Fishy business

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – “Fishy Business”

Date: December 4, 2025
Hosts: Noel King and Vox's Kenny Torella
Main Theme:
This episode unpacks the rapid rise and complexities of fish farming (aquaculture), spotlighting its impact on food systems, animal welfare, and the environment. Through expert insights, investigative reporting, and a close look at the life and suffering of farmed fish—especially salmon—the episode challenges listeners to reconsider the ethics and sustainability of “hidden in plain sight” seafood industries.

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1. Introduction: The Aquaculture Expansion

• Opening Context:
  • Recent executive orders aim to relax regulations and expand fish farming in the U.S.
  • In 2022, for the first time, humans ate more farmed than wild fish (02:18).
• Why Now?
  • Overfishing and environmental damage have depleted wild fish stocks, making fish farms seem like a solution.

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2. Scale & Speed: Fish Farming’s Global Boom

• Historic Acceleration:
  • Commercial fish farming exploded in the 1990s; by early 2000s, over 200 aquatic species were being farmed (02:30).
  • Most farming concentrated in China and India.
  • Unlike livestock domesticated over millennia, aquatic domestication has been “100 times faster than the domestication of land animals and on such a bigger scale.” (Kenny Torella, 02:57)
• Staggering Numbers:
  • Annually: 85 billion land animals vs. approx. 760 billion fish and crustaceans farmed (03:22).
  • “9 out of every 10 animals raised for meat are fish.” (Kenny Torella, 03:43)
  • Fastest growing agricultural sector globally.

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3. Salmon: The Case Study

• Why Focus on Salmon?
  • Salmon is second only to shrimp in U.S. seafood consumption (04:23).
  • Symbolizes both the potential and the deep problems of aquaculture.
  • Wild Atlantic salmon populations decimated—added to the endangered species list in early 2000s (04:23).
• Fish Farms Explained:
  • Mass scale: 3 million metric tons per year, roughly 560 million farmed salmon. A fifth is exported to the U.S. (05:20).
  • Farmed in massive floating open-net ocean cages (05:59).

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4. Environmental & Ethical Challenges

Pollution & Disease

• Industrial Practices:
  • "Borrowing all the bad practices that are happening on land. Heavy use of pesticides, antibiotics. This is industrial pig farming out in the ocean." (Kenny Torella, 06:11)
  • Farms release waste, disease (salmon lice, etc.) into the ocean — “a flashpoint among environmentalists.” (06:32)
• Impact on Wild Fish:
  • Pollution from farms threatens wild fish populations, hurting fishermen and ecosystems.
  • Washington state banned salmon farming due to pollution (06:32).

The Nature of Farmed Salmon

• A Crime Against Nature?
  • “In the wild, [salmon] migrate thousands of miles... on salmon farms, they're reduced to swimming in tiny circles for years and eating small man-made pellets... It's seen almost as a crime against nature. One researcher I talked to compared it to trying to farm tigers.” (Kenny Torella, 07:50)

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5. Has Fish Farming Solved Overfishing?

• Intention vs. Reality:
  • “Little to no evidence that farming fish has helped wild populations rebound.” (Kenny Torella, 08:57)
• Feed Paradox:
  • 1lb of farmed salmon needs 2.4lbs of wild-caught fish (like sardines, anchovies) as feed (09:23).
  • “The effects of salmon on the environment ripple out far beyond the farms...” (09:40)
• Escape & Genetic Pollution:
  • “Tens of millions of farmed salmon have managed to escape their cages and make their way into the ocean.” (Kenny Torella, 09:40)
  • Escaped non-native fish compete, interbreed with wild salmon, leading to “genetic pollution.” (10:35)
  • “The farming of salmon, which was intended to give wild salmon populations a break, actually created this new challenge for them.” (10:35)

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6. The Science of Fish Sentience

