Capitalism (Taylor’s Version)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – "Capitalism (Taylor’s Version)"

Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Noel King, Ann Powers
Guests: Elias Light (Wall Street Journal music reporter), Sabrina Carpenter (Pop Artist), Taylor Swift (clips/interviews)
Theme: Dissecting Taylor Swift’s record-breaking album release strategy, industry “variants,” and the cultural-economic backlash to Swift’s latest era.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained dives into Taylor Swift’s blockbuster new album, analyzing her innovative (and controversial) business tactics to break music sales records. Through conversations with music journalists and fans, the hosts explore how Swift’s relentless commercial strategy, especially with “album variants,” has drawn both admiration and critique, making her a symbol of the uneasy intersection between pop stardom, capitalism, and public sentiment in 2025.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Polarizing New Taylor Swift Album

• Mixed Reception:
  Swift’s album receives backlash for being “sloppy,” “immature,” and “not as advertised.”
  • [00:06] Noel King: “Swift's new record got everybody mad… Some listeners were disappointed it didn't sound as advertised.”
  • [00:16] Sabrina Carpenter: “This is a sad day to be a Swiftie and that's just my truth.”
• Lyrics Critique:
  • [02:30] Elias Light: “I found some of the lyrics to sort of be cringy to a level where they pulled me completely out of the experience of listening.”

2. Breaking Music Industry Records

• Record Setting Debut:
  • [02:51] Elias Light: “She cleared the 4 million threshold, which honestly, most of the industry thought could not be done. And the previous record was around 3.5 million, set by Adele.”
• Streaming vs. Physical Sales Evolution:
  • [03:27] Elias Light discusses how streaming shaped prior sales records (Adele withheld her album from streaming, favoring massive pure sales).

3. The ‘Variants’ Phenomenon: Collectibles As a Sales Tactic

• Multiple Editions, Merchandise, & Collectibles:
  • [04:04] Elias Light: “A new technique… release a lot of different variations of the album… allows you to kind of boost your first week sales numbers.”
  • [04:59] Elias Light: “There were 27 different physical editions… some of the vinyl came with jewelry items… some CDs with bonus tracks.”
• Consumer Behavior:
  • [05:17] Sabrina Carpenter: “I don't even own a CD player, but I have a CD now.”
  • [07:22] Ann Powers: “So I bought every single vinyl and CD variant for Taylor Swift's the Life of a Showgirl, so you don't have to. It's so pretty.”

4. Competitive Industry & Chart Gaming

• Why Variants Work:

  • [06:31] Elias Light: “Artists… are fiercely competitive… they want to say they got a top 10, a top five, ideally a number one.”
  • Physical/digital variants target collectors and drive up opening sales figures.
  • “Most artists… want to win, so they want to push every lever that is available for them to get a big first week.” ([07:31])

• Others Do It Too:

  • [08:08] Elias Light: “The 10 biggest albums last year… came in 22 different versions on average.”
  • A tight #1 chart race involving Sabrina Carpenter and Travis Scott led to flurries of last-minute variants:
    [08:31] “Travis put out, I think, six different digital variants on the final day… Sabrina put out three.”

5. Ethics, Exploitation & The Backlash

• Fan and Environmental Concerns:

  • [09:50] Elias Light: “Fans are arguing that this is kind of exploitative… there’s also a growing body of fans concerned about the environment.”
  • [10:30] Sabrina Carpenter: “Having all 20 versions of the same album with the exact same music on it is wasteful and it's very capitalist.”
  • [10:43] Sabrina Carpenter Jokes: “At this point, you could just tile a bathroom with how many different versions of one album she's put out.”

• Did She Need To Do It?

  • [10:49] Elias Light: “I bet she probably could have broken the record without putting out 38 different versions… if 4 million is your goal, it might have been the 38th variant that got you there.”

