Chicago Pope

Summary

Today, Explained – Episode: Chicago Pope

Release Date: May 9, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Publisher: Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction: Welcoming the New Pope

The episode opens with playful banter between hosts Noel King and Sean Rameswaram, sharing amusing facts about the newly elected Pope Leo XIV, affectionately dubbed the "Chicago Pope." This lighthearted introduction sets the stage for a deeper exploration of the Pope's background and his potential impact on the Catholic Church.

Notable Quotes:

• Noel King [00:01]: "Noel, we got a new Pope. What are your favorite facts about American Pope?"
• Sean Rameswaram [00:05]: "He is a White Sox fan."
• Noel King [00:14]: "In fact, he's 69 years old."

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2. Background of Pope Leo XIV: Robert Prevost

Terence Sweeney, a professor from Villanova University, provides an insightful background on Pope Leo XIV, revealing his roots and journey within the Catholic Church. Robert Prevost, the new pope, is highlighted as the first Augustinian pope and the first American pope in centuries, bringing a unique blend of traditionalism and progressive thought to the papacy.

Key Points:

• Origin: Grew up in Chicago and is a citizen of Peru.
• Education: Math major from Villanova University.
• Missionary Work: Spent significant time in Peru serving the poor, embodying the Augustinian commitment to mission work.

Notable Quotes:

• Terence Sweeney [03:24]: "Prevost is, you know, a kid who grew up in Chicago, went to Villanova University, and... spent most of his life as a priest and then a bishop in the missions in Peru."
• Sean Ramasuram [02:35]: "A math major and big moment for Villanova. The first Augustinian Pope. How surprised was Terence Sweeney?"

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3. Pope Leo XIV's Stance on Immigration and Social Issues

The discussion delves into Pope Leo XIV's strong views on immigration, aligning his positions with the Augustinian principles of broadening one's heart to include those in need. His retweet of criticism against Vice President J.D. Vance signals his commitment to advocating for refugees and marginalized communities.

Key Points:

• Immigration: Advocates for a compassionate approach, emphasizing the expansion of love to include the most forgotten.
• Prophetic Witness: Sees his role as speaking out on critical issues like the environment, abortion, and immigration with gentleness and diplomacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Terence Sweeney [07:54]: "I think fundamentally one of the most important part of being an Augustinian is... making room for everyone."
• Sean Ramasuram [09:50]: "It is very 2025 for a new pope to retweet criticism of a vice president who's had a number of controversies."

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4. The Significance of an American Pope

Having an American pope marks a historic moment for the Catholic Church, especially in a country where Catholics constitute a significant yet declining portion of the population. The episode explores the implications of this development amidst America's complex history with Catholicism.

Key Points:

• Catholic Demographics: Approximately 53 million Catholics in America, around 20% of the population, with numbers trending downward.
• Historical Context: References to anti-Catholic sentiments in the past, including the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
• Cultural Integration: The alliance between conservative Catholics and American evangelicals has helped integrate Catholics into the mainstream.

Notable Quotes:

• Kathryn Kaleidos [13:38]: "There’s roughly 53 million Catholics in America, which is about 20% of the country."
• Kathryn Kaleidos [14:14]: "People forget this. When Kennedy was running for President, his Catholicism was a genuine issue."

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5. Tensions Within American Catholicism: Cradle vs. Convert Catholics

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the growing divide between cradle Catholics—those born into the faith—and convert Catholics, particularly those from conservative Protestant backgrounds like Vice President J.D. Vance. This divide centers around differing interpretations and expressions of Catholicism.

Key Points:

• Cradle Catholics: Often experience Catholicism as part of their cultural and community life, emphasizing charity and tradition.
• Convert Catholics: Tend to adopt a more text-based and doctrinal approach, influenced by American cultural politics and evangelical Protestantism.
• Political Implications: Converts like J.D. Vance bring distinct theological perspectives that sometimes clash with traditional Catholic views.

Notable Quotes:

• Kathryn Kaleidos [15:10]: "The convert's Catholicism is likely very different than the Catholicism you knew growing up."
• J.D. Vance [15:24]: "I appreciate that... there are some people on the Internet who don't like Catholic converts."

