Can China save our climate?

Summary

Today, Explained: Can China Save Our Climate? – Detailed Summary

Episode Release Date: August 6, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King (Vox)
Guest: Oliver Millman, Environment Correspondent for The Guardian US

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Introduction: The U.S. Climate Landscape Under Trump

The episode opens with a discussion about President Donald Trump's controversial walk on the White House roof, which serves as a metaphor for his administration's stance on environmental policies. Sean Rameswaram humorously juxtaposes Trump's actions with his administration's broader environmental agenda, setting the stage for an in-depth analysis of the current state of U.S. climate policy.

Notable Quote:
Sean Rameswaram (00:45): "This president is doing everything in his power to put the United States in reverse on climate and we're going to talk about that instead of his big trip to the rooftop."

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Reversing Climate Policies: Trump's Administration

Oliver Millman provides a comprehensive overview of how Trump's administration has systematically dismantled previous climate initiatives established during the Obama and Biden eras. The discussion highlights several critical actions:

1. Withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement: Trump reaffirms his decision to exit the pact, further distancing the U.S. from global climate efforts.

2. Revoking the EPA’s Endangerment Finding: This pivotal move undermines the Environmental Protection Agency's authority to regulate greenhouse gases. Millman explains the significance of this finding, which was established in 2009, stating:

   Notable Quote:
   Oliver Millman (03:55): "Kicking out the legs of this finding... cripples the US's ability, the federal government's ability to regulate greenhouse gases, to take serious action on the climate crisis."

3. Energy Legislation and the "Big Beautiful Bill": Contrary to supporting clean energy, the bill under Trump's administration focuses on bolstering fossil fuel industries by slicing clean energy tax credits established by Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act.

   Notable Quote:
   Oliver Millman (07:15): "He's picking a winner. And it's fossil fuels. He calls it liquid gold."

4. Support for Fossil Fuels: Trump has aggressively promoted oil and gas extraction, including opening new drilling areas like the Arctic, and has facilitated exemptions for polluting power plants.

   Notable Quote:
   Oliver Millman (08:16): "He's pulling out all the stops for the oil and gas industry."

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Economic and Environmental Impacts of Policy Reversals

The episode delves into the broader implications of dismantling clean energy initiatives:

1. Job and Investment Decline: The rollback of subsidies threatens to halve the installed clean energy capacity in the U.S. over the next decade, jeopardizing thousands of jobs in the renewable sector.

2. Oil Industry Challenges: While Trump aims to expand drilling, the oil industry faces its own set of economic hurdles, such as declining prices due to increased supply and complications from tariffs on materials like steel.

3. Long-Term Regulatory Challenges: Reinstating the EPA’s Endangerment Finding would require a lengthy and contentious process, fraught with legal battles that could delay meaningful climate action.

   Notable Quote:
   Oliver Millman (05:46): "It would take a lot of time. There would be legal challenges, just like there'll be legal challenges to this Trump move."

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China's Ascendancy in Renewable Energy

Transitioning to the global stage, the conversation shifts to China's pivotal role in climate change mitigation:

1. Massive Investment in Renewables: China leads the world in the construction and installation of wind and solar projects, accounting for nearly half of the global capacity.

   Notable Quote:
   Ella Nilsen (17:51): "Nearly half of the world's wind and solar capacity combined is in China."

2. Economic Motivation: China's investment in clean energy is driven by a desire for energy security and economic growth. The manufacturing dominance in solar panels, wind turbines, and electric vehicles positions China as a global leader in green technology.

3. Exporting Clean Technology: China not only focuses on domestic clean energy projects but also actively exports affordable renewable technologies to developing nations, influencing global energy trends.

   Notable Quote:
   Ella Nilsen (19:17): "If the world has any hope of—essential to climate change, it has to come from China."

