← Today, Explained
Today, Explained
How Gen Z found religion
00:32:38
For the first time in decades, American Christianity is not in decline. What are young people looking for–and finding–at church?
Loading summary
Transcript101 lines
- [00:00]
Sean Romstrom
What is Dadication?
- [00:01]
Neil Apatel
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Dae Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [00:22]
Sean Romstrom
That's Dadication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the US Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council hey everyone, it's Neil Apatel, editor in chief of the Verge and host of Decoder, my show about big ideas and other problems. We have a special, exclusive episode for.
- [00:36]
Dr. Ryan Burge
You that we're really excited about.
- [00:37]
Sean Romstrom
It's an interview with Google CEO Sundar Pichai. I sat down with Sundar during the Google I O Developer Conference this year to talk about all of the company's.
- [00:44]
Neil Apatel
Major AI news, as well as the.
- [00:46]
Sean Romstrom
State of the industry, the future of.
- [00:47]
Dr. Ryan Burge
The web, and Google's ongoing antitrust trials.
- [00:50]
Sean Romstrom
There's a lot going on in this one. I think you're really going to like it. Check out Decoder wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:00]
Jonqulyn Hill
Before we get started, I wanted to ask you for a small favor. We're planning for the future of Explain It To Me, and we want to hear from you to figure out how we can make our show better. Visit voxmedia.com survey to give us your feedback. Thanks.
- [01:20]
Neil Apatel
I found the legend Does God Love Me?
- [01:26]
Jonqulyn Hill
I'm Jonqulyn Hill. This is Explain It To Me. A couple Sundays ago, I did something I try to do at least once a month. I climbed the stairs and entered the sanctuary of Metropolitan AME in person instead of online. When you walk in, one of the first things you'll notice are these beautiful stained glass windows. But one of my favorite features are the candelabras right behind the altar. One of them was a gift from abolitionist Frederick Douglass. He attended services there, and it's even where they held his funeral. Growing up, church was a regular part of my life. My dad's a pastor in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Church is how I made a lot of my friends growing up. It gave me my first taste of public speaking, and since pastors in that tradition are moved around from church to church, it also determined where I lived. Bouncing around different cities across the country, there's a familiarity and a comfort in going. I like hearing the songs I heard growing up. I like catching up and saying hi to the people I know, it makes me feel more grounded. I'm a millennial. A lot of my friends don't go to church. An outlier in my friend group that way. A lot of my friends don't practice any religion at all, even if they grew up with it. So I was interested to learn recently that a lot of young people are turning to organized religion today in ways that many people in their 30s and older just aren't. And a couple weeks ago we asked our Gen Z listeners to share their experiences coming back to church.
- [03:10]
Mackenzie Haas
Hi, my name is Mackenzie Haas. I'm 25. I live in the heart of the Bible Belt, Wichita, Kansas. And I have always not really been someone who cares for religion. That being said, I grew up Catholic and now I