Gen Sex

Summary

Today, Explained: Gen Sex – A Deep Dive into Middle-Aged Women and Sexuality

Released: March 23, 2025 | Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King | Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

---

Introduction: Exploring Gen X’s Sexual Landscape

In the "Gen Sex" episode of Today, Explained, Vox delves into the evolving sexual lives of middle-aged women, particularly focusing on Generation X. Hosts Jonathan Hill and Jacqueline Hill navigate through personal stories, expert insights, and cultural analyses to shed light on how women in their 40s and 50s are redefining their relationships and sexual experiences in 2025.

---

Personal Narratives: Mireille Silkoff and Sarah’s Experiences

Mireille Silkoff, author of a poignant piece on aging and sexuality, shares her transformative journey post-divorce. Initially fearing a "spinsterish existence," Silkoff recounts how newfound relationships led her to experiences she hadn’t encountered even in her 20s:

“[...] a lot of wonderful new relationships with a lot of wonderful men and the kind of sex that I don't think I had even had in my 20s. Like a total new world of openness of and exploration and interest and comfort in myself and even, I dare say, wisdom.” (01:26)

Her narrative resonates widely, garnering significant attention and a book deal, highlighting a generational shift in perspectives towards aging and sexuality.

Sarah, a listener from Chicago, provides a relatable account of navigating the dating scene in her 40s:

“I'm happy to meet someone for a casual encounter, but I just don't want the responsibility of like having to please that person every day. And that just sounds exhausting to me.” (03:40)

She emphasizes a shift from using sex as an entry point into relationships to seeking more fulfilling and less obligatory interactions.

---

The Dynamics of Older Women Dating Younger Men

The episode explores the increasing trend of middle-aged women dating younger men, a dynamic more visible in contemporary media and societal interactions. Sarah notes:

“I feel like as I get older, my type is younger. I tend to be attracted to guys like maybe five years younger than me.” (04:20)

This preference is partly attributed to perceived advantages in energy levels and sexual compatibility, with Sarah observing that younger men today are often more attuned and considerate in sexual relationships:

“Younger guys tend to be better at sex because they, you know, feel like they care about, you know, how I feel.” (05:53)

---

Shifting Cultural Norms: From the 80s and 90s to Today

Mireille Silkoff provides a historical context, comparing the sexual landscape of the 80s and 90s to the present day:

“Sexual harassment at work ran rampant. We did not talk about consent then the way we do now.” (09:06)

This era posed significant challenges for Gen X women, who had to navigate a less supportive environment regarding sexual autonomy and consent. The advancements in societal attitudes and the availability of resources today have empowered women to reclaim and redefine their sexual identities.

---

Biological and Social Awakening: Expert Insights

Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall, a human sexuality researcher, elucidates the interplay between biological changes and social liberation in middle-aged women's sexual lives:

“Sex for women tends to get better as we age simply because we're more experienced and we know our bodies better and we know what our bodies need and we know what we want and we know what we desire.” (15:07)

She emphasizes that while hormonal changes like decreased estrogen levels can affect sexual comfort, the increased self-awareness and communication skills of mature women often lead to more satisfying sexual experiences.

Furthermore, Dr. Hall addresses the lingering societal misconceptions:

“We are getting the message that we are just no longer valuable sexually, that we're no longer desirable sexually.” (15:17)

Her research advocates for a broader understanding and acceptance of female sexuality across all ages.

---

Pop Culture Representations: Progress and Pitfalls

The discussion transitions to the portrayal of middle-aged women in media. Jonathan Hill critiques current representations, such as the film "Baby Girl":

“I think it's totally unrealistic. ... I'd like to see a different version of a woman in Baby Girl.” (25:34)

He argues that while there are glimpses of progress, like increased nominations for older actresses, the overall landscape remains dominated by younger women. Comparisons to iconic shows like "Golden Girls" highlight the persistent stereotypes and limited diversity in depicting women's lives and bodies as they age.