• “Are Fish Conscious?”
  • Fish have long been overlooked (“hard to empathize with, unlike, say, a cow”—Noel King, 14:02).
  • “Humanity's default attitude... has largely just been that they're stupid... mindless automatons. Though we now know that some fish species can use tools... solve problems...” (Kenny Torella, 14:15)
• Do Fish Feel Pain?
  • Landmark studies in early 2000s revealed fish have nociceptors (pain receptors) and exhibit behaviors indicating distress and awareness when harmed (15:07).
  • "When rainbow trout were injected with painful substances... their respiration rates spiked... they rubbed the affected areas against the walls of their tanks." (Kenny Torella, 16:10)
  • “The belief that they can't [feel pain] is a pretty minority view in the scientific community.” (Kenny Torella, 16:36)
• Consciousness Debate:
  • Pain and sentience are increasingly accepted; “at some point, I think we have to extend that benefit of the doubt to fish.” (Kenny Torella, 17:46)

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7. Undercover Reporting: Fish Welfare Exposed

• Factory Farm Conditions:

  • Undercover reporting by Erin Wing paints portrait of fish suffering in industrial settings (18:21).
  • “In this facility, there were at least 25,000 to 100,000 fish per tank, and they were swimming in circles constantly, day after day...” (Erin Wing, 18:51)
  • Reports of disease, neglect, and brutal euthanasia:
    • “Fish being euthanized by being repeatedly slammed against the sides of tanks, or even...against metal poles... then proceeded to stomp on the fish...” (Erin Wing, 19:49)
  • Genetic manipulation for faster growth (mirrors issues in chicken farming, causing health problems).

• Worker Desensitization:

  • “He just happened to say, yeah, it’s really rough the way that we kill them. It used to bum me out. But over the years, you kind of get desensitized.” (Erin Wing, 20:27)
  • “There's no room for... empathy or compassion... in fish farming.” (Erin Wing, 21:07)

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8. Rethinking Our Choices: Ethics and Alternatives

• Should We Eat Fish?
  • “I don’t think the choice necessarily needs to be all or nothing. Simply just eating less meat, especially from the species that tend to be treated the worst—like fish—can make a really big difference.” (Kenny Torella, 21:59)
  • Some species like tilapia and carp are more compatible with humane farming, but even those face welfare issues (22:50).
• A Different Future:
  • NYU Professor Becca Franks suggests shifting aquaculture toward seaweed and bivalves (oysters, mussels, scallops), which are less sentient and can be sustainably farmed (23:44).
• Outlook and Hope:
  • “My hope is that in the future, as fish farming grows... the seafood industry can be much more intentional and careful about how seafood is produced.” (Kenny Torella, 24:57)

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9. Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Aquatic domestication occurred 100 times faster than the domestication of land animals and on such a bigger scale.” — Kenny Torella (02:57)
• “9 out of every 10 animals raised for meat are fish.” — Kenny Torella (03:43)
• “It's become a massive industry. … 3 million metric tons of fish each year, which comes out to be about 560 million salmon.” — Kenny Torella (05:20)
• “This is industrial pig farming out in the ocean.” — (06:11)
• “One researcher I talked to compared [salmon farming] to trying to farm tigers.” — Kenny Torella (07:56)
• “Likely not, huh? ... There's little to no evidence that farming fish has helped wild populations rebound.” — Kenny Torella (08:57)
• “Tens of millions of farmed salmon have managed to escape their cages... leading to what experts call genetic pollution...” — Kenny Torella (10:09)
• "We now know that some fish species can use tools. They can be trained to perform tricks and solve problems." — Kenny Torella (14:15)
• “Fish being euthanized by being repeatedly slammed against the sides of tanks, or even... against metal poles...” — Erin Wing (19:49)
• “It used to bum me out. But over the years, you kind of get desensitized.” — Erin Wing (20:27)
• “Seaweed and bivalves... can be farmed in a really environmental, friendly manner... there's also a lot of skepticism that they are even sentient, that they can feel pain.” — Kenny Torella, relaying Becca Franks' views (23:44)
• “Maybe we kind of got ahead of our skis with rapidly domesticating and farming 200 aquatic species when the whole fish kingdom is incredibly complex and diverse and is not a monolith.” — Kenny Torella (24:28)