• Industry Cycles:

  • [11:33] Elias Light suggests chart rules will continue to change as gaming methods evolve:
    “Artists and labels are always going to try to figure out whatever strategy they can use to maximize that first week.”

6. Criticism of Swift’s Persona & Creative Direction

• An Intense Backlash:
  • [15:14] Ann Powers: “I found it really interesting to observe the backlash against Taylor Swift.”
  • [16:01] Ann Powers: “Worst, tackiest, most out of touch, most childish…” (on lyrical content and album response)
• Swift as Cultural Avatar:
  • [16:14] Ann Powers: “Taylor Swift has become the avatar for so many of our anxieties, so many of our dissatisfactions.”
• “Boring Barbie” & Targeted Lyrics Controversy:
  • [18:16] Taylor Swift (clip): “I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Cokes got you Brave,”
    Allegedly a jibe at Charli XCX, triggering online furor ([18:22] Ann Powers).

7. Wealth, Status, and Relatability

• Changing Fan Relationship:

  • [19:03] Ann Powers: “More and more online chatter about Taylor Swift's wealth, her social status, and her choice to continue to write songs in which she is the… underdog, even though she is so on top of the world.”

• Swift’s Response:

  • [19:50] Sabrina Carpenter (quoting Swift): “It's like everybody is allowed to feel exactly how they want. And what our goal is as entertainers is to be a mirror.”
  • [20:11] Ann Powers: “To others that almost felt like, I don't care about your opinion.”

• Hurt Fans:

  • Even die-hard Swifties publicly expressing doubts and disillusionment ([20:17] Ann Powers).

8. The Artist’s Evolution (or Not) Debate

• Victim or Villain?
  • [21:08] Ann Powers: “I don't think she's playing the victim so much on Life of a Showgirl. I think she's playing the villain.”
  • [21:35] Ann Powers points to the song “Cancelled” as particularly controversial, using right-wing-coded language (“cancelled”) that signals a risky shift.
• Relatability vs. Stardom:
  • Compared to Beyoncé’s shift to representing broader family/community narratives, Swift is seen as doubling down on autobiography ([23:32] Ann Powers).

9. Is Taylor Swift Stagnating as an Artist?

• Growth Debate:
  • [24:10] Noel King: “Taylor Swift, and this is an argument I heard a lot about this album. She is not growing as an artist.”
  • [24:30] Ann Powers: “I find it strange that being a pop star and producing albums is… a life journey of self improvement… have we asked that of Mick Jagger?”
    She’s fine with artists repeatedly drawing on personal, even adolescent themes.
• Ann’s Theory:
  • [25:02] Ann Powers: “I don't think Taylor Swift made this record to make more money… I think she made this record because she is now in a happier place. She needed another marker on the highway that said, hey, I'm happy now. I'm in control.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elias Light on sales strategy:
  “If they're buying it, why not keep giving it to them, boy.” ([04:59])
• Ann Powers on Swift’s current backlash:
  “Taylor Swift has become the avatar for so many of our anxieties, so many of our dissatisfactions.” ([16:14])
• Sabrina Carpenter on wastefulness:
  “Having all 20 versions of the same album with the exact same music on it is wasteful and it's very capitalist.” ([10:30])
• Ann Powers on Swift’s intent:
  “She needed a marker on the highway that said, hey, I'm happy now. I'm in control.” ([25:02])
• Noel King summarizing the fan vibe:
  “There is something to that I don't care about your feelings vibe… this is not a two way street, guys.” ([20:40])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:06 — Introduction to backlash over the new album
• 02:51 — Swift's record-breaking sales detailed
• 04:04 — The album “variants” strategy explained
• 06:31 — How and why the sales strategies matter to artists
• 08:31 — Variant “arms race” with Sabrina Carpenter and Travis Scott
• 09:50 — Criticism about capitalism and waste emerges
• 15:14 — Ann Powers on the backlash and Swift’s cultural role
• 18:16 — The “boring Barbie” lyric controversy
• 19:03 — Wealth, underdog narrative, and public sentiment
• 21:08 — Swift as “villain,” not victim
• 23:32 — Comparison: Beyonce’s evolution vs. Swift’s autobiography
• 25:02 — Ann’s theory on why Swift released the album

