Fantasy draft: 2028 presidential race

Summary

Today, Explained – “Fantasy draft: 2028 presidential race” (August 1, 2026)
Hosts: Ested Herndon, Kara Swisher, Don Lemon

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Overview of the Episode

The episode centers on a lively and insightful “fantasy draft” of potential 2028 US presidential candidates. Host Ested Herndon is joined by journalist Kara Swisher and commentator Don Lemon. Together, they take turns “drafting” picks of likely Republican and Democratic presidential nominees, discussing the viability, charisma, and political prospects of a colorful roster of insiders and outsiders. The draft game format prompts sharp, unscripted opinions on the state of US politics, key party dynamics, and the evolving meaning of electability in a post-Trump era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Setup: Why a Fantasy Draft for 2028?

• Ested Herndon frames 2028 as “our messiest presidential campaign yet,” with both parties expected to have truly open contests for the first time since 2016.
• The group aims to answer:
  • Who are the most likely people to be presidential nominees?
  • Which names should be taken seriously?

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2. The Republican Fantasy Draft

Draft Format: Each participant picks four potential GOP nominees. Banter, reasoning, and critique accompany each selection.

Notable Picks & Debate

Kara Swisher’s Picks

• Marco Rubio (First overall pick)
  • “He has all the charm of a wet towel, but I think he's the safest choice.” (05:14)
  • Rubio seen as an “old school Republican” with just enough MAGA credibility.
• RFK Jr.
  • “I can't stand him, but I think he's appealing. I think he's a Kennedy. He's got a thing.” (09:53)
• Ivanka Trump
  • “She's daddy's favorite and also I think has some appeal... I remember being in Georgia suburbs, and there were rabid Ivanka fans.” (13:32–14:11)
• Marjorie Taylor Greene
  • Seen as an “anti” candidate for the MAGA wing; possible resurgence if she loses in the midterms.

Don Lemon’s Picks

• Tucker Carlson
  • “He has a platform... and he has great influence among Republicans and the MAGA folks.” (06:33)
  • Noted for his chameleon quality: “He's trying to appeal to moderates, independents, and perhaps Democrats right now.” (07:03)
• Thomas Massie
  • Praised for credibility among independents due to leading on the Epstein files. (11:03)
• Glenn Youngkin
• (Later, substitution for earlier picks due to confusion over team composition; Ted Cruz appears in the summary, but in the transcript, the four seem to be Carlson, Massie, Cruz, Youngkin)

Ested Herndon’s Picks

• JD Vance
  • “This is not a bet on J.D. Vance's personal charisma, but he has a foot in both worlds... most likely Trump endorsement and support.” (08:20)
  • Others disagree: “Vance is an empty vessel.” (Kara, 08:09)
• Donald Trump
  • “This is not a crazy thing... the likelihood of a third run, not zero.” (12:20)
• Brian Kemp
  • “There is a universal agreement about his competence among Republicans and others.” (15:15)
• Sarah Huckabee Sanders
  • “I think there is a sleeper desire for newness and sameness.” (17:11-17:38)

Other Names Discussed

• Donald Trump Jr., Ron DeSantis: Discussed but not picked.
• Notable exclusion: No Black or non-white picks—jokingly noted by Kara (18:24).

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3. The Democratic Fantasy Draft

Same format: Each picks four likely Democratic contenders.

Kara Swisher’s Picks

• Gavin Newsom
  • Considered the white guy frontrunner: “Leader of the pack in the white guy primary.” (22:17)
• Mark Cuban
  • “Reasonable, willing to work across party lines… doing this cost plus drug thing… genuine.” (26:29)
• Gina Raimondo
  • Noted as a strong VP possibility: “She’s managing this sort of can-do spirit like the CHIPS act, the infrastructure bill.” (29:47)
• J.B. Pritzker
  • “He’s incredibly well spoken, rich as can be… very pro-business and at the same time, very good at pushback.” (34:11)

Don Lemon’s Picks

• AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez)
  • “Energy in the Democratic Party is on the progressive side… she’s smart, she’s pretty, she’s great on social media, great communicator.” (23:28)
• Wes Moore
  • “He’s brilliant, he has a good heart, he’s handsome, and people really like him.” (27:16)
• Don Lemon himself
  • Presents case for outsider, Black, gay, independent: “People are tired of corporate Democrats… They want something new and different.” (30:51)
• George Clooney
  • “He’s very politically engaged, philanthropic, has just enough celebrity… everyone is going to pay attention.” (35:18)

Ested Herndon’s Picks

• Kamala Harris
  • Chosen for her strong recognition and potential with Black voters: “Speak to the moderate base… but [she] would be as an anti establishment outsider.” (24:39)
• Jon Ossoff
  • Appeal among women and Black voters: “Ladies vote. Black women love him. They call him Senator Maibu.” (28:55)
• Josh Shapiro
  • “There is an opportunity, particularly if we see a split electorate among the AOCs and Kamala Harris and everyone else.” (32:45)
• Raphael Warnock
  • “With that Black evangelical tradition and others, there's a lot of ways they can go… being the pastor of Ebenezer gives you some leeway.” (36:05)

Notable Discussion Points

• Electability & Identity:
  • "The impact of 2016 and 2024 is so clear... people and donors have told me they're going to back a white guy." (Don, 22:06)
  • "He has a diversity issue... harder to win over black Latino votes. Huge in the Democratic primary." (Kara on Buttigieg, 23:14–23:16)
  • “Why mess up your beautiful life?” (on outsiders like Swisher, Clooney, Cuban running) (43:15)
• Outsiders & Celebrity:
  • Picks like Mark Cuban and George Clooney underscore the appetite for “newness and difference.”

