the governor himself has interviewed. And then through his ability to install members of university boards of trustees and also the state's University System governing board, he has been able to exercise his preference for the leaders of these institutions.
- [03:05]
Jacqueline Hill
Who is Marva Johnson?
- [03:07]
Dr. Mark Brown
Well, she's a highly successful public sector lobbyist. She was one of the main lobbyists for Charter Communications, which is one of the largest cable providers in the United States.
- [03:18]
Lynn Hatter
So we have Marva Johnson from Charter.
- [03:21]
Dr. Mark Brown
And she has long been aligned with Florida Republican politics. She previously served on our state Board of Education. Now that's the group that oversees Our K through 12 and what used to be our community and state colleges here in the state. She was an elector for President Donald Trump at one point in time. And she's got strong ties within the Florida GOP that allow us to continue to make the infrastructure investment in rural communities that leaders like our governor Ron DeSantis have framed for us. All of that raised alarms among FAMU alumni and stakeholders because while Johnson has been highly successful in the public sector, she has very little experience at the state university system level and no experience in sort of the day to day runnings of a university at any level. And so that coupled with her GOP ties are what have really sort of set up and really kind of raised alarm for FAMU if she doesn't have that experience.
- [04:26]
Jacqueline Hill
How did she become president in the first place?
- [04:29]
Dr. Mark Brown
Well, she went through a search process. There's a lot involved with that. She was not initially among the three finalists selected. She was a last minute addition to the finalist list. How that came to pass, nobody really knows. I hope the board of trustees heard loud and clear. We have three overly qualified candidates. There's nothing she's bringing. Why would you not listen to your constituents?
- [04:55]
Lynn Hatter
You have three candidates with significant university experience. One candidate, zero university experience.
- [05:07]
Dr. Mark Brown
It's just like, hey, I served on a board for a hospital for the last eight years, but does that mean I can now go and be a doctor or I can go and be the CEO of a hospital? No. And that is something that has also raised a lot of concerns among the university community, which is how did she get there when she did not meet the qualifications that the university itself laid out for what it wanted in a president.
- [05:33]
Jacqueline Hill
How has Johnson pitched herself to the FAMU community?
- [05:37]
Dr. Mark Brown
Well, she was put on the defensive.
- [05:39]
Lynn Hatter
No Magmar, no Magna Marva, no Magmarva.
- [05:45]
Dr. Mark Brown
During her interview process, the public side of the interview process, she did not face a very welcoming crowd. And a lot of people there basically asked her, do you feel that in.
- [05:58]
Lynn Hatter
This climate, under these circumstances, that you, in being supportive of Governor DeSantis could actually protect FAMU?
- [06:10]
Dr. Mark Brown
And her response was really telling. And her response basically said, if the general public perception is that Governor DeSantis likes me, then wouldn't it stand to reason that if there's that he wants me to be successful? And so it was very contentious throughout her process at Some points she demonstrated that she really did not know a lot about FAMU, the PharmD program. Those students actually can do everything that the doctoral programs require under the R1 designation. They even do a dissertation, which is something that FAMU's own board chairwoman raised. Concerns with many answers were hollow, many statements were false. PharmD students don't require a dissertation to graduate from Florida A and M. And so there's been a lot just around, what are her motivations? Who is she here for? What does she hope to obtain with famu, and what is her end goal? And by extension, what is the objective of the people who put her in this position?
- [07:28]
Lynn Hatter
FAMU wants a leader that represents us, who is not a political ploy, or someone who does not have experience in higher education, but someone who represents the true values of what our mother. FAMU was founded on in 1887. That's love and charity. And unfortunately, members of her party and members of people who are aligned with.
- [07:43]
Dr. Mark Brown
Her don't represent the true values of love and charity. This may have started with a black college in Florida, but best believe it will not end there. So the fight that we take up in this moment is for famu, but it's not just for famu. It's for all of black America. The moment demands action, and the opposition will be televised.
- [08:06]
Jacqueline Hill
What's the worry that Johnson will do as president? What is the. What is the big fear there?
- [08:13]
Dr. Mark Brown
The big fear with Johnson is that she will give up or be willing to let go of several programs that fam you has long prided itself on. The university has recently come under fire for the past couple of years by the state university system governing board for low passage rates on its pharmacy program and its nursing program. These are some of the oldest programs in the state in these disciplines and some of the oldest programs at HBCUs in general. And the university is deeply concerned that Johnson will simply try to kill off those programs. You know, this backlash is really existential, and it's fueled in historic disparities that FAMU has faced over time. Florida A and M used to run a hospital that was taken from them. Florida A and M university's college of law was dismantled and it was given to Florida State University. And so you've had these historical issues that are really kind of fueling the distrust that people are feeling at the moment.