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Conclusion

In this incisive episode, Today, Explained unpacks how Taylor Swift’s business innovations—especially her embrace of collectible variants—reveal the modern music industry’s capitalist machinery and set new standards for other pop stars. Yet, these same tactics, along with a perceived creative stagnation and changing public attitudes about wealth, have made Swift a lightning rod for criticism and anxiety about pop culture, money, and meaning in 2025. Through debate and analysis, the podcast highlights how Swift’s every move is both a mirror and a battleground for larger societal tensions.

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Transcript

[Taylor Swift]

I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Cokes got you brave Taylor.

[Noel King]

Swift's new record got everybody mad. It's sloppy, they said it's immature it's mid Some listeners were disappointed it didn't sound as advertised.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

This is a sad day to be a Swiftie and that's just my truth.

[Noel King]

She'S too happy, she's too cruel she's breaking trad Taylor, what do you have to say?

[Taylor Swift]

But it's actually swift sweet. All the time you've spent on me it's honestly wild all the effort Coming.

[Noel King]

Up on Today Explained.

[Taylor Swift]

No man has ever loved me like you do.

[Anthropic (Sponsor Voice)]

Support for the show today comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Today's news moves fast, but the most important stories deserve deeper thinking. Whether you're trying to understand the implications of a policy change or connecting dots across breaking stories, Claude, your new AI collaborator, can help you go beyond the headlines. Claude doesn't just summarize the news. It helps you explore the context, analyze the patterns, and think through what it all means together. Try Claude for free@ Claude AI Todayexplained.

[Apple (Sponsor Voice)]

Every story you love, every invention that moves you, Every idea you wished was yours. All began as nothing, Just a blank page with a blinking cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas Start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

My.

[Ann Powers]

Name is Taylor Swift.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

I have a single coming out in 10 days. It's called Today Explained. Yes, it's called Today Explained. No, it's not about Today Explained.

[Elias Light]

My full name is Elias Light and I report on music for the Wall Street Journal.

[Noel King]

Are you a Taylor Swift fan?

[Elias Light]

I am. A little more of the early stuff, a little less of the more recent stuff.

[Noel King]

What did you think of the new record?

[Elias Light]

It was not my favorite, but again, as a reporter, I try to keep that out of what we write, you know?

[Noel King]

You don't want to tell me what your beef with it was.

[Elias Light]

I mean, I'm more of a melody and rhythm guy than a lyric guy, but I found some of the lyrics to sort of be cringy to a level where they pulled me completely out of the experience of listening.

[Taylor Swift]

Every joke's just trolling and memes. Sad as it seems, apathy is hard.

[Noel King]

She set a record, as I understand it, for biggest debut week. How big was it?

[Elias Light]

So she cleared the 4 million threshold, which honestly, most of the industry thought could not be done. And the previous record was around 3.5 million, set by Adele. Hello.

[Ann Powers]

It'S me.

[Elias Light]

That was a Decade ago. And at that time, sort of streaming was just taking off and a lot of artists were very wary of it.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

We need to fight like the Spotify. I really believe that we in the music industry can work together to find a way to bond technology with integrity.

[Elias Light]

And when Adele dropped that album, she kept it off streaming, not just for the first week, but for something like seven months. And the only song that was available to stream was hello, that massive first single. And she just. The sales numbers were through the roof for that. More recently now, artists are very comfortable, most of them, with streaming, especially the stars. They want to have their album in every possible place that a fan might want to listen to it.

[Ann Powers]

I pre saved my album on Spotify. Did you?

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Hey, it's Sabrina. You can pre save my new album Short n Sweet on Spotify now.