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10. Key Timestamps for Segments

• 02:18: Noel King begins interview with Kenny Torella
• 03:22: Staggering scale of fish farming
• 04:23: Focusing on salmon
• 06:11: Industrial parallels between pig and fish farming
• 08:57: Evidence that fish farming hasn’t helped wild populations rebound
• 09:40: Genetic pollution from escaped salmon
• 14:15: Evidence of fish intelligence
• 15:07: The science of fish pain
• 18:51: Undercover footage from a salmon hatchery
• 19:49: Accounts of poor euthanasia practices
• 20:27: Emotional toll/desensitization of workers
• 21:59: Kenny’s own dietary practice and suggestions for listeners
• 23:44: Species-specific recommendations (seaweed, bivalves)
• 24:28: Lessons from the aquaculture boom

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11. Takeaways

• Eating Less, Eating Better:
  Decisions about eating fish aren’t all-or-nothing; reducing consumption—especially of poorly farmed species—matters.
• Choose Wisely:
  Sustainable seafood = more attention to species, sources, and production methods.
• Fish Deserve Care:
  Science confirms fish feel pain and are more sentient than previously thought.
• Industry Needs Reform:
  The rapid, uncritical expansion of fish farming has outpaced our ability or willingness to safeguard welfare and the environment.

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Summary prepared for those who want a nuanced, up-to-date understanding of the ethical, environmental, and practical realities of aquaculture and the fish on their plate.

Transcript

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

At McDonald's, there's always something to have. I like the fish. I like it.

[Noel King]

In the barrage of executive orders that President Trump signed this year, one back in April flew low under the radar. The order aimed, among other things, to allow the expansion of aquaculture, or fish farming, by relaxing regulations.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

It's crazy, the regulation, and the president.

[Noel King]

Has a point here in 2022 for the first humans ate more fish that came from farms than fish that came from the sea. Many of us think that this is much better, more ethical, more environmentally sound than overfishing wild fish from the oceans. So why not expand it? Coming up on TODAY Explained, vox's Kenny Torella takes a deep dive lol, into what's really been going on on fish farms.

Support for TODAY Explained comes from March of Dimes. It is given season, as you know, and March of Dimes suggests that you might want to support the health of mothers and babies with a gift to March of Dimes. March of Dimes leads the fight for the health of all moms and babies through research, education, advocacy and programs like NICU Family Support and Mom and Baby Mobile Health Centers. March of Dimes says March of Dimes does the work they do because they believe that every family deserves the best possible start. You can donate today at marchofdimes.org Vox that's marchofdimes.org Vox.

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[TODAY Explained Announcer]

This is TODAY Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King with vox's Kenny Torella. Kenny writes about animal welfare and the future of meat production. And lately Kenny has been considering fish farming. How long has this been going on?

[Kenny Torella]

Well, throughout history there are examples of small scale fish farming, but it only took off on a commercial scale in the 1990s and it took off really quickly. By the early 2000s, humans were farming well over 200 aquatic animal species and most of this has been concentrated in China and India. But I think what is so noteworthy here is that chickens, pigs and cows, you know, they were domesticated over thousands of years while fish have been domesticated, which is essentially kind of forcing them into unnatural conditions. In a matter of decades as some marine biologists have written, aquatic domestication occurred 100 times faster than the domestication of land animals and on such a bigger scale.

[Noel King]

How big, Kenny, is the fish farming industry?

[Kenny Torella]

Well, for context, Today there's around 85 billion land animals, mostly chickens, pigs, and cows farmed each year.

[Noel King]

85 billion.