- [09:23]
Jacqueline Hill
What does this story tell us about how HBCUs are navigating this particular political climate?
- [09:29]
Dr. Mark Brown
I think the primary concern with HBCUs is is that they are increasingly facing many of the same situations that other institutions are facing, which is the loss of federal funding, potential changes in how federal student aid is allocated, the loss of federal research grants. But with HBCUs, especially if they're public, that public money plays an outsized role in their ability to finance themselves. And they're a lot more vulnerable to public financing changes than a lot of your predominantly white institutions are. And so they're struggling with how do we diversify our funding sources to ensure that we're still going to be here for another 130 plus years. I will point out that one thing about Marva is Ms. Johnson that is really interesting is that her argument, you know, for being named president was if you're so concerned about losing state funding, then wouldn't it benefit you to hire an ally of the people who control that funding?
- [10:47]
Lynn Hatter
6% of the alumni are givers. Unfortunately, the rest of the money comes from the state. We're going to need somebody who can not only raise money, somebody who's going to have to take in mind that our students are our number one customer and constituent. This moment calls for someone who understands the systems that fund and govern us. Because right now our survival depends on how we navigate those systems.
- [11:13]
Dr. Mark Brown
That is not an invalid argument, right? That argument makes perfect sense. I think the question for famu that only FAMU can answer is does that make perfect sense for it as an institution?
- [11:40]
Jacqueline Hill
That's Lynn Hatter at WFSU in Tallahassee. Coming up, the view from the president's desk at another black university in another red.
- [12:10]
Dr. Mark Brown
Support for Today explained comes from Shopify. If you have a business idea or just an idea of some something you want to sell, you won't get far without the right tools. But you can start with Shopify, says Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind many millions of online stores around the world and they say 10% of all E commerce in the US from household names such as Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Their design studio lets you build an online store that matches your style. You can choose from ready made templates or you can use their helpful AI tools. Shopify says that you can create email and social media campaigns with ease and meet your customers where they're at. If you're ready to sell, you can be ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for a $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com explain. Go to shopify.com explains shopify.com explained SFX. It's been reported that 1 in 4 people experience sensory sensitivities, making everyday experiences like a trip to the dentist especially difficult. In fact, 26% of sensory sensitive individuals avoid dental visits entirely. In Sensory Overload, a new documentary produced as part of Sensodyne's Sensory Inclusion Initiative, we follow individuals navigating a world not built for them, where bright lights, loud sounds and unexpected touches can turn routine moments into overwhelming challenges. Burnett Grant, for example, has spent their life masking discomfort in workplaces that don't accommodate neurodivergence. I've only had two full time jobs where I felt safe, they share. This is why they're advocating for change through deeply personal stories like Burnett's, Sensory Overload highlights the urgent need for spaces, dental offices and beyond that. Embrace sensory inclusion because true inclusion requires action with environments where everyone feels safe. Watch Sensory Overload now streaming on Hulu. Critics and audiences agree Netflix's Nobody Wants.
- [14:20]
Lynn Hatter
This is the Best Comedy of the Year. You're the rabbi.
- [14:23]
Jacqueline Hill
It's hot, right?
- [14:23]
Lynn Hatter
The Hollywood Reporter raves. Kristen Bell and Adam Brody share crackling chemistry. Is there a world where this works? Yeah. Nobody wants this is 2024's winner of.
- [14:31]
Dr. Mark Brown
The American Film Institute TV program of the Year, Godspeed Hot Rabbi.
- [14:36]
Lynn Hatter
It sets the romantic comedy standard for the new age.
- [14:38]
Dr. Mark Brown
You called me your friend in front of the teens whose opinion I care about most.
- [14:42]
Lynn Hatter
That was so Susan.
- [14:44]
Dr. Mark Brown
Nobody Wants this for your Emmy consideration.
- [14:46]
Lynn Hatter
In all categories, including outstanding Comedy Series.
- [14:49]
Jacqueline Hill
Today. We're back. I'm Jonathan Hill filling in as host. Depending on the numbers you look at, there's something like 107 HBCUs in the country. They're public and private. They're big research institutions and small liberal arts colleges. I wanted to get a better sense of what things feel like on these campuses, given the Trump administration's attacks on universities. So I talked with Dr. Mark Brown, Tuskegee University's president.