[Elias Light]

But sort of a new technique has become popular for the first week, which is release a lot of different variations of the album. And that both gives your biggest fans a lot of different ways to support you and also allows you to kind of boost your first week sales numbers.

[Noel King]

Okay, so Taylor has released a bunch of albums since Adele released 25. This was the first one that beat the record. And what you're saying is it beat the record because there were so many different variants you could buy?

[Elias Light]

That's a great question. I mean, we don't have a counterfactual, but it certainly helped. I mean, she just did a absolutely massive amount of physical sales.

[Sponsor Voice (Possibly NPR or Promo)]

Breaking news, Taylor Swift is back and she's breaking records. And now when I say records, 1.2 million copies of vinyl alone in the first 24 hours.

[Elias Light]

I think it's genius. If they're buying it, why not keep giving it to them, boy. So I think there were 27 different physical editions. There were a couple of those CDs came in kind of box sets which had clothing.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

My Life of a showgirl cardigan just came in.

[Ann Powers]

Cardigan arrived.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

In pretty boxed. I mean, I don't even own a CD player, but I have a CD now.

[Elias Light]

Some of the vinyl came with different, like, jewelry items. There was like a bracelet. People liked a necklace.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

That is why I bought 1, 2, and 3. I got the hairbrush and the barrette. So let's open it up.

[Elias Light]

Some of the CDs came with bonus acoustic tracks. There were also the digital download versions that came with bonus acoustic tracks.

[Taylor Swift]

Oh, now the light of a show girl babe and you're never ever gonna.

[Elias Light]

Some of them had voice memos from Taylor about songs that she'd done instead.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Of the acoustic Opalite is a song on my album that I think is just so infectiously, contagiously happy.

[Elias Light]

So there was a really wide range of options for the Super Taylor fan.

[Noel King]

I'm not going to say it's cheating because all's fair in love and capitalism, but album variants are very clearly a strategy to boost sales numbers. Why?

[Elias Light]

Yeah, I mean, so I think one thing people sometimes don't understand, I mean, artists never want to admit it, but a lot of artists and also their labels are fiercely competitive and they really care a lot about sort of the commercial reception of their work. They want to say they got a top 10, a top five, ideally a number one. The problem with streaming, right, is for the listener, it's like this amazing offering where you're paying $11 a month for almost all the music in history, Right. But for artists, a lot of their biggest fans actually will spend more money on their behalf. They want to support them. And certainly there's other ways you can kind of tap into that, buy merchandise by selling concert tickets. But one way they've increasingly tried to do it is by releasing a lot of kind of variations of this album and making them more like collectibles. A lot of people who buy the vinyl don't even listen to it. They just put it up on the wall.

[Ann Powers]

So I bought every single vinyl and CD variant for Taylor Swift's the Life of a Showgirl, so you don't have to. It's so pretty.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Side A. Oh, my God, look at the rippling.

[Elias Light]

And then at the same time, again, if you can get one fan to buy three, five, seven copies, that is just gonna boost your numbers. And most artists, again, especially at this level, they're competing with their peers and they want to win, so they want to kind of push every lever that is available for them to get a big first week.

[Noel King]

Taylor Swift does go the extra mile. It's what people like or at least recognize about her. This thing about I'm going to do 38 variants to boost my sales. She's not the only person doing it, I imagine. Who else?

[Elias Light]

No.

[Charles Schwab (Sponsor Voice)]

Yeah.

[Elias Light]

I mean, again, this has become a super popular tactic. So the 10 biggest. The biggest albums last year, ranked by physical sales, came in 22 different versions on average. Where you've really seen it come into play is when artists are in kind of tight races for number one. And last year there was a race that turned a lot of heads.

[Taylor Swift]

Oh, I leave quite an impression after.

[Elias Light]

Three number one albums would have thought, I feel amazing. It was Sabrina Carpenter versus Travis Scott. And it was very close. And as it got near the end of the week, they were both. I mean, Travis put out, I think, six different digital variants on the final day of the week, and Sabrina put out three of her own.