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Geopolitical and Ethical Considerations

The episode does not shy away from the complexities surrounding China's clean energy leadership:

1. Human Rights Concerns: The production of clean energy technology in China is marred by reports of forced labor, particularly involving Uyghurs in manufacturing sectors.

   Notable Quote:
   Ella Nilsen (24:32): "They have been reported on the role of Uyghurs in labor camps and solar manufacturing."

2. Global Leadership Dynamics: While China advances in renewables, its authoritarian governance model raises questions about the ethical implications of its global clean energy dominance.

3. Impact on Developing Nations: China's ability to provide affordable clean energy solutions to developing countries presents both opportunities and challenges, particularly in balancing economic growth with environmental sustainability.

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The Future of Global Climate Efforts

In concluding sections, the hosts and guest explore the potential trajectories for global climate initiatives:

1. U.S. Competitiveness: With the U.S. significantly lagging behind China in clean energy, there is skepticism about the nation's ability to catch up, especially under current political climates.

   Notable Quote:
   Ella Nilsen (23:45): "I think the answer is we can't. At least not in these kinds of technologies."

2. Role of International Bodies: The European Union continues to push for emissions reductions despite challenges like the Ukraine war, positioning itself as a key player in sustaining global climate efforts.

3. Developing World Influence: The choices made by developing nations in their energy strategies will critically influence the global climate trajectory. China's role in providing clean energy infrastructure could be a decisive factor.

4. Ethical Leadership: The episode underscores the need for a balance between technological advancement and ethical governance to ensure that global climate progress does not come at the expense of human rights.

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Conclusion: Assessing the Possibility of a Green Future Led by China

The episode wraps up by weighing the implications of China's leadership in renewable energy against the backdrop of the U.S.'s retreat from climate action. While China's advancements present a beacon of hope for global climate mitigation, ethical and geopolitical challenges temper the optimism. The overarching message emphasizes the urgency of unified and ethical global efforts to combat climate change effectively.

Notable Quote:
Ella Nilsen (25:13): "But the bigger picture is what do countries that haven't yet peaked their economic development do? Do they do that on wind and solar energy and clean energy, or do they do that using coal and gas and oil?"

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Key Takeaways:

• U.S. Policy Reversal: The Trump administration's rollback of climate policies poses significant setbacks to national and global climate efforts.

• China's Dominance: China emerges as a leading force in renewable energy, driven by economic and energy security motives, though not without ethical issues.

• Global Implications: The future of climate change mitigation heavily relies on the actions of major emitters like China and the policies of influential regions such as the European Union.

• Ethical Considerations: Balancing technological progress in clean energy with human rights and ethical governance remains a crucial challenge.

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This episode of Today, Explained offers a nuanced exploration of the complex interplay between national policies and global leadership in tackling climate change, highlighting the pivotal role China may play in shaping a sustainable future amidst significant geopolitical and ethical considerations.

Transcript

[Sean Ramisvirm]

The President of the United States went for a walk on the roof of the White House yesterday. You probably heard about it. Sir, why are you on the roof? It was all over everything, social media.

[Ella Nilsen]

POTUS is on the roof of the White House. Asked why he's up there, he shouts back to us through his hands, quote, just taking a little walk.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

The New York Times up on the.

[Oliver Millman]

Roof, Trump surveys the home. He's making his own.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Why was the president taking a walk on the roof of the White House, though? Maybe to distract us from something. He certainly wasn't up there. To reinstall Jimmy Carter's solar panels this.

[Oliver Millman]

Afternoon, I've arranged for this ceremony to.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Be illuminated by solar power because this president hates green energy.

[Donald Trump]

Wind is a disaster.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

This president is doing everything in his power to put the United States in reverse on climate and we're going to talk about that instead of his big trip to the rooftop on Today Explained from Vox.

[Ella Nilsen]

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[Ella Nilsen]

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[Oliver Millman]

Yeah, you're right to say that people weren't expecting some sort of climate champion to come into the White House following Joe Biden. Trump, after all, did campaign on the.

