Fed up

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Fed up
Host: Noel King (Vox)
Guests: Matt Grossman (Wall Street Journal), Andrew Prokop (Vox), Bill Pulte (clip audio), Lisa Cook (clips)
Date: August 27, 2025

This episode of Today, Explained delves into President Trump’s efforts to remove Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook amid unsubstantiated allegations of mortgage fraud. The show explores the rarely tested legal and institutional frameworks that protect Fed officials, the striking political weaponization of federal regulatory agencies, and the background and role of Bill Pulte—the Trump-appointed director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency—who has spearheaded efforts to drum up accusations against political opponents. The episode unpacks the implications for the Fed’s independence and the broader American political system.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Is Lisa Cook?

• Role and Background:
  • Lisa Cook is one of seven governors on the Federal Reserve Board, an academic economist, and a Biden appointee.
  • She grew up in Georgia, came from a middle-class background, and holds a PhD in economics from Berkeley.
  • Known for her research on economic history of the Soviet Union and Black Americans in the US, focusing on the intersection of violence, race, and economic opportunities ([02:14]–[04:19]).
  • Quote, Lisa Cook (about her research):

    “If I'm a black inventor in another city, why would I ever invent anything if I thought the intellectual property was never going to be defended?” ([03:45])

2. The Allegations Against Cook

• Nature of Charges:
  • Bill Pulte, director of the FHFA, publicized documents alleging that Cook took out two mortgages for supposedly two primary residences, implying mortgage fraud ([04:25]–[05:21]).
  • President Trump has called for her removal “for cause” on this basis, despite no criminal charges or investigations at the time.
  • Quote, Bill Pulte:

    “She needs to explain herself, but unfortunately, it’s in black and white, and I don’t think it’s going away… I think she needs to resign quickly.” ([04:56])

3. Presidential Authority and the Fed

• Removal for Cause:
  • Federal law is vague regarding the president's ability to remove Fed governors; tradition and statute have generally made it difficult, requiring evidence of actual wrongdoing, not just political differences ([06:02]–[07:17]).
  • No president has successfully attempted to remove a Fed board member or chair for cause before.
  • If Trump proceeds, it would likely result in a protracted legal battle—a significant test of the statutes underlying the Fed’s independence.
  • Quote, Matt Grossman:

    "It’s really an open question as to which way this goes." ([06:02])

4. Cook’s Response

• Denial and Legal Action:
  • Cook has responded by hiring a high-profile attorney, characterizing any attempt to fire her as unlawful, and signaling intent to challenge any dismissal in court ([07:21]).
  • No lawsuit filed yet as of the episode’s recording.

5. The Political Subtext: Race and DEI

• The episode highlights underlying animosity from the Trump administration towards Cook’s background and focus on race and discrimination in her research.
• Noel King observes the administration’s disdain for DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) initiatives, hinting at a broader politicized context for the attempt to oust Cook ([07:53]–[08:16]).
• Matt Grossman notes that Cook was a relatively low-profile governor until the allegations surfaced.

6. Implications for the Federal Reserve

• Trump has opportunities to significantly reshape the Fed:

  • Jerome Powell’s term as Chair is about to expire; a new vacancy is open due to Kugler’s resignation ([09:05]–[10:10]).
  • If Cook is removed, Trump could claim another seat, moving toward a so-called “Trump Fed” that might be more politically compliant.

• Quote, Matt Grossman:

  "If the Fed comes to be more under presidential control... it could be a huge setback for the American economy, for American financial markets." ([10:22])

• Cites historical context of why Fed independence exists, referencing Paul Volcker’s difficult but necessary decisions to curb inflation in the 1980s ([10:22]–[12:04]).

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Segment Highlight: Who Is Bill Pulte?

(Deep-dive begins at [15:11])

1. Background

• Bill Pulte, 37, comes from a wealthy family of homebuilders; launched private equity activities in housing and became known for “Twitter philanthropy”—giving away thousands to followers to gain attention ([16:47]–[18:01]).
  • Quote, Bill Pulte:

    "If somebody can demonstrate to me how they'll use $10,000, I'll give away $10,000." ([17:37])

2. Political Influence

• Pulte donated to pro-Trump causes and was rewarded with the FHFA directorship.