Lisa Whittington Hill, author of Girls Interrupted, contributes by analyzing how pop culture often fails to authentically represent the complexities of middle-aged women's lives, perpetuating unrealistic standards and limited narratives.

---

Online Dating and Modern Relationship Dynamics

The episode also touches upon the role of online dating in facilitating connections for middle-aged women. Dr. Hall shares her personal experiences:

“The man I'm currently with now I did meet online and, you know, I actually loved online dating.” (12:18)

This platform offers a space for older women to explore relationships beyond traditional norms, often connecting them with partners who are more aligned with their current desires and lifestyles.

---

Looking Forward: Hope and Continual Change

In contemplating the future, participants express cautious optimism. Jonathan Hill appreciates the strides made in representation but remains mindful of ongoing challenges:

“I like to be hopeful. ... But I am a Gen X cynic, so I'm always cautious as well.” (27:57)

Dr. Hall echoes the need for continued progress, urging middle-aged women to embrace their sexuality confidently while societal attitudes and media portrayals gradually align with this empowerment.

---

Conclusion: Embracing a Renewed Sexual Identity

"Gen Sex" encapsulates a significant transformation in how middle-aged women perceive and engage with their sexuality. Through personal stories, expert analyses, and cultural critiques, the episode underscores the importance of self-awareness, societal support, and authentic representations in fostering a fulfilling sexual life for Gen X women and beyond.

By highlighting both the progress made and the hurdles that remain, Today, Explained encourages listeners to reflect on and embrace the evolving narratives surrounding aging and sexuality.

---

Produced and sound designed by Victoria Chamberlain. Edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, and engineered by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter, who also composed the music.

Transcript

[Jonathan Hill]

PayPal lets you pay all your pals.

[Sarah]

Like your dinner dates.

[Jonathan Hill]

How are we splitting the bill? Um, evenly.

[Sarah]

Well, I only got soup.

[Jonathan Hill]

Let's Split it on PayPal based on what people ate.

[Mireille Silkoff]

Get started in the PayPal app. A PayPal account is required to send and receive money.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Jonathan Hill]

Hi there.

[Sarah]

This is Sarah. What are we talking about?

[Jonathan Hill]

Charlotte's boyfriend's balls.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Hey, y'all. I'm Jon Glyn Hill, and this is. Explain it to me. Today we're talking about doing it. Specifically middle aged ladies doing it and doing it well. This week we're giving some attention to a generation that we don't talk about much. Gen X. We're starting off with Mireille Silkoff, who wrote a piece about her own experiences with aging and one of the ways that getting older has been pretty great.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

I split up from my ex in my late 40s, and when I came out of it, I just thought that what lay ahead of me would be a pretty spinsterish existence. I was really, really sick for a long time in my adulthood, and my marriage was very long and there were two children, and I just felt like, well, who's gonna want this bag of problems? And now I'm 50 and, you know, that's what life is gonna be like. Gonna be orange pekoe tea in Masterpiece Theater and taking care of my kids and hopefully remobilizing my writing, and that's it. And then instead, what happened was, you know, a lot of wonderful new relationships with a lot of wonderful men and the kind of sex that I don't think I had even had in my 20s. Like a total new world of openness of and exploration and interest and comfort in myself and even, I dare say, wisdom. And it felt revelatory. And at first, as I write in the article, I felt like this was my weird, cool story. Like, you know, oh, like I really did it right, you know, or whatever. But then, you know, as stuff started coming out in the culture and some of my other friends divorced and had similar situations to mine, I realized that, you know, what I had been doing or what I had experienced post marriage was really part of a much larger cultural story that might ring true for many women in America and beyond today.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Mireille's piece in the New York Times Magazine resonated. It went viral and it seems like it's definitely ringing true. I mean, she got a book deal out of it, but how common is her experience really? We asked you what it's been like navigating sex in your 40s and 50s, and listener Sarah answered. She called in from Chicago and she's been having a great time dating and not looking for a relationship in this era of her life.

