Conclave (2025)

Summary

Today, Explained – Episode: Conclave (2025) Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Today, Explained
• Host/Author: Vox
• Description: Today, Explained is Vox's daily news explainer podcast. Hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King guide listeners through the most important stories of the day.
• Episode: Conclave (2025)
• Release Date: April 22, 2025

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Introduction to Conclave 2025

In this episode of Today, Explained, host Sean Rameswaram delves into the significant event of Conclave 2025, the Catholic Church’s process for electing a new pope following the passing of Pope Francis. Featuring insights from Catherine Kaleidos, a research associate at the Institute of Orthodox Christian Studies in Cambridge, the discussion navigates the complexities of the Church's current state and the potential directions it may take under new leadership.

The Global Shift in the Catholic Church

Catherine Kaleidos outlines the broader context within which Conclave 2025 takes place. She highlights a pivotal moment of transition for the Catholic Church, marked by:

• Demographic Changes: The Church faces declining membership in Western Europe and North America but is experiencing substantial growth in the Global South, including Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

  “The Catholic Church, like Christianity writ large, is in demographic trouble in Western Europe and North America, yet it is growing exponentially in Asia, Africa, Latin America...” (02:13)

• Cultural Tensions: The Church is grappling with internal divisions between progressives and traditionalists. In Western regions, progressive stances on gender and sexuality are causing friction, leading to declining adherence. Conversely, more conservative views in the Global South are fostering growth.

  “Most every bit of good data we have about why people leave the Catholic Church... is largely centered around these issues of gender and sexuality.” (04:07)

Influence of Pope Francis on the Conclave

A critical factor in the upcoming conclave is the significant influence of Pope Francis, who appointed approximately 80% of the current cardinal electors. This has effectively shaped the demographic and ideological landscape of the conclave.

“Pope Francis has now appointed 80% of the cardinal electors.” (06:03)

Kaleidos draws a parallel between these appointments and political maneuvers, likening it to "packing the Supreme Court."

“Is that the papal equivalent of, like, trying to pack the Supreme Court? Yeah, a little bit.” (06:22)

Contenders for the Papacy

The discussion identifies several frontrunners for the next pope, representing various factions within the Church:

1. Cardinal Robert Serra (Guinea):

   • Profile: A staunch traditionalist with strong views on gender and liturgical practices.
   • Appeal: Garners support from traditionalist Catholics seeking a return to the papal models of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II.

   “Cardinal Robert Serra... is a very traditionalist cardinal, a very traditionalist theologian and pastor.” (07:33)

2. Cardinal Jose Mendoza (Portugal):

   • Profile: Represents the progressive camp, advocating for greater inclusion of women and LGBT individuals.
   • Prospects: While progressive, his relatively young age (59) makes his election less likely in the immediate conclave.

   “Cardinal Jose Mendoza... is very progressive, I think, in the ways that we sort of think about progressiveness.” (07:33)

3. Cardinal Louis Tagale (Philippines):

   • Profile: Considered the favorite, he is seen as a moderate akin to Pope Francis, combining theological moderation with pastoral openness.
   • Significance: As a Filipino, his election would reflect the growing influence of the Global South within the Church.

   “Cardinal Louis Tagale from the Philippines... is the inspired choice.” (09:48)

4. Cardinal Pier Battista Pizzabala:

   • Profile: Known for outspoken views on geopolitical issues, such as the conflict in Gaza.
   • Challenges: His controversial stances may disqualify him from consideration.

   “Cardinal Pier Battista Pizzabala... his very outspoken position on the conflict in Gaza would probably disqualify him.” (10:57)

Implications of the New Papacy

Kaleidos discusses the potential outcomes based on the likely selection of Cardinal Tagale:

• Continuation of the Franciscan Model: Emphasizes humility, mercy, and adaptability to regional contexts, allowing the Church to reconcile ideological differences.

  “If we have Cardinal Tagale become the next pope, it is a sort of continuation of the Franciscan model.” (12:10)

• Liturgical Reforms: Ongoing changes from Vatican II will likely persist, fostering flexibility in liturgical practices to accommodate diverse cultural contexts.