- [15:20]
Lynn Hatter
So feel is a good question, right? So you use the term feel.
- [15:23]
Jacqueline Hill
Tuskegee University in Alabama was founded by Booker T. Washington in 1881. It's ranked number three among HBCUs overall, tied with Florida A and M University. I'm familiar with Tuskegee. I have family members that graduated from there and who have taught at the school, too.
- [15:41]
Lynn Hatter
So some measurable things would be the White house initiative on HBCUs.
- [15:45]
Jacqueline Hill
President Donald Trump signed an executive order this week to help grow historically black colleges and universities. He plans to team up with nonprofits and government agencies to grow America's workforce in technology, healthcare and manufacturing.
- [15:58]
Lynn Hatter
The order directs federal agencies to increase Federal opportunities for HBCUs, including grants and contracts. We've not seen all of the execution of that, but that's where I think you'll find measurable results. The president has publicly said, as has the Secretary of Education, that that they are supportive of, of historically black colleges and universities. I got the historically black colleges and universities. I got them more money than they ever dreamt possible, and they're in great shape now and they have long term financing. Nobody did that but Donald Trump. Okay. And then we have done quite a bit to make sure Everybody understands something. HBCUs are not diversity, equity and inclusion universities, nor have we ever been. We are merit based schools. Anybody can apply to come to Tuskegee, and if they qualify, they can come. We have never said, send me three of these and three of those. We've never said that nor have any of our universities. It is confusion if we are associated with the pattern of diversity, equity, inclusion. Having said that, if someone wrote in the federal government a grant, and that grant said that we are specifically looking at a particular subgroup under the category diversity, equity, inclusion. And the decision is that across, not just HBCUs, across the educational spectrum, those grants have to be pulled back, then HBCUs, not because they are HBCUs, but because they are using that grant, would be impacted. Let me give you an example. We have work that we do with University of Alabama, Birmingham, and it is on cancer research, cervical, prostate, those kind of cancers. Specifically, it deals with the genealogy of it. In other words, it's important where you do the research. It's important where you get the samples. The grant provides the payroll, or a good portion of the payroll, so that we can hire the best researchers to come to Tuskegee and do that research using samples. And it's important because the morbidity rate of certain cancers are far greater in our region, in our area, than they are in others. So if the person writing the grant specifically targeted an area under the category bei, it wouldn't matter if we were UAB or if you're the partner, Tuskegee on the other end, if you had that broad category swap, you would impact us both. And it does. So I want to make sure. Is it a matter of policy or is it a matter of just pure confusion, I guess is the question. But we got to work all that out. It's far more complex than I think some would want to make it.
- [19:03]
Jacqueline Hill
Is there a consensus among black academic leaders right now? Are you at all anxious about the future of HBCUs, or are you feeling more optimistic because of Trump's statements of support right now?
- [19:16]
Lynn Hatter
So let me, let me again, kind of reframe it in my way of looking at this. Here's what people in higher education ought to be concerned about, and I believe they are. There is a budget, right? And the House of Representatives has submitted it to the Senate for Action 2026 President's budget. There are reductions in things like grad plus loans. There are reductions in the way that you use Pell Grants, those people who would be eligible, income levels, those kind of things. There are policies like risk sharing as it relates to defaulted loans over time that ought to concern schools who service students in need. And here's what I mean. 9 out of 10 students at historically black colleges and universities have some form of federally assisted financial aid. Almost nine out of ten, when you look at it, some form, some it's the Pell Grant, some it's Stafford loans. Access to education will be impacted by that legislation. Anybody paying attention, though, would be concerned. But I want to be careful about one thing. What is the issue? Is it the issue that we're at HBCUs or is the issue of poverty? In other words, I want to make sure we frame it the right way. Because I'm at Georgia Tech, depending on a Pell Grant and a parent plus loan to go to grad school to get a doctorate in engineering, I'm just as impacted. If I'm down here trying to get a doctorate in engineering at Tuskegee, how do we make sure they have access? Historically, since the Higher Education act of 1965, that access is determined by the federal assistance programs that are in Title 4.
- [21:12]
Jacqueline Hill
Most students, like you said, most students at HBCUs rely on Pell Grants or, you know, some form of federal aid. What happens if access to those resources changes? What happens to the students? What happens to the universities?