[Donald Trump]

Mantra of drill baby, drill.

[Oliver Millman]

He talked incessantly about the need to extract more oil and gas to supposedly reduce energy prices for Americans concerned about inflation. He talked about doing away with what he called the green scam. It's a scam, this set of climate policies put in place by Biden to try and boost clean energy and cut pollution from power plants and cars. He was going to roll back all of that. So it was kind of little surprise when he did come in and set about doing that. He withdrew the US from the Parrot Paris Climate Agreement again, which he did his first term. He opened up new areas for drilling, including the Arctic.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Sir, this is an executive order relating to unleashing Alaska's potential as an energy reservoir for the entire nation.

[Oliver Millman]

I think it's fair to say we're seeing a far more extreme iteration of Trump on climate this time around compared to his first time.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

And maybe the greatest example of this is revoking the EPA's endangerment finding, which just happened several days ago. Can you tell us what exactly that means for climate policy in the United States? Yeah.

[Oliver Millman]

So essentially, this is a kind of landmark 2009 finding by the EPA that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and five others, that they pose a threat to the public health and therefore need to be regulated. There needs to be some kind of limit put upon them by the federal government to protect the American public from harm. And that stemmed from a 2007 Supreme Court case where the Supreme Court ruled that, yes, indeed, the act requires EPA to regulate whenever it forms a judgment that an air pollutant causes or contributes to air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare. So essentially, that finding forms the basis. It's the kind of bedrock on which all climate regulations rest. So limits on pollution from power plants, from cars, from trucks, all kind of stem from this, from this finding, essentially. And kicking out the legs of this finding, which has long been a kind of goal, a kind of holy grail of climate deniers and skeptics and those who favour the fossil fuel industry. Doing so essentially cripples the US's ability, the federal government's ability to regulate greenhouse gases, to take serious action on the climate crisis, not just during Trump's administration, but future administrations are going to find it a harder to do so to act on climate change if this endangerment finding is scrapped, as Trump plans to do.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

But can future administrations just reverse it? Like we kind of see going from Obama to Trump and Trump to Biden and Biden to Trump.

[Oliver Millman]

So, you know, you could go through that process again to try and re establish this endangerment, but it would take a lot of time. There would be legal challenges, just like there'll be legal challenges to this Trump move. All of this is going to take years to unravel. It's years of time that we obviously don't have really just wastes time and helps prolong the age of fossil fuels, which seems to be a driving focus and a driving motivation for this administration.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Okay, so another example of where you see this sort of topsy turvy relationship with climate policy between administration, Democratic and Republican is in spending. Joe Biden was trying to do a lot of spending towards clean energy, et cetera. What is Trump doing in contrast with, say, his big spending bill, the so called one big beautiful bill?

[Oliver Millman]

Yeah, so I think one of the big differences to his first term is how Trump has kind of enacted his animosity towards clean energy in quite a kind of vengeful way.

[Donald Trump]

When we go to Aberdeen, you'll see some of the ugliest windmills you've ever seen. They're the height of a 50 story building and you can take a thousand times more energy out of a hole in the ground this big. And we don't want solar because they're a blight on our country.

[Oliver Millman]

And he, his animosity seems to be a driving force behind the provisions of the big beautiful spending bill in which Republicans gutted the clean energy tax credits that Biden had put in place through the inflation Reduction act that was spurring this boom in new solar and wind projects, in new battery factories, in new electric car facilities that were being set up across the US but predominantly in kind of rural and ex urban areas of the country that were overwhelmingly represented by Republican members of Congress. So Republicans were essentially voting to get rid of billions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands of jobs in their own districts and eliminating these subsidies. And the impact is set to be quite stark. By one estimate, the amount of installed clean energies is set to be halved over the next 10 years.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

How true has he been to his promises to drill, baby drill. How good has this admin so far been to big oil?

