Breaking up with your parents

Summary

Today, Explained: Breaking Up with Your Parents

Released on November 22, 2024 | Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King | Produced by Vox

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Introduction

As the holiday season approaches, Noel King and Sean Rameswaram delve into a deeply personal and increasingly common issue: parental estrangement. While the holidays are a time of joy for many, they can be a period of emotional strain for those who have distanced themselves from their parents. The episode features Emmy Nietzsche, an author who has navigated the challenging path of cutting ties with her mother, and Dr. Joshua Coleman, a clinical psychologist specializing in familial relationships.

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Emmy Nietzsche’s Story of Estrangement

Emmy Nietzsche opens up about her decision to sever ties with her mother, providing a raw and honest account of her experiences:

Emmy Nietzsche [00:31]: "I cut my dad off like a couple weeks ago."

She reveals that her relationship with her mother was fraught with conflict from a young age, exacerbated by her mother's struggles with compulsive shopping and hoarding following her parents' divorce when Emmy was 11. Despite her mother's love, the constant blame and lack of support led Emmy to seek multiple psychiatric treatments during her adolescence, including a nine-month stay in residential care and time spent in foster homes.

Emmy Nietzsche [02:10]: "When I eventually made the tough decision to cut ties, I expected that my whole life would fall apart. That I would just miss her all day, every day. And I was totally shocked to find out that actually my life has been so much better since I made that decision."

Emmy discusses the pivotal moment when her mother failed to provide the necessary support following her sexual assault at 17, instead blaming her actions and decisions. This lack of empathy and understanding was the final catalyst for her decision to end the relationship.

Emmy Nietzsche [05:53]: "I just said I love you again and again, knowing that that might be the last time that I said I love you to my mom."

The immediate sense of relief Emmy felt after cutting ties contrasts sharply with the ongoing emotional turmoil faced by many estranged individuals.

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Expert Insights: Dr. Joshua Coleman on Parental Estrangement

Dr. Joshua Coleman shares his professional insights into the phenomenon of parental estrangement, drawing from his own experiences and extensive research.

Dr. Joshua Coleman [18:17]: "The most recent study was out of Ohio State with a sociologist named Rin Resnick and colleagues. And she found that 26% of fathers are currently estranged from a child in the U.S."

He highlights that estrangement is not confined to any one type of family structure, affecting over a quarter of fathers and a significant percentage of mothers. Coleman's research points to a rise in individualism, increased parental involvement, and the pervasive influence of technology as key drivers of this trend.

Dr. Joshua Coleman [18:56]: "It's a number of factors. I think that this moral shift ... has fueled this idea that cutting off people is considered a really assertive self-care, act of self-care."

Coleman emphasizes the shift towards valuing personal happiness and mental health over traditional familial obligations, which has made estrangement a more common and, in some cases, socially acceptable choice.

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Statistics and Prevalence of Estrangement

The episode delves into alarming statistics that underscore the prevalence of estrangement in modern society:

• 26% of fathers are estranged from at least one child in the U.S. (Rin Resnick, Ohio State)
• 6-12% of mothers experience estrangement from their children.
• 27% of adults over 18 are estranged from a family member, which may include siblings or other relatives (Carl Pillamer, Cornell).

These figures highlight estrangement as a widespread issue affecting a significant portion of the population.

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Causes of Increased Parental Estrangement

Several factors contribute to the rising rates of parental estrangement:

1. Individualism and Personal Well-being: The contemporary emphasis on individual happiness and mental health often leads individuals to prioritize their well-being over maintaining strained familial relationships.

2. Technological Accessibility: The ubiquity of communication technologies like texting and email makes it easier for estranged individuals to set and enforce boundaries, often leading to more definitive breaks.

   Emmy Nietzsche [09:16]: "If your mom had never learned how to email, if your mom had never learned how to text, there's a very good chance we would still have a relationship."

3. Parental Over-Involvement: Increased parental anxiety and involvement, driven by societal pressures and the need to ensure children's success, can lead to overbearing behaviors that push children away.

4. Lack of Empathy and Communication Skills: The inability of parents to empathize with their adult children’s perspectives or to communicate effectively exacerbates conflicts, making reconciliation difficult.

5. Social Media and Public Narratives: The portrayal of estrangement as a self-care virtue, coupled with the influence of social media narratives, encourages individuals to sever ties rather than work through familial issues.

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Strategies for Healing and Reconciliation

Despite the challenges, Dr. Coleman offers strategies for those seeking to mend strained relationships:

1. Empathy and Responsibility: Parents are encouraged to listen empathetically, take responsibility for their actions, and understand their children's perspectives without becoming defensive.

