Generation Gentle Parent

Summary

Today, Explained: Generation Gentle Parent

Episode Title: Generation Gentle Parent
Release Date: January 17, 2025
Host: Noel King
Co-Host: Sean Rameswaram
Produced by: Vox

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Introduction to Gentle Parenting

The episode opens with Noel King highlighting the complexities of gentle parenting, even for seasoned practitioners like influencer Olivia Owen. The discussion sets the stage for exploring the nuances, challenges, and cultural shifts associated with this modern parenting style.

Notable Quote:
Noel King [00:01]: "Gentle parenting is hard even for the super practitioners like influencer Olivia Owen."

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Defining Gentle Parenting

Alison Schaefer, a longtime family counselor and parenting teacher, delves into the formal definition of gentle parenting. Originating from the work of Sarah Ockwell Smith in the UK, gentle parenting emphasizes treating children with empathy, understanding, respect, and healthy boundaries. The goal is to foster cooperation not out of fear, but from a genuine understanding of right behavior.

Notable Quotes:
Olivia Owen [04:29]: "It's just simply treating our children in the way that we would like to be treated ourselves as adults."
Alison Schaefer [04:36]: "The qualities that she would include in there are sort of empathy and understanding, respect, healthy boundaries."

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Historical Context and Generational Shifts

Alison Schaefer provides a historical perspective, contrasting gentle parenting with the authoritative methods prevalent among boomer parents. She explains that traditional parenting aimed at creating obedient children to fit into a hierarchical society, often relying on fear-based discipline. In contrast, gentle parenting seeks to build cooperative children through emotional intelligence and mutual respect.

Notable Quote:
Alison Schaefer [02:38]: "We came from a society where you would have gone into the workforce that was very hierarchical... Obedience was the goal of parenting."

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Expert Insights on Parenting Styles

The conversation shifts to the four primary parenting styles categorized by firmness and friendliness:

1. Autocratic: Very firm, not friendly
2. Permissive: Very friendly, not firm
3. Neglectful: Neither firm nor friendly
4. Democratic (Gentle Parenting): Both firm and friendly

Alison emphasizes that the democratic style is emerging as the preferred method, balancing boundaries with warmth, and fostering a healthy parent-child relationship without relying on punitive measures.

Notable Quote:
Alison Schaefer [08:35]: "The one that I'm talking about, that is the one that we're seeing blossoming... it's the firm and friendly combination."

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Challenges of Adopting Gentle Parenting

Millennial and Gen Z parents face unique challenges in implementing gentle parenting. Common issues include bedtime struggles, morning chaos, picky eating, and managing anxiety in children. The episode discusses how these challenges are exacerbated by the influx of parenting advice available online, leading to confusion and inconsistent application of gentle parenting principles.

Notable Quote:
Alison Schaefer [09:42]: "Parents think they're traumatizing their kids all the time whenever there's a big emotion... it lets the kids really get away with murder."

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Listener Call: Josiah's Perspective

A poignant call from Josiah in Oregon underscores the long-term relational goals of gentle parenting. Josiah rejects authoritarian methods, emphasizing the importance of building a strong, lasting relationship with his children to ensure mutual respect and understanding in the years to come.

Notable Quote:
Josiah [11:20]: "I know that what I'm doing now is making that relationship possible for the rest of our lives so that when they have kids, I'll be able to hold those babies."

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Parenting in Practice: Lauren and Christy's Dialogue

Lauren Nicholson, a 39-year-old sales representative and self-identified "gentle-ish" parent, shares her daily struggles with gentle parenting. Her interactions with her five-year-old daughter exemplify the delicate balance between acknowledging emotions and maintaining boundaries.

In a candid exchange, Lauren discusses the challenges of managing her daughter's tactile sensitivities and morning routines without resorting to punitive measures. Her mother, Christy Doak, contrasts her own traditional parenting style with Lauren's approach, highlighting generational differences and the perceived increase in permissiveness among modern parents.

Notable Quotes:
Noel King [17:39]: "Do you think, Christy, that it was easier to be a parent when you were raising your kids in the 80s and 90s?"
Christy Doak [19:42]: "What did you do with a lot less talking? I'm just gonna say a lot less talking."

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Balancing Empathy and Discipline

Olivia Owen and Christy Doak engage in a discussion about the practical implementation of gentle parenting. While Olivia advocates for acknowledging and addressing children's emotions, Christy emphasizes the importance of setting clear, immediate boundaries to prevent behavioral issues from escalating. This exchange highlights the ongoing debate within gentle parenting circles about the best methods to balance empathy with effective discipline.