[Sarah]

I'm happy to meet someone for a casual encounter, but I just don't want the responsibility of like having to please that person every day. And that just sounds exhausting to me. And I think, like, for me, sex has always been like an entry point into a relationship. So I think it's, you know, I'm kind of framing it differently now. Eventually someday I may want to pursue like a life partner, but I just feel like now isn't the time and a lot of it is because of the dating no man's land in the early 40s.

[Jacqueline Hill]

So who are you into these days? Like, what does your ideal look like? Like, do you have a type?

[Sarah]

I feel like as I get older, my type is younger. I tend to be attracted to guys like maybe five years younger than me. I think the last like four or five guys I dated were about five years younger than me. So that's kind of my sweet spot right now. I always say I have a reverse dad complex. My dad was so good that I'm not interested in older.

[Jacqueline Hill]

I feel like older women and younger guys is kind of a thing that's going on right now, you know, in movies and tv.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

I'm too old for you?

[Mireille Silkoff]

I don't know.

[Jonathan Hill]

You think I don't like power?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

No, I think you like to be.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Told what to do. Is that something you're seeing too? And do you see it in your friend group or does it just seem like, you know, a pop culture thing?

[Sarah]

I feel like women age differently than men. I think I've noticed this as I like, see someone I haven't seen for a really long time that I went to high school with or something. And the women look great and the guys are looking kind of old. So I feel like I don't know the older woman, younger man. It's like they can keep up with us a little bit better. Maybe energy wise too, I think.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Yeah, it's, it's interesting that you say that. Like, I remember I went to my 10 year college reunion and all of the women, we were like, wow, all the women look Great. And the guys are here. Do you feel like it's more acceptable to date younger guys than maybe it was for older generations? Like, do you think it's happening more now? It's more acceptable now.

[Sarah]

100. You know, there's something else that I think is interesting that's happening with that. I feel like younger men kind of grew up in a little bit different era about, like, sex. And I have found that the younger guys I'm with tend to be better at sex because they, you know, feel like they care about, you know, how I feel. Whereas, you know, I feel like men my age kind of didn't really have access to that information when I was growing up.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Does it seem like sex is better than for you now than it was when you were in your 20s?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I think, like, sex is less of a tool now than it was in my 20s and 30s. I feel like it was an entryway to a relationship. Right. That it was like sort of a bargaining piece to get someone to, you know, be in a committed relationship with me. And I feel like letting all of that go has kind of brought like, the fun back to it.

[Jacqueline Hill]

When did that switch happen for you?

[Sarah]

Turning 40 and seeing some of my older friends going through divorces, having been in, you know, multiple decade long marriages and then dating and having fun, and I think that was inspirational.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Do you think it's kind of like a you're only as old as you feel thing? I mean, I don't know. It's just the way that like 40s and 50s are represented now are so different. Like, we used to have golden girls and now, like, I don't know, J. Lo is like spinning on a pole at 50.

[Sarah]

You know, they're killing it out there. They're killing it. I feel like the media and just like the current climate has given us permission to spin on a pole at 50 if we want to.

[Jacqueline Hill]

So things have gotten better for women in their 40s and 50s. But why? What's so different between the dates dating scene in 2025 and the dating scene in 1995? That's after the break.

[Jonathan Hill]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

This week on Unexplainable, the Final installment of Good Robot, our four part series on the stories we tell about AI.

[Jonathan Hill]

So what I want you to do first is I want you to open.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

Up ChatGPT this time the robots and.

[Jonathan Hill]

I want you to say I'm going to give you three episodes of a series in order come for our jobs.

[Sarah]

Why are you laughing?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

I don't know.

[Jonathan Hill]

It's like a little creepy.

[Sarah]

Good Robot, a four part series about.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

AI from Julia Longoria and unexplainable wherever you listen.

[Mireille Silkoff]

Foreign.