   Dr. Joshua Coleman [17:24]: "The right things are to take responsibility and to show empathy and to find the kernel, if not the bushel of truth in your child's complaints."

2. Letters of Amends: Coleman recommends that parents write letters of amends, acknowledging their child's feelings and expressing genuine remorse.

3. Establishing Boundaries: Clear and respectful boundaries are essential in rebuilding trust and fostering a healthy relationship dynamic.

4. Reducing Technological Barriers: Limiting constant communication can help in giving both parties the necessary space to heal and reflect.

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Impact on Future Generations

Emmy Nietzsche expresses concern about the normalization of estrangement for her daughter, fearing that the next generation may see it as a standard response to familial conflict.

Emmy Nietzsche [09:47]: "I could totally see a world where most people are estranged from their parents. I could totally see that coming. And do I think that that would be a good thing? No. No."

This perspective underscores the potential long-term societal implications of rising estrangement rates, emphasizing the need for fostering empathy and communication within families.

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Conclusion

"Breaking up with Your Parents" sheds light on the complex and emotionally charged issue of parental estrangement. Through Emmy Nietzsche's personal narrative and Dr. Joshua Coleman's expert analysis, the episode explores the multifaceted causes behind this trend and offers thoughtful strategies for healing and reconciliation. As societal values continue to evolve, understanding and addressing the roots of familial estrangement becomes increasingly vital for fostering healthier relationships in future generations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Emmy Nietzsche [00:31]: "I cut my dad off like a couple weeks ago."
• Emmy Nietzsche [02:10]: "When I eventually made the tough decision to cut ties, I expected that my whole life would fall apart. That I would just miss her all day, every day. And I was totally shocked to find out that actually my life has been so much better since I made that decision."
• Dr. Joshua Coleman [18:56]: "It's a number of factors. I think that this moral shift ... has fueled this idea that cutting off people is considered a really assertive self-care, act of self-care."
• Emmy Nietzsche [09:16]: "If your mom had never learned how to email, if your mom had never learned how to text, there's a very good chance we would still have a relationship."

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For more insights and detailed discussions, listen to the full episode of "Breaking up with Your Parents" on Today, Explained by Vox.

Transcript

[Noel King]

The holidays are basically here. It's the happiest time of the year for some and for others the opposite.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Life for me after Halloween is literally downhill. I picked up a snow globe the other day and just wanted to cry. Nobody wants to go home and see their Republican family members.

[Noel King]

There's an increasingly popular option for all the people who don't love seeing their parents during the holidays or or any other time of the year. You can peace out.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

So I cut my dad off like a couple weeks ago.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

I fully believe in protecting my own energy.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

This is my polite reminder that if you are no contact with your parents, that is okay.

So one thing I really did not expect when I became estranged from my parents was that I was gonna have to be consoling other people about it like semi frequently.

[Noel King]

We're gonna take a deep breath and then we're gonna talk about parental estrangement on Today Explained.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Support for Today Explained comes from Expedia. Expedia believes everybody should have somewhere to look forward to. That's the idea behind Unpack 2025 a report on next year's travel trends from Expedia, Hotels.com and Vrbo. Maybe you're looking for a destination that's off the beaten path. Maybe you're looking for a hotel with an award winning restaurant or a vacation rental. No matter what kind of travel you are, you can find inspiration with Unpacked25. Explore more travel trends and book your somewhere to look forward [e-mail] unpack25 support for this episode comes from AWS AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud.

[Noel King]

Explained Emmy Nietzsche is estranged from her mother. We asked her how she described that absence in her life and we were rather surprised by our answer.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Joyful. It feels like a huge relief has been lifted off of me.

[Noel King]