[Sponsor Voice (Possibly NPR or Promo)]

This is a chess move. Sabrina's pretty much like, I want y' all to stream the hell out of this album and this song, boost my numbers up for the day so I can eclipse Travis Scott.

[Elias Light]

Honestly, she didn't come to play. She took courses from Ms. Taylor Swift.

[Ann Powers]

On how to secure that number one album. I'm sorry.

[Elias Light]

And it's just the digital variants are sort of the easiest one to put together. It's like, oh, look, here's my album, plus a voice note or acoustic song. Or sometimes people honestly don't even add music. They just put out different artwork. So you can just throw them out very quickly and say, hey, fans, this is only available for, you know, six hours. Go get it again. In that case, because the race was so close, Sabrina Carpenter ended up winning by only about 1000 units.

[Noel King]

This is a really interesting way to kind of game the music business, which, of course, is a business, as these artists know. Is there anyone lobbing critiques at this strategy?

[Elias Light]

Yeah, I mean, definitely. As the strategy has become more popular, the backlash has sort of become a lot louder. And you see a lot of fans who are arguing that this is kind of exploitative. You're basically kind of milking your most passionate supporters for as much money as you can take from them. You know, there's also a growing body of fans who are concerned about the environment, and they're worried that all these CDs and records, if they're not made in a sustainable way, are pretty wasteful. Again, because Taylor Swift's so big and because the album did have a pretty polarizing reaction, there's been a lot of chatter online about sort of whether she needed to do this and whether she's kind of gone too far.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Having all 20 versions of the same album with the exact same music on it is wasteful and it's very capitalist.

[Elias Light]

And you shouldn't have this rush to, like, buy one cover and then two days later there might be another one that's out.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Like, at this point, you could just tile a bathroom with how many different versions of one album she's put out.

[Elias Light]

Side note, I think it is that thing where I bet she probably could have broken the record without putting out 38 different versions, but if she wanted to get to 4 million, she only cleared that mark by 2,000 units, which is a pretty small amount, Right? So, yeah, she squeaked in, she squeaked by. So if you, if 4 million is your goal, it might have been the 38th variant that got you there. They have the data, we don't. But again, whether or not artists should sort of care about fairly arbitrary commercial goals is a valid question. But it seemed pretty clear that 4 million was the target.

[Noel King]

Do you think the new normal is 12 variants, 20 variants, 38 variants?

[Elias Light]

I think for now it definitely is. What we see happen, and we've seen it happen again and again is sort of artists. Again, they care intensely about getting the biggest numbers possible. They'll come up with a strategy to do so, and then the chart rules will change and they will have to adjust. Right. So a while ago there was a popular period in the music industry where you could bundle album sales with tickets. So you would find artists who had a really great live business selling just an album accompanying a tour ticket, and they would do huge numbers, which they could never achieve. If they weren't able to kind of link those two together, then the bundling was kind of mostly banned and sort of the new era came in. And now people are more into this variant strategy. At a certain point, if the chart rules change again, there will be a new. A new system they come up with. I think the one thing you can guarantee is that artists and labels are always going to try to figure out whatever strategy they can use to maximize that first week.

[Noel King]

Elias Light, WSJMux coming up, everyone's a critic.

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[Apple (Sponsor Voice)]

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[Charles Schwab (Sponsor Voice)]

Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab at Schwab. How you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Ann Powers]

Today Explained I'm Ann Powers. I'm a critic and correspondent for NPR Music. I have been called a Taylor Swift whisperer. I'm a music critic and in that capacity I have been writing about Taylor since she started making music back in the early mid 2000s. So I'm not a Swiftie, but I definitely respect her, absolutely respect her as an artist and as a businesswoman and as a pop cultural phenomenon and all the things. I found it really interesting to observe the backlash against Taylor Swift.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

Some of those lyrics are AI generated. Can I prove it?