• Known for his aggressive and partisan style on social media.

• Quote, Andrew Prokop:

  "[Pulte] has been extremely successful at both inserting himself into political controversies and in dredging up accusations and political attacks against enemies of President Trump." ([15:29])

• Pulte’s focus as FHFA director has not been core regulatory work, but rather using the position to aid the Trump administration in targeting political adversaries.

3. Use of FHFA Power to Target Trump’s Adversaries

• Pattern of Behavior: Pulte has scrutinized mortgage records of prominent Democrats:

  • Adam Schiff (CA senator, intelligence committee chair)
  • Letitia James (NY Attorney General).

• Cited possible mortgage fraud as a pretext for criminal referral, using FHFA’s tools ([21:34]–[22:56]).

  • Quote, Bill Pulte:

    “We're not going to have mortgage fraud. It doesn't matter who you are... if you do mortgage fraud, we're going to come after you.” ([16:08])

• Seen by many as politically motivated, an unprecedented use of such agencies to go after political opposition.

4. “Weaponizing Government”

• The episode connects Trump’s tactics with a broader strategy: using federal agencies to intimidate or remove critics.
• Quote, Andrew Prokop:

  "He's using this as leverage to try to both get retribution and to push aside critics or people who are inconvenient to him politically." ([23:15])
  "What he is doing is weaponizing government more and more, including parts... like the Federal Housing Finance Agency to dig up dirt on his enemies, to push aside critics, to seize more power for himself..." ([25:27])

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On the stakes for democracy:

  • Matt Grossman:

    "If the economy loses that kind of referee, but also if investors, business people, and everyday Americans lose the confidence that that sort of hand of God is there to guide the economy the way it ought to go, [that] could be a big setback." ([11:58])

• On breaking of political norms and escalation:

  • Andrew Prokop:

    "We've really seen these norms and constraints more and more falling away in a way that is quite concerning, and we're probably still at the very early stages of it." ([24:57])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lisa Cook and the basis of allegations – [02:14]–[05:54]
• Legal limits to removing Fed governors – [06:02]–[07:17]
• Trump’s moves to remake the Fed – [09:05]–[10:10]
• Implications for US economy and democracy – [10:22]–[12:04]
• Who is Bill Pulte? – [15:11]–[19:30]
• Pattern of using mortgage fraud allegations against political enemies – [21:34]–[24:28]
• Analysis of the broader political context ("weaponizing government") – [24:57]–[25:27]

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Tone & Takeaways

Today, Explained presents the episode in a clear, accessible, but urgent tone. The discussion is both informative and cautionary, emphasizing the unprecedented nature and risks of politicizing independent economic institutions and weaponizing regulatory agencies. The hosts and guests take care to distinguish facts from speculation and stress the long-term risks for American democracy and the economy if these boundaries continue to erode.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking to understand the context, background, and stakes of President Trump’s push to remove Fed Governor Lisa Cook—and the disturbing new precedent these efforts might set for American governance.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are engaged.

[Matt Grossman]

I know you can't come to the.

[Noel King]

Wedding, but President Trump thinks interest rates are too high, so we have to do that instead. For months, the president has engaged in Fed related criticism about the Reserve Chair, Jerome Powell.

[Bill Pulte]

He's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed.

[Noel King]

Trump actually appointed him to that job. You may recall there's been criticism about the Fed doing an expensive building reno.

[Bill Pulte]

We'd like to see it get finished. And in many ways, it's too bad.

[Noel King]

It started and now Trump has trained his intermittent focus on Lisa Cook, a governor on the Fed's board. Trump says he's going to fire her for committing mortgage fraud. She's saying basically bring it. You've heard all that. But who is the Trump appointee who went digging for dirt on Cook? That's ahead on TODAY Explained from Vox.