Notable Quote:
Olivia Owen [17:28]: "I think gentle parenting is a very hot button topic because... we try to acknowledge their feelings a little bit more."
Christy Doak [20:51]: "There's no consequential parent, no consequences for the behaviors. It's generally a conversation."

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The Impact of Social Media and External Judgment

The episode touches on the heightened sense of judgment modern parents face, amplified by the omnipresence of social media. Lauren feels more scrutinized compared to Christy's experience, leading to increased stress and second-guessing of parenting choices. This societal pressure adds another layer of complexity to adopting and maintaining a gentle parenting style.

Notable Quote:
Christy Doak [21:27]: "Judgment's always been there. It's just now very up in your face because people look at it on the Internet."

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Conclusion: Navigating Modern Parenting

The episode concludes by reinforcing the importance of balance in parenting styles. Both firm boundaries and emotional intelligence are essential for raising well-adjusted children. The dialogue between Lauren and her mother underscores the evolving dynamics of parent-child relationships and the continuous negotiation required to adapt to changing societal norms.

Final Thoughts:
Noel King wraps up by acknowledging the diverse perspectives shared by listeners and experts, emphasizing that effective parenting often requires a tailored approach that considers both the child's needs and the family's unique circumstances.

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Key Takeaways

• Gentle parenting focuses on empathy, understanding, and respectful boundaries, contrasting with traditional authoritarian methods.
• Historical context reveals a shift from obedience-driven parenting to relationship-oriented approaches.
• Modern challenges include managing children's emotional expressions, navigating social media judgment, and balancing discipline with empathy.
• Generational differences highlight varying perceptions and implementations of parenting styles.
• Effective parenting requires a blend of firmness and friendliness to foster healthy, cooperative relationships.

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Notable Quotes Compilation

• Noel King:
  "It's hard to explain this mess to your boomer parents..." [00:35]
  "When parents decide that they wanted to be warmer and friendlier... it's a new approach." [07:00]

• Olivia Owen:
  "Hopefully we don't raise a serial kill." [00:47]
  "We absolutely raise our voice with our child." [20:33]

• Alison Schaefer:
  "Obedience was the goal of parenting..." [02:38]
  "The more you focus on it, the more it's like adding gasoline to a fire." [06:06]

• Christy Doak:
  "Who has that kind of time? No wonder you're late." [18:50]
  "Judgment's always been there. It's just now very up in your face because people look at it on the Internet." [21:27]

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Further Information

For more insights and detailed discussions on parenting styles, listeners are encouraged to tune into future episodes of Today, Explained and visit the Vox website for additional resources and support.

Transcript

[Noel King]

Gentle parenting is hard even for the super practitioners like influencer Olivia Owen.

[Alison Schaefer]

And when you're all done, then we can get you down and you can.

[Lauren Nicholson]

Go play with the toys.

[Noel King]

It's hard to hear a toddler out.

[Christy Doak]

So we definitely will get in the.

[Olivia Owen]

Face of our toddler and ask him how he's feeling and help him have feelings worth.

[Noel King]

It's hard to explain this mess to your boomer parents and I think that they are super skeptical of what we're doing. And it is very, very hard for your parents to understand what you even think you're doing.

[Lauren Nicholson]

It's just exhausting.

[Noel King]

They just go round and round and round talking. So why are we doing it? Ahead Today Explained is for the children.

[Olivia Owen]

Hopefully we don't raise a serial kill.

[Lauren Nicholson]

You think you know what working on your wellness sounds like, but there's one thing that truly sounds like the best thing you can do for your overall wellness. Every great performance starts with a great night's sleep. And every great night's sleep starts with Natrol, their number one drug free sleep aid brand in America. 100% drug free and non habit forming. Get yours now at Target or wherever you shop. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Alison Schaefer]

TODAY TODAY Explained.

[Olivia Owen]

Growing up we had a wooden paddle that was just always sitting out. And if he misbehaved or acted out or talked back, we would get the paddle.

[Lauren Nicholson]

And even though I think this is.

[Olivia Owen]

Effective because we were well behaved kids, when I first had to try to thank my son, I could not bring myself to do it. It just broke my heart.