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6. Pope Leo XIV's Potential Role in Bridging Divides

The episode examines whether Pope Leo XIV possesses the capacity to unite the divergent factions within American Catholicism. His background as an Augustinian and his diplomatic experience are seen as assets in fostering reconciliation and mutual understanding.

Key Points:

• Bridge Builder: Pope Leo's life and work demonstrate a commitment to connecting different groups and fostering dialogue.
• Institutional Harmony: His approach combines pastoral compassion with doctrinal conservatism, aiming to maintain relevance while respecting tradition.
• Future Vision: Positioned to navigate the Church through contemporary challenges by balancing progressive and traditional elements.

Notable Quotes:

• Kathryn Kaleidos [23:55]: "He will continue to pursue, probably in less volatile terms, Pope Francis's strategy of pastoral compassion paired with doctrinal conservatism."
• Kathryn Kaleidos [23:07]: "He has the capacity within the institution at least, to build those bridges, make those connections."

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7. Conclusion: The Road Ahead for Pope Leo XIV and American Catholicism

The episode wraps up with hosts and guests reflecting on the potential trajectory of Pope Leo XIV's papacy and its implications for the Catholic Church in America. The consensus suggests cautious optimism, highlighting Pope Leo's skills in diplomacy and his commitment to inclusivity as key factors that could lead to a more unified and resilient Catholic community.

Notable Quotes:

• Noel King [23:54]: "Kathryn Kaleidos wrote about the cradles and the converts for Vox.com the piece is titled The Hidden Religious Divide Erupting into Politics."
• Sean Ramasuram [25:13]: "This was Chicago Pope."

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Final Notes:

Throughout the episode, hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King skillfully navigate the complexities surrounding the election of Pope Leo XIV, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of his background, his potential impact on social issues, and the internal dynamics of the American Catholic Church. The inclusion of expert insights from Terence Sweeney and Kathryn Kaleidos enriches the discussion, making it both informative and engaging for listeners seeking to grasp the significance of an American pope in the modern era.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Noel, we got a new Pope. What are your favorite facts about American Pope?

[Sean Ramasuram]

He is a White Sox fan.

[Noel King]

Chicago Pope has been to a World Series. Amazing. He's a citizen of Peru.

[Sean Ramasuram]

He loves ceviche.

[Noel King]

In fact, he's 69 years old.

[Sean Ramasuram]

He loves to play tennis like you.

[Noel King]

He's got Creole roots from New Orleans.

[Sean Ramasuram]

A beautiful thing, an American thing. Oh, he loves Christmas movies.

[Noel King]

What did he major in in school?

[Sean Ramasuram]

He was a math major.

[Noel King]

He doesn't just love sin, but also co.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Oh my God. Oh my God, you're so smart.

[Noel King]

What are we going to talk about on this show, though?

[Terence Sweeney]

Noel?

[Noel King]

These are just fun facts.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Pope Leo XIV has very strong thoughts about immigration. We're going to talk about why on.

[Noel King]

Today, explained.

[Sue Bird]

Sue Bird here. I am thrilled to announce I'm launching a brand new show, Bird's Eye View, the definitive WNBA podcast. Every week we'll dig into the WNBA stories that actually matter with guest interviews, candid takes, and in depth analysis from around the league. It's a show I've wanted to make for a while, and I'm so excited it's finally happening. Whether you're new to the WNBA or a longtime fan, pull up. This show is for you. Bird's Eye view is coming May 16th. Follow the show on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[Noel King]

People of many different ideologies, when taken to the extreme, actually start to resemble each other. Although you might be feeling like you're fighting for completely different missions, you're psychologically engaged in a very similar process.

[Terence Sweeney]

So what is that process? This week on the Gray Area, we're talking about how our psychology affects our ideology. New episodes of the Gray Area drop every Monday everywhere. Hi, I'm Terence Sweeney. I'm a professor in the honors program and humanities department at Villanova University, which is, of note, the only Augustinian university in the United States. And we now have a very famous alumni, the new pope, Pope Leo, graduate of 1977 and delightfully, a math major, continuing a kind of math and chemistry thing. Pope Francis was a chemistry major as an undergrad, and Leo is a math major, which is great.

[Sean Ramasuram]

A math major and big moment for Villanova. The first Augustinian Pope. How surprised was Terence Sweeney?