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[Lisa Cook]

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[Noel King]

Payment of $45 per three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com this is today Explained. I'm Noel King with Matt Grossman. He's an economics reporter for the Wall Street Journal. Matt, who is Lisa Cook?

[Matt Grossman]

Lisa Cook is one of seven governors on the board of the Federal Reserve.

[Lisa Cook]

Thank you, Adam. And thank you to the Peterson Institute for inviting me to speak today. This is my first speech as a Fed governor and I am delighted to deliver it here.

[Matt Grossman]

She is an academic economist, which is a pretty common background for someone to have that position. She's only been on the board for two years, so she was just a little bit into the 14 year terms that the governors serve and she was nominated to that job by Joe Biden One of several people that during his presidency, he nominated and placed on the Fed's board. Cook is from the South. She grew up in Georgia. She was from a middle class family. She had a number of academic passions. She first studied philosophy in college, went on to get a PhD in economics from Berkeley, and really spent most of her career in academia doing economic research. She was really interested in economic history. First internationally, she was very interested in economic history of the Soviet Union.

[Lisa Cook]

I wrote my dissertation on the Russian banking system in the Czarist and Posthumia period. As was said before, I lived there in 1995 and 1996 in Moscow.

[Matt Grossman]

And as her career went on, became really interested too, in the economic history of black Americans in the U.S. i.

[Lisa Cook]

Looked at violence and economic activity. So what I looked at was African American patentees to see what happened to them once riots, lynchings, and segregation laws were imposed on them. And I compared them. So that's why, if I'm a black inventor in another city, why would I ever invent anything if I thought the intellectual property was never going to be defended?

[Noel King]

What is the Trump administration? What is Trump accusing Lisa Cook of having done?

[Matt Grossman]

So this first surfaced from a guy named Bill Pulte, who is the head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. Polti put on social media some documents that he says show that going back to 2021, before Cook was on the Fed board, that she had applied for two mortgages on two separate properties about two weeks apart. And Pulte says that she said in those documents that each mortgage was for a primary residence.

[Bill Pulte]

I don't know what cause is if that's not cause. I mean, this lady, I don't understand how she can be in charge of setting interest rates for our country. And here she is potentially lying on her applications to get better interest rates. Like, you know, we have a huge economy. Why are we letting somebody like this do this? She needs to explain herself, but unfortunately, it's in black and white, and I don't think it's going away. And thank you. To be honest, I think she needs to resign quickly.

[Matt Grossman]

Of course, the implication there is that you can't have both of these places be your primary residence. One of them is in Michigan, the other is in Georgia. So the allegation from Pulte is that this was mortgage fraud. And this became very quickly a rationale for the Trump administration to move to fire Cook, or at least to try to. Of course, long before any kind of criminal process has played out or even before charges have been filed or anything. Like that.

[Noel King]

All right, so as a result of this, President Trump says, I'm going to fire Lisa Cook for cause. Can he do that?

[Matt Grossman]

It's a really good question. This is an area of federal law that really has not been tested very much. When Congress created federal agencies, it designated some officials as having a really high standard for the president to remove them. This is often specified as for cause protection, meaning that the president can't just fire you because he disagrees with your politics or he thinks you made a bad decision. The official had to have done something criminal or something that really constitutes malfeasance. The president has never tried to fire someone from the Fed board before. Neither a Fed chair like Jerome Powell, nor one of these governors, who also is a high official within the Fed. Not only that, it's very rare for a president to have tried to fire anybody with this kind of for cause protection in any part of the federal government. Of course, the way that these things usually become clear is that presidents try to do something, somebody challenges it in court, the court tries to reason out the law and figure out what it means. We just haven't had much of that process here with this area of the law. So it's really an open question as to which way this goes.

[Noel King]

What is Lisa Cook saying about all of this?

[Matt Grossman]

We haven't heard a lot from Cook since the allegations came up. She said that she's looking into what went on with her mortgage documents. First of all, she hired a powerful Washington attorney and has said that she thinks that this firing was illegal, that President Trump does not have the power to dismiss her, and that she's going to challenge it in a lawsuit. She hasn't filed that lawsuit yet as of early Wednesday morning here, but I think we expect that to come soon.