[Noel King]

We asked you to call the Today Explained hotline if you are gentle parenting and many of you wanted to talk about the way that you were parented. And we get it. The paddle, the wood, the slipper, the switch. Were our boomer parents just kind of mean? Alison Schaeffer is a longtime family counselor and parenting teacher and she says no, they were not. But there really is something to the old chestnut that times have changed the history.

[Alison Schaefer]

If we go back and look at sort of North American culture anyway, we came from a history where the goal of parenting was to raise children who would mind our will to be obedient and that if you think about parenting, the general idea of parenting is preparing the child to be competent to enter the greater world once they leave your home. We came from a society where you would have gone into the workforce that was very hierarchical colonialism where the power was really cloistered up high on top. And you had to mind your will and be subservient if you were going to survive even in the Industrial revolution, to go work the lines or to go work in the mines. And so obedience was the goal of parenting and to raise an obedient child, you know, you really had only two parenting tools that you had to master, and that was either punishments, which we, you know, the corporal punishment with the paddles, or, you know, the threats. But it was a fear. It was fear based. And it worked. It did make kids become obedient. We don't like that so much. We realize that we probably have emotional scars. We know that it hurts self esteem and whatnot. And what we're seeing now with Gentle Parenting and some of these other brand names is really a move towards a different goal altogether, which is about how do we raise a cooperative child who behaves not because they're fearful, but they behave because they realize it's the right code of conduct, it's the good thing to do. That's a very different goal and it's very new. It's very fresh. And that's why we're having this cultural confusion.

[Noel King]

All right, so that brings us to gentle parenting, a term that is all over the Internet. Does it have a formal definition?

[Alison Schaefer]

So we know Sarah Ockwell Smith out of the UK came up with it.

[Olivia Owen]

It's just simply treating our children in the way that we would like to be treated ourselves as adults. But also, if we think back to.

[Lauren Nicholson]

When we were children, what would we like from our parents and our carers? So if we were struggling with something.

[Olivia Owen]

Which perhaps came across in our behavior, how would we like them to treat us?

[Alison Schaefer]

And the qualities that she would include in there are sort of empathy and understanding, respect, healthy boundaries. And then in her particular brand, there is a lot of emphasis on emotions. We're kind of on fire for emotions as a thing right now. As I look at those and dig into what she's writing, I would say, okay. She's most closely aligned with that backbone style of parenting, the firm and friendly. So on that note, I would say, okay, I'm in with Gentle Parenting, I'll give that my stamp of approval from my training and expertise. But then when parents come to me and they say, oh, well, we're trying to practice gentle parenting. So the other day when I was trying to get my kid to get off the swing to come home from the park, I did X, Y and Z and I'm like, oh, see, that's not firm enough. That's you're actually being permissive. So I think it's just being misapplied. I want you to be nice about going home though, okay? We had a great time at the park, but it's time to be nice.

[Lauren Nicholson]

And go home now.

[Olivia Owen]

All right? Okay.

[Noel King]

Come on.

[Alison Schaefer]

We're going home. And when we get home, we will get you some lunch, okay?

[Olivia Owen]

So when your little one makes comments like, you're not nice, I don't like you, don't take it personally. This is a perfect opportunity for you to say, wow, you're feeling really angry, you're feeling really frustrated. That's okay. I'm here for you.

[Alison Schaefer]

I agree that we need to make sure that we understand that feelings are facts and that all emotions are fine. All emotions can be expressed and there's a place for all the rainbow of emotions that we have. But it's the dwelling on it that is the problem. Where we have research that says the more you focus on it, the more it's like adding gasoline to a fire. So if we're suddenly talking about a child's being upset about something and we go on and on thinking we're emotionally co regulating them, then they don't learn self regulation because we're actually dwelling on the fact that they had a bad day at school and the teacher didn't pick them and something bad happened on the school ground. Now, instead of them getting over it and moving on to playing and being distracted and new things at home, now suddenly we've carved out another hour to keep the spotlight on this bad part of their day. And we think we're doing a helpful service.

[Noel King]

When we say gentle parenting, we're both talking about a way of doing things and kind of a vibe of doing things. But I'm assuming that there are other kind of identifiable styles of parenting.