Hmm. Tell us how come.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

I love my mom. My mom loves or loved me. But throughout my whole adolescence there was so much fighting, there was so much feeling blamed, so much of trying to navigate like her own issues with trying to keep myself sane that when I eventually made the tough decision to cut ties, I expected that my whole life would fall apart. That I would just miss her all day, every day. And I was totally shocked to find out that actually my life has been so much better since I made that decision. When I was about 11, my parents divorce was finalized and my mom won custody and she had a problem with compulsive shopping and hoarding and it got really intense after the divorce. And that was also when my other parent moved across the country. And we never had contact really since then. And so my mom was all that I had, but she could not tell that she had a problem. And so when I was in middle school, she brought me to these therapists and psychiatrists and really pointed the blame at me and said, okay, Emmy is disorganized. Emmy is chronically late. I think she has adhd. And I was sent for medication. I took Adderall, I took Ritalin, I took Prozac, Zoloft, antidepressants, antipsychotics. A dozen drugs in two years. And it only got worse from there. I spent nine months in residential treatment when I was 14. I spent time in foster care. I got out of foster care, went to boarding school, but spent time homeless. My relationship with my mom just kind of got worse and worse because I, you know, it was like, okay, well why did I spend that year in foster care? And she was really like, you were troubled. Like you had to get your angeries out on another family. You were too much for me to deal with. And there was. I was ready to take 90% of the blame, but I couldn't take 100% of it. And this especially came to a head when it came to the way that my mom had handled my sexual assault when I was 17. And in the aftermath, my mom was like, sent me this email where it was like, you know, you shouldn't have been drinking. You should have said no loudly and clearly. Just all these things that I should have done differently. I was really, really struggling with ptsd. I was having an impossible time, like letting go of my own self blame. But this whole time, everybody just assumed that I should have a close relationship with my mom. And it was never even a question of could I cut ties with my mom, could I distance myself from my mom? It just was something that I had to do and was expected of me. And I started to realize, okay, I'm blaming myself, thinking the very same things that my mom told me and that. And my mom clung to that like she would not change her views. She would not let me off the hook. And I eventually was like, I'm not going to be able to get better if I'm still in contact with her.

[Noel King]

Did you say goodbye?

[Emmy Nietzsche]

When I called my mom, I really did not want to believe that that was the conversation that was going to end our relationship. But, you know, and I. And I confronted her about it, I was like, I really. I'm struggling with how you are dealing with this assault. And she was like, what could I tell you that would make you believe that I don't think it's your fault? And I told her. I was like, you could say it's not your fault, but she actually would not say it. It was just silence. And I was like, wow, I really feel like I have to do this, and this is the right decision for me. It was so hard to hang up the phone. I just said I love you again and again, knowing that that might be the last time that I said I love you to my mom. And then when I hung up, I felt so much relief immediately. Immediately. But then I started getting all of these text messages, all of these emails from my mom, just pretending that nothing had happened. And I think when the media talks about estrangement, it's often framed as, like, the moment of estrangement is the moment that you lose somebody. But what I experienced, and I think a lot of people experience, is that we've already lost that relationship or we've already lost the sense of love and safety that we want to have with somebody that makes them feel like family to us. It felt more like letting go of a lie than letting go of my actual real life mom.

[Noel King]

Does it bum you out that your daughter isn't gonna know your mom?

[Emmy Nietzsche]

I ended up getting a cousin to orchestrate my mom meeting my daughter. And so my husband took her over to a coffee shop. They spent, you know, an hour and a half together. And, you know, my mom got to hold her. My daughter's too young to remember it, but I. I think it was really important for me because it helped me believe that I'm not trying to punish my mom. And I think that the taboos against estrangement really push people to justify cutting ties in. In ways that aren't really healthy. You know, there's no estrangement police. There shouldn't be an estrangement police. And this is America. We have the right to never speak to our parents again. Really? Like, if you're like, oh, duty, obligation. It's like, that is not American.

[Noel King]

I love that you make it sound patriotic.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Just think of all the people at Ellis island holding a suitcase, thinking, I'm never gonna see my family again, and being overjoyed that that's the case. Back then, you really got a clean break, and now you almost have to estrange yourself because the person you don't want to talk to can text you all day, every day. And sometimes I wonder if my mom had never learned how to email. If my mom had never learned how to text, there's a very good chance we would still have a relationship.

[Noel King]

Oh, man. Brutal.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Yeah. No, it's true. Because people talk about estrangement like it's a technology problem, as if, like, TikTok and Instagram are just infecting everybody's minds with this idea. I think it's a technology problem in the other way, where we're way too accessible and there's no more etiquette anymore. So all we have left is boundaries. And sometimes the ultimate boundary of saying, I will never speak to you again.

[Noel King]

Let'S say in like, 15 years, you know, God forbid. I'm not wishing this upon you, but I'm just asking if your daughter maybe now has this idea that estrangement is kind of normal because you did it. If she decided, for example, she didn't want to talk to you anymore, how would you react? Do you think because you've had this experience, you'd try to understand it?