[Noel King]

Lisa Cook, of course, is a black economist who has done a lot of research on how racism affects the economic status of black Americans. This is an administration that doesn't like that kind of talk. Right. It views it under the category of, like, dei. This is not what America is all about. Does Lisa Koch's background play any role in this attempt to oust her, as far as you can tell?

[Matt Grossman]

Yeah, that's a good question, and I think it's really hard to say. Of course, the Trump administration would say this is narrowly about this impropriety with her mortgage documents. For the most part, besides Fed Chair Jerome Powell, the Fed governors operate in obscurity. I think most Americans wouldn't recognize them on the street or even know their names. And Cook especially didn't really do a lot to stand out as a governor. In her two years, she didn't make as many speeches as some of her colleagues. She tended to just kind of go with the flow in terms of voting on interest rates. So I would sort of be surprised if Donald Trump knew her name or knew who Lisa Cook was before these allegations surfaced.

[Noel King]

So if Lisa Cook does end up out of a job, where does that then leave the Fed?

[Matt Grossman]

Well, Trump already has a really significant opportunity to reshape the Fed. Fed chair Jerome Powell, who Trump nominated to that job during his first term. His time as the Fed's chair, expires in May. So that will give Trump the opportunity to pick a new face of the institution, a new person who really sets the tone for the whole central bank. He also right now has the chance to nominate another Fed board member because a Biden appointee, Adriana Kugler, resigned from her job earlier in August. And Trump has already nominated a close advisor, Stephen Myron, to take that job. His Senate confirmation hearing will probably start next week. So if Cook is also out of a job, and again, we don't really know that yet, that would give Trump yet another opportunity to put someone, you know, who might be sympathetic with his policy views or someone who's sort of close to his administration potentially onto the Fed board.

[Noel King]

All right, so endgame for President Trump is that we have a Trump Fed and the Trump Fed does what Trump wants, and we are getting closer and closer to that. What are the stakes for Americans here?

[Matt Grossman]

Yeah, I think economists and investors are really anxious about this and think that it could be a huge setback for the American economy, for American financial markets, if the Fed comes to be more under presidential control. The reason that Congress set up the Fed to be independent was that when you're setting interest rates, you sometimes have to make unpopular decisions in order to keep the economy on the right long run path. A great example of this is the inflation that the economy saw in the 1930s, where inflation was running at really high levels for an extended period of time and had really become ingrained. And a Fed chair who's now respected as one of the best to ever do it. Paul Volcker had to raise interest rates to very uncomfortable levels in the early 1980s to put a stop to that. And there was a recession that followed, but it was the decision that had to be made to get the inflation under control. Of course, recessions are always terrible for the political party that's in power. Voters hate it. They blame the president. And so no president ever wants to see that happen. And so when you have a Fed that's independent of the political process, it can make those unpopular decisions when the economy needs could be a big setback if not only the economy loses that kind of referee, but also if investors, business people and everyday Americans lose the confidence that that sort of hand of God is there to guide the economy the way it ought to go.

[Noel King]

That was Matt Grossman of the Wall Street Journal coming up, the henchman, the toady, the fan stooge. Many an adjective has been used, but who is this Bill Pulte.

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[Matt Grossman]

She'S made up her mind to live pretty smart Learn to budget responsibly Right from the start she spends a little less and puts more into savings Keeps her blood pressure low and credit score raises she's curtained debt right out of her life she tracks her cash flow.

[Andrew Prokop]

On a spreadsheet at night Boring money.

[Matt Grossman]

Moves make kinda lame songs but they.

[Bill Pulte]

Sound pretty sweet to your wallet brilliantly boring since 1865.

[Andrew Prokop]

This is today Explained.

[Noel King]

We're back. I'm Noel King. When the news broke that President Trump planned to fire Lisa Cook, this little known Trump administration official started tweeting up a storm about Lisa Cook, about mortgage fraud, about Lisa Cook's homes on Zillow. His name is Bill Pulte and Vox's Andrew Prokop takes it from there.