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4. Reflections & Big Takeaways

Key Themes Summed Up by the Hosts

• Republican Uncertainty:

  • “There isn't a person on that board I would not vote for on the Democratic side. And so that gives me a little bit more hope about 2028.” (Kara, 39:14)
  • “People want to put Trump in the rearview mirror... I think people are going to want something totally different.” (Don, 39:22)
  • “Centrality of divisions like Israel and AI feel like a real fault line with so many of these candidates.” (Ested, 41:15)

• Electability, Representation, and Risks:

  • “I hate that we have to have a conversation about, can a Jewish person be president?” (Kara, 41:46)
  • “Now is there someone, anyone up there... that you would say shouldn’t run?” — Harris is cited as perhaps a tough fit for the current moment given the hunger for anti-establishment vibes. (42:09–42:57)

• Media Savvy and “Newness”:

  • Digital prowess increasingly essential: “Someone who is on social media... that's why I worry about Kamala Harris. I don't think she takes enough risks in that.” (Kara, 39:46)
  • “Whoever can take a risk.... There's very few good at it in the Republican Party.” (Don, 40:13)

• The Electability Trap:

  • Recalling Obama’s rise in 2008 as a counter to the “white guy” narrative: “People said the same thing with Barack Obama, right? And then he won, and they're like, oh, shit.” (Kara, 41:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump Running Again:

  • “I think biology is undefeated. He's too old. 100%.” (Don, 13:06)

• On outsider picks:

  • “He's my hall pass. But no, I think, look, he's [Clooney] very politically engaged. He's very philanthropic. He has a very accomplished wife who actually should be running for President of the United States.” (Kara, 35:27)

• On the lack of Black candidates in the GOP field:

  • “I'm so glad you guys went with diversity. Look at all the black people up there.” (Kara, 18:24)

• On media skills as necessary for future contenders:

  • “Digital is gonna be extremely important. Someone who is on social media can go from a podcast to a social media to a debate…” (Kara, 39:37)

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Important Timestamps

• Opening & Draft Explanation: 00:00 – 04:43
• Republican Draft Begins: 05:03
• Rubio, Vance, RFK Jr., Massie, etc., discussed: 05:03 – 18:24
• Reflection on the Republican slate: 18:24
• Democratic Draft Introduction: 20:22 – 22:17
• Newsom, AOC, Harris, Cuban, Ossoff, Moore, etc., discussed: 22:17 – 37:10
• Reflections, Surprises, and Takeaways: 37:10 – 44:00

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Final Reflections

• The draft exercise highlights the unsettled nature of both parties as the 2028 race approaches.
• Celebrity and outsider statuses are more viable than ever.
• Demographic and cultural divides—race, religion, digital literacy—remain pivotal.
• Despite surface cynicism, the hosts express a kind of hope that the next cycle will surface talent and leadership fitting a transformational political moment.

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Overall Tone

Playful, candid, but grounded in sharp political insight. The guests' personal preferences, media experience, and skepticism about political orthodoxy infuse the conversation throughout.

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This summary should serve as a thorough guide for anyone seeking insight into the episode’s substance, surprises, and the broader context shaping the 2028 presidential sweepstakes.

Transcript

[Ested Herndon]

Presidential races are always messy, but 2028 is shaping up to be our messiest presidential campaign yet. It's poised to be the first open contest for the presidential race for both parties since 2016. And already there are a ton of names who are rumored to be thinking about throwing their name in the mix. People like AOC Kamala Harris or outsiders like George Clooney, who of course made his mark in the last Democratic presidential campaign with that op ed calling for Biden to drop out. And on the Republican side, Of course, there's J.D. vance. But what about Marco Rubio, Marjorie Taylor Greene? Or if Donald Trump runs again? So today I wanted to host a little fantasy draft. I'm going to start cutting out some of the faces who are most likely to be selected. Now, I do think that outsiders are a good choice to be on this list. I also think that you got to have candidates that speak to the black base. Kamala Harris, Wes Moore, imperfect circles. We have Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and even some of the Trump heirs, like Donald Trump Jr. And to help me draft, I wanted to invite two of the messiest people I know. Said with love, of course, Vox podcaster and journalist Kara Swisher and independent journalist and political commentator Don Lemon. They're going to help me sort through two important questions. Who are the most likely people to be the presidential nominees in 2028? And when? And what name should you take seriously? Let's dig in.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Ested Herndon]

Can Europe defend itself without America? And what is Ukraine's path to victory? I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan. And we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, Polish Deputy Prime Minister Radek Sikorski joins the show to break down the shifting transatlantic alliance. And what comes next in Ukraine? China, unlike us, actually could force Russia to end the war. But my guess is that China, the war suits China just fine. The episode's out now. Search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to our 2028 presidential campaign fantasy draft. I'm happy to have my guest here. Kara Swisser and Don Lemons. Y' all want to know a secret?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Ested Herndon]

I invited you because I thought this might be a messy presidential campaign, so why not invite the messiest queens I know?

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my God.

[Ested Herndon]

Excuse me, Estate. Excuse me. Listen, this is. That's an odd. That's a. That's a title you should carry.

[Don Lemon]

There's also one presidential candidate here, too.

[Ested Herndon]

Ah, listen, maybe you're gonna announce two on this show. Maybe we'll get two. This is a show that is focused to charting America's political future after Donald Trump, and you cannot do that without 2028 presidential candidates. To this point, we've been focused on policies, issues, trends across the midterms. But now it's time to talk about people, and we're gonna do that with a little bit of a high stakes game now. We're gonna have a fantasy draft. Have either of y' all played fantasy sports? Cause for queens, that's a little straight boy crazy.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's a gay man and a gay woman. Like, what do you mean, a gay

[Don Lemon]

woman who hates sports? So go ahead.

[Ested Herndon]

So we'll explain this for the uninitiated. We're gonna each choose a draft pick, and the goal would be to make a team that is the most likely to have the 2028 presidential nominee or maybe just someone generally on the ticket on your team. Now, we'll all get four selections, and then at the end, we're going to look at each other's teams and think, who do we think has the most likely group of four that will include a member of the president?

[Kara Swisher]

Can we just grab.

[Ested Herndon]

No, no, no, no, no. They're steps friends now.

[Don Lemon]

Don't. Don't think about it.

[Ested Herndon]

Now we have to decide who goes first. So we made a little bucket. We're going to pick one of these three shovels, and they'll have an order about 1, 2, or 3, and we'll figure out who's going first in terms of our selection.

[Don Lemon]

We not just have physical throwdown. Cause I'd win.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my.

[Ested Herndon]

I would actually just concede. So you know, you're right.

[Don Lemon]

All right.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Okay.

[Don Lemon]

All right, let's do it.

[Ested Herndon]

You can choose first, though. Number one. How dare you, as always. Oh, see, I got the shaft. I got that. 3.

[Don Lemon]

Let me just say again.

[Ested Herndon]

Listen, look at this. You just.

[Kara Swisher]

We're number one.

[Don Lemon]

I'm taking this guy.