[Emmy Nietzsche]

I mean, I would be heartbroken, and I definitely think I would try to understand it. What I hope is that parents focus way more on how do I build a relationship of reciprocal affection, kindness, respect with my kids. Because there's a lot of people who are like, you owe your parents. They say, your parents raised you. The least you can do is suck it up and stay in this relationship that's making you really unhappy. And I just don't think that that tracks with the modern world or with modern life. People point out this breakdown between the generations, and I actually think that there's truth to that. I really think that there's not this continuity between, you know, parents and children and grandparents anymore. So I can actually totally see a world where most people are estranged from their parents. I could totally see that coming. And do I think that that would be a good thing? No. No. But do I think that would be understandable? Absolutely.

[Noel King]

Emmy Nietzsche. She's the author of a book called Acceptance, which is about a lot of the stuff she just told you about. But even more when we're back on Today Explained, a psychologist is going to tell us everything he knows about estrangement. And he knows quite a bit because his kid once stopped talking to him.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

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[Noel King]

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[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

Forced into I was married and divorced in my 20s and have an adult daughter who I'm very close to. But there was a period of time in her early 20s where she cut off contact with me for several years, largely as a result of my becoming remarried and having children in my second, which is my current marriage. And her feeling in some ways displaced, that she felt kind of pushed to the side in certain ways, that she got in some ways a worse quality of life in childhood and family life than my twins from my current marriage got, which, you know, in many ways is a fairly it's a kind of a reasonable assessment. But at the time when she raised it, I wasn't really prepared to hear it, how hurt she was or how displaced she felt or in certain ways neglected. And I responded defensively and maybe even angrily at the time. And, you know, of course that made it worse, as it often does. And so she eventually shut down contact for a while until I kind of learned to just be quiet. And more importantly, not to just be quiet, but to learn how to be empathic and take responsibility and find, you know, listen to her perspective and hear her out and be able to tolerate the mistakes that I had made and empathize with her rather than to defend myself.

[Noel King]

Okay, so it sounds like this was a bit of a trial and error experience for you. You discovered the wrong things to do as well as the right things to do. Tell us more about the right things to do.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

The right things are to take responsibility and to show empathy and to find the kernel, if not the bushel of truth in your child's complaints. To not be defensive, to not get mad, to assume that, you know, One of my methods is to have parents write what I call a letter of amends. And I say, you should always start your letter of amends by saying, I know you wouldn't do this unless it was the healthiest thing for you to do, because from the adult child's perspective, it is the healthiest thing for them to do. It may not feel that way to the parent. The parent's therapist may not feel like it's the healthiest thing for the kid to do. But it doesn't really matter, you know, the goal is to be in alignment with what your child's values are, particularly today, because nothing compels an adult child to have a relationship with a parent unless they want to.

[Noel King]

Can you help us understand how common estrangement is becoming or what the rates of estrangement are these days?

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

The most recent study was out of Ohio State with a sociologist named Rin Resnick and colleagues. And she found that 26% of fathers are currently estranged from a child in the U.S. wow. Which is huge right now. She found 6% of mothers, but other people have found something closer to 10 to 12% of mothers are, which I think it's more in that camp. And then another study by Carl Pillamer at Cornell, he found that 27% of adults over 18 are estranged from a family member, not necessarily a parent, but a sib or other family members. So it's pretty darn common.

[Noel King]

And what's driving that? What's making it more common?

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

Oh, it's a number of factors. I think that this moral shift that I was talking about, where relationships are purely predicated on the basis of whether or not the relationship is good for one's happiness and mental health and personal expression and identity. In the United States, we have rising rates of individualism that have occurred over the past half century. Increasing atomization, increasing tribalism, the incursion of therapeutic narratives in the way that we define ourselves. Instagram, I mean, social media, which we could spend an hour talking about divorce. So there's a lot of reasons why it's on the rise.

[Noel King]

And are all those factors, from social media to politics to increasing individualism, are they driving people to choose estrangement over maybe working through problems? And that's not a judgment. I'm just trying to understand it.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

Well, I think so, because I think that, you know, it's become considered sort of virtuous to cut off toxic people and to have boundaries. You know, I think in our society we have a very rich and developed language around boundaries and diagnoses of other people and the like, in a kind of impoverished language around interdependency and compassion and empathy and understanding the other person's perspective. So I think that has fueled this idea that cutting off people is considered a really assertive self care, act of self care. And in fact, it can be. I mean, there are genuinely hurtful, destructive family members. So I'm not here to say one should never do that, but I do think people in general are too quick to do it. And I also don't think that younger generations are as empathic as I wish they were about A, how hard it is to be a parent, the parenting is often a fog of war, or B, how the absolute immiseration they're causing when they cut a parent out of their lives.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

I'm on my way back from a failed attempt to get my daughter back in my life after three years. I just wanted to talk to her.