[Jacqueline Hill]

This is. Explain it to me. I'm Jacqueline Hill and we're back talking about sex, women and aging. Mireille says that things were different in the 80s and 90s. It was a lot harder to navigate sex as a woman. Sexual harassment at work ran rampant. We did not talk about consent then the way we do now. And that was the basis for Gen X's formative sexual years. It was weird and messy and confusing and often dangerous in ways things aren't as much now.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

It was tough out there in the 90s.

[Mireille Silkoff]

Indeed, I did have a relationship with.

[Jonathan Hill]

Ms. Lewinsky that was not appropriate.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Men act like idiots to a degree.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

Because they want us to.

[Jonathan Hill]

What do you do like when you guys are making love? I'm sure Tommy's good because I saw you in a thong on your most recent vacation. Where are you guys in Tahiti or something?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

And there was a lot of sex in the 90s, so there was kind of like a hardcore boot camp, if you will. You know, divorce is happening later than ever, right? And you know, divorce and sexual exploration for women is a very old story that you get divorced and suddenly find a little piece of yourself sexually. And so I feel like that's kind of a big part of the story as well, that you're seeing a lot of women divorcing later in life and so having a bit of this sexual rediscovery later and finding that everything still works sometimes, much to their surprise, that desire is still there, that sexual function is still there. That thanks to the amazing strides that Gen Z and millennials have made to opening up what's acceptable sexually, that acceptance is still there.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Why do you think this is happening with Gen X women in particular? Why is this generation so different from boomers?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

Boomers were constricted by a lot of societal mores that were, for lack of a better way of putting it, very mid century. Right? And you know, free love and all of this stuff were basically boomer concep. Right? But I see Gen X as being a generation of women who really were plunked into an extremely sexualized landscape and were needing to fend for themselves. There wasn't a lot of support for how to navigate, you know, bosses who were sexually predatory, for instance, or whatever. There wasn't a lot of belief, there wasn't, you know, there were a lot of issues when it came to harassment, but there also wasn't, there weren't a lot of roadmaps, right, for how to have sex or how to be a sexual person or whatever. And that was both good and bad. Right? Because many women, for instance, didn't experience orgasm because they just couldn't figure out how and their male partners couldn't figure out how. And so it just didn't happen. And I feel like that wouldn't happen. Now you've got things like omg yes, for instance, which is like a website where you can find out how to have a female orgasm. Like, you know, it's a much more open environment now.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Okay, so you're a Gen X woman living in a Gen Z world. You get to take advantage of the good and the bad. You're dating. How have you been doing on the apps?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

I did both. I mean, I, I, I met my first boyfriend post marriage just through friends.

[Jacqueline Hill]

I love that. Yes. First boyfriend post marriage, yes.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

And then my second boyfriend. No.

[Jacqueline Hill]

This is great.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

I'm not going to go through the numbers, but the man I'm currently with now I did meet online and, you know, I actually loved online dating.

[Jacqueline Hill]

What do you hope for middle aged women moving forward, especially when it comes to sex, when it comes to desire, when it comes to relationships.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

What I want for middle aged women now, right, so I'm talking about the elder millennials and the Gen X women who, who are middle aged now is for them to seize the moment, to see that we are living in an era where a number of factors have come together in a perfect storm to create a truly interesting, generative, wonderful and joyful possibility for women to be sexual at the age of 50 or whatever it is. Things don't last forever, right? And like, I'm not gonna be like the boomers who are like, we're forever young. We're never gonna blublin baloney. You know, once you get into, you know, later decades than your 50s or what, you know, things change, priorities change, body changes, illness comes into the picture. You know, there's all kinds of things that change. And so what I would love to see is women who are able to indulge in this moment, whether they are married, whether they're not married, you know, do it with the partner you're married to. If you're not married, go out there and have confidence that there are people that want you, that there are people that are interested in you. And often they're younger. I want women to really, really. And for women who aren't into having sex or a very active sex life or who can't have a very active sex life at the age of 50, I want them to still bask in the glory of the fact that for the first time in, I would say all of humanity, the middle aged female body has grown important.