[Ested Herndon]

Also, we have our first draft pick selection. Kara Swisher is selecting Marco Rubio with the first pick in our 2028 fantasy draft. Tell me why we had.

[Don Lemon]

Well, he has all the charm of a wet towel, but I think he's the safest choice. And I think Donald Trump is veering towards him.

[Ested Herndon]

That's an interesting first because of course it means you're betting that there's some rift that emerges between Trump and Vance. That might.

[Kara Swisher]

But I think there's a rift already emerging between Trump and Vance. And I think that Rubio wore the shoes better.

[Ested Herndon]

The mandated Trump shoes.

[Kara Swisher]

He wore them best. But I would think out of. He is. He is the bonafides. Right? Or bonafides. However you want to. However you want to pronounce it Qualified ish. He's qualified ish to be president. He's definitely the most qualified. He's the most qualified person. I believe on the.

[Ested Herndon]

I hear all of what y' all are saying. I sometimes think Marco Rubio is kind of like a Democrat's version of Republicans, though. Like, I wonder if Marco Rubio's willingness for foreign intervention or even advocacy for things like Cuba or Venezuela are things that are popular among Republicans versus something he was just able to convince Donald Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

But he's an old school Republican.

[Don Lemon]

He's an old school. Remember, he was on the immigration gang.

[Ested Herndon]

He was before he abandoned it. He definitely was.

[Don Lemon]

But that shows his lack of, you know, he's like a. What's one of those? Spatchcocked. He's spatchcocked.

[Ested Herndon]

All right. All right, Don, you're up.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna say this looks like Tucker Carlson, but I'm gonna say Tucker Carlson.

[Ested Herndon]

He's saying Tucker Carlson. That is the second name selected in our fantasy draft. Let us add it to the list. Now tell me why you're choosing Tucker Carlson.

[Kara Swisher]

Because he has a platform. And in this day and age, you need name recognition. A platform helps someone who is social media and digital media savvy. He has all of that. And he has great influence among Republicans and the MAGA folks. Even though he's criticiz president right now, they still like him. He still has clout. He is still drafting off of the Fox News fumes when he was very pro Trump.

[Ested Herndon]

He has the MAGA credibility while also kind of creating his own lane.

[Don Lemon]

He's also a chameleon.

[Kara Swisher]

I was just gonna say that. He also has. He's trying to appeal to moderates, independents, and perhaps Democrats right now. And it appears to me to Be extremely obvious he's doing it. Yeah, but some people think there's a subtlety there. I don't think it's subtle.

[Don Lemon]

Often you listen to him or her recently, that's Marjorie Taylor Greene and you go that makes sense. But then you're like, wait a minute,

[Ested Herndon]

are we talking specifically because of his criticism about US relationship with Israel in Iran war? Is that where Tucker Carlson has made his couple things most clear?

[Don Lemon]

The corruption. I think he's spoken out against the corruption.

[Kara Swisher]

The Epstein files.

[Don Lemon]

The Epstein files. It's just he's willing to be a little dyspeptic in a way that's effective.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

But we also remember when Tucker Carlson was normal and normal ish when he was on CNN and he actually related to people. So he still has that. So I think he has an appeal.

[Don Lemon]

He could get back to that.

[Kara Swisher]

He could get back to that.

[Ested Herndon]

So I am a little surprised cuz I expected JD Vance to be the first king selected here just because of the sheer coalescing around him that we've seen from Republican.

[Kara Swisher]

Vance is an empty vessel. He talks a lot and talks fast, but he says nothing.

[Ested Herndon]

And he stands for the third pick of this fantasy draft. I'm taking JD Vance because let me

[Don Lemon]

tell you, he has the charm of a cybertruck.

[Ested Herndon]

Listen, this is not a bet on J.D. vance's personal charisma, but it is a bet that he's the one who has a foot in both worlds. Both the most likely, I think Donald Trump endorsement and kind of support from the inside of the White House. While he's also made the podcast circuit, made the MAGA rounds, dan Quayle of

[Kara Swisher]

2020 people, Democrats don't like him. Moderates independ, Independents don't like.

[Ested Herndon]

This is not choosing the next president. But that's the next Republican nominee.

[Kara Swisher]

He's not even making it there.

[Ested Herndon]

I did not expect J.D. vance to be this controversial of a pick. Like I do think he, him and his family and kind of their kind of like young MAGA Camelot thing they're trying to do has a resonance among some of GOP based. And so I think some of these other candidates would have to overcome skepticism from the Trump pro crowd. He starts from that place. And so that's why I'm gonna select J.D. vance.

[Kara Swisher]

He will block him.

[Don Lemon]

He does not like him.

[Ested Herndon]

So y' all are saying you're just, you're confident that Donald Trump is not gonna endorse J.D. vance?

[Don Lemon]

I think he knows cringe and I think cringe is the brand of J.D. vance. And he doesn't, like, cringe.

[Ested Herndon]

Interesting. I'll let you have the last word on that.

[Don Lemon]

He does not wanna be followed by that guy.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, so you're up next. You tell me what's gonna be your second selection for your presidential.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Where.

[Ested Herndon]

Where are you going next? Ooh. RFK Jr. As the second selection for Kara Swisher in our 2028 Republican fantasy draft. Why RFK?

[Don Lemon]

I can't stand him, but I think he's appealing. I think he's a Kennedy. He's got a thing. Even despite the jeans, working out with the jeans thing, which is grotesque. And sweaty balls kind of thing, I think he has an appeal.

[Ested Herndon]

Cara.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Ew.

[Don Lemon]

Didn't you think sweaty balls when you were watching that?

[Ested Herndon]

I thought, I was thinking, I thought restrictions.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

I was drinking.

[Kara Swisher]

Swamp. Yeah, yeah. And sweaty balls.

[Ested Herndon]

Swamp ass and sweat.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. Exactly. I think he has. He's got a certain charisma again. I think he gets the Kennedy thing and people still. It still works.

[Kara Swisher]

One question.

[Ested Herndon]

It does feel a little bit as if RFK Jr has receded once in the administration rather than the central figure he played in the election campaign. You still think, though, that kind of maha. Credibility he came in with is a legitimate political force?

[Don Lemon]

I do, I do, I do. I think it's. I think they're mad at him over the glycophenate, whatever you call it, whatever roundup. But I do think he's as crazy as he is. I think he's got a chance.