[Terence Sweeney]

I was both surprised and not surprised. I've been talking about him with friends and students for the past couple of weeks. Yesterday in the morning, I popped into the office of Father Allen, an Augustinian on campus, and I said, are we going to have an Augustinian pope? And he said he didn't think so. And sure enough, Few hours later, I was watching the livestream, which apparently was lagging a little bit, and I found out who it was when I got a text message from my friend who said, you called it. But at the same time, I was very surprised. I was hopeful for him, but he's an American, and traditionally that's. Oh, it won't happen. I both kind of called it and was totally shocked.

[Sean Ramasuram]

All right, so tell us who he is. Who is Robert Prevost or Pope Leo xiv?

[Terence Sweeney]

Yeah, Prevost is, you know, a kid who grew up in Chicago, went to Villanova University, and there really encountered or continued his encounter with the Augustinians. He had met Augustinians as a young. A young man, and joined the order, and I think maybe most notably, then proceeded to spend most of his life as a priest and then a bishop in the missions in Peru. He could have gotten assigned to Villanova. He could have gotten assigned to a nice parish in a wealthier part of the. But instead, he went to Peru to be with the poor, to do work there, to do ministry there. And I think that's. That's really, in many ways, the heart of who he is, you know, and you can think about, like, you know, I have. I have a pretty cushy spot at Villanova. I have a house. It's. It's, you know, comfortable to suddenly shift gears to a totally new culture, learning the language fully in a place that maybe doesn't have as many perks as American suburban parish might. I think that's a real sign of wanting to be with those on the margins of global power and economics. But I don't think we've had a pope in centuries who has had this experience of working in the missions. We've had pastor popes, scholar popes, diplomat popes, but a pope who spent most of his life in a poor part of a country doing missionary work. I don't even know if we've ever had one.

[Sean Ramasuram]

When Pope Francis died, there was a big conversation about whether the church would pick somebody who was more traditional or who was viewed as more progressive the way Pope Francis was. What kind of choice is Pope Leo xiv? Where does he fall on that spectrum?

[Terence Sweeney]

I think he, in some ways, like Pope Francis, he kind of throws us off these spectrums. He took the name Leo, which in many ways is a kind of pretty traditional papal name. He's the 14th, right. He's not the first. He's kind of closely identifying with, I think, both the first Pope Leo, Pope Saint Leo the Great, and Pope Leo xiii, who Are, you know, richly part of the tradition. Leo XIII is notable for his work on something called Catholic social thought. What the Church brings to the questions of economics and justice and politics. And that has tended to be something that what we call progressive Catholics have really centered on. So I think in some ways it's unclear and it was actually kind of exciting. I think it was also notable that the language of his first address to the people in St. Peter's Square was richly tied in with Pope Francis.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Ancora conserviamo ne nostro recchi cuella voce de ebole massempre corajosa di Papa Francesco que benediva Roma.

[Terence Sweeney]

You know, he talked about bridge building and peace, being with all of you.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Atota le persone o v quesiano.

[Terence Sweeney]

And I think maybe there are some signs that he wants to carry on a lot of what Pope Francis did, but maybe make more connections, we might say, between the kind of Pope Francis side of the Church and the Pope Benedict side.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Hmm. Middle child vibes.

[Terence Sweeney]

I know, that's me.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Same, actually. All right, so you've mentioned several times that he is an Augustinian. What is an Augustinian exactly?

[Terence Sweeney]

The Augustinians are a group of. They're called friars. They were founded in 1244. And they're grounded in a deep sense of, I think maybe three principles, living in community. A really strong sense that wherever we go, we go together. Deep sense of the heart. The Augustinians, if you ever see an icon of St. Augustine, he's often holding a heart that the sense that what we need to do is make that connection with other peoples in their heart and a really strong sense of a kind of call to the mission to go out. Original Augustinians often went into cities and places to be with where people were. And so I think that's important in this kind of tradition of the Augustinians. Deeply heart based, strong aspects of intellectual life, hence Villanova. But it's a really wonderful order and it's so exciting to see them get their moment in the, in the spotlight.