[Andrew Prokop]

Bill Pulte is the 37 year old director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. And, and it's not an agency that tends to be at the forefront of the national conversation or the political discourse. You probably would not be able to name any other previous director of that agency. And yet he's been extremely successful at both inserting himself into political controversies.

[Bill Pulte]

DEI is dead at Fannie Mae and.

[Andrew Prokop]

Freddie Mac and in dredging up accusations and political attacks against enemies of President Trump.

[Bill Pulte]

And in President Trump's America, we're not going to have mortgage fraud. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, if you do mortgage fraud, we're going to come after you.

[Noel King]

What does the FHFA do?

[Andrew Prokop]

So the FHFA is basically it oversees Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which are the government backed companies that are crucial to the functioning of US Mortgage markets. So it's kind of like a big important regulatory job. But that has not been Mr. Pulte's main focus since he was confirmed.

[Noel King]

We're going to talk about his main focus in a second, but let me ask you where he comes from.

[Andrew Prokop]

So Pulte is from a family that got very wealthy in the business of home building. His grandfather, who's also named Bill, Bill, founded Pulte Group. It was one of the largest home building companies in the US when he got out of college. And in the early 2010s, Bill founded a Michigan based private equity fund that was focused on the housing industry. And then in 2019, that is when Bill Pulte first started to go viral.

[Matt Grossman]

If ealdonaldtrump retweets this, I will give $30,000 to a veteran on Twitter.

[Andrew Prokop]

He started offering to give various of his Twitter followers free money.

[Bill Pulte]

So I put out a tweet, and I said, you know, if somebody can demonstrate to me how they'll use $10,000, I'll give away $10,000.

[Andrew Prokop]

He would offer them hundreds of dollars, thousands, even tens of thousands. He called this Twitter philanthropy, and it made a pretty big splash at the time. He got a lot of media coverage in the mainstream media and the digital media. You're giving away a million dollars.

[Bill Pulte]

I'm giving away a million dollars total on Twitter.

[Matt Grossman]

You're doing it electronically.

[Noel King]

Bill, well done. How does he come to the attention or bring himself to the attention of President Trump?

[Andrew Prokop]

So Twitter philanthropy, the novelty kind of wore off. And Pulte, during the Biden presidency, Pulte started looking for new areas to kind of make a splash and grow his influence. And he started playing in the meme stock. He started, like, holding in person events.

[Bill Pulte]

You're missing, in my opinion, what people call the meme stock, which I call the retail investor.

[Andrew Prokop]

This is a movement just really trying to brand himself as a big, important finance influencer, but again, a niche character. Not very important or seemingly very influential, but he gave some money to the right people. He gave $500,000 to a pro Trump super PAC. He gave some money to Turning Point USA, which is the young conservatives group that was founded by Charlie Kirk, who's a close ally of Donald Trump Jr. And so when Trump won again in 2024, suddenly Pulte was in the mix for a top administration appointment. It kind of came out of nowhere. He was talked about for housing, an urban development secretary, but that didn't happen, and he got FHFA director instead.

[Noel King]

Okay, so he gets an appointment. It's not a sexy one, but it is an appointment. And, like, weirdly enough, it allows him to look into Lisa Cook's mortgage. And could he do that to anyone?

[Andrew Prokop]

It is not yet clear exactly what the process was for Bill Pulte deciding to dig into Lisa Cook's mortgage, but it is very unlikely a coincidence, because it is playing out again amidst a broader campaign by Trump to gain control of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. And Pulte has played a big part in that push. He has also been attacking Jerome Powell, arguing for lower interest rates, which Trump.

[Bill Pulte]

Wants, and he's keeping these rates high for no reason. I think the only reason he's doing it is because he's political, contrary to what he says. And unfortunately, it's hurting a lot of Americans. It's hurting a lot of people.

[Andrew Prokop]

He's been publicly criticizing Powell, urging him to resign, and trying to drum up a pretext for that, too.

[Bill Pulte]

Jay Powell is the number one impediment from this economy becoming booming. And I hear that he's going to resign. I hear he's considering of resigning.