[Kara Swisher]

So I get to pick now.

[Ested Herndon]

Yep. You're up, Don. Tell me where you're going next. Ooh. We have Thomas Massie selected for Don Limit. That is a bold choice. Tell me why.

[Kara Swisher]

Because he has garnered lots of credibility among independents and some Republicans because of the Epstein files. I think he's conducted himself very well and I think that his. What is it? Foibles. Is that right? He can self correct. He can disavow some of those things and say, that's the way I thought then, like, if he comes out and he says, look, people should be able to marry who they want. I've evolved on same sex marriage, much like Barack Obama did. People will believe him and kind of

[Don Lemon]

like AOC for men. I wouldn't compare them, but AOC is moving, pivoted.

[Kara Swisher]

She's evolved.

[Don Lemon]

She's evolved and so is he. He is moving that way. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And I think that the scales have come off of his eyes in relation to his own party.

[Ested Herndon]

Interesting. Do you think, to the point I asked earlier, that a Donald Trump critic could survive a Republican primary.

[Don Lemon]

That's the problem because I pick him in a second as an appealing winner. This is a 2028 winner, but the Republicans won't let him win.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay, so I am up next and we have had some surprising selections. Now you all are really going for outsiders here with RFK Jr. And Thomas Massie. I think my second pick is going to be Donald Trump himself. I think that the likelihood of a third run, not zero.

[Don Lemon]

You're supposed to say a non zero chance.

[Ested Herndon]

A non zero chance. And to the point about Republican willingness to upend Democratic norms. Basically listening to things he says in the terms of playing the odds, I might go with Trump blowing up our democracy and having himself a third time. Is that a crazy thing?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, not at all. I mean, look at what happened with birthright citizenship. They sent it to the Supreme Court. Maybe they'll send, you know, the presidential election.

[Don Lemon]

Well, that means Obama comes back.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah, I do think that just means we get ourselves fucking.

[Don Lemon]

Clinton could run. I know we don't want that. Can I just say I think he's not gonna be living. I'm gonna say that. I know it's controversial.

[Ested Herndon]

This is coming from the longevity expert. I'm just saying this holds a new weight.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know if he's not gonna be living. I don't think he'll be well enough to run.

[Don Lemon]

He's too old. Biology is undefeated. He's too old. 100%.

[Ested Herndon]

We've now gone through, I think what are the top choices of people's thinking about Republicans. So we're now getting to the also rants and I think these are kind of interesting to see your thinking about where you think the Republican. So this is us somewhat thinking about long shot options. Go ahead.

[Don Lemon]

You pivoting off of Trump running? No, it'll be her.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh, I think that's a good choice.

[Don Lemon]

He'll pick her.

[Ested Herndon]

So Kara's picking Ivanka Trump.

[Don Lemon]

I don't think he'll run. I think he'll push her because he, Donald Trump Jr. A Cybertruck too, right here. And all manner of personal things that aren't appealing like his. He thinks he's appealing and I know he's popular with the base, I get that. But that's because of the shining light of the king.

[Ested Herndon]

I gotta say, I like the Ivanka pick. I thought that, I thought about that in our last round because I do think obviously she's daddy's favorite and also I think has some appeal. I remember being in Georgia Albania's not good for her. I remember being in the Georgia suburb after the 2020 election, and there were rabid Ivanka fans in those kind of, like, college educated women.

[Don Lemon]

She could have the riz he has. I think she's pulled back by. This Albania thing isn't good.

[Ested Herndon]

She's played it. She's laid low in the second verse. In this environment, you can't be.

[Kara Swisher]

I saw an island on the shelf and I just bought it. Right?

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

No, that wasn't good. That was dumb.

[Ested Herndon]

She.

[Don Lemon]

She had played it well. She was playing it well until Albania.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay, Don, who's your Albanian?

[Kara Swisher]

Sir, I'm going to get some of your opinions on this, okay? Because people who will survive a primary in order to become. I don't see any of these people. So I am torn between him, who's kind of a normal person, and him, because he's not a critic, so he

[Ested Herndon]

could actually be a. Oh, so he's torn between Glenn Youngkin, a rich businessman who could fund something, his own campaign or something like that.

[Kara Swisher]

Magas will be behind him because he

[Ested Herndon]

has a MAGA credibility.

[Kara Swisher]

He got MAGA credibility.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, now that y' all have taken some of our top options, I think I'm gonna go. I'm torn between, to Don's point, someone who has a little MAGA credibility and maybe a DeSantis. I'm gonna go Brian Kemp.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, BC BK. BK.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm gonna go Brian Kemp, the Republican governor of Georgia, because there is a universal agreement about his competence about Republicans and others. And for someone who was in the crosshairs of Donald Trump about election denial, he didn't fully blow that relationship up. No, no. And he remains popular in an important state, so I'm not sure whether that's something he would be interested in. But I'm gonna add BK to this list for my third selection. Carrie, you're kicking off our last round.

[Don Lemon]

I'm going a different direction.

[Ested Herndon]

Marjorie Taylor Green.

[Don Lemon]

That's a good choice in the midterms because they're gonna be like, hold the fuck on. We need an anti. We need interesting. Who is acceptable to us too. Who we liked before. And Donald Trump took us down the bad road.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah, she.

[Don Lemon]

It's interesting because she still has America first gang.

[Ested Herndon]

She has America first gang with her. But I wonder whether the her and Trump fight was so explicit that she can come back with that group. But I think it's a good choice.

[Don Lemon]

If she loses big enough in the midterms, she'll start to look like a fucking genius.

[Ested Herndon]

Interest Me. Right.

[Don Lemon]

I told you so. She's got a big I told you so. There's.

[Ested Herndon]

That's true. That's true. All right, last round, Don.

[Don Lemon]

This depends on the midterms and this size.

[Kara Swisher]

This is the last round.

[Ested Herndon]

This is the last round for Republicans.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Okay, so it's between these two.

[Ested Herndon]

Trump Jr. And Glenn Youngkin.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So I think Trump would pick his own son over Glenn Youngkin, but does he. Can he stand on a stage and deliver a speech without sounding like an ass? I'm gonna go with Glenn.

[Ested Herndon]

Glenn Youngkin, selection for Don, who rounds out his team here. Now, it's interesting. We have. I'm looking at the kind of gender split here. Me. Both. Me and Don have all male teams. We have Kara with Ivanka and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Yeah. The misogyny blind spots jumping out.