[Oliver Millman]

I think he's been a very strong ally to big oil. I mean, he's essentially allowed them to drill pretty much anywhere they want other than the Rose Garden of the White House. I mean, it's kind of pretty much open season.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

There's still three years left. I don't know.

[Oliver Millman]

We'll see.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

It could happen next to the ballroom.

[Oliver Millman]

Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah, a nice oil well next to the ballroom. Who could quibble with that? But even in this big beautiful bill, which purportedly was cutting subsidies for clean energy in order to make things fairer and reduce government interference in the energy market, at the same time as doing that, he was offering New subsidies for fossil fuels. It's clear that this idea the Republicans previously had, that all energy should be equal, we don't want to pick winners. That's out the window now. Trump is very clearly picking a winner. And it's fossil fuels. He calls it liquid gold.

[Donald Trump]

We will be a rich nation again. And it is that liquid gold under our feet that will help to do it.

[Oliver Millman]

He wants as much of it to be extracted as possible, and he's removing kind of any barrier in order to do that. He even set up a special email hotline, if such a thing exists, so that power plant operators could email him to ask for an exemption from pollution rules in emergency exemptions so that they basically didn't have to follow the law and they can emit as much as they like. And many have taken him up on that. So he's pulling out all the stops for the oil and gas industry. The only complication, of course, is that oil executives, it may shock you to know, like, making money, they're quite keen on money. And if there's a glut of oil and gas in the US Prices start to drop. And so they don't really want to drill, baby drill as much as Trump would maybe like them to. They're a little bit perturbed by his tariffs, too. If you want to build a new oil pipeline, for example, you do not like the idea of a tariff on steel, for example, that would make the project far more costly. So there are differences that the industry has with Trump, and those are not insignificant. But overall, I think he's been as strong a friend to them as they could possibly hope.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Amazing. So Trump wants to drill perhaps even more than oil executives do. And of course, as you said at the top of this conversation, Trump has withdrawn not just in the United States from, you know, climate friendly policies, but globally. He once again has pulled out of the Paris Climate Accords. Who's filling in for us while the US Is figuring itself out?

[Oliver Millman]

You have. The European Union is pressing ahead with emissions cuts. The complication there, of course, being the Ukraine, Ukraine, war and what happens to gas supply. But I think there's a kind of strong push within Europe that this should accelerate the transition to clean energy, not be so reliant on fossil fuels that are operated and influenced by foreign dictators. And in the clean energy space, China is just miles ahead now. I mean, it's absolutely. If this was an Olympic event, they would have lapped the rest of the world maybe twice. So obviously, China is the world's largest emitter. Still, they're still building a lot of coal. I'm not saying that it's a kind of clean energy paradise in any way. Obviously it helps having a one party communist state to dictate direction of policy and all of those caveats. But certainly when you, if you're thinking about what they're, what who's leading when it comes to clean energy, it's quite clearly them.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Oliver, I enjoyed speaking with you. Did the things you say depress me? Yes. Do I appreciate you sharing them with me? All the same, yes. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Oliver Millman]

Thank you. I enjoyed depressing you. Thank you so much.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Once again. That was Oliver Millman. You know him from the guardian.com I'm Sean Ramisvirm and we're gonna hear more about how the world's biggest polluter is leading the way on green energy when Today Explained continues. Support for the program today comes from Shopify. When you're creating your own business, you have to juggle a lot of roles. Marketing, sales, outreach, design. Shopify can simplify all of that. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and according to the company, 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started like maybe I don't know yours. They say they have hundreds of ready to use templates to help design your brand style. And they say they can make marketing easier by creating email and social media campaigns so you can connect with customers wherever they be scrolling. Shopify also has AI tools created for commerce they say can help you create product descriptions, generate discount codes and more. You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [e-mail] explained. You can go to shopify.com explained. That's shopify.com explained. Does anyone have a cash register handy? Support for the show comes from Bombas and today they want to talk to you about socks because it's summer and maybe it's a time when you realize that your socks are just not up to the challenges of warm weather. If I'm being real, I don't, I don't wear socks in the summer, but you know, follow your bliss. They're talking about like running marathons and I don't do that either. So maybe you need socks and Bombas has some and Anisha Chital, our colleague here at Vox has tried the socks from Bombas.