[Found (Sponsor Voice)]

No.

[Elias Light]

Worst writing lyrically she has ever done.

[Ann Powers]

In her entire career. Worst, tackiest, most out of touch, most childish.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

I have been for years a huge, huge Taylor Swift fan. I would still consider myself a fan. But I do not like this album.

[Ann Powers]

Which is more intense this year and with this release than it was with her previous release, the tortured Poets Department. Although that album also did incur a bit of a backlash. I'm most interested in how both critics and the general public are now responding to Taylor in a very different way than they did even about the Eras tour. She is sort of like, I imagine her clinging to a giant pendul as it swings back and forth. You know, I feel that's what's happening with her. And this is possibly inevitable with anyone of her stature. I mean, she really occupies a unique space in popular culture, certainly in pop music. But I really think we're seeing it play out that Taylor Swift has become the avatar for so many of our anxieties, so many of our dissatisfactions. And that's pretty interesting to watch.

[Noel King]

Yeah, let's talk about some of the anxieties and dissatisfactions in whether or not Taylor Swift deserves this. So in the first half of the show we talked about how Taylor Swift is a very, very successful businesswoman. No shock there, but two things happened with Hiss album. The first is there are so many variants. There's a Target exclusive Crowd is your King vinyl. There's a hairbrush that Falls apart. There's a tiny bubble in a champagne collection. Right. It's on and on and on. So there's that and then there's that. A lot of people when the album first dropped, decided they didn't really like it.

[Ann Powers]

Yes.

[Noel King]

How do we square those two things? Do those two facts depend on one another?

[Ann Powers]

They're in relationship with one another. I'm not sure if they depend on one another. What's interesting about the backlash about the album itself is that it seems to have been triggered by the leak of the lyrics for a particular song. Actually romantic.

[Taylor Swift]

I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Cokes got you Brave, which.

[Ann Powers]

Is the song that allegedly is aimed at the pop star Charli xcx, an attack on her. Honestly, it is a pretty crass song. You know, it's broad humor. It's not subtle.

[Taylor Swift]

Everything is romantic.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah. And I think the timing of that leak was a big negative for the reception of this album.

[Noel King]

But Anne, it's not like. And then we realize that Taylor Swift is ripped. And then we realize she's gonna like, what? How did everyone become so irritated about the same thing?

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, I mean, this has been building for a while, actually. I think after Tortured Poets Department came out. Since that time, I've started to see more and more online chatter about Taylor Swift's wealth, her social status, and her choice to continue to write songs in which she is the quote unquote, underdog, even though she is so on top of the world. Not coincidentally, I think this was going on as a kind of larger backlash has been brewing against very wealthy Americans in general.

[Noel King]

And her response, Taylor's response is what exactly?

[Ann Powers]

Well, Swift did a small number of interviews upon the release of the record, and in one of them on the Zane Lowe show on Apple Music, she basically said, I'm not the art police.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

It's like everybody is allowed to feel exactly how they want. And what our goal is as entertainers is to be a mirror.

[Ann Powers]

Which I'm sure to her felt, you know, open hearted and confident and reasonable. But I think to others that almost felt like, I don't care about your opinion.

[Sabrina Carpenter]

If it's the first week of my album release and you are saying either my name or my album title, you're helping.

[Ann Powers]

So this was particularly exacerbating to Swifties, to fans who also have been struggling. And that has been a notable part of this backlash. It's not only professional critics, it's not only online trolls who never liked Taylor Swift anyway. A lot of very die hard Taylor fans are also publicly raising doubts about their hero.

[Noel King]

Yeah, there is something to that I don't care about your feelings vibe. Because if you listen to Taylor Swift's music, including songs on this album, like Elizabeth Taylor, to hear this artist who so frequently seems to be playing to us and telling us, hey, feel really bad for me, come out and say, oh, but I don't care what you think. This is not a two way street, guys.

[Ann Powers]

Well, this is where my opinion might differ from some others opinions.