[Kara Swisher]

If Kara hadn't chosen Marjorie Taylor Greene, I would have picked her, but I don't think she has a chance in hell.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

I'm just saying, if the midterms turn out the way they could, she looks

[Ested Herndon]

good for the last pick of our draft. I, too, am torn. I. I am gonna be an ally. Ha ha. No, I'm just kidding. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is my last choice just because I think there is a kind of sleeper desire for newness and sameness. And I do think that her period as White House press secretary did her a lot of good with that Republican.

[Don Lemon]

I wish she'd do it in our cause. I don't even know.

[Ested Herndon]

From what I hear, she's quite liked. Okay, so we've come to the end of our Republican fantasy draft of candidates, and let's check the teams. Kara Swisher's team includes Marco Rubio, rfk, Ivanka Trump, and Marjorie Taylor Greene. I like that mix of insider, outsider, cabinet official, Trump family. Don Lemon's team has Tucker Carlson, Thomas Massie, Ted Cruz, and Glenn Youngkin. He's going for the boys. That means podcasters, businessmen, white guys, Congressman.

[Don Lemon]

Cause John Lemon famously likes.

[Ested Herndon]

And then mine is going to include our vice president, JD Band, president Donald Trump, Brian Kemp, the Republican governor of Georgia, and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the Arkansas governor.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm so glad you guys went with diversity. Look at all the black people up there.

[Ested Herndon]

They're all white.

[Kara Swisher]

What are you talking about?

[Ested Herndon]

Coming up after the break, we tackle the Democrats and what to take away from this exercise.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

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[Ested Herndon]

Can Donald Trump find a way out of the war in Iran? The Iran war has been by a long margin Trump's biggest policy failure. Part of the reason that he has been unable to end the war is because he can't accept the loss that it would imply from his war goals. I'm Preet Bharara and this week Ian Bremmer, the founder and president of the leading global risk firm Eurasia Group, joins me to break down the latest in the war in Iran. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts. And now we are going to do the Democratic side. Now who is going to be the next Democratic nominee? And of course we gotta acknowledge the elephant in the room. We have a possible presidential candid in the room with us as well.

[Kara Swisher]

I'd have to say if I was being objective, I would be in the mix.

[Ested Herndon]

Don, you can choose first this round.

[Don Lemon]

No, no. Why does he have to. I won.

[Ested Herndon]

I was gonna switch it off just to make sure everybody was happy. You could go second, though. I'm happy to go.

[Kara Swisher]

You can go.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, Kara, by consensus, you're going first. All right, so who will be your first pick in the Democratic candidate fantasy challenge?

[Don Lemon]

I'm gonna tell you, I think there's several really great candidates. It has to be a guy. Unfortunately, I think 2020. And you don't have Gina Raimondo here.

[Ested Herndon]

We don't. We can add that name to the Gina Raimondo here.

[Don Lemon]

But I just interviewed her, and I think she would be incredibly qualified for the run. But even I think she understands that the donors are not going to go out on a limb for a woman.

[Ested Herndon]

You think that the impact of 2016 and 2024 is so clear that it's

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

going to be the.

[Don Lemon]

Many of the women candidates and people and donors have told me they're going to back up white guy. Like, that's what they. That's what they seem to say. I don't like it, but that's it. So that's why you gotta go with this guy first.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh, Gavin Newsom. The first election in our Democratic 2020 fantasy draft, and certainly the leader of the pack when it comes to the white guy primary. Right now among Democrats, this could go really fast.

[Kara Swisher]

Cause I got boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm sure Kara's the same way. Okay, so I'm just gonna give a little analysis here. So I think, you know,

[Ested Herndon]

qualified. Andy Bashir. Qualified, qualified.

[Kara Swisher]

Jon Ossoff, good performance. I'm not sure yet. I like him a lot. George Clooney, sure. I think he's qualified, but those are good. Oh, I think that Josh Shapiro is thoroughly qualified.

[Don Lemon]

That's the one my mother likes.

[Kara Swisher]

Except he's Jewish, and that's not for me. I'm not. But you know what I'm saying. John Ossoff, same thing. And we have the whole Israel thing happening. Same thing with gay Pete Buttigieg, of course. He's like.

[Ested Herndon]

He's brilliant.

[Kara Swisher]

He's gay.

[Ested Herndon]

And there's some reality checks being dropped early in this Democratic fantasy draft.

[Kara Swisher]

He has a diversity issue, which is kind of a double whammy.

[Ested Herndon]

Right. You're saying it's harder for him to win over black Latino votes. Huge in the Democratic primary.

[Kara Swisher]

So I will say I got the whole thing picked out. But I'll tell you why, if I picked that one.

[Ested Herndon]

Interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

I love it. I love it.

[Ested Herndon]

AOC Congresswoman Alexandria OCASIO Cortez is the first selection for Don Lemon's fantasy team. Why?

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Why?

[Kara Swisher]

Because the energy in the Democratic Party is on the progressive side for sure. And she is on the progressive side, but she is not yet quite a Democratic socialist. Not that that's a bad thing.

[Don Lemon]

She kind of said.

[Kara Swisher]

But they don't. She kind of. But I don't think her views, as we said earlier, she's evolving.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think her views are as radical as people would. As one would think. She's smart and she's pretty and she's

[Don Lemon]

great on social media. She's a great communicator. She's a natural inheritor of this gang,

[Ested Herndon]

of the Bernie Sanders gang.

[Kara Swisher]

She's great on social media, and she's a natural communicator.

[Don Lemon]

Natural communicator.

[Kara Swisher]

And that's what happened with Mamdani, and she has that quality.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay, well, that leaves me up next. With the many choices in front of us now we have Gavin Newsom and AOC already selected in our Democratic fantasy draft. Y', all, I think I gotta choose VP Kamala Harris. The recent announcement of South Carolina going first makes me think that there is somewhat of a advantage that the people who have name recognition and speak to that more traditional, more moderate base.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you out strategized me because she was my pick. I should have picked her first because you would never have picked aoc.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh, I was picking aoc the one I was picking.