[Ella Nilsen]

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[Ella Nilsen]

My name is Ella Nilsen and I'm a senior climate reporter for cnn.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

And Ella, we ended the first half of the show with the surprising news that with the United States stepping back from the fight against climate change from clean energy, China might be filling the void. China, famously a major polluter, but China leading the charge on climate?

[Ella Nilsen]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a bit of a strange dichotomy here. You're totally right. I mean, we all have these ideas of, you know, polluted air in cities like Beijing. China obviously has a lot of coal and uses a lot of coal to make electricity, hence the, the haze and the smog. But China is also just going totally bananas on wind and solar.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

China is leading the global surge of renewables with an estimated 60% of all.

[Oliver Millman]

Solar and wind projects.

[Ella Nilsen]

Dubbed the Solar Great Wall. Construction is underway on this massive energy project in the barren Kabuki Desert of Inner Mongolia. This is Tihu Hanyu, China's total installed capacity for new energy generation, including wind, solar and Biomass power topped 1.27 billion kilowatts by the end of August, according to data from the China Electricity Console. Nearly half of the world's wind and solar capacity combined is in China. You know, they're basically building faster and building more than anywhere else on the globe.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Very impressive. Why are they doing this?

[Ella Nilsen]

So essentially, you know, about a decade ago, China passed its own inflation reduction act.

[Oliver Millman]

Come on, man.

[Ella Nilsen]

The climate law that former President Joe Biden passed in 2022. And ever since then, there have been a host of government tax credits and subsidies for wind and solar developers. But China, really, there's sort of this. This ethos behind this. This big push to renewable energy, and that is energy security. You know, China, they talk a lot about the need to solve climate change, and they are the world's biggest emitter of. Of greenhouse gases by far. So.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

So biggest polluter, but also might be biggest chance of us making progress on this front.

[Ella Nilsen]

Exactly. I mean, at this point, climate experts say that, like, if the world has any hope of, you know, essential climate change, it has to come from China, because they are the world's biggest polluter. They also sort of hold the key to being the biggest country to. To reverse this trend. At this point, clean energy has become a huge business in China. I mean, essentially, it's a big integral part of the Chinese economy, not only building, you know, vast solar farms or wind farms off the coast of China, that's part of it. But there's also a huge manufacturing push for clean tech. So Chinese companies are making the solar panels. They are building wind turbines. There is a huge growth in electric vehicle manufacturing in China, where China, you know, is essentially starting to dominate the world supply of electric vehicles, and electric vehicles domestically in China are becoming a huge, booming business, and many more people are driving them as well. So not only does, you know, China see, like, the supply of cheap electricity as a big economic driver, it's also the building and manufacturing of these products that they see as an economic boon. They're also starting to ship a lot of these products around the world, which is a bit of a thorny economic issue and a thorny trade issue with countries like, you know, the European Union or other countries in the developing global South. They're kind of flooding the zone with cheap solar panels, cheaper electric cars, and things like that.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Okay, so China partly loves solar because it's so cheap. Why doesn't Donald Trump like solar? Doesn't he love cheap things?

[Ella Nilsen]

So Trump, I guess Trump maybe like solar a little bit more than he likes wind. I think he likes wind least of all.

[Donald Trump]

I've seen the most beautiful fields, farms fields, most gorgeous things you've ever seen. And then you have these ugly things going up. Their noises, they kill the birds. You want to see a bird graveyard? You just go take a look. A bird graveyard. You know, in California, they were killing the bald eagle. A windmill will kill many bald eagles. Go under a windmill someday. You'll see more birds than you've ever seen ever in your life. The Massachusetts area with the whales, where they had two whales wash ashore, the windmills are driving the whales crazy.