[Kenny Torella]

But there's an estimated 760 billion fish and crustaceans, which is a figure that is projected to quickly grow. So another way to put this is essentially 9 out of every 10 animals raised for meat are fish.

Fish farming is the fastest growing agricultural sector in the world. This is what at vox, we like to call a hidden in plain sight story, which is why I wanted to write about it. The development of fish farming over the last 50 years represents one of the biggest transformations in food production that has received really little attention, but has had huge consequences for food security, for nutrition, for animal welfare, and for the environment.

[Noel King]

And the fish that you picked to focus on in your piece for Vox was the humble or beautiful salmon. Why did you pick salmon?

[Kenny Torella]

Well, I picked salmon because they have become America's favorite fish to eat. After shrimp. We eat salmon more than any other aquatic animal. But salmon farming has also kind of become emblematic of some of the problems with fish farming more broadly. You know, it emerged in the 1970s largely in response to man made problems, you know, over the previous century. Overfishing, industrial pollution, climate change, dams. These had all come together to really decimate wild Atlantic salmon populations to the point where they were actually added to the endangered species list in the early 2000s, which made it illegal to fish them.

[Noel King]

The UN estimates a third of all seafood might be overfished. We're emptying the oceans at an alarming rate. Worldwide, 80% of commercial fish stocks have been declared fully exploited or overexploited.

[Kenny Torella]

So with the goal of taking pressure off of depleted wild populations, seafood producers really began to scale up salmon farming in the 1970s, and it has boomed ever since. It's become a massive industry. It's concentrated in Norway, Chile, and the United Kingdom, where they produce almost 3 million metric tons of fish each year, which comes out to be about 560 million salmon. And about one out of every five farmed salmon are shipped off to the US to stock our grocery store shelves and restaurants.

[Noel King]

Okay, so what does this all look like? What's going on at your typical fish farm?

[Kenny Torella]

Yeah, so I'll talk about salmon farms specifically. Although they're all pretty similar, they're raised by the hundreds of thousands or even millions in floating cages in the ocean just off.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

And so it's borrowing all the bad practices that are happening on land. Heavy use of pesticides, antibiotics. This is industrial pig farming. Out in the ocean.

[Kenny Torella]

Hundreds of salmon farms use what are known as open net cages. They release harmful waste into the sea, including salmon lice.

And it's worth noting that, you know, this type of salmon farming and just fish farming in general has a relatively small carbon footprint compared to other meats, which has been a big selling point in its global ascendance over the last few decades. But salmon farming has also become a flashpoint among environmentalists in Norway, Canada and the uk. Even in the US you know, Washington state banned salmon farming earlier this year because when you cram so many animals into the ocean and all of their waste, it leads to a lot of pollution. You know, salmon farmers are often trying to treat or prevent various diseases, which means that they're dumping a lot of chemicals into the water that can hurt other marine life. And this has actually even pitted salmon farmers against the wild catch fishermen who say that the salmon farms are polluting and killing off the wild fish populations that they depend on for their livelihoods. I think there's one other reason why the fight over salmon farms have become so symbolic in the environmental movement. And it's because in the wild, there are these carnivorous hunters who migrate thousands of miles from freshwater rivers out into the salty Atlantic Ocean. But on salmon farms, they're reduced to swimming in tiny circles for years and eating small man made pellets. And so I think for a lot of environmentalists and naturalists, it's seen almost as a crime against nature. You know, one researcher I talked to compared it to trying to farm tigers, which was a pretty illuminating analogy to me.

[Noel King]

Yeah, it is. In the second half of the show, we're gonna get into some detail about what exposes have found on fish farms. It is not for the weak of heart, but if you are a salmon farmer, how do you make the argument for what you do?

[Kenny Torella]

Well, the first part has to do with how, like I mentioned earlier, salmon and fish in general tend to have a low carbon footprint compared to, say, beef or pork. But the other counterargument is essentially that if people want to eat a lot of salmon and they do, and there aren't a lot left in the wild, we have no choice but to farm them.