[Kara Swisher]

The other one, Kamala Harris would have

[Ested Herndon]

been no for sure. My thought if you picked Harris was to pick aoc. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think she's been under the radar. And one thing I would say about the recent reporting we did about the possibility of her running on the show is when I was talking to her team, it was clear that they understood that there was donors and kind of party insiders who did not want her to run again. And there was a thing that they said about if she were to run, it would be as an anti establishment outsider. And I thought, I think that we've seen versions of Kamala Harris before. But that, to me, feels like something.

[Don Lemon]

No, it's so not.

[Ested Herndon]

I don't feel like that's authentic to who she is.

[Don Lemon]

Right. It isn't.

[Ested Herndon]

But I do think that's authentic to where the Democratic base is, a greater recognition of the folks around her about

[Don Lemon]

that she should go towards the cool Kamala, and she doesn't always. She could have said something about Biden and she didn't. She was very careful And I appreciate a lot of things about her, and, boy, she does not deserve most of the blame for what happened. She did a great campaign. I thought she did a lot of energy. The Biden thing just dragged her down to the bottom.

[Ested Herndon]

An anchor.

[Don Lemon]

Anchor, yeah. And then she wouldn't, like, cut him loose, and I kind of like her for that. And at the same time, I'm like, like, honey, if you want to win this thing, cut him loose.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, all right. We see Dale Lemon with an inspired choice that he is writing down on this list. Cabaret.

[Don Lemon]

What are you doing?

[Ested Herndon]

Also because the next choice is Kara. She might take your advice. Yeah, I know.

[Don Lemon]

Let me see. I need to see it. So I don't know.

[Ested Herndon]

Wait, I'll wait till you get yours.

[Don Lemon]

No, no, you may not.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh, Hunter Biden added to the list for your updates.

[Don Lemon]

He may seem like he's flavor of the week, but there's a lot of not good about that young man.

[Ested Herndon]

Kara, who is your second selection?

[Don Lemon]

I think he would win Mark Cuban, but I don't think he will run, so I know he will not run.

[Ested Herndon]

Tell me the logic for Mark Cuban 2028.

[Don Lemon]

I know him really well. I think there is a sort of anti billionaire backlash, and all the AI stuff is gonna be in the thing. I think the data centers are a proxy for anger towards both billionaires. AI job uncertainty, the corruption of the Trumps around crypto. I think it's all wrapped up in the AI. I think he has. He has proved himself to be someone who is reasonable, willing to work across party lines. At the same time, he's doing this cost plus drug thing, which I think is positive. I think he's genuine. Like it. He's cool on the sports stuff. He's good looking, but he's good.

[Kara Swisher]

Got a good vibe.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, Don, you're up. Who you got next?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh,

[Ested Herndon]

oh, he's taking Wes Moore. I thought he was gonna choose a handsome black guy of another sort. Give me your logic for the Wes Moore selection.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you seen.

[Ested Herndon]

I've seen him. I've seen him. I've seen it.

[Don Lemon]

Is this, like, not Grindr? What's happening here?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no, not like that. I love him like a brother. And his wife. I mean, his wife's a friend. And I just think that he is brilliant. He has a good heart, he's handsome, and people really like him. He has a charismatic personality.

[Ested Herndon]

I mean, he certainly has the fresh face quality and I think is introducing himself on the national stage where there's a desire to hear from Some new people. So I could definitely see him making something work. I think I'm gonna go with the senator from Georgia, John Austin. All right, good. Because I think that it is an electability thing and I think about what you're saying about Jewish candidates, and I honestly think there is some way that it can insulate some folks from some criticism too. And that if you kind of play, if you speak to your kind of anti Zionist, but also not overtly left wing communities, I think they can actually play both roles there. And so I can actually see a Jewish candidate being an advantage for an issue for Democrats, but not necessarily a hindrance if you're not firmly in one side or the other. Right.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Ested Herndon]

So I think I'm gonna go Ossoff. He's also made what should be a really tight race look fairly safe for Democrats in this year. And I think that he could to get a little midterms boost because of that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, we're on the same page. Cause that was gonna be one of my picks again. And the reason I was gonna pick him is because the ladies love him. Ladies vote black women love him. They call him Senator Maibu. And we know that the road to the White House and the Democratic Party runs through black women.

[Ested Herndon]

So go ahead.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

What do you got next?

[Don Lemon]

All right, it's hard here because I'm gonna go. I'm between two people that I like a lot and I've spent a lot of time with. One is Gina Raimondo, who I think in any other world would be very qualified.

[Ested Herndon]

Is your concern is gender specifically?

[Don Lemon]

Absolutely. And I think she knows it too.

[Kara Swisher]

See, I'm not. So I think a woman might have a shot.

[Don Lemon]

Gina Raimondo. Then I'll pick Gina Raimondo. Because here's the thing, I just interviewed her and she's funny. Another funny person. She's got a great background.

[Kara Swisher]

Does she have a name recognition?

[Don Lemon]

Well, she was governor of Rhode island and she was commerce secretary, so that's the difficulty. She's a great vice presidential candidate. To me, she's just raised enormous amount of money, some from a lot of tech companies. But she's not pro tech. She's managing this sort of can do spirit like the CHIPS act, the infrastructure bill.

[Ested Herndon]

I wonder if voters prioritize policy though, like, you know, since you're mentioning it, could. She's had a lot of stability. Other things, like I remember when I was covering Warren's campaign in 2020, one of the questions was like, I get the kind of policy primary, you're playing but are voters going to care about that?

[Don Lemon]

She could make an argument of the stuff she's done. Right. She has a lot of policy behind her things. I got you. I can talk to the tech companies. I can go toe to toe with China. I can do this kind of stuff.

[Ested Herndon]

All right, Don Linman, you're up next.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I'm up next.

[Ested Herndon]

Hey, he picks himself. He is amazing. Maybe the best looking team.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what we're going for.

[Ested Herndon]

All right now, Dom, we have arrived to the moment of truth. Give me the logic for your presidential campaign in 2028.