- [21:26]
Lynn Hatter
Here's what happens. In 2011, I think it is the policy was to change access to the, what we call typically the parent plus loan across the country, not just to any particular demographic. 3 to 4% immediate reduction in enrollment across HBCUs. Access went down. That's evidence. Access went down. At the same time across the country, enrollment went up. So I'm not saying it was targeted. I'm talking about the outcome. So that's what happens. That's what happens. If you reduce access to those programs, you're going to reduce access to students ability to go to college. And I'll take that just a Little bit further. So let's say, how do we fill the gap? One way is to get an endowed scholarship. Right. Schools. The wealth of a university is based on the endowment to some degree. If you take the HBCU endowments and you add them all up, all of them, you will have less of an endowment than if you added up Brown University. Now, this is not a criticism of. I'm happy for the students at Brown University. I'm just trying to tell you the difference in the wealth that makes the impact far greater for a portion of society.
- [22:43]
Jacqueline Hill
In the first half of this show, we talked about Florida A and M, where, you know, the new president has ties to Republican Governor Ron DeSantis. A lot of HBCUs, including yours, are in states where Republicans hold the purse strings. I'm curious how you navigate that.
- [22:59]
Lynn Hatter
So education is politically neutral. I believe that education should be politically neutral, and I think statesmen would see it that way. Here's my point. We produce chemical engineers. We produce electrical engineers. We have an aviation science program. The nation is short on aviators. The plane doesn't know if you're Republican or Democrat. Right. The plane just knows that a qualified person has filled that need, which has an economic impact to this state.
- [23:27]
Jacqueline Hill
You know, I take what you mean, that I think a lot of this education stuff should be, you know, neutral, should be gender neutral, should be race neutral. But I often wonder if it is that way in practice. I mean, the disparities come from somewhere. I wonder how. How you navigate that.
- [23:48]
Lynn Hatter
I navigate that by making sure the framework of our discussions are the same. What is the economic impact of our state? Because I can have that discussion with anybody. The way you navigate this is in capability. Capability. And I really. I can't overemphasize capability, outcome and performance. That is what I want to drill into everybody at Tuskegee University is it's about the outcome. Did the student get an internship? Did they get experience? Did they graduate?
- [24:22]
Jacqueline Hill
Dr. Brown, you strike me as. I think a word I would use to describe you is very pragmatic, the way you approach things. And I think a lot of higher education institutions are trying to figure out the best approach to securing funds under this particular presidential administration. Where do you sit? How do you think about these things and approach it?
- [24:45]
Lynn Hatter
I would suggest the approach we ought take with this administration, any other administration, is that we are an economic engine that creates social and economic mobility for this country, and we take greater risk in doing so. And that should be recognized. That's the approach that we take. And I don't think the approach is unique to Tuskegee. You know, I could say that my friends in Huntsville, Alabama are doing the same thing at Alabama A and M. My friends at the Morehouse School of Medicine. Everybody should want the Morehouse School of Medicine to be successful. Everybody should want the Howard University School of Medicine to be successful. Everybody should want Claflin to be successful. Not just South Carolinians, but everybody. I think we live in a great country that can be greater just like any other country, but we're a part of it and we're part of the greatness. And so HBCU is a part of the greatness. And I think we need to continue to make sure everybody understands that.
- [25:54]
Jacqueline Hill
That was Dr. Mark Brown, Tuskegee University's president. Today's show was produced by Avishai Aartsi, edited by Aminah Alsati, Andrea Christensdotter and Patrick Boyd Engineered and Victoria Chamberlain was on fact checking D I'm Jacqueline Hill. Shout out to the real hu it's today explained. And before you go, we got a deal for you. If you're a fan of what we do here at Vox, we're having a membership sale. That means ad free versions of all our podcasts for 30% off. You'll also get unlimited access to all of Vox's journalism. Check it out. Your support is what funds our work. Sign up now@vox.com members sa.
- [27:06]
Lynn Hatter
And we're back folks. It looks like Jim from sales just got in from his client lunch and he's got receipts. His next meeting is in two minutes. The team is asking, can he get through his expenses in that time? He's going for it.
- [27:18]
Dr. Mark Brown
Is that his phone?
- [27:19]
Lynn Hatter
He's snapping a pick. He's texting around.
- [27:21]
Dr. Mark Brown
Jim is fast, but this is unheard of.
- [27:23]
Jacqueline Hill
That's it.
- [27:24]
Lynn Hatter
He's done it. It's unbelievable.
- [27:27]
Jacqueline Hill
On ramp expenses are faster than ever.
- [27:29]
Lynn Hatter
Just submit them with a text.
- [27:32]
Dr. Mark Brown
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