[Andrew Prokop]

He's been really arguing that the expensive renovation of the headquarters of the Fed is scandalous enough to merit Powell's firing for misconduct. But Powell hasn't been going anywhere. And then. So if you're trying to get to a majority of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors to undercut him, Trump has already appointed two people. He has another appointee pending in the Senate, and he needs one more. So that is probably why the eye of Sauron became trained on Lisa Cook.

[Noel King]

Okay, so Pulte is the guy when if you got somebody who needs some looking into, he can look into their mortgage. But you said he's looked into the mortgage records of other people. Who's he? Who we talking about here, Andrew?

[Andrew Prokop]

Well, Cook is the third person that Pulte has apparently targeted. He also went after two of the main Democrats who were involved in major investigations of Donald Trump. Adam Schiff from California, now a senator, who was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in Trump's first term, and Letitia James, the New York State Attorney general. He referred both of them to the Justice Department for possible prosecution, arguing that their mortgage documents showed misstatements. But it doesn't look good. It looks to a lot of people like he is using his position as the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency to basically scrutinize Trump's enemies, to dig into their personal financial history, their mortgage history, what they submitted in mortgage applications, and look for anything that could be said to be mortgage fraud and get them prosecuted and locked up. He said that Fannie Mae's Financial Crimes division concluded that Adam Schiff, Mr. Schiff has engaged in a sustained pattern of possible mortgage fraud. And now there is a grand jury that is looking into Schiff for potential prosecution.

[Bill Pulte]

This bogus latest attack, this bogus latest call for me to be prosecuted or to be jailed is not going to deter me. I'm going to continue to hold Donald Trump accountable for his corruption, for his malfeasance, for the terrible harms he's doing to this country. You can count on it.

[Andrew Prokop]

And whether these cases will actually be filed remains to be seen. There are reasons to think they might not be if the case looks weak. But Trump really does want to have his political enemies prosecuted. He's wanted this for a very long time. And so he. And he's using this as leverage to try to both get retribution and to push aside critics or people who are inconvenient to him politically. Unusually, the Justice Department prosecutor who is investigating Letitia James sent a letter saying that if you resigned as Attorney General of New York, maybe this investigation would go away. We take that as good faith. So it's. It seems transparently political. The catch is that mortgage fraud is a pretty powerful avenue for prosecution. This has long been something we've seen in kind of complex federal prosecutors. People who've watched the Wire may remember that this was referred to as the headshot when they were investigating State Senator Clay Davis in Baltimore.

[Matt Grossman]

I mean, this is some shameful shit.

[Noel King]

Amid all of this, it's important to remember that this is not normal. Administrations typically do not seek retribution in this way. You've been covering these folks for now a full. How long has it been, Andrew? 10 years, 8 months? What are we seeing in terms of the Trump administration and its kind of quest to remove people who it doesn't like?

[Andrew Prokop]

Well, they're very serious about it. And, you know, this connects to the raid on John Bolton's home. Trump has been a lot more successful at getting people who are less concerned about norms of restraint, about process, about not looking political. And so we've really seen these norms and constraints more and more falling away in a way that is quite concerning, and we're probably still at the very early stages of it. And who knows how many of these will hold up. There are many steps in the process where charges like this could fall apart. They could fail to get grand jury approval, they could be thrown out by a judge, they could be rejected by a jury. They could be rejected after conviction, on appeal. We're still a long way from Trump actually managing to get his enemies locked up. But what he is doing is weaponizing government more and more, including parts of government you wouldn't necessarily expect, like the Federal Housing Finance Agency to dig up dirt on his enemies, to push aside critics, to seize more power for himself, and to threaten people with very serious consequences if they don't do what he wants.

[Noel King]

Vox's Andrew Prokop, Rebecca Ibarra and Devin Schwartz produced today's show. Amina El Saadi edited, Laura Bullard, senior researcher, Fan Stooge, Patrick Boyd and Andrea, Kristin's daughter are here. I'm Noel King. It's Today explained.

[Matt Grossman]

Sam.