[Kara Swisher]

Look, I'm out there every day, as you know, and you compliment me for it. I talk to people almost every day I'm out there. Even I go around the country when I other cities, when I go to other countries, I go and speak to people. And I think I know that people are tired of the tried and true. They're tired of corporate Democrats, established Democrats. They want something new and different. Now, experience wise, all of that. I think that I have experience. I don't think that the qualifications to be president anymore means that you have to be a mayor and then a congressman and then a senator. Because if you are smart enough to have smart people around you and you've been around long enough to know that is the key to any successful presidency, then I think you can be a good leader. I also know before I put because my other choice was gonna be either Kamala Harris or Jon Ossoff. It's South Carolina.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

We are starting in South Carolina, which is a state that supports black candidates. It's the reason that Joe Biden became president. And Jim Clyburn is there, and he will help any of these candidates. And they are going, it's gonna be a black candidate in South Carolina. So I am a black man. I know that I am gay. And people are like, oh, that's okay. But we'll see, because I think people are coming around to that event.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm asking, what does Don Lemon provide that these other Democrat candidates do not?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not an insider and I am not a Democrat. I'd have to register as a Democrat in order to run.

[Ested Herndon]

And you think people want that?

[Kara Swisher]

I think people want independence.

[Don Lemon]

Yes, they do. I have to tell you, this is a gift to Meghan Kelly if you run. Okay, who's your running mate?

[Kara Swisher]

Who's my running mate?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Ested Herndon]

Swisher Lemon, 2028. There we go. You just lost. You just literally, I'm just talking about electability. We need White guys, straight people, all out the window. We're going Lyndon, Switzerland, 2028. Okay, it is my turn, and I am torn between a couple. I like Raphael Warnock. I'm gonna go against the grain and say Josh Shapiro.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, I was just gonna pick. That was my next pick.

[Ested Herndon]

Because while I agree about the kind of tide turning, particularly against Israel, among the Democratic base, I could see a group of kind of progressive candidates or candidates fighting for that group, splitting votes and someone like Josh Shapiro being able to really kind of do what Biden did in 2020 and coalesce a moderate lane. So obviously, moderate lane means black voters, means, I think some people we haven't necessarily seen him win with just yet. But I do think there is an opportunity, particularly if we see a split electorate among the AOCs and Kamala Harris and everyone else. So I am gonna go with Josh Shapiro in the moderate wing striking bat.

[Kara Swisher]

If he were the nominee, I'd vote for him yesterday.

[Ested Herndon]

We are down to our final round, y'. All. So this is the time for the spicy or maybe out the box picks. Think about where your team might need some new voices or maybe someone who can gobble up a lane I don't think you don't have.

[Don Lemon]

Who are you? Kimmel. Oh, my God.

[Ested Herndon]

Oh, Jimmy Kimmel.

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Don Lemon]

Lol.

[Ested Herndon]

I thought about adding JB Pritzker, who's not.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my God. Oh, then I take him.

[Ested Herndon]

You can take him. Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. How did you leave him out?

[Ested Herndon]

That was bad on my part. I was actually thinking about that. Right now we're gonna say Governor J.B. pritzker of Illinois, who's almost certainly running, has a whole bunch of money behind him.

[Don Lemon]

I say I would have put him before JB Raimondo. Here's why I like him. I just was with him, actually last week. He is incredibly well spoken, rich as can be, so he can fund a lot of stuff. He's very well liked and very pro business and at the same time, very good at pushback. And he's been effective. He also has, like a dad vibe.

[Kara Swisher]

But he's like a normal guy, Normy. He's not like a rich guy.

[Don Lemon]

He's got a dad. He's got a dad.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah, my Illinois family has definitely come around him as, like the people's billionaire. The way people talk about him is Populous.

[Don Lemon]

He's a very well known, liked, very rich.

[Ested Herndon]

Rich Dom, give me your final pick.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, so look, I am Kara Swisher. I think that I would like her to be my vice president. Oh, let's See, I am going to say, wow, it's a tough one.

[Ested Herndon]

It's tough.

[Kara Swisher]

It's.

[Ested Herndon]

Between these two, you're thinking about Clooney or. Who else?

[Kara Swisher]

Or Stephen Colbert.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay, so you're going again with outsiders. More of a celebrity choice.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Ested Herndon]

But also people who are politically engaged.

[Kara Swisher]

Politically engaged. And I don't think. I think it's Clooney.

[Ested Herndon]

Clooney. I like that choice. This is someone who obviously played a big role in the last Democratic presidential primary. Kind of surprisingly. Give me the Clooney logic.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, the Clooney logic is he is. He's my hall pass. But no, I think, look, he's very politically engaged. He's very philanthropic. He has a very accomplished wife who actually should be running for President of the United States.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And I think that he has just enough celebrity and just enough political savvy that it would make a very interesting mix. And if he stands at the microphone, at a podium, in an arena, everyone is going to pay attention because it's

[Don Lemon]

George Clooney and he loves people. If he did it right.

[Kara Swisher]

But by the way. Oh, you haven't put every.

[Ested Herndon]

I haven't put mine yet.

[Don Lemon]

Okay. All right.

[Ested Herndon]

Okay.

[Don Lemon]

So I think I like it.

[Ested Herndon]

I do like your squad. I'm torn from my last choice between three. These three right here. Raphael Wariak of Georgia, Pete Buttigieg, judge, former transportation secretary, and Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan governor. I'm going to go Raphael Warnock, not because I'm completely sure he's going to run for president, particularly as him and Ostof might have a choice on their hands. But I do think it's the type of person, whether it be South Carolina,

[Don Lemon]

we talk about him as quiet as someone.

[Ested Herndon]

And I do think he has some interest based on some talks I've had with him. His interesting thing to me is he's really changed his tune on Israel from when he was preaching to when he's been in office, kind of becoming more pro. But I think that also is, I think, you know, with that black evangelical tradition and others, there's a lot of ways they can go on that kind of issue. Specifically.

[Don Lemon]

That is not a good thing with the young people.

[Ested Herndon]

That is not a good thing with the young people. But I do think, you know, being the pastor of Ebenezer gives you some leeway. You know, I would like to see them yell at him. Let's go through our Democratic teams.

[Kara Swisher]

I gotta get a picture. This is.

[Ested Herndon]

Cause look.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, just look how beautiful my team.

[Ested Herndon]

It is really calming. He really did beat us.

[Don Lemon]

You got that picked based on looks?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I did not. But let me just tell you something selfishly. Look at these pictures. Look at how beautiful.

[Ested Herndon]

Look at.

[Kara Swisher]

No, seriously, look at what melanin does for you.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm just saying. Let's go through the teams. Kara Switch has Gavin Newsom, Mark Cuban, Gina Raimondo, and J.B. pritzker. Don Lemon has Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, Wes Moore himself, and George Clooney. And then I have Vice President Kamala Harris, Jon Ossoff, Josh Shapiro, and Raphael Warnock. Is there any person you are surprised was not selected? You mentioned Rahm Emanuel.