[Noel King]

Has farming salmon actually helped the numbers of wild salmon rebound? I mean, if overfishing was the initial problem, and the solution is, okay, we're going to farm salmon and let the guys out in the wild, do their thing. Was the solution really a solution?

[Kenny Torella]

Likely not, huh? Big picture. You know, research has suggested that there's little to no evidence that farming fish has helped wild populations rebound. And that's largely because a lot of the fish that are caught in the ocean are fed back to farmed fish. According to Stanford's center for Environmental science and policy, one pound of salmon takes about 2.4 pounds of other wild fish to produce, usually sardines, anchovies, mackerel, herring, and so on.

[Coca-Cola Advertiser]

Some of this fish meal does come from fish byproduct and scraps from other fish that have been processed to be eaten. But most of it comes from wild caught fish that are being caught just to feed the salmon. So the effects of salmon on the environment ripple out far beyond the farms themselves to the soy farms and fisheries that feed them.

[Kenny Torella]

But looking specifically just at salmon, farming them is actually herding wild populations in a way that really surprised me as I worked on this story. So since the 1970s, tens of millions of farmed salmon have managed to escape their cages and make their way into the ocean. Thousands of Atlantic salmon that escape from a fish farm to the east of Victoria into the open waters of Puget Sound, the Pacific Ocean.

[Marine Biologist / Expert]

You're introducing a non native invasive species into an environment where you don't know what the potential outcome might be. They will spawn, and they have produced and have done in the past in multiple events. And the progeny they produce are competitively viable, meaning that they can compete successfully and in some cases, superior to our native salmon.

[Kenny Torella]

And when they escape, they either compete for resources with wild salmon or they mate with them, leading to what experts call genetic pollution that has resulted in a whole new hybrid line of salmon, which have a harder time surviving in the wild. And what that means is that the farming of salmon, which was intended to give wild salmon populations a break, actually created this new challenge for them.

[Noel King]

All right, so the initial problem that was meant to be solved by salmon farming has not actually, actually been solved. And then, Kenny, as your reporting later discovered, scientists have been making some really, really interesting discoveries about what fish actually feel. You want to stick around? We'll talk about that next.

[Kenny Torella]

Let's do it.

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[Atlassian Advertiser]

Today.

[Kenny Torella]

It's today. Next day.

[Noel King]

Today Explained is back with Vox's Kenny Torella, who's been looking at aquaculture, which is a fancy way of saying fish farming. Kenny. So we talked in the first half about the process. This is not something that I had ever given a ton of thought to, but increasingly I feel very bad about that. Is it just me?

[Kenny Torella]

It's not just you.

[Noel King]

Okay.

[Kenny Torella]

Our colleague Marina Blotnikova recently wrote a story about the scientific debate over fish pain. And she talked about how a lot of us probably never think about because they're hard to empathize with, unlike, say, a cow.

[Noel King]

No big eyes.

[Kenny Torella]

Exactly.

And while fish make sounds to communicate with one another, we can't hear them.

So in many ways, they're kind of alien to us. Even animal rights activists have largely ignored fish, even though they are farmed in far higher numbers than pigs and chickens. You know, humanity's default attitude towards fish has largely just been that they're stupid, that they have incredibly short memories, which is a myth, it turns out, or that they're kind of these mindless automatons. Though we now know that some fish species can use tools. They can be trained to perform tricks and solve problems.

And they can even memorize cues or sounds for months.

[Noel King]

All right, so what you're telling me is fish are a lot more like my beloved dog than I would have assumed. And the thing is, I would never want to hurt my dog. What do we know about this big question, whether fish feel pain.