[Sean Ramasuram]

So after Robert Prevost was chosen yesterday, immediately it came to the surface that he had expressed some opinions on immigration. And I saw people, and you had written about this in the past, kind of drawing a line between the Augustinian tradition and the current controversies that the United States is facing over immigration. What is the Augustinian position on immigration?

[Terence Sweeney]

I think fundamentally one of the most important part of being an Augustinian is sometimes called the Order of Loves. It's this idea in many ways that our hearts need to grow. You know, our hearts can get very narrow. We can just fall in love only with ourselves. So finding a way to have our hearts expand to make room for God, who is infinite. And when you make room for God, you make room for everyone. And that broadening of our hearts, particularly then, not for everyone, but also particularly for those in need. And maybe one of the big tasks of his pontificate for Americans, for all kinds of Catholics, for all kinds of people, is helping us broaden our hearts. I mean, I think notably, you know, we have a vice president who's Catholic, but J.D. vance has spoken about the Order of.

[J.D. Vance]

Loves, and I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country. And then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world. A lot of.

[Terence Sweeney]

In some ways, you can think about what he said as, you know, having a lot of the right words but getting the tune wrong. He described. It's true, I think very important idea is that the Order of Loves teaches us that we rightly prioritize people who are closer to us. I have my fourth baby on the way. I spend a lot of time and invest a lot of energy and love in those children. They're my children. And so he's emphasizing that and that kind of sense. And Americans rightly prioritize Americans, and that's true, but he's kind of missing the point of the Order of Loves, that it's supposed to expand, you know, to go outward. Whereas Vance seems to be talking about it as a way of retracting and going inward. And Pope Francis challenged him on this. And then notably, you know, the. The power of a retweet. Prevost retweeted an article in America magazine about challenging Vance on this. So I think a kind of early indication that he, as pope, is going to very much stand with a broadening of our loves.

[Sean Ramasuram]

It is very 2025 for a new pope to be retweeting criticism of a vice president who's had a number of controversies. What do you think it tells us about Robert Prevost, Pope Leo xiv?

[Terence Sweeney]

I think that he sees that his office as a bishop and now as bishop of Rome is a prophetic one. It means that he has the task. I mean, he has to do this with gentleness. He has to do this with a certain kind of diplomacy. He's also now head of state, but he has a task of prophetic witness. That prophetic witness is going to speak about a lot of things. He's going to speak about the environment. He will definitely speak about immigration. He's going to speak about abortion. He's going to speak about a number of things a lot of times that are going to throw American binaries off. You know, I think we have keep in mind he's a profoundly pro refugee and pro life pope. And something I share with him, the sense that the love that we broaden out is meant to go particularly the smallest and the most forgotten. And I think he sees that, and I think he's going to speak in that prophetic witness, as did the popes before him.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Terence Sweeney, Villanova, thank you so much for taking the time today. We really appreciate it.

[Terence Sweeney]

Thank you. Very excited. Go Wildcats. Go Pope Leo xiv.

[Sean Ramasuram]

All right, Chun. Go Wildcats. What's coming up next?

[Noel King]

Okay, next we're gonna hear from a religious researcher about a fight the American Catholics are having right now.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Noel, what's the fight about?

[Noel King]

It's a fight between cradle Catholics, those who are born Catholic and convert Catholics, those who are adopting Catholicism later in life, about the true meaning of the faith.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Can't wait.

[Noel King]

Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. Not B U I L T, but B I L T. Let's talk about points, not point guards, not the Pointer Sisters, not the classic 1991 Keanu Reeves surf noir movie Point Break shout outs to Johnny Utah. Although if you do want to talk about Point Break, nobody's stopping you. Not enough people are talking about Point Break. They've let me spend this much of this ad talking about Point Break. And for that alone, BILT Rewards, I salute to you. Built Rewards lets you earn points on your rent. They say you can also gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. Things like extra points on dining out, complimentary post workout shakes, and unique experiences that only Built members can access. You can start paying rent through BILT and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to join Built.com explained. That's J O I N B I L T.com explained. Join Built.com explained to sign up for Built Today. This is Today Explained.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

So, I'm Kathryn Kaleidos and I'm a research associate at the Institute of Orthodox Christian Studies, Cambridge.

[Terence Sweeney]

Sweet.

