Elon Musk presents: Taxis

Summary

Today, Explained – Episode: Elon Musk presents: Taxis

Release Date: June 24, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Guest: Andrew Hawkins, Transportation Editor at The Verge

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1. Introduction: A Shaky Start in Starbase Texas

The episode opens with Sean Rameswaram recounting a recent incident at SpaceX's Starbase in Texas. A starship test went disastrously wrong, though fortunately, no humans were aboard the spacecraft. In contrast, Tesla’s robo taxis had a more promising but limited launch in Austin, Texas.

Sean Rameswaram [00:00]: "About a week ago there was a big boom in the United States, but you probably didn't hear. Went down in a tiny town called Starbase Texas..."

2. Tesla’s Limited Robo Taxi Deployment

Andrew Hawkins details Tesla's inaugural robo taxi service, which was rolled out on an invite-only basis to a small group of influencers. The fleet consists of Tesla Model Y vehicles branded with "Robo Taxi."

Andrew Hawkins [02:30]: "Tesla finally launched its long promised robo taxi service... It was by invite only. A very small group of Tesla influencers were invited to participate in this experiment."

Despite a smooth and quiet ride experience reported by some participants, the deployment is critically small, raising questions about Tesla's readiness for a broader driverless rollout.

Andrew Hawkins [03:05]: "It's riding extremely smoothly, really nicely, just very quiet, very comfortable."

3. Cost and Branding of Tesla Robo Taxis

The cost structure of Tesla’s robo taxis is highlighted, with a flat rate of $4.20 per ride, irrespective of the distance traveled. This pricing strategy appears more as a symbolic gesture amid mounting brand challenges.

Andrew Hawkins [04:30]: "The rides cost $4.20… $4.20 flat rate for every ride, no matter where you go."

The branding is minimalist, with "Robo Taxi" decals that are difficult to read, reflecting perhaps a rushed or tentative entry into the market.

4. Technological Approaches: Tesla vs. Waymo

A significant portion of the discussion contrasts Tesla’s camera-only approach to autonomous driving with Waymo’s multi-sensor strategy, which includes radar and lidar.

Andrew Hawkins [20:41]: "Waymo has multiple sensors on their vehicles. They have, in addition to cameras, they also use radar and lidar..."

This fundamental difference in technology impacts the reliability and safety of the autonomous systems, with Waymo currently perceived as being ahead in the race.

5. Market Competition and Position

The episode delves into the competitive landscape of the robo taxi market, spotlighting Waymo’s extensive testing and deployments across multiple cities, surpassing Tesla in both miles driven and safety transparency.

Andrew Hawkins [17:40]: "Waymo has driven over 7 million miles driverlessly... They're making partnerships with auto manufacturers like Hyundai and Zeekr."

Other players like Amazon’s Zoox and Volkswagen’s ID Buzz are also emerging, each bringing unique approaches to the autonomous vehicle market.

Sean Rameswaram [22:27]: "Zoox is owned by Amazon and they are building their own vehicles without steering wheels, without pedals to operate as a robo taxi service."

6. Brand Challenges and Elon Musk’s Influence

Tesla faces a significant brand crisis, exacerbated by Elon Musk’s controversial actions and public persona. Sales have dipped, and Tesla trails behind competitors like BYD.

Noel King [05:39]: "Tesla reported this morning that sales estimates have dropped 13% from last year."

Musk’s alignment with divisive figures and ventures has alienated a portion of Tesla’s customer base, directly impacting the company's market performance.

Andrew Hawkins [10:23]: "Elon Musk has been promising driverless vehicles... people seem to not like Elon Musk and the things that he's been doing... That's had resulted in a huge Brand crisis for Tesla."

7. Regulatory Landscape: State vs. Federal Standards

The regulatory environment remains fragmented, with each state enforcing its own rules regarding autonomous vehicles. Texas offers more lenient regulations compared to California, posing significant hurdles for broader deployment.

Andrew Hawkins [23:22]: "Each state has its own kind of regulatory system... In California, you need to apply for a series of permits before you can even begin to test driverlessly."

There are discussions around potential federal standards that could streamline regulations, but such changes remain uncertain.