[Jacqueline Hill]

So that's how middle aged women are feeling about sex. But is this awakening just social or is there something biological to it?

[Mireille Silkoff]

I am. I'm Dr. Windasha Jenkins hall and I am a human sexuality researcher and educator. My interest deeply are into women's health and sexuality. And really, now that I'm 37, just looking at how our sex and sexuality changes as we age.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Okay, so remember how Murray said that middle aged women are sometimes surprised to find that everything's still working down there? Dr. Jenkins hall told us there's a reason for that.

[Mireille Silkoff]

We're getting the message that we are just no longer valuable sexually, that we're no longer desirable sexually. And we tend to compare the bodies and the experiences of women in our middle age to those that are in their early 20s. And so we get that social and cultural messaging, but also as moving toward menopause. So for those of us who are going that perimenopause, menopausal area, that our bodies are going to change, so we're going to be having more problems because our estrogen levels are going down, we're going to be getting hair in crazy places, hot flashes. And so sex is just going to be uncomfortable. So the reality is, yes, bodies are changing. So yes, as we get closer to perimenopause and menopause, yes, estrogen does go down. Yes, we will see those changes with the, with the vagina just due to those hormonal changes. However, that does not necessarily necessarily mean that sex just goes away, that we're not going to be desirable, that we're not going to be able to go out and live and have our best sexual lives. Actually, sex for women tends to get better as we age simply because we're more experienced and we know our bodies better and we know what our bodies need and we know what we want and we know what we desire. And so even with those things that are happening to our bodies, we're starting to find Ways that work around that. So we're not afraid of lube. We're starting to find ways to adjust with our changing mobility. So sex is not dying. It's just changing and looking different. And that's just something that is not highlighted or something that we don't see in. In the media or mainstream, in mainstream culture. So typically, when it comes to the vagina, as we get older, if you. If you use. If you use it, you don't lose it. And the vagina is a muscle. It's an organ, and it's a muscle. So if we use it more often, we can continue to have the best sex of our lives. And when I say have sex, that means partnered and solo, because you don't always have to have a partner to have sex. So. But I think just socially, and how we're conditioned to understand sex, how we are conditioned to understand pleasure, how we're conditioned to, I would say, our sexual scripts and what, quote, unquote, women are supposed to be doing during sex, how we're supposed to be the pleasers, Right. And men are the receivers. And a lot of times you're focusing on your partner's pleasure as opposed to your own. Heterosexual women tend to be bound by that a little bit more versus queer identifying women or women in the LGBTQIA community. Right. So those are conversations that we don't tend to have as much. So, yes, I think we're starting to see more so of a sexual awakening for cishet women. Sexuality is a journey. We are sexual from the womb to the tomb. And understanding that who we are sexually, when we start having sex, whether that means as a teenager, it's going to change when you hit your 20s, it's going to change when you hit your 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond. So a lot of times we are caught up to think that, hey, we should be pleasers, or our partners come first, or our sexual experiences were great if our partners came, but did you come? So understanding that your pleasure is your responsibility and that we have to learn our bodies, that we have to say, hey, at this point in my life, this is what I like, versus this is what I don't like. And be able to communicate that with our partners, because the more comfortable we get with ourselves, we can better communicate with our partners, and that means that we can have better sex at any age.

[Jacqueline Hill]

So that's how sex shows up and works in real life. But what about on TV and the big screen? The rise of the older woman as a sex symbol after this break.

[Jonathan Hill]

If fashion is Your thing. Ebay is it?

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

Ebay's where I find all my favorites.

[Jonathan Hill]

From handbags to iconic streetwear. All authenticated for real this time. A little supreme, some Gucci. I even have that vintage Prada on my watch list. That's why ebay's my go to for.

[Sarah]

All my go tos.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

Yeah, ebay the place for new pre.