[Kara Swisher]

Rahm Emanuel, I'm surprised, wasn't selected. And Bashir.

[Ested Herndon]

Bashir is someone who comes up a lot.

[Don Lemon]

And Pete. Cause everyone really likes Pete. Another vice presidential candidate. Here's the thing. Don is casting a movie here.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm not.

[Don Lemon]

He's casting a movie. Ocean's fifth year.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Ocean 2028.

[Ested Herndon]

The gang takes PC.

[Don Lemon]

I am reasonable. I'm like, this is a reasonable choice of people.

[Ested Herndon]

You're really going businessy, though. I see J.B. pritzker, Mark Cuban, even Gavin Newsom as people who are business acceptable.

[Don Lemon]

Yes. Business kids.

[Kara Swisher]

I think our picks really reflect our personality.

[Ested Herndon]

Yeah. I've mixed all around the board, like I was trying to let Shapiro occupy one lane, and I'm just obsessed with Georgia, apparently. Yeah, let's move on. Let's move on. Okay, so we've now done our Democratic and Republican drafts. We only have one last step here, which is that I want one takeaway from each of you about what we learned throughout this process. And we're gonna go one by one before we get outta here. Does anybody have a takeaway that comes to their mind thinking about either the Democrats we picked or the Republicans?

[Kara Swisher]

I had a tough time with the Republicans simply because of where we are right now when it comes to Republicans, especially Mad. The interesting thing that was enlightening to me, that made me feel better, is that there isn't a person on that board that I would not vote for

[Ested Herndon]

on the Democratic side, Democratic side.

[Kara Swisher]

And so that gives me a little bit more hope about 2028.

[Ested Herndon]

Interesting.

[Don Lemon]

Kara, for me, I think people after. I think people want to put Trump in the rearview mirror. And so anyone associated with him, I think, is not going to win. I think it's just people are sick of him, and I think people are going to want something totally different. So I'm looking for that.

[Kara Swisher]

You're forgetting the most important thing that you and I Where we work now, digital is gonna be extremely important. Someone who is on social media can

[Don Lemon]

go from a podcast to a social media to a debate to a. And who's not seeing anywhere else. And that's why I worry about Kamala Harris. I don't think she takes enough risks in that. Whoever can take a risk. Don Lemon is obviously a fucking expert. Wes is pretty good. Mark is great. Like, it's just who's good at it. And. And there's fewer good at it. There's very few good at it in the Republican Party. And there's not so good at it here too. There's some who are great at it.

[Ested Herndon]

I think my takeaway, at least for the Republicans, is y' all skepticism about Vance. I think it's fair. I think it's earned. But I do think the foremost question when we think about the Republican nomination is just what happens with him and Trump's relationship if that blows up. Obviously, it's kind of wild west out there, but the nature of that one and you all's kind of certainty that you think it's gonna shift really quick, that sticks in my head. And on the Democratic side, I do think the electability question is a really important one. Like, we were just in South Carolina. We heard so many people say it's gotta be a white guy, that there's gotta be someone who kind of focuses people just on defeating Republicans. But at the same time, in these dim primaries, you're seeing different versions of electability kind of come out in New York and Colorado, even the Michigan, Wisconsin.

[Kara Swisher]

But I said, if I could take you back, you're old enough to remember. People said the same thing with Barack Obama, right? And they were like, oh, it's gotta be Hillary Clinton. That's why it's gotta be a white person. Even the Congressional Black Caucus, even black leaders. And then he won, and they're like, oh, shit, everybody got behind him. So you never know.

[Ested Herndon]

My last takeaway, though, would be that the centrality of divisions like Israel and AI feel like a real fault line with so many of these candidates. And that even the question of whether a Jewish candidate is helped or hurt by that conversation feels like something that is going to be really central to 2027 and 2020.

[Don Lemon]

That's why Vance is a no. He's too tight with the billionaires. I think Rachel Maddow is right. He's Peter Thiel's failed intern.

[Kara Swisher]

I hate that we have to have a conversation about, can a Jewish person be president?

[Ested Herndon]

Can I get to. Yeah, I think that it's an uncomfort that I think has often really been applied to women, black folks, other things. And I think think this electability conversation, including all those things.

[Kara Swisher]

Now is there someone, anyone up there if I can, if I need to throw something that you would. I know you said these are the possibilities, but that you would say shouldn't run.

[Ested Herndon]

You know, Kamala Harris was my first pick and I think it's gonna be. It would be like difficult. Like I do think it would be a real tightrope now. I think it's a tightrope that has fundamentals of a fine campaign and has name recognition and all those things. But to the point of what I talked about earlier, I do think being anti establishment will be almost required. And I wonder if that's a role, if that's a worldview she can comfortably step in that's authentic to her. And so that's the one I would think. Like, I think the party would be helped if it was a full opening of new candidates. But I think she's reading the same polls we are and so like, so qualified. Yeah. And I think it's also a feeling of like, am I getting skipped over?

[Don Lemon]

She is.

[Ested Herndon]

And I think that's what's motivating. But I think if you ask maybe who should or shouldn't, that's the person that comes to mind.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the person that comes to mind. But I mean, on that board, I say three people for the same reason. Me, George Clooney and Mark Cuban. Why mess up your beautiful life?

[Don Lemon]

Why?

[Kara Swisher]

Why mess up your beautiful life?

[Don Lemon]

Party in the White House.

[Ested Herndon]

I'm like, your loss is our game.

[Don Lemon]

Get over here.

[Ested Herndon]

America actually will be in your feeds every Saturday with an interesting interview in culture or politics. And you can also watch these episodes on the Vox YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube.com vox or click the link in the show notes. The best way to support this show is by becoming a VOX member. Members get a bonus segment on Patreon every week and they make our work possible. Just go to Vox.com members to join. That's Vox.com members to join. This show was edited by Kasia Bresalian, fact checked by Sarah Schwepp and mix by Shannon Mahoney. Christopher Snyder is our video editor and Khun Nui is our senior art director. Our executive producer is Christina Vallis, and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Additional support from Miranda Kennedy, David Tadashore, Anisha Chitan All. I'm Ested Herndon and this is America. Actually

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