[Noel King]

But you are not in Cambridge. You are elsewhere.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

Yeah, I came for Coachella. I'm in Rome.

[Noel King]

Coachella. The Coachella of Catholicism?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Noel King]

And how is it?

[Terence Sweeney]

Did it deliver?

[Noel King]

How was the headliner?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I think the people who show up are going to be happy about it no matter what. The Papacy inspires that kind of reverence for who you get.

[Noel King]

It feels like the first ever American Pope presents us with an opportunity to speak about Catholicism in America. How many Americans are Catholic?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

There's roughly 53 million Catholics in America, which is about 20% of the country.

[Noel King]

Are those numbers trending upwards or downwards in the United States, do you know?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

It's trending downwards. The size of the Catholic Church is shrinking, both in real numbers and as a percentage of the population. We might have hit the sort of zenith of Catholic representation in America.

[Noel King]

Not anymore. We just got an American Pope, I guess so.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

Yeah, that's right. We won. But, you know, I think it's really interesting that you have a country that was, you know, oftentimes hostile towards Catholics. Right.

[Noel King]

They killed Kennedy.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

People forget this. When Kennedy was running for President, his Catholicism was a genuine issue.

[Terence Sweeney]

I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish, when no public official either requests or accept instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches, or any other ecclesiastical source.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

And Catholics were accused of dual loyalty because of the Pope. You know, it was a real problem if your kid came home and wanted to marry a Catholic. And all these things. That has largely disappeared in no small part because of the alliance between conservative Catholics and American evangelicals. Right. Catholics are brought into the mainstream that way.

[Noel King]

And you've written about another issue in Catholicism in the United States, which is a growing tension between cradle Catholics and converted Catholics. Tell us more about that.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

Yeah. So there has been, both to the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, this influx of largely politically conservative, largely white converts who were either from non religious backgrounds, but largely from these conservative Protestant backgrounds that convert, even evangelical backgrounds that convert to the Catholic Church. The most famous example in America today is the Vice President of the United States, J.D. vance.

[J.D. Vance]

I believe, Maureen, and maybe this is wrong, that I'm the first Catholic convert to ever be Vice President of the United States. And I appreciate that, I appreciate you guys clapping because it turns out there are some people on the Internet who don't like Catholic converts. And in fact, there are some, some, some Catholics who appear not to like Catholic converts. I've learned that the hard way. But of course, the gross.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

These converts are very specific type, right? And probably, you know, their Catholicism is likely very different than the Catholicism you knew growing up.

[J.D. Vance]

When I was a kid, we used to call new converts to the faith baby Christians. And I recognize very much that I am a baby Catholic.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

If you grow up a Catholic in America or anywhere. You're embedded in this cultural context that the church is part of. And while you might sort of learn your catechism as you prepare for your first communion or for your confirmation, you're not experiencing Catholic theology in a vacuum. And you're not coming to Catholic theology looking for a justification for your oftentimes very traditional worldview that has been created and that you're reacting to within the context of like American cultural politics. I think that is the, the core difference, that these are people who come to Catholicism looking for a certain paradigm that is completely part and parcel of the American cultural context and of the American culture wars of the past 50 plus years.

[Noel King]

So it's kind of like if you were baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant, you might be sort of living your life as a Catholic based on vibes. Whereas if you're a convert, like a J.D. vance type, you might be like extremely into medieval theology. I saw someone online some years ago say something like, every lifelong Catholic I've ever met is like, I think we're supposed to give this food to poor people. And every adult convert is like the Archon of Constantinople's epistle on the Pentecosting rites of the Eucharist clearly states women shouldn't have driver's licenses.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

Absolutely. That is exactly the difference. Right. If you think about your nonna's Catholicism, it's. It was probably a lot about community and about going to Mass because it comforts you and charity a lot. This is a Catholicism and a religiosity that is in many ways taking the most draconian and text based aspects of evangelical Protestantism. Right. It's a lot of like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine and quoting Latin, which is very divorced from the way most cradle Catholics experience their Catholicism.