[Alison Schaefer]

There's all these brands. But if you're looking at the research, we basically look at four styles of parenting. And those four styles are categoriz by those two qualities I mentioned at the top, which is about firmness and friendliness. So if you are very firm, but you're not friendly, then you're autocratic. You're ruling with an iron fist. That's the strict parenting that we would recognize. But on the other hand, if you're not firm, you can't hold a boundary. You can't say no to your kid. And you're super friendly. You're like, you know, you're a kind, loving, warm parent, but your kids walk all over you. That's permissive parenting. And if you can do neither firmness nor friendly, then you're a neglectful parent. And the one that I'm talking about, that is the one that we're seeing blossoming that's so important for parents to embrace is that hybrid of being both firm because kids do need limits and boundaries. They do need guidance. They do need to be socialized on how you behave in a group. But we don't need to do it in harsh ways. There are ways that you can learn to enforce a limit and boundary and do training that doesn't require a wooden spoon or a shaming. You know, those types of things from the past. So it's new tools, it's a new approach. And that that's that what we call democratic. That's that firm and friendly combination that seems to be heard because parents go, was that too firm? Was that too friendly?

[Noel King]

Where's the line when millennial parents or parents of younger children. So I'm thinking millennial, maybe older. Gen Z. Even when they come to your office because they're having trouble with their kids, what kinds of things are they typically having trouble with?

[Alison Schaefer]

The common misbehaviors that you see in childhood. So what I would see is things like, I can't get them to bed. They keep coming out of their room. I have to kiss all their teddy bears. I can't get them to stay in the bed, or they crawl into my bed, or I can't get them out the door in the morning. I'm dropping them off late for kindergarten or daycare. The morning is just a screaming match of trying to get to work on time, picky, eating up and down from the table, won't pick up toys, rude attitude. And more recently, I'm really seeing an uptick also in anxiety, which ties to parenting too, believe it or not.

[Noel King]

Have the kids changed or have the parents, like, over time are the I have to kiss every one of the kids animals, they want to get into the bed with me. Was that the same way 20 years ago? Has that always been a thing?

[Alison Schaefer]

The behaviors that we're seeing from the children is because the parenting has changed. And so when parents decided that they wanted to be warmer and friendlier, which I think is fantastic, that quality of parenting is super important. We've learned that we don't want to have small T traumas with our kids. And there is that parenting has an impact. I think we have to remember back in the day, we didn't know that environment changed a child's development. Now we do. And so we're almost apoplectic with concern that if I say the wrong thing or my kid cries if I don't let them in the bed and they get upset about it, I better open a bank account and start putting money away for them to get therapy when they're older. So parents think they're traumatizing their kids all the time whenever there's a big emotion. So they're, they're kind of fearful of their children's big emotions and that lets the kids really get away with murder.

[Noel King]

I think that there is an assumption for people who are not gentle parenting that the folks who are doing it are just, they're just spoiling their kids or they just don't have enough backbone. We got a very interesting call from a listener, Josiah in Oregon, who said the reason that he is rejecting more authoritarian parenting is because he is actually thinking 15 years down the line and what his relationship is like with his kid when his kid is no longer a kid. Let me play you that tape. I had my kids when I was really young and that means that for a lot of their adult life I'm going to be alive and an adult with them. And so I know that what I'm doing now is making that relationship possible for the rest of our lives so that when they have kids, I'll be able to hold those babies.

[Alison Schaefer]

I hear so much pain in his voice. That was, that was emotional for me to listen to. You can tell I really don't know what his childhood was like. But he brings up something really important which is the power of relationship. And that's why we can't be too punitive, because that does break down not only the self esteem of the child, but what it does is it deteriorates the relationship. And we do need family and we do need strong relationships within the family for a healthy development. And especially in the teen years. Because in the teen years your biggest parenting tool is the power of the relationship and your child not wanting to disappoint you when they're out and about in the world because you can't follow them everywhere. You can't go to every party, you can't sit in every classroom to make sure they're not on their phone and that they're listening to the teacher. So you have to really rely on influence rather than control. Being a good disciplinarian does not mean that you are going to lose the relationship. You can be a very good disciplinarian. Kids need leadership. Security comes with boundaries and predictability and stability. And they want to know there's somebody big in the house who's looking after them. Because if you're six years old and you think that, that there's like nobody running this place because you're so permissive and can't set a boundary, and when I cry, I get my way, then I'm the most powerful person in this house and I'm just a kid that's not safe.

[Noel King]

Alison Schaefer, family counselor, longtime parenting teacher. Coming up, a gentle parent speaks.