[Kenny Torella]

Yeah, it's a really big question that scientists have been poking at a lot over the last couple of decades. For a long time, the scientific consensus was essentially that fish don't feel painful or much of anything at all. But it was a belief without a lot of evidence. Few scientists had really looked into the question. But in the early 2000s, a small group of researchers at the University of Edinburgh began to think seriously about fish. And their work has really helped to shift the consensus around fish pain. They've made a lot of really interesting discoveries, and the first is that they discovered that fish have nociceptors, which are neurons that send signals to the central nervous system when an animal is injured. And they also conducted experiments designed to figure out whether fish really feel pain, to make sure that they weren't just reacting reflexively to painful stimuli. And what these researchers found was that, yes, fish do feel pain. As an example, when they prodded goldfish and trout with needles, they showed activity in parts of their brains associated with higher processing. Or when rainbow trout were injected with painful substances like acid or bee venom, their respiration rates spiked, their appetites dropped, and they rubbed the affected areas against the walls of their tanks in an effort to soothe themselves. Taken together, this research really shifted the consensus on whether fish can feel pain. And now the belief that they can't is a pretty minority view in the scientific community. And just to step back for a moment, what this means is that during the same decades that scientists learned fish can feel pain, the seafood industry began to factory farm them in enormous numbers and in pretty terrible conditions.

[Noel King]

If they feel pain, are they conscious? Are fish thinking, observing their environment, et cetera?

[Kenny Torella]

Yeah. So to kind of break it down, you know, pain is a sensation that fish can feel, but to experience it, they have to be conscious. Or as our colleague Marina Blatnikova put it, to have something that it is like to be them, to subjectively experience the world. And, you know, what she wrote about is that we can never really know what it's like to be a fish or a dog, or even a fellow human, for that matter. We can only really attest to our own individual consciousness. But I think, you know, few doubt that pigs and chickens on factory farms can consciously feel pain. That is a kind of an extreme minority view. And at some point, I think we have to extend that benefit of the doubt to fish. And there's a lot of evidence as to why we should. Hmm.

[Noel King]

All right, now that we know that fish feel pain, I want you to tell me what you learned about mistreatment on farms. What exactly is happening?

[Kenny Torella]

People who study and try to agitate against fish farming Liken them to underwater factory farms, where you see a lot of the same problems on factory farms, on land being replicated in aquaculture.

A lot of farming industries, including the fish industry, they'll set their own industry standards. But I talked to one woman named Erin Wing, who has spent her career investigating factory farms, and. And she is really skeptical of these industry standards.

[Erin Wing]

It's sort of like they're making their own rules that are going to best serve them.

[Kenny Torella]

She worked undercover at a salmon hatchery in Maine. And this is where the fish are born and raised for the first year or so of their life until they're put out into those floating cages in the ocean.

[Erin Wing]

In this facility, there were at least 25,000 to 100,000 fish per tank, and they were swimming in circles constantly, day after day, all day long.

[Kenny Torella]

The hatchery she worked at in 2019 is owned by cook aquaculture, which is one of the world's biggest seafood companies. And while working there for a few months, she witnessed really terrible treatment. Just huge numbers of fish in tiny tanks, Diseases that were eating away at the fish.

[Erin Wing]

There were fish who were dying due to fungal infections, and then fish who were afflicted with fungus infections who ended up being killed by the workers.

[TODAY Explained Announcer]

Fungus ate away his face.

[Kenny Torella]

Kill him.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

He won't make it.

[Kenny Torella]

No, he's gonna just suffer until he's fucking dead. Fish being euthanized by being repeatedly slammed against the sides of tanks, or even.

[Erin Wing]

In some cases, against metal poles. And in one case, there was a worker who slammed a fish against a metal pole and then proceeded to stomp on the fish when they were unsuccessful in killing the fish by slamming them against the pole.

[Kenny Torella]

And then you also have breeding issues. So, for example, on land, chickens have been bred to grow really big, really fast, Basically as a way to get more meat out of each animal. But this has caused a number of health issues, and you see the exact same thing being replicated on fish farms.