[Noel King]

You point out in your piece for Vox that while there aren't tons of Catholic converts out there, there are some particularly loud ones, like our very online vice president. Are the converts creating tension in parishes around the country and diocese around the country, or is this something that you mostly experience online?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I mean, I think online is a definite place that gets experienced the most oftentimes because cradle Catholics don't really run across these converts unless they're online. Parishes tend to be pretty divided between cradle and convert Catholics. So you have these kind of historical parishes in communities or largely immigrant parishes where cradle Catholics are going, and then you have these, these convert parishes, essentially. So in real, in real life, these people aren't often encountering each other. And then they encounter each other online. And I think there's some real shock on the part of a lot of cradle Catholics and on the part of convert Catholics. Right. Because, you know, I think there's some disappointment when you convert to this kind of what you think is this idealized medieval whatever you've made up in your head. And then you encounter real people who just do not understand this thing the same way you do.

[Terence Sweeney]

Yeah.

[Noel King]

What's the draw for the converts? I mean, there's any number of religious sects you could glom onto. If you're looking for some sort of sense of community or theology, why Catholicism and why, you know, the theology of Thomas Aquinas?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I think it's an anti modernism. So if you have come to believe that the problem with the world is modernity and change, looking to institutions that seem defy modernity and change becomes appealing. I mean, like, if you think the problem is stuff changes, you're gonna start looking for the things that change the least.

[Noel King]

And yet it seems like the job of the Pope in this day and age is to bring modernity to the Catholic Church. And that puts the JD Vance's and convert Catholics of the world at odds with the direction of the Catholic Church.

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I think to save not just the Catholic Church, but to save Christianity in the west, in Western Europe and North America, the Church is going to have to reform what that reform looks like. I think both Pope Francis and now Pope Leo have a certain vision of that that maybe isn't progressive enough for the progressives, but is too progressive for the traditionalists. But the reality is that for the Church to remain relevant in the places that has traditionally been powerful. Right. It is going to have to change in some ways. And that means that to keep those cradle Catholics within the fold of the church, the converts largely in America, are going to be disappointed.

[Noel King]

And I read that the initial reaction out there in Vatican City when they announced Pope Leo was sort of confusion, ambivalence is some people saying an American. I thought they'd never pick an American. And he wasn't one of the favorites and all this stuff. But then he came out and he spoke powerfully.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Con el dialgo con el.

[Noel King]

Encontro unendo about his ambitions and, you know, sort of carrying the torch for Pope Francis and the need to build bridges. And people were sort of sold on that in the moment.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Grazie a papa Francesco.

[Noel King]

Do you think Pope Leo can build stronger bridges between the cradle Catholics and the converts?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

So I think that his life is one of bridge building. He is, if not a compromise candidate. He is an institutional candidate. He has served in a role that is essentially that of a diplomat, Right, for all intents and purposes, and that is about negotiating within the institution various positions and interests and conflicts. That is a very valuable skill for anybody. But I think for the Pope at this moment, that is an extraordinarily valuable skill. And because of that, he has the capacity within the institution at least, to build those bridges, make those connections, and maybe shore up the fortress for whatever comes next.

[Noel King]

And how do you think he does that?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I think, you know, I mean, I'm glad I'm not pope, so I don't have to do that. I think he will continue to pursue, probably in less volatile terms, Pope Francis strategy of pastoral compassion paired with doctrinal conservatism. Those two things can coexist side by side. And perhaps the only way that to keep Catholicism relevant and alive in these different and competing factions when you have these big tent institutions like the Catholic Church, is an approach like that.

[Noel King]

Kathryn Kaleidos wrote about the cradles and the converts for Vox.com the piece is titled the Hidden Religious Divide Erupting into Politics. At the end of our conversation, we asked her, who's headlining day two of Catholic Coachella?

[Kathryn Kaleidos]

I'm gonna go have some drinks with some Franciscans. You have not drinks. Have you drank with priests? Any priest can drink you under the table. I guarantee it. And I don't know how hard you can go.

[Sean Ramasuram]

Chin chin, girl. Amanda Llewellyn and Avishai Artsy produced today's show. They had help from Jolie Myers, Laura Bullard, Gabrielle Burbe, Andrea Christin's daughter, Patrick Boyd, and the two of us. I'm Noel King.

[Noel King]

I'm Sean Ramasuram.

[Sean Ramasuram]

This was Chicago Pope.