[Lauren Nicholson]

You think you know what working on your wellness sounds like, but there's one thing that truly sounds like the best thing you can do for your overall wellness. Every great performance starts with a great night's sleep. And every great night's sleep starts with Natrol, their number one drug free sleep aid brand in America, 100% drug free and non habit forming. Get yours now at Target or wherever you shop. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Alison Schaefer]

You're listening to today's raid.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King. We're back with Lauren Nicholson, one of the parents who called in to tell us about gentle parenting her two kids. She's a 39 year old sales rep for a publishing company in Atlanta, Georgia. She has girls five and two and a half. And she describes her own upbringing as old school and somewhat fondly remembers the boomer smackdown. Now Lauren identifies as a gentle ish parent, which looks like this.

[Olivia Owen]

My daughter right now, my 5 year old is very fussy about her socks putting them on and specifically how they feel. She's very tactile and mom knows she's just very weird about how her clothes feel. And so it's like you want to acknowledge that this is a very big deal to her, but you also need to teach her that this does not matter and you cannot let this be a big deal. So how do you, how do you kind of coach her through it but also like acknowledge like you need to get out of your head here. You need to get out of your own way, child. And so like not overreacting and how.

[Noel King]

Does that present, like, how does that make your morning harder?

[Olivia Owen]

Oh, my word. She's on the floor crying, going, my socks don't fit right. And then you know, her younger sister is running around pulling out her hair bow, not putting on her socks, taking off her diaper, flinging it around while you're trying to get out the door on time. Because if you are late to her school, they will literally Lock the door and make you go in and fill out a form and shame you into writing why you're late and why are you late? Oh, because my daughter's socks didn't fit right. You know, it's like you can't put that on a Google form. That turns into five minutes late, which turns into 10 minutes late, which means I'm not getting to work on time, which means my day is disrupted, all because my 5 year old is frustrated over this one little thing. And so you're taking deep breaths because internally you're going down the rabbit hole of all of this is ruining my.

[Noel King]

Okay, so the reason that we're talking to you, Lauren, is that I presume you identify as a gentle parent.

[Olivia Owen]

I would say all millennials can relate to being gentle ish parents because we were raised, most of us were raised by boomers. I can see my mother's face right now. And boomers maybe are more of an authoritarian kind of style of parenting. And I think millennials can more as a. We'll call it, we're relating to our kids feelings more. And I think gentle parenting is a very hot button topic because if you go out in the world and you say, I'm a gentle parent, you will be judged like, parents will come for you and look at you like what? So I think it's more about acknowledging your kid in the moment. I think that we parent our kid for exactly who they are. I think that's maybe what gentle parenting is trying to accomplish is parent the child you have as opposed to parenting in broad strokes, the same way for all your kids. But I don't know. I'm not a parenting expert.

[Noel King]

So how do you handle, let's say, a little tantrum on the floor about the socks in a way specifically that you think is differently than the way your mom might have done?

[Olivia Owen]

It depends on which parenting blog you've read, which Internet mom you're following that day, which answer you want to get. That's the problem with being a parent in the modern world. It's overwhelming the consumption of advice you get, like, who knows what we're doing? We're all just grasping at straws. But the basic concept is. I can see that you're really upset about this right now. I'm sorry about that. That must be really hard for you. Can I help you? It looks like maybe you need a little bit of help. Let's get this situation solved so we can move on. Okay. If I am under caffeinated and tired, it is. Girl, put your socks on, we're moving forward. So it's just like, we try to look at our kids and treat them like. Almost like adults, but they aren't adults. So we're just trying to acknowledge their feelings a little bit more. Not every day, not all day, but that's the goal in kind of the way that we parent them.

[Noel King]

Okay, Christy, I hear you. Chuckling.

[Christy Doak]

Oh, my gosh.

[Noel King]

Christy Doak has been listening in to all of this. Christy is Lauren's mom, perpetrator of the boomer smackdown. And gentle parenting has brought Christy to the brink.

[Christy Doak]

If I've heard Lauren and her husband say, I see you're frustrated one time, I've heard it 10 million times. They're always talking it through and giving her time to space to talk through it. It is very gentle, and it takes. Who has that kind of time? No wonder you're late. You just say to her, sutton, if you have these pair of socks, pick the most comfortable socks. You have 30 seconds. If you don't, I'm picking for you, and we're out the door. That's my version of gentle parenting, rather than slamming the socks. I do respect that she has these challenges. Who has time to talk it all through? And. And they do. They talk everything out.