  “Liturgical reforms... no pope is going to be able to unring that bell.” (13:19)

Canonization of St. Carlo Kutis: The First Millennial Saint

Transitioning from the conclave, host Sean Ramis introduces Michael Digiovinay, a professor of anthropology, who discusses the canonization of St. Carlo Kutis, the Catholic Church’s first millennial saint.

Background of St. Carlo Kutis:

• Early Life: Born in London to Italian parents, Carlo was raised by nannies from Ireland and Poland, instilling in him a profound sense of religiosity despite his parents’ lack of active practice.

  “He was raised by nannies... who were the ones that were religious.” (17:10)

• Relatability: Carlo is portrayed as a relatable figure, dealing with everyday struggles such as bullying, self-esteem issues, and a love for popular culture, including playing Halo and Pokémon.

  “He was a religious but down to earth kid... played Halo.” (19:01)

Miracles Attributed to St. Carlo:

1. Healing of Matthias:

   • Incident: A five-year-old boy with an annular pancreas, a condition causing severe malnutrition.
   • Miracle: After Carlo’s intercession, Matthias reportedly consumed a full meal without adverse effects, and medical explanations could not account for the change.

   “They were taken... and when he went home, apparently he ate a whole steak and french fries and didn't throw up.” (20:11)

2. Recovery of a Costa Rican Student:

   • Incident: A female student suffered a traumatic brain injury from a bicycle accident.
   • Miracle: After her mother prayed at Carlo’s sarcophagus in Assisi, the student miraculously awakened from her coma.

   “When she got back to Florence, apparently her daughter was awake.” (21:16)

Significance of Canonization:

• Symbolism: Carlo embodies the modern, relatable saint that aligns with Pope Francis’s vision of humility and mercy.

  “He really epitomizes all of the messaging that Pope Francis has done... being humble, being merciful.” (23:37)

• Impact: Carlo’s sainthood bridges traditional and contemporary Catholic values, appealing to younger generations and reinforcing the Church’s adaptability.

  “Mother Teresa is more along the lines of who Carlo is and more along the lines of what the message of what saints should be that Francis gives us.” (23:30)

Conclusion

The episode of Today, Explained masterfully navigates two pivotal developments within the Catholic Church: the influential Conclave 2025 and the groundbreaking canonization of St. Carlo Kutis. Through expert analysis and engaging discussions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the Church's current transformation and its implications for the future.

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Notable Quotes:

• “The Catholic Church... is in demographic trouble in Western Europe and North America, yet it is growing exponentially in Asia, Africa, Latin America...” – Catherine Kaleidos (02:13)

• “Cardinal Robert Serra... is a very traditionalist cardinal, a very traditionalist theologian and pastor.” – Catherine Kaleidos (07:33)

• “Cardinal Louis Tagale from the Philippines... is the inspired choice.” – Catherine Kaleidos (09:48)

• “If we have Cardinal Tagale become the next pope, it is a sort of continuation of the Franciscan model.” – Catherine Kaleidos (12:10)

• “He really epitomizes all of the messaging that Pope Francis has done... being humble, being merciful.” – Michael Digiovinay (23:37)

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the Conclave (2025) episode of Today, Explained, providing listeners with a clear and comprehensive overview of the topics covered.

Transcript

[Sean Ramis]

We may never know what Pope Francis thought of converted Catholic JD Vance because he died shortly after meeting our vice president. The world will miss its cool pope, who is best known for caring about the poor, rejecting the frills of the papacy, and talking smack about American politicians. But he also dropped an album once. It's a lot of prayer mixed with a lot of straight up pop music. Cuidar El Planeta since it's Earth Day, here's a taste of Cuidar el Planeta or take care of the planet. What comes after Pope Francis coming up on Today Explained.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

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[Catherine Kaleidos]

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[Catherine Kaleidos]

Explain.