[Noel King]

Oh, tell me.

[Ann Powers]

I don't think she's playing the victim so much on Life of a Showgirl. I think she's playing the villain. I think she's inhabiting a role consciously in which she can express these negative emotions, but she's doing it in this very swaggering, macho way. The one song that truly does trouble me on this album is called Cancelled.

[Taylor Swift]

Good thing I like my friends Cancell.

[Ann Powers]

And in that song, Taylor Swift is. Is addressing her friends who have gone through struggles with the media that resemble the ones she's gone through.

[Taylor Swift]

They're the ones with matching scars.

[Ann Powers]

So those lyrics, you can read them several different ways. I suppose the word canceled has been in the vernacular for a while, right. But in 2025, in the America of 2025, the word canceled hits a certain way. It's far more associated with the right, with the MAGA movement, and with President Trump himself than it is with anyone else. And I have to think Taylor Swift knew that. It's sort of. I mean, she may live in some kind of, you know, fame bubble, but it was surprising to me when I heard that song. And actually I immediately thought, oh, this is risky and not in a good way.

[Noel King]

A lot of people have asked whether a person can create great art when they are rich and happy. So I remember when Cowboy Carter came out and there was this line in one of the songs where Beyonce talks 16 characters. That was it. Where she talks about being overworked and overwhelmed. And that line really triggered people. They were like, no, girl, you're not. There is. So this is a similar type of pushback from a very, very broad audience.

[Ann Powers]

Beyonce did something very smart and very deft, which I also think was, you know, she did it out of conviction, which is that at a certain point in her career, she stopped speaking so much personally as representatively. She started connecting her personal stories with the history of racism and, you know, oppression.

[Noel King]

Lil Malcolm, Mama Tina need another mon.

[Ann Powers]

She's continued to do that also uplifting her family, uplifting her community as she's defined it in that way, she has managed to sort of make her music bigger than herself, make her art bigger than herself. America, America has a problem. Consider that next to Taylor Swift, she has very much clung to autobiography as the center of what she does.

[Noel King]

Beyonce is, you're arguing, very clearly evolving and Taylor Swift, and this is an argument I heard a lot about this album. She is not growing as an artist. What do you make of the critique that this album is an example, not that Taylor Swift isn't a great artist, but that she's not growing?

[Ann Powers]

I find it strange that being a pop star and producing albums is sort of being talked about as if it is a life journey of self improvement. Like, have we asked that fair? Did we ask that of Mick Jagger? You know, I don't know. I don't necessarily think we did. Another thing is I don't have any problem with someone writing songs about adolescence for their whole life. Like, that's fine with me. Now, do you want to hear my theory about the record?

[Noel King]

You're damn right I do.

[Ann Powers]

I don't think Taylor Swift made this record to make more money. I really don't like. Does she need the money? Obviously not. I do think, however, that she's very interested in controlling her public narrative and controlling the narrative that she's building through her albums. She's very, very focused on her music being the center of everything. And I think she made this record because she is now in a happier place in her life and she just can't stand the thought that that last album tortured Poets Department, which shows her at her most vulnerable is the album that's gonna stand. As she's going through this happy phase, as she's getting married, she needed another marker on the highway. She needed a marker on the highway that said, hey, I'm happy now. I'm in control. I have power. I no longer, you know, feel the way I felt when I was wallowing in my own misery. Do I blame her for that? No, I don't blame her for that. I get it completely. But let's recognize it for what it is. It's a marker on her highway and she's going to go somewhere else pretty soon. Soon.

[Noel King]

Anne Powers, NPR Music Critic, Today's team Ariana Espuru, Amana Elsadi, Laura Bullard and Adrian Lilly Ested Herndon starts with us next week. He's going to be filling in for Sean for the next couple months. I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.

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[Noel King]

Oh, yikes.

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[Ann Powers]

Ouch.

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[Ann Powers]

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[Ann Powers]

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