[Noel King]

Back in the 80s and 90s, if Lauren had thrown a fit about something that you thought was, you know, a bit. A bit minor or a bit absurd, how would you have handled it? What did you. How did you talk to Lauren?

[Christy Doak]

What did you do with a lot less talking? I'm just gonna say a lot less talking. Probably a lot less acknowledgement of her feelings, I think, and a lot more. This, too, shall pass. I think. Now there is so much acknowledgment of her feeling, and it has given her, I think, a sense of entitlement that I didn't allow my kids to have. She's very into herself, and it plays out in ways that I wouldn't have put up with. And I don't know if that's good or bad. I can't think of a time that child has ever been yelled at. Now, in my day, I was a gentle parent. I'm not kidding you. They don't. I can't think that they've raised their voice with her. I don't. Lauren, I'm not exaggerating. I've probably yelled at her more than you've ever yelled at her. You think?

[Olivia Owen]

We absolutely raise our voice with our child. So let's be very clear. We absolutely. We do. We totally holler at her. We raise our voice, but like the yelling and the. Like the. No, we don't really yell at our kids. We don't.

[Christy Doak]

They're kind of the style of parenting that they have now doesn't have consequences. I took toys away more often. I sent them into their rooms more often. Lauren's children and my other daughter's children as well, they don't have. There's no consequential parent, no consequences for the behaviors. It's generally a conversation and it's generally a. Let's talk about. Why did you hit your sister? Well, I'm like, you hit your sister. Sit in that chair. I don't see that happening.

[Noel King]

Do you think, Christy, that it was easier to be a parent when you were raising your kids in the 80s and 90s?

[Christy Doak]

I think it was easier to be free of judgment because there weren't so many eyes on me. And so I think that Lauren feels more judged than I ever felt because she's out there and she works in a field where she sees a lot of other mothers. I was younger than she was, and I just didn't see it as much. Judgment's always been there. It's just now very up in your face because people look at it on the Internet.

[Noel King]

One thing I'm trying to. Trying to understand, Lauren, is whether gentle as parenting feels like something that you must do or something that you want to do. Because when you were four or five and you were told, look, just get it done, you didn't really like that. And so you're trying to do it differently. Is that. Is this entirely a choice?

[Olivia Owen]

I don't think that we look back on it and go, oh, we were yelled at and we had such a horrible childhood, and our parents stomped around and screamed and this and that, in a sense where we want to make a great change. And I give my parents incredible credit because I was my daughter, I was my five year old. I still am anxious and nervous and type A, which explains why I love all the blogs and the Internet and. And my parents really did help me. And they weren't screamers and they weren't yellers, and they had boundaries and they had rules and they had consequences. And I think at the end of the day, that's how all parents should parent. Kids shouldn't have. Kids shouldn't just be like, out in the world, roaming. They do thrive on stability, structure, boundaries, consequences. I think what's happened is, like most things, maybe this generation has swung the pendulum just a little too far. These conversations are important because I'm listening to my mom talk about it and she will say this stuff to our faces like it's just funny because she'll tease us and we know it, but we still do it.

[Christy Doak]

Well, I don't think you're doing anything wrong with your kids. I do think occasionally if there's something that I think is a red flag. And I try not to give advice because I do think that you're a great mom. I think you and Greg are doing it the best you can other than all of the talking. And I would say their daughter with me when she has a sock issue. If I say, you have three pair of socks, let's put them on, believe me, she picks the socks, she puts them on. We're out the door in five minutes.

[Noel King]

Christy Doak and her daughter, Lauren Nicholson. Thank you to all of you who called in with your stories. I'm not gonna tell on you. Victoria Chamberlain produced today's show and we think she turned out out great. Miranda Kennedy edited Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd engineered and Laura Bullard checked the facts. The rest of our team includes Avishai Artsy, Hadi Muagdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Miles Bryan, Peter Balanon Rosen, Travis Larchuk, Rob Byers and Sean Ramasper. Our supervising editor is Amina El Saadi. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy and we use music by Breakmaster. Cylinder. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc. The show is a part of Vox. You can support our journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to Vox. To sign up. I'm Noel King. This has been Today Explained.

[Lauren Nicholson]

You think you know what working on your wellness sounds like. But there's one thing that truly sounds like the best thing you can do for your overall wellness. Every great performance starts with a great night's sleep. And every great night's sleep starts with Natrol, the number one drug free sleep aid brand in America. 100% drug free and non habit forming. Get yours now at Target or wherever you shop. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.