[Sean Ramis]

Catherine Kaleidos is a research associate at the Institute of Orthodox Christian Studies in England's Cambridge. We reached out to her to ask her about Conclave 2025.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Yeah. So the Catholic Church is like so many, I think, global religious bodies in a sort of moment of transition. Right. We're in a moment of greater religious transition than we have been since the Enlightenment, really, in the past 300 years. There's a couple of factors. We all, particularly in the United States, have a really good understanding of this idea of culture war and this divide between progressives and traditionalists, which is definitely a factor in this decision. There's also a geographic element to this as well. The Catholic Church, like Christianity writ large, is in demographic trouble in Western Europe and North America, yet it is growing exponentially in Asia, Africa, Latin America, places that are kind of collectively called the global South.

[Michael Digiovinay]

The Catholic population in Africa has grown significantly from around 185 million in 2013.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

To an estimated 230 million by the end of 2025. The Catholic Church in South Korea has shown exponential growth in the last 50 years. There were about half a million Catholics in the country in the 1960s, but today there are nearly 6 million. And so there's increasing pressure to have a Pope who reflects that reality. Of course, this last pope was the first Latin American pope. He was from Argentina, but he was also the son of Italian immigrants. Right. So there's this kind of. He sort of occupied this middle space.

[Sean Ramis]

I'm sure the Church is elated to be growing in the Global south, but I'm sure it's equally miserable to be shrinking in Western Europe and North America. Why is it shrinking in Western Europe and North America? Do you know?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

So this is the conundrum. Most every bit of good data we have about why people leave the Catholic Church and leave Christianity writ large is largely centered around these issues of gender and sexuality, primarily the failure of the Catholic Church to become more progressive with respect to women, with respect to LGBT people. And this is the tension then, because these are the factors that are driving people out of the Catholic Church in North America and Western Europe. And yet, at the same time, people are much more conservative on these issues in places like Africa and Asia, where the Church is growing. Latin America is a little bit more of a wild card, but overall, Catholics are more socially conservative in those places.

[Sean Ramis]

Got it. So there's this tension in the Catholic Church, just like there's this tension most everywhere we look right now, between progressivism and conservatism. How is that going to factor in to this conclave to decide the next pope?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Well, for many people, particularly conservatives, traditionalists in the Catholic Church, the reign of Pope Francis was one that was very, very difficult. And they see this as an opportunity to return to a more traditional papacy in the model of Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul ii. And there are some people in the progressive camp, particularly in North America and Western Europe, who don't think Pope Francis went far enough, that he didn't go far enough in addressing inclusion for women and LGBT people, and that he didn't go far enough in addressing the sexual abuse scandal, which has, of course, been at the center of Catholic life in many ways, and Catholic politics for the past two decades.

[Sean Ramis]

The conclave that elected Pope Francis met in 2013. How will this conclave in 2025 look differently from that one?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

The primary way it will look different is that Pope Francis has now appointed 80% of the cardinal electors. So that is the cardinals in the College of Cardinals who are allowed to vote for pope 80% of those 108 of the 135 have been appointed by Pope Franc.

[Sean Ramis]

Is that the papal equivalent of, like, trying to pack the Supreme Court?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Yeah, a little bit. Absolutely. And, you know, I would say about 50 of those electors are really what you might call like a pastoralist in the image of Pope Francis. I think it's important to remember that as much as we think of Pope Francis as sort of a reforming pope, he didn't change Catholic doctrine all that much. Right. He pursued Catholic doctrine in a way that one might call much more pastoral. So, you know, the example of the little boy whose atheist father had died. Pope Francis didn't change Catholic doctrine to say that non believers, that the unbaptized would go to heaven. What he did is he told that little boy that his father was probably in heaven. Right. That's a different bent than changing Catholic doctrine. And I would say, you know, 50 of the cardinals now, give or take, depending on how you want to cut this, are really in that theological, pastoral, papal model.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, so who are the contenders in this conclave? Do we have some frontrunners?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Yes, we have some pretty clear frontrunners at this point, particularly in the immediate period after the Pope's death. Some people have really emerged in the traditionalist camp. The real frontrunner is a man named Cardinal Robert Serra from Guinea. All the front runners in the traditionalist camp more or less are Africans. There is a Hungarian, but more or less, they're Africans. So, Cardinal Robert Serra, if you go on a lot of traditionalist Catholic social media at the moment, you are going to see a lot of love for Cardinal Robert Serra. He is a very traditionalist cardinal, a very traditionalist theologian and pastor. Should not a biological man use the men's restroom? How simple can that concept be? Certainly he's very traditional. One might even say a bit draconian on issues of gender and sexuality, but also on liturgical issues, questions like the Latin Mass, things that people outside the Catholic Church or outside of sort of religious circles tend to debate. You also have sort of the far reach, what I would call the far reach, progressives. Right. People like Cardinal Jose Mendoza from Portugal. He is only 59, and so it is very unlikely he would become Pope, quite frankly. But he's very progressive, I think, in the ways that we sort of think about progressiveness, even in a American political sense. So, for example, he has shown some real sympathies for a Benedictine nun who is interested in the ordination of women and who is pro choice. He's the far end of Cardinal Sarah. Right. What we'll probably get though, and right now, Vegas, the betting odds, the last time I checked, we're on this Filipino cardinal. You can always trust the Vegas betting odds because people actually put money on it. Right?

[Sean Ramis]

A holy, holy bet.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Yeah, Love it. Like, actually bet on it. Cardinal Louis Tagale from the Philippines. This is, I think, the inspired choice, not to be too punny about it. He is sometimes called the Asian Francis. So he is theologically, I would say, very moderate, but pastorally sort of open in the way that we saw with Francis.

[Michael Digiovinay]

Many things are changing, but the living conditions of some people have remained stagnant or even worse.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

And I call this a scandal. The Philippines is one of the most Catholic countries in the world. It's in the heart of Asia. You would get a non white Pope, which I think is important at this point, who is also sort of in keeping with the general ideological, theological, philosophical mood of the Conclave at the moment.

[Sean Ramis]

Got it. And you didn't mention perhaps the most delicious choice, Pier Battista Pizzabala. Why is that?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

I think that particularly his very outspoken position on the conflict in Gaza would probably disqualify him at this point.

[Sean Ramis]

Interesting, because another famous Catholic who had outspoken views on the conflict in Gaza was Pope Francis himself. Is that to say that that turned off this Conclave?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

I think that it's one thing when you have a sitting Pope who's able to take those hard lines and who has developed a good relationship, you know, around Catholic relations with Judaism and Israel? Pope Francis had a great record for a pope in terms of his relationship with Israel and his relationship with Judais. It's different when you bring in a new pope, I would argue.

[Sean Ramis]

Hmm. So it sounds like Asian Francis is the favorite, and it sounds like Asian Francis would perhaps just, you know, be a passing of the baton, so to speak, in terms of Francis progressive politics. What does that mean for the Catholic Church in the years ahead, if indeed Asian Francis is selected?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

I think if we have Cardinal Tagale become the next pope, it is a sort of continuation of the Franciscan model. First, it does signal in some ways this not turning away from Western Europe and North America, but an acknowledgement that where the Church is growing, what the average Catholic looks like is changing. I think for many people, this approach, this what we might call a Francis approach to the tensions within the Catholic Church is the way in which the majority of the cardinals understand the best approach to be. If you allow flexibility, regional flexibility, local flexibility, parish level flexibility in how that doctrine is applied, you can reconcile these real tensions over ideology, over theology, over doctrine, over morality. That exists within the Catholic Church today and really exists within, you know, every Christian tradition and every society at this point.

[Sean Ramis]

So if we get Cardinal de Gale, we might continue to see Mariachi Mass in the southwestern United States?

[Catherine Kaleidos]

Absolutely. I think in terms of liturgical reforms, the liturgical reforms of Vatican II and beyond, as much as there are people on traditionalist Latin mats, Facebook groups, and discords around the world who would like to see that change, no pope is going to be able to unring that bell. I don't think even Cardinal Serra could do that.

[Sean Ramis]

The biggest movie in the country is Sinners. But when TODAY Explained returns, we're going to talk about Saints. Support for TODAY Explained comes from Vanta. If I could automate 90% of one task in my life, oh no, they are putting me on this spot. Oh, I like most of the tasks I do. What do I not like? I guess I wouldn't take the trash out. I don't like the alley behind my house. Maybe if I had a robot I would have them go into the alley behind my house and take out the trash and then pick out some of the trash that's already in that alley because other people aren't doing their fair share in the neighborhood anyway. Vanta says they're a trust management platform that helps businesses automate up to 90% of the work. For in demand security frameworks like SOC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more, go to vanta.com explain to meet with a Vanta expert about your business needs. That's vanta.com explain.