[Sarah]

Loved vintage and rare fashion.

[Jonathan Hill]

EBay, things people love. Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage. All for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com cancel anytime terms apply.

[Jacqueline Hill]

This is Explain it to me. And now we're going to get into the depictions of middle aged women on the screen. Things have gotten better. But is better enough? Is it realistic? That's what we wanted to ask Lisa Whittington Hill, no relation. She's the author of Girls Interrupted, a book about the ways pop culture fails women. You know, we've been talking about this idea that women are hitting middle age and for one reason or another experiencing this newfound almost freedom around sex. You know, freedom from these hangups of their 20s, freedom from societal expectations of what sex could be, what it should look like. And I wonder how much of that has to do with what we're seeing in pop culture. You know, there's the baby girl of it all, there's the substance of it all, which was a huge commentary on women and aging.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

One single injection unlocks your DNA and will release another version of yourself.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Do you think there's a. There, there is that something? Are there more portrayals of women in middle age?

[Jonathan Hill]

I think there are. I mean, I think we have to be kind of careful how we think of middle age. I think Hollywood and pop culture kind of thinks of middle age as any woman over the age of like 35 or 40. I think certainly we are seeing more kind of older, older women in Hollywood. Certainly Baby Girl was big and this led to this kind of conversation about age gaps in relationships. And certainly we usually see an older man and a younger woman. I was reading too, kind of after Baby Girl, there's this new trend kind of now where people are widening kind of the age range on their dating apps. So this is kind of having an effect. But certainly Substance, which was a movie I loved and have watched many, many times since it came out, certainly this conversation about older women and about aging. So I, I think the thing we always have to be careful about is not thinking, okay, like, Hollywood's ageism problem is solved because we have Baby Girl or we have the substance. That kind of thing.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Yeah. It just seems, I don't know, like there's this major difference between. And just like that and I don't know, Golden Girls, which. It's like, oh, these are about women in the same age range, which is so wild.

[Jonathan Hill]

They really are. And when I was growing up, certainly as Gen X, those were kind of. The golden girls were a depiction of middle aged older women that I saw. Lean over a mirror sometime and take a look at yourself. I think you better take a sedative before you look, you know, it was Golden girls. It was Mrs. Roper on Three's Company. It's macrame. I'm making a holder for my pot. It was Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days. After I fix your breakfast in the morning, who do you think clears the.

[Mireille Silkoff]

Table and washes the dishes and scrubs.

[Dr. Windasha Jenkins Hall]

The floor in there? And does.

[Jonathan Hill]

And certainly that taught me when I was younger, you know, here's a particular idea of, you know, what older women should look like, how much space they can take up, what they should have accomplished, what their lives look like. You know, the depictions we see now are a lot different certainly than Golden Girls or Mrs. Roper, for sure.

[Jacqueline Hill]

I kind of think of like when Obama was elected and everyone was like, oh, my gosh, we did it, y'all. No more racism. Cool.

[Jonathan Hill]

Everyone's like, patting themselves on the back, like, problem solved.

[Sarah]

Cross that off the list.

[Jonathan Hill]

Yeah.

[Jacqueline Hill]

What does the data actually show when it comes to portrayals of, you know, older women in the media and pop culture in general?

[Jonathan Hill]

Sure. I think it's really interesting because I remember this article came out, New York Times article came out in, in 2021, and it was right after the Emmys had happened and the Emmys had a bunch of older women nominated. It was, you know, the year that Kate Winslet was nominated for mayor of Easttown and Gillian Anderson for the Crown and Jean Smart for Hacks, sort of saying, oh, you know, look at all these older women nominated and the ageism problem has been fixed. And. But then you actually look at the data and it is still younger women, younger actresses getting roles. So we kind of see this on stage. And I think that's what I talk about. You have to be careful how you kind of think of it, you know, just because we see all these women on stage doesn't mean the problem's been solved. The numbers still kind of show that it is very much younger women, young, younger actresses getting roles in Hollywood.