[Erin Wing]

On my last day of the investigation, I spoke with the manager of the facility, and he saw me looking into a bin that was filled with fish who had been discarded, and they were slowly suffocating to death. And he approached me, and he just happened to say, yeah, it's really rough the way that we kill them. It Used to bum me out. But over the years, you kind of get desensitized.

[Kenny Torella]

They just suffocate Fish, too. It's so rough. Over the years, you kind of get desensitized. Animals die.

[Erin Wing]

I think these workers, they spend all day, all day, every day with these animals. I think they know that the animals can feel pain, but there isn't space for them to connect with the animals by way of being empathetic toward them or compassionate. There's no room for that in fish farming. I don't think.

[Noel King]

I really like fish. I have always viewed it, or long viewed it as kind of less sinful than meat and chicken. But when I read your piece, I went straight to my refrigerator and I put the lox in the freezer and tried not to think about it. And it will be a while, I'm telling you truthfully, before I eat fish again. So I wonder, Kenny, at the end of the day, should we just not be eating fish?

[Kenny Torella]

Well, I don't think the choice necessarily needs to be all or nothing. I myself am a longtime vegan, but I tell people all the time that simply just eating less meat, especially from the species that tend to be treated the worst, like fish, but. But also chickens, that can make a really big difference. But I also learned something really interesting. Some fish species are just way less farmable than others. A project called Fairfish analyzed how certain species are farmed and whether their farming conditions could ever be compatible with their behavioral and welfare and environmental needs. And Fairfish found that out of the hundred species they analyzed, only two had the potential to be treated decently on farms. And those were tilapia and carp. And to be clear, this doesn't mean they are treated decently. You know, most tilapia and carp farms tend to overcrowd their animals. They face a lot of disease and other welfare problems. But to me, that study was really illuminating in that it showed how quickly the seafood industry has domesticated and commercialized fish production without taking a break to say, well, what do they need? Does this make sense? Should we be much more selective with the species we farm? And one person I talked to, Becca Franks, she's an environmental studies professor at New York University, had a bolder position. She basically believes that the fish farming industry should switch to forms of seafood that just have way fewer welfare and environmental concerns. One of those is obviously seaweed. They're plants. But the other one is bivalves, which includes oysters, mussels, and scallops. They can be farmed in a really environmental, friendly manner. And there's also a lot of skepticism that they are even sentient, that they can feel pain. So she presented that as kind of an alternative to the future of seafood is choosing species where we don't have to grapple with all these trade offs.

[Noel King]

What I hear you saying is it is not all or nothing. People just need to be careful, conscious about what they're eating and where it's from. Which Kenny, I will tell you I feel optimistic about because the whole point of aquaculture in the first place was that people were aware that we were overfishing and it was bad for fish and was bad for oceans. So it's not like this is completely hopeless.

[Kenny Torella]

Yeah, I think the last 50 years of the rapid rise of fish farming teaches us a few things about food systems is that they are really complex and that maybe we kind of got ahead over our skis with rapidly domesticating and farming 200 aquatic species when the whole fish kingdom is incredibly complex and diverse and is not a monolith.

My hope is that in the future, as fish farming grows bigger and bigger, while at the same time we learn more and more about the environmental consequences, the impact of impact on the fish themselves, the seafood industry can be much more intentional and careful about how seafood is produced.

[Noel King]

Kenny Torella is a senior reporter for vox's Future Perfect section. Abishai Artsy produced today's show. Miranda Kennedy edited, Kelly Wessinger and Laura Bullard check the fact. And David Tadashore is our engineer. Today's episode was supported by animal charity evaluators which received a grant from Earthshare. One last thing. This holiday season, if you sign up for a VOX membership, your VOX membership goes further than it does the rest of the year when you join VOX as an annual member. Now we will gift a free membership to a reader who can't afford a membership. By joining Today, you'll get 30% off off your annual membership and we will match it. Go to vox.commembers to join. I'm Noel King. It's Today explained.

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[TODAY Explained Announcer]

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[Marine Biologist / Expert]

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