I have even been told that the therapists are suggesting the kids go non contact with their parents, but they're only.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

Hearing one side of the story.

[Noel King]

I have to be respectful of what.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

She'S asked, which is for me to leave her alone.

[Emmy Nietzsche]

But I just miss her so dang much.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

You know, parents in my practice are suicidal. They're miserable, particularly those who've been cut off from grandchildren. Many of these parents were loving, involved grandparents. And they're not being cut off because of their being bad grandparents. They're being cut off because of conflict between the parent and the adult child.

[Noel King]

We heard from Emmy earlier in the show that had it not been for texting and email, she probably would still have a relationship with her mother. It was the sort of over communication that she felt she had with her mother that made her relationship with her mother unsustainable. Do you see that a lot in your practice, in your research?

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

I really do, and I'm glad that Emmy raised that, because I do think that. Well, I think there's been several factors. One of the changes that we've had in the past four decades or so is parents have become much more anxious, much more involved. The studies by economists show that in countries with high social inequality, like the United States or China, parents do have to become much more involved, much more tiger mothers or helicopter parents, because it's the only way to guarantee or at least increase the probability that their child is going to have a safe landing into adulthood. In other countries with low social inequality, say, for example, Japan or the Scandinavian countries, parents can feel more secure that their, their children are, without enormous parental investment, still going to do okay in life. And so parents have been much more intensive and much more involved. So parents have become much more enmeshed. But then you add cell phones onto that, where parents can track their kids when they're young, they can know where they are, and then once the kids leave home, they can reach them at any time of day from any part of the world. And so many adult children. The phrase that I see in every single letter from every single estranged adult child is, you need to And I think that's because boundaries between parents and children have become much more diffuse.

[Noel King]

Is there another way or is this a necessary trend and movement?

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

I mean, I wish there was another way. I mean, my whole mission is to give parents the tools to learn how to communicate to their adult children in ways that help them to feel cared about and understood. And I do think most of the first person narratives and first person essays that you see in the media are written from the perspective of, well, I cut off my abusive parent and I'm better off and I'm happier. Very little, quite frankly, I think, is written about how absolutely immiserated the parents are. So thank you for having me on your show.

[Noel King]

Thank you for joining us.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

You know, you don't have to agree with everything that your family believes in order to capitalize or have what to remember what's good about them as people and parents. Politics is only one part of our identity and it's, you know, for some people it can be an important part, but we should kind of be big enough people just to look around those sorts of differences and remember what's good about the people that we grew up with or that raised us or that are our children. Because it is a cause of estranged these days. For example, I have a younger brother who's a self admitted conspiracy theorist. And so whenever I talk to him on the phone, he starts to go there. I go, we're not going there. And he just laughs and we, you know, because I love him and I don't want to, I just don't want the conversation to get trashed in the way that it used to. I'm never going to believe the videos he sends me from, you know, Andrew Tate or something. And he's not going to believe the research articles I'm going to send him. So, you know, we're just in different worlds, so why go there? I mean, if you like to fight, fine, fight. But you know, there's ways to respectfully disagree, but we've sort of lost the art of that, I think.

[Noel King]

Psychologist Dr. Joshua Coleman, he's got a private practice in the Bay Area and he's the author of When Parents Hurt, Compassionate Strategies when you and your grown Child Don't get along and Rules of why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the conflict. Victoria Chamberlain made our show today even though it's her worst nightmare. She was edited by Miranda Kennedy, Fact checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Rob Byers and Andrea Christensdottir. The rest of the best that Today Explained includes Matthew Collette, Halima Shah, Patrick Boyd, Abhishai Artsy Miles, Bryan Hadi Moogdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Peter Balanon Rosen, Aminah Al Saadi and of course my co host Noel King. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder Today Explain is distributed by wnyc. This show is a part of Vox. You can support our journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to vox.commembers to sign up. You can support our journalism by positively rating and reviewing us wherever you listen. You can not support us by negatively rating and reviewing us wherever you listen. But who would do that?

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere and you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever.

[Dr. Joshua Coleman]

To build a campaign?

[Emmy Nietzsche]

Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos and posting on social a breeze. So now it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get [e-mail] marketers. Support for the show comes from AT&T. What does it feel like to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with at and T? Next Up Anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouthwatering possibilities. Learn how to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT and T and the latest iPhone every year with AT and T. Next up anytime ATT connecting changes everything. Apple Intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set to US English. Some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next Up Anytime feature may be discontinued at any time, subject to change. Additional fees. Terms and restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details.