[Jacqueline Hill]

We talked to Mireille Silcough, who wrote that piece about how Gen X women are kind of uniquely positioned to be freer about sex, thanks to kind of like all these different factors. Also, can I just say, Canadians, y'all are willing to go there in a way that Americans do not tend to be. We are.

[Jonathan Hill]

We are a polite nation that is not afraid to go there. I mean, I thought that article is. And I agreed with so much of it about. Certainly at my age, I have way less hang ups. I care less about stuff. I wish I could travel back in time and tell my younger self not to care so much about certain things.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Let's talk about the movie Baby Girl. I understand you have some strong feelings about it. Did you think it sets kind of an unrealistic standard on what aging could and should be?

[Jonathan Hill]

Definitely. So I had a lot of. I resisted seeing Baby Girl for a very long time. I was sort of reading about it and sort of hearing about it, but I kind of resisted watching it. I think it's interesting that in the movie, Nicole Kidman's character is 49, but Nicole Kidman is actually 57 in real life. I think that's interesting. 49. I think it's totally unrealistic. You know, like, Nicole Kidman is a beautiful white woman, wealthy in the movie. I think, you know, what I would really like to see is a baby girl with someone who doesn't look like Nicole Kidman. Someone who is not stereotypical. This idea of what we think of when we think of beauty, She's a thin white woman for sure. I'd like to see a different version of a woman in Baby Girl.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Nicole Kidman. One thing she gonna do, she gonna play a distressed, rich white woman on either a prestige drama series or a movie.

[Jonathan Hill]

She's gonna wear a fabulous bunch of wigs doing it too, right? She's got. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she's gonna take time out to tell us about the power of movies. Somehow heartbreak feels good in a place like this.

[Jacqueline Hill]

Do you think society, and you know, by extension, movies, tv, do you think society's ready to kind of like, deal with a realistic depiction of the aging female body?

[Jonathan Hill]

God, no. No, not at all. I wish. I wish it was. I wish. You know, I was thinking about this. I was having a conversation with my best friend last night and we were sort of talking about representations of middle aged women in pop culture and we were saying that we would really love to see a show like Girls but about like depicting middle aged women, you know, these kind of messy, complicated lives that they have. And you know, we were talking about Lena Dunham, everything she went through, showing her own body and all the kind of negativity and body shaming. But I would love to see a show like that. Like, I would love to see a show where middle aged women aren't always married or have been married or don't always have kids. I think when middle aged women are depicted often on screen, there is this particular idea of what their lives should look like and what they should have achieved and what it looks like to be a middle aged woman. And I am not married. I, I don't have kids. You know, I'm caring for an aging parent, you know, those kind of things. I would like to see more depicted. I think there is this particular representation.

[Jacqueline Hill]

How hopeful are you that we'll get those portrayals as time goes on?

[Jonathan Hill]

You know, I like to think, I like to be hopeful. You know, I think one of the things I really loved about the substance and seeing Demi Moore get all this kind of recognition and award nominations is it does make me hopeful. And seeing that really seeing there was Demi Moore for the substance, Pamela Anderson for the Last Showgirl, I was loving kind of seeing all that, which it does give me hope. But I am a Gen X cynic, so I'm always cautious as well, you know.

[Jacqueline Hill]

All right, Lisa, thank you so much for explaining this to us.

[Jonathan Hill]

You're welcome.

[Jacqueline Hill]

That's it for this week's show. If you have a question for us, give us a call. Right now we're working on some money related episodes and we'd love to know what questions you have about buying a home or using your credit card in this unpredictable economy. You can leave a voicemail at 1-800-618-8545 or send an email to askvoxox.com bonus points if that email is avoided. Memo. This episode was produced and sound designed by Victoria Chamberlain. It was edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact checked by Melissa Hirsch and engineered by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Christensdotter who also composed the music. I'm your host, Jonathan Hill. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon by.