[Ella Nilsen]

But, yeah, you know, Trump and the Trump administration have basically put solar and wind at the very bottom of their energy priority list. I don't know if you've seen the tweets of the Department of Energy lately, Sean, but we're back to. We're back to loving coal. She's an icon, she's a legend, and she's the moment. And, you know, the Trump administration at this point really is promoting a lot of fossil energy, but that energy is more expensive to. To produce, to use, to burn electricity. Right now, wind and solar in the US Are the cheapest and most available forms of electricity to get on the grid right now. However, I think those arguments have kind of fallen on deaf ears within the Trump administration, where there really does seem to be, you know, kind of a vendetta against wind and solar.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Hmm. You wrote way back in November, before Trump even took office for the second time, that China was winning the race as a climate tech leader. Even after Joe Biden's efforts, I'm guessing. When did the United States fall behind China as a leader in this space? And can it ever catch up?

[Ella Nilsen]

I think that the US Started to fall behind China like a decade ago, if not more than that. I mean, you know, essentially China passed its own version of the Inflation Reduction act, essentially a decade ago. They had sort of a ten year head start. They got kind of kicked off in 2015, which is still the Obama administration, and especially with the first Trump administration and now the second Trump administration very bent on unwinding everything that Biden was trying to do.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, come on, man.

[Ella Nilsen]

The US Is falling further and further behind on clean energy. Whether we can ever catch up. I think that the answer is we can't. At least not in these kinds of technologies.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

China's famously not the freest country on Earth. This is why China can ramp up its clean energy so quickly. But it's also, as you say here, the world leader in clean energy, in advancing clean energy initiatives. Is the world ready for China to take the lead on this front? Is there tension there between, I don't know, authoritarianism and green energy?

[Ella Nilsen]

I think there definitely is. And, you know, there has been a lot reported on, you know, the role of Uyghurs and labor camps and solar manufacturing.

[Oliver Millman]

Britain has gone full net, zero, net, zany. They've got solar panels everywhere, all their farmland, solar panels.

[Ella Nilsen]

And you know where those solar panels come from? Often from slave labour camps run in.

[Oliver Millman]

China where the poor Uyghurs are forced.

[Ella Nilsen]

To work in slave labour conditions.

[Donald Trump]

When ethnic minorities, including the Uyghurs, are.

[Oliver Millman]

Approached and encouraged to participate in such poverty alleviation programs, they're not really left.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

With much room to say no when.

[Ella Nilsen]

It comes to China's position compared to the rest of the world on clean energy. I mean, they are so far out front and China is really like leading the race with developing world nations to export its car manufacturing to countries like Brazil or to get solar panels to developing nations in Africa. And so it's going to be really interesting to see sort of the geopolitical picture around clean energy because, you know, US Climate experts often talk about how the developing world and developing nations are really going to sort of right our future climate trajectory because the U.S. you know, historically emitted the most greenhouse gases out of any nation during our big industrial age. But our emissions recently have gone down and how much they continue to go down and is sort of open for debate and is very much being influenced by what the Trump administration is doing now. But the bigger picture is what do countries that haven't yet peaked their economic development do? Do they do that on wind and solar energy and clean energy, or do they do that using coal and gas and oil? And if they choose the latter, then, you know, our climate fate is pretty much sealed. However, if China, you know, makes it cheaper for countries in the developing world to power using wind and solar and batteries and other cleaner forms of technology, there's a lot of really thorny geopolitical issues that I don't think we can sort out in this podcast episode. But it will be better, at least for climate emissions long term.

[Sean Ramisvirm]

Ella Nilsen, we used to be colleagues. Now she's at cnn. Current colleagues Devin Schwartz and Gabrielle Burbay made the show with help from Aminah Al Saadi, Laura Bullard, Andrea Christensdottir and Patrick Boyd. Goodbye for now from today explained.