8. Public Perception and Trust Issues

Safety concerns persist among the public, especially in light of Tesla’s history with Autopilot-related accidents. Incidents during the initial robo taxi deployment, such as vehicles driving on the wrong side of the road, have fueled skepticism.

Andrew Hawkins [06:37]: "Another was caught breaking hard in the middle of the street because it caught some stationary police vehicles... This is not a deployment ready to system, not even close."

Surveys indicate that most people still distrust autonomous technology, a sentiment that companies must address to achieve widespread adoption.

9. Future Outlook: Scaling Up and Overcoming Obstacles

Despite current setbacks, Elon Musk remains optimistic about aggressively scaling Tesla’s robo taxi fleet, aiming for thousands of vehicles in the near future and up to a million by the end of 2026. However, significant obstacles, including technological reliability, regulatory approvals, and public acceptance, must be overcome.

Andrew Hawkins [07:50]: "Elon Musk has said he has no intentions of going slow if everything goes well. According to him, we could see thousands of Tesla robotaxis on the road within a few months."

Comparatively, Waymo's methodical and partnership-driven approach positions it as a stronger contender in the autonomous vehicle space.

10. Societal Impact and Resistance to Technological Change

The episode concludes with a reflection on societal resistance to new technologies, drawing parallels to past disruptions like Uber’s entry into the transportation sector. While technological advancement appears unstoppable, it brings challenges such as job displacement and increased surveillance.

Andrew Hawkins [25:01]: "There will always be tension, but there does seem to be some element of it that's also inevitable... People have a lot of frustration about the role that tech is playing in society."

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Notable Quotes:

• Sean Rameswaram [00:00]: "About a week ago there was a big boom in the United States… testing its starship and things went horribly wrong."

• Andrew Hawkins [04:30]: "The rides cost $4.20… $4.20 flat rate for every ride, no matter where you go."

• Andrew Hawkins [20:41]: "Waymo has multiple sensors on their vehicles… They also use radar and lidar sensors."

• Andrew Hawkins [10:23]: "People seem to not like Elon Musk and the things that he's been doing… That's had resulted in a huge Brand crisis for Tesla."

• Andrew Hawkins [23:22]: "Each state has its own kind of regulatory system… In California, you need to apply for a series of permits before you can even begin to test driverlessly."

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This episode of "Today, Explained" offers an in-depth analysis of Tesla's ambitious yet challenged foray into the robo taxi market, juxtaposed against competitors like Waymo. It underscores the interplay between technological innovation, regulatory frameworks, brand perception, and societal acceptance, painting a comprehensive picture of the current state and future trajectory of autonomous transportation.

Transcript

[Sean Ramis]

About a week ago there was a big boom in the United States, but you probably didn't hear. Went down in a tiny town called Starbase Texas, population 500 or so. Home though of Elon Musk's SpaceX. On Wednesday night, the company was testing its starship and things went horribly wrong.

[Devin Schwartz]

Whoa, whoa. What that.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Who?

[Devin Schwartz]

Oh my God.

[Sean Ramis]

Luckily no one was in that spaceship, but there are real humans riding in Musk's Tesla robo taxis. Those had a relatively more successful launch in Texas on Sunday. But we're gonna ask if Tesla's really ready for driverless vehicles on Today Explained.

[Noel King]

Support for Today Explained comes from Addio. Adeo is an AI native customer relationship management platform that Addeo says is built for the next era of companies. A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, sinks in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data. Addeo says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real time reports, those powerful automations we which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company. You can go to adeo.comtodayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's a T T I O.comtodayexplained Support.

[Devin Schwartz]

For this show comes from WhatsApp. The personal chat on WhatsApp is a place where you share everything, from the mundane connections to the memories that mean everything. It's a place that can truly feel like it's your own. And WhatsApp makes sure everything stays protected from outside eyes, even theirs. No one, not even WhatsApp can see or hear your personal messages. That includes personal calls, plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.

[Noel King]

You're listening to.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Today Explained.