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This is today Explained.

[Sean Ramis]

Before Pope Francis died, the biggest Catholic news of the week was going to be the canonization of the first millennial saint. We here today Explained we're on top of the news because we like to keep tabs on our millennials. But we were not nearly as on.

[Michael Digiovinay]

Top of it as this guy Michael digiovinay. I'm a professor of anthropology at Westchester University, and we spoke with Michael this morning.

[Sean Ramis]

There was a pizza box with a cartoon Pope Francis on it sitting right behind him.

[Michael Digiovinay]

Hey, you know, Philly people that we are, we are proud people. You know, I say we. I'm from North Jersey, so pizza is really important. So I wouldn't even call this pizza. But anyway, it's pizza boxes that says, welcome Pope Francis, Philadelphia 2015. There's a picture of the Pope waving in front of the skyline in Philadelphia. So.

[Sean Ramis]

All right, enough about the pizza. Onto the main event. The first millennial St. Carlo Kutis. Why was this kid so important to Pope Francis?

[Michael Digiovinay]

I think it was one of his big projects that he did. The idea emerged probably right as Pope Francis was becoming Pope. Carlo had died in 2006. Word was spread. I mean, what happens with these popular saints is that there is this grassroot movement that usually happens, and then when it gets really big, then the church kind of comes in and makes it official. So he was born in London to Italian parents who were. Who were business people. The father was in insurance, and the mom was in publishing. He was raised by nannies from, like, Ireland and Poland. So they were. They were the ones that were religious. The parents always said they didn't. They weren't really practicing Catholics. They weren't very religious. But somehow I guess that that religiosity, you know, passed through to him from. From his nannies who raised him. And he was already kind of seen as a kid, at least a lot of the stories go as somebody who is, who is very. Who was a religious but down to earth kid.

[Catherine Kaleidos]

And because, of course, he used to say, I have everything. I have a house, I have the love of my. My parents. I have all what I need. And these people are without anything. How can I be, you know, quite peaceful seeing this poorness?

[Michael Digiovinay]

So there's a story, of course, where this. He's getting maybe bullied in school, like a lot of teenagers, you know, suffer. So it's a very relatable story. And, you know, one of the nannies said, why don't you just, like, hit him back? Like, why don't you, you know, stick up for yourself? And. And he. And he said, well, Jesus wouldn't want me to do that. A lot of the stories emphasize the fact that he, you know, had some Straw. He loved Nutella and had struggles with his weight, you know, and self esteem is very, very relatable. He played Halo. So it's not like he's playing only, you know, he's playing the PlayStation, he's playing Pokemon in Halo.

[Sean Ramis]

He played Halo and now he's going to have a Halo.

[Michael Digiovinay]

Yeah, now he's going to have a Halo. There you go. But I mean it's not a very like religious game, right? I mean it's kind of a shoot up game sort of. But yes, he will have it. Hopefully he will have a Halo. I mean he is the saint of the Internet or he will be probably. And that's because he did use not only PlayStations but he was a computer programmer and he programmed some of the earliest online virtual exhibitions. One on eucharistic miracles, which are miracles that the bread that Catholics believe, not just that the bread is a symbolic of the host, but also that it actually is Jesus's body. And so he did this whole repository, this database that he made web pages for each of these. Back in the early 2000s he put that online and then Marian apparitions. So when Mary appears to people, he did a whole virtual exhibition on that.

[Sean Ramis]

To get a Halo, you gotta do a few miracles. Those who are familiar with the Catholic Church will know what were young Carlo's miracles.

[Michael Digiovinay]

There was a young boy, I think he was five years old, his name was Matthias, who had. He was born with an annular pancreas. And an annular pancreas means that the pancreas was wrapped around the intestine. And so it was very, very difficult for him to keep food down or to really get nourished. So he was getting malnourished not because he wasn't being fed enough, but because he had this pancreas problem. And so they took him there to venerate the, you know, to see the, the relic and to venerate. And the mom said, what do you, you know, what do you want to ask Carlo? What do you want to ask God through Carlo? And he said, I just don't want to vomit as much, I don't want to throw up as much. You know, that was his big thing. And it was very. People heard it, right? So it was verified that he said this in the presence of the relic. When he went home, apparently he ate a whole steak and french fries and didn't throw up. And, and he was. The pancreas looked normal and there's no medical explanation for it.

[Sean Ramis]

So a miraculous meal with that steak.

[Michael Digiovinay]

It was Steak, I mean, that's heavy duty.

[Sean Ramis]

What about the second miracle? Is there a second one?

[Michael Digiovinay]

There was a Costa Rican student, a girl who was studying in Florence, Italy, and had a bicycle accident, had a traumatic brain injury. It was very bad. And the mom came, and Florence is not so. So far from Assisi, where Carlo is buried. And she made it just about two hours away, and she made the trip to Assisi, prayed. At this. At this point in time, his body is on display for veneration. And that's really fascinating what, how he looks. And it's a really important part of his story. He's in jeans and Nikes and, you know, that kind of thing. Very, very relatable. And she prayed. The mom prayed in front of the sarcophagus. And when she got back to Florence, apparently her daughter was. Was awake. And, you know, inexplicably from that. So that was verified at the end of last year by Pope Francis, and he declared, okay, everything is set, and we're going to do this ceremony during the jubilee year. And unfortunately, he didn't last. But I know that that was a big. It's a big deal for him because, you know, this new saint really epitomizes all of the messaging that Pope Francis has done and that were kind of the reforms of the church.

[Sean Ramis]

How many new saints are there? How many did Pope Frank Francis sign off on?

[Michael Digiovinay]

There's a lot. He officially canonized 942 saints. Whoa, that's a lot. I do have to say that number sounds bigger than it is because 813 of those were actually one group of martyrs from the 1400s. So. But even if you take away, you know, you count that as one, that's still like 150, you know, saints for 12 years, you know, he did Mother Teresa, you know, at the beginning. He also did three popes. He did all the three modern popes. Pope John xxiii, who started Vatican ii, Pope Paul vi, who kind of concluded Vatican ii, and then Pope John Paul II as well. So, you know, those four are really huge saints. And then Carlo would have been the fifth. Really, you know, major kind of rock star kind of saints that people still remembered that they related to, that they had, you know, in their mind.

[Sean Ramis]

Yeah, you're talking about this kid in league with Mother Teresa and John Paul. Is he really that big a deal for the Catholic Church?

[Michael Digiovinay]

I think he is. And I think, you know, Mother Teresa is a great example more than Pope John Paul ii, because, you know, there are kind of two classes of these saints. The popular Saints. And then there's kind of the religious people, like popes and priests, who a lot of people don't really even identify with. But, you know, the church hierarchy kind of makes saints. But Pope John Paul II was very transcendent. I mean, he was. He was a rock star in his life. People thought he was, you know, a living saint at the time. It was very clear, you know, that he was. He really guided the church through, you know, communism and all of that. So he was really important. But Mother Teresa, I think, is more along the lines of who Carlo is and more along the lines of what the message of what saints should be that Francis gives us. Pope Francis had really change the church and kind of focused less on the pomp and circumstance and really double down on being humble, being, being merciful, giving to the poor, and to be, you know, just the best normal person that you can be.

[Sean Ramis]

And are we going to assume that one day Pope Francis himself will be a saint?

[Michael Digiovinay]

It would be something he would say that I don't need to be canonized to have been a model for good behavior. That being said, we'll have to see what people think in five years if they're going to open a cause, which I'm sure they are, to see whether he would be officially recognized as a saint. But I think his theology is such that you do not need the official prefix in front, you know, the saint in front, to be a saint next door, to be an everyday saint, to be a model to help other people. His theology would say that it doesn't matter.

[Sean Ramis]

Amen. Victoria Chamberlain and Navi Shayartzi made our show today. They had help from Amina Al Saadi, who Laura Bullard, Gabrielle Burbe, Andrea Christensdotter, Patrick Boyd and me. I'm Sean Ramis from this was new saint expl.