[Sean Ramis]

Big weekend for war, Andrew, but also for your beat, which is the automotive industry. Tell people who weren't paying attention to this. Basically everyone but you, what happened.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So yeah, it was a long time coming, but Tesla finally launched its long promised robo taxi service. Huge asterisk on that, which is that it was by invite only. A very small group of Tesla influencers were invited to participate in this experiment. So for everyone watching the video, this.

[Devin Schwartz]

Is my first nighttime ride in a.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Tesla Model Y roller taxi. It's riding extremely smoothly, really nicely, just very quiet, very comfortable. If I wasn't recording, I would have been banging some Metallica right now. It was about maybe 10 or 20 cars. It's not entirely clear how many. And within a Very small area of Austin. Austin, Texas. But they did it.

[Noel King]

We did it, Joe.

[Andrew Hawkins]

They actually. They deployed a robo taxi service.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, so they deployed a service. It sounds like it was a very small and asterisk deployment, but they did it.

[Andrew Hawkins]

We did it.

[Sean Ramis]

Joe, what do these things look like? Is it an exciting new line of vehicles?

[Andrew Hawkins]

No, they're basically just Tesla Model Ys, but they have Robo taxi branding on the side of the vehicle in that kind of weird Tesla font that Elon Musk seems to be very much a fan of. It's kind of like cyberpunky graffiti. Ish. You would have to look twice to actually read what it says. But yeah, it says Robo taxi right there on the side.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay. Richest man in the world launches new line of robo taxis with like a goofy decal.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Basically, yeah, basically. Basically.

[Sean Ramis]

How much does a ride cost in a Tesla Robo taxi?

[Andrew Hawkins]

It brings me no happiness to report that the rides cost $4.20.

[Devin Schwartz]

$4.20 flat rate for every ride, no.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Matter where you go.

[Sean Ramis]

RIP420 jokes, we're calling it Stick a fork in them. Tell us more about the expectations here for Tesla and what they've been trying to do with Robo taxis for some time now, I believe.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't think it's an overstatement to say that the stakes are huge for Tesla in this moment. Elon Musk has been promising driverless vehicles since about as long as I've been covering the company, which is almost 10 years now. We're probably only a month away from having autonomous driving, at least for highways and for relatively simple roads. And every time he promises it, he says that's about two years in 2015, that's about two years. 2016. Two years. It kept being two years away and it became kind of like a joke, right? That it was always going to be this two years away thing and never actually delivered, but now they're actually delivering. And I think it's because of sort of all that's been going on with Tesla lately, which if maybe you've been paying attention to the news, you've noticed that brand is not doing so hot.

[Noel King]

Tesla reported this morning that sales estimates have dropped 13% from last year.

[Andrew Hawkins]

For the first time ever, BYD crossed the $100 billion mark, raking in about $10 billion more than Tesla. Competition is up. But also, people seem to not like Elon Musk and the things that he's been doing for Donald Trump and Doge. And that's had resulted in a huge Brand crisis for Tesla, which is also affecting the company's business. So I think what we're seeing right now is a move out of desperation. Tesla needed to deliver something. It couldn't just push this one out for another two years.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, and these robo taxi Teslas have been on the streets of Austin for two days now. How's it gone in these two days?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, I think it's been a mixed bag. There have been a couple videos that have surfaced showing the Tesla vehicles behaving strangely. One was driving on the wrong side of the road briefly.

[Sean Ramis]

Yikes.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Noel King]

Are you kidding me? It's scary as hell.

[Andrew Hawkins]

That is a super easy scenario with clear marking, great weather, et cetera.

[Noel King]

And the car still made huge mistakes.

[Andrew Hawkins]

And could have easily caused an accident. This is not a deployment ready to system, not even close.

[Sean Ramis]

If a human taxi driver drove like that, I'd stop them and say, let me out now and report them to the cab company.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Another was caught breaking hard in the middle of the street because it caught some stationary police vehicles on the side of the road that weren't directly in its path.

[Sean Ramis]

Silly robot.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So clearly, like, you know, just within the first couple of days, some incidents are coming up. And you know, we have to sort of take that into account with the Tesla's history, which is, you know, there have been at least 58 people that have been killed in Tesla vehicles using Autopilot.

[Sean Ramis]

Wow.

[Andrew Hawkins]

A couple of deaths involving the full self driving technology, that same technology that's underpinning these driverless robo taxis. So I think there's a sense from safety advocates and from some regulators that they'd like Tesla to go a lot slower here in terms of rolling this technology out. But Elon Musk has said he has no intentions of going slow if everything goes well. According to him, we could see thousands of Tesla robotaxis on the road within a few months. Potentially a million by the end of 2026, as he said.

[Sean Ramis]

What does the ramp up look like in theory? You're saying this weekend they launched like a dozen or two cars in Austin with like a limited range. What does the step by step process of getting to a million look like, just even in theory?

[Andrew Hawkins]

So they have to broaden their, their, their service area, the geofence that the cars operate in. So that means, you know, starting small and then slowly expanding out from there, adding more cars to the fleet, bringing more customers in. Right now it's just invite only, but they'll eventually have to open that up to the public to let you know Just basically anybody who can download the app, use, use the service, they're going to have to launch in additional cities. And Musk has said he wants to bring this to Robo Taxis, to Los Angeles, to San Francisco, San Antonio and Texas. The difference there, though, is that California has much more rigid regulations around autonomous vehicles than Texas does. Basically, you just show up with like proof of insurance in Texas and you can do whatever you want. In California, you need to apply for a series of permits before you can even begin to test driverlessly or invite passengers in your vehicles. So that'll be a huge obstacle for them. But if they can get over those obstacles, and then more importantly, if he can convince his bff, Donald Trump, to pass some sort of national standard that maybe even supersedes a lot of these state level rules, then he can start rolling out cars without steering wheels, without pedals, like the cyber cab that they introduced last year. Year. That's the real. That's the real money maker for him because he'll be making the cars, selling them to regular people. They'll be able to add their vehicles to a Robotaxi network. It'll work sort of like Uber slash Airbnb, where your car is out picking up people at night while you're at home asleep. And that would be a huge. That's what he's always promised with this. Right. You know that that's not the same thing that they rolled out on Sunday, which was obviously a very limited service. We're talking grand, much grander scaled compared to what was rolled out on Sunday. It's not clear that they're gonna be able to get there within the next year, two years. I mean, it could be even a decade before they get to that point.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, funny. You bring this back to like Donald Trump and the BFF thing. And obviously Elon Musk started out the year playing like a very prominent role in the US Federal government bureaucracy. How much did that work there? And his very controversial tenure, how much does that affect the future of his perhaps most prominent company, at least for the average American consumer?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Well, I think he's in effect made himself one of the least popular people in America right now. So I think that that's, if anything, you know, no other company that I can think of in my mind is as closely tied to their CEO as Tesla is. Right? Tesla is Elon Musk. Elon Musk is Tesla. And there' really no daylight between the two. So people who don't like Elon Musk, don't like him sort of tromping through the federal government, firing people, canceling humanitarian aid, canceling science contracts, grant research. All these things that Doge has been doing can register their dislike of him by not buying a Tesla, selling their Tesla if they own one, protesting outside of a Tesla dealership. There's all of these things that they can do to really kind of send the signal to the wider world about how angry people are at Elon Musk. Musk. And I think that that's been a huge brand crisis for the company. And we've seen it reflected in their. In their revenue, in their sales numbers, their deliveries. It's just, you know, it's clear that, that, that, that has had an enormous backfire on Tesla. And I think it's probably a pretty prominent reason why Musk decided to very publicly step down from Doge.

[Sean Ramis]

And perhaps most easily, if you really hate Elon Musk and Tesla, but you still want to ride around in a robo taxi, you can just take a waymo.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Exactly.

[Sean Ramis]

And we can talk to you about that when we're back on today. Explained foreign.

[Noel King]

Comes from NPR's Planet Money. In order to exist in the world in 2025, you do need to understand something of economics. They didn't tell me to say that. That is something that I actually do believe. But Econ, you may think, is boring and convoluted and complex and dull even. And the truth of the matter is, I'm not gonna lie to you, it can be. The point at Planet Money, which has a very strong sort of mission statement, is that they would like you to stick with them. They want you to understand the economy for your own good. And so they make it really interesting. Their episodes go through many, many, many, many, many edits to make sure that what's happening is clear to you, the listener. I've been in those edits. I used to work for Planet Money. It is a lift. In past episodes, the team launched a satellite, ran a record label. We bought a bunch of barrels of.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oil.

[Noel King]

We made a T shirt, created a comic book, shorted the stock market, bought a toxic asset. A lot of work and thought goes into making those series and episodes. And you come out at the other end of listening, you're like, oh, I understand what a toxic asset is. I understand what it means for the economy. You can find me in the archives, just visit the website search for Noel King. You can tune into Planet Money every week for entertaining stories and insights about how money shapes our world. These are stories that really can't be found anywhere else. Listen now to Planet Money from NPR Support for TODAY explained comes from upwork. Upwork says hiring can be stressful, but it shouldn't stress you out that much. Upwork can be a one stop shop to find, hire and pay top freelance talent all in one place. Upwork says companies at every stage turn to them to find top talent in it. Web, dev, AI, design, admin, support, marketing. So much more. Plus they say posting a job on Upwork is easy. No cost to join. You can browse freelancer profiles. You can get help drafting a job post, book a consultation. From there you connect with freelancers that get you Upwork makes the entire process easier, simpler and more affordable. According to upwork. With industry low fees, you can post a job today and hire tomorrow with Upwork. According to Upwork, you can visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com.

[Sean Ramis]

Support for today explained comes from Vanta if I could automate 90% of one task in my life, oh no, they are putting me on this spot. Oh I like most of the tasks I do. What do I not like? I guess I wouldn't take the trash out. I don't like the alley behind my my house. Maybe if I had a robot I would have them go into the alley behind my house and take out the trash and then pick out some of the trash that's already in that alley because other people aren't doing their fair share in the neighborhood anyway. Vanta says they're a trust management platform that helps businesses automate up to 90% of the work for in demand security frameworks like SOC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more. Go to vanta.com explain to meet with a Vanta expert about your business needs. That's vanta.com explain today explained is back with Andrew Hawkins from the Verge. Andrew Tesla's robo taxis aren't arriving in a vacuum. That's Dyson's business. We've been covering robo taxis for a minute now. We spoke to you about them way back in August of 2023.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So we've been told, I think for a number of years that self driving cars are coming. They're gonna take over our roads. We're not gonna have any human powered vehicles at all in the future.

[Sean Ramis]

But the future happens fast. What's happened since then? What does the current market look like for robo taxis?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, it's been really fascinating. Within the last couple years, Waymo has really kind of exploded out of the gate and become the kind of predominant robo taxi business in America. This is a company that spun out of Google many years ago, started operating in Phoenix, then expanded to San Francisco. In Los Angeles, they recently are now also in Austin, which is where Tesla is obviously banking a lot of hopes for its robo taxi service. And then they're gonna be expanding to a bunch of other cities before the end of the year. They've said that they're gonna be launching in Atlanta, Miami, Washington, D.C. i see.

[Sean Ramis]

Them all around town, but there's always someone in the front seat.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Exactly. So that's the phase that they're in right now. They're in that testing phase that takes place over a couple months. Soon they'll be pulling people out of the cars, testing driverlessly. Then they'll invite people to come be sort of early testers vehicles, and then it will open to the wider public. And I think that that's sort of like how you can sort of take the two companies and look at them side by side. Waymo, I think, is just years ahead of where Tesla is right now.

[Sean Ramis]

And how are they doing?

[Andrew Hawkins]

I mean, it seems like they're doing great. They've driven over 7 million miles driverlessly, I think so far over the last few years. They've been very transparent about their safety statistics. They've been sharing data with the public, publishing articles and peer reviewed journals, sort of holding their technology up against human drivers to show how their vehicles can operate more safely than human driven ones are. They're bringing in revenue for Alphabet. Not profitable, I think at any stretch, but still that's money that they can put away. They're making partnerships with auto manufacturers to bring the technology to different types of vehicles. So they're going to be rolling out Hyundai electric, Hyundai vehicles pretty soon, that that's going to be added to the fleet as well as zeekr, which is a Chinese manufacturer. And so I think it's on the, on all levels. Waymo is really just kind of like checking all the boxes right now. I think that they still have some issues to deal with when it comes to sort of public acceptance and public trust of driverless vehicles. But you talk to anybody who's ridden in one of these cars they love. Honestly, I feel way safer in here than with a stranger in their car. So I'm mad about it. I'm, I'm a big fan. Let's pop some good music on.

[Noel King]

Okay, team, we've nearly arrived.

[Sean Ramis]

This was so fun.

[Andrew Hawkins]

One more minute left of the journey. Bye. Wayo. It's cool. They can post photos of themselves, right? It's interesting, it's novel. I mean, like, this is like what the future is to people, right? Driving around in a vehicle with no one in the front seat. Like that's the stuff from like, you know, Total Recall and like Minority Report and like all these sci fi films like that. Everything else seems like it's burning and collapsing around us. But that does seem to be kind of like representative of this imagined future that we all thought we'd have.

[Sean Ramis]

What are the limitations then at this point? Is there still just the issue that people don't trust these things?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, I think I've seen a number of surveys that have done that says that most people still don't trust the technology. And I think that's just sort of a reflection of the limited rollout of Waymo, right? Only in four cities right now, possibly five pretty soon. The vast majority of people that you talk to out on the, on the street have never ridden in a Waymo. They're restricted to a geofenced area in the markets that they operate. They don't operate on the highways, they don't go to the airport, except in Phoenix, where they've been for a number of years way longer than they have most of their other markets. And those are huge, huge limitations because if you think about how most people use Uber or Lyft, it's to take a car to the airport, right? It's mostly business travel and therefore that's a huge chunk of revenue that Waymo is just not realizing at this moment. I think once they open up the highways, open up to the airports, you're going to start to see a much different service in terms of revenue for this company.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, so Waymo is on its way. Why is Tesla so far behind?

[Andrew Hawkins]

I think for a couple reasons. First of all, you've got a different approach to the technology, right? So Waymo has multiple sensors on their vehicles. They have, in addition to cameras, they also use radar and lidar sensors. Sensors which are lasers that are sent out and create like a 3D map of the immediate environment around the vehicle, which then can be used to make decisions, right? So if they, if someone darts out in front of the vehicle, right, they'll have an easier time seeing them than if it was just a camera that was detecting that person. Tesla is just camera only. Tesla used to use radar for a long time, but then Elon Musk decided that that was Too expensive. And that lidar is way too expensive. So he wanted to just rely on cameras. Lighter is lame. Damn. But then that means that there's just no, there's no. There's not enough redundancy in the sensor data that Tesla is taking in. So it's more prone to make mistakes, especially in situations in which cameras aren't well equipped to view the world around them. For example, there's sunlight blasting into the camera, or it's a low light situation at night. You're not going to be able to see as much as potentially as Waymo's vehicles are. So there's a different technological approach. Also, Waymo is more interested in making partnerships. They have a partnership with Uber. Its vehicles are available exclusively on Uber's app in Austin, for example. Tesla wants to go it alone. They want to build their own app, they want to build their own vehicles, they want to do all these things vertically integrated. Whereas Waymo has shown more of an ability to kind of spread out some of those costs, which I think is why there's just so much far ahead than Tesla is.

[Sean Ramis]

And of course, these aren't the only two players in this market. Are there other companies of note here?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, so there's a company called Zoox.

[Sean Ramis]

Zoox.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Zoox. Gadzooks. Gadzooks.

[Sean Ramis]

I'm tired, Andrew.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Same man, same. So, yeah, Zoox is owned by Amazon and they are building their own vehicles without steering wheels, without pedals to operate as a robo taxi service. Those are at work in San Francisco and in Las Vegas. And then Volkswagen also is getting into the game. They've got their new electric ID Buzz that they're going to be bringing to Los Angeles as part of a robo taxi service.

[Sean Ramis]

The ID buzz is that van. That one makes me less tired. I think it's cute.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, it's super cute. It's a great car. I really enjoyed it when I got to test it.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay, so there's some other players here. Changes are afoot. What does regulation look like? How are we ensuring that we do this safely from, like, I don't know, a governmental perspective.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah. So it's pretty much a patchwork situation right now. Each state has its own kind of regulatory system. You know, the federal government regulates cars. Right. And what's safe about a car? What cars need to have before they can be sold to customers. While the states are allowed. Are relegated to regulating drivers under the Republican government and Congress and Donald Trump, they've talked about wanting to sort of standardize everything, make it easier for States to allow or disallow companies from testing on their streets, but also to sort of lift regulations on what types of vehicles are allowed to be deployed and to be sold to people. So right now, if you try to sell a car that doesn't have a steering wheel, you're capped at a certain number. Right. You can get exemptions from the government. The government might not give you those exemptions, but if they do, you can only sell 2,500 of those steering wheel less vehicles. Under a new system, that cap could rise significantly. You could see tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of fully driverless, level four style vehicles. No steering wheel, no pedals, no way for humans to control it at all. That's kind of like the end point. I still think we're a number of years away from that, but that is something that's potentially in the future.

[Sean Ramis]

I had a friend who enjoyed like dismantling bird scooters in Los Angeles when they first showed up. We saw Waymos being lit up there a few weekends ago. People are mad that we're inexorably marching towards a new technological era and, you know, they don't feel bought in. Is that tension gonna slow down the inevitability of this robo taxi takeover?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, I think that there will always be tension, but there does seem to be some element of it that's also inevit. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Uber first came on the scene and a bunch of like French taxi drivers got together and like burned a bunch of cars on like the highway in France.

[Sean Ramis]

Yeah.

[Andrew Hawkins]

You know that there was, there's always these types of responses, I feel, to new technology. Your friend who's dismantling the scooters, they also were getting thrown into lakes and rivers and set on fire. You know, I think that people have a lot of frustration about the role that tech is playing in society, especially when they are lacking in basic services like health care and food and decent housing. So there is a sense that, like, why are we being provided these shiny new toys when we still have these, like, these basic things about daily life that are so hard and such a struggle. So I do think that that's something that the companies certainly need to reckon with. I've seen Waymo say that, you know, they're trying to work with community groups to try to sort of soften the blow a little bit when they are introduced into a new market. You know, work with like, like disability rights advocates and other folks that have mobility issues. But I think it's hard for, you know, for a lot of people to look at these vehicles and say this is not gonna, this is just gonna result in lost jobs and displacement and more gentrification and more surveillance and big tech taking over our lives. That said, I don't, I don't know if you can stop the tech. I think it still marches ahead.

[Sean Ramis]

Tech gunna tech.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Tech gunna tech.

[Sean Ramis]

Andrew Hawkins, the Verge thank you so much.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Thanks John. Always a pleasure.

[Sean Ramis]

Andrew is transportation editor at the Verge. He covers electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles, ride sharing services like Uber and Lyft, public transit policy infrastructure, electric bikes, and the physical act of moving through space and time. I'm Sean Ramis from Devin Schwartz made our show today. Amina Al Saadi edited Laura Bullard and Denise Guerra were on fax. Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter were on the mix. And none of this would have been possible were it not for Breakmaster Cylinder. Noel King Executive Producer Miranda Kennedy Deputy EP Jolie Myers, Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mwagdi Miles Bryan, Victoria Chamberlain, Peter Balanon Rosen and Gabrielle Burbait. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc and if you do not like the ads have we mentioned you cannot listen to the ads by becoming a member? Go to vox.com members if that appeals to you and thank you.

[Miranda Kennedy]

Support for this show comes from Salesforce Today. Every team has more work to do than resources available, but digital labor is here to help. Agentforce, the powerful AI from Salesforce, provides a limitless workforce of AI agents for every department built into your existing workflows and your trusted customer data. AgentForce can analyze, decide and execute tasks autonomously, letting you and your employees save time and money to focus on the bigger picture, like moving your business forward. Agentforce what AI was meant to be learn [e-mail] Agentforce.

[Noel King]

Bring the Sabor with Modelo Chelada, a mouth watering mix of authentic Mexican beer, bold fruit flavors and spices. Bring the heat with Sandia Picante or the citrus burst of Limonizal. Modelo Chalada Bring the Sabor drink responsibly. Modelo Chelada flavored beers imported by Crown Imports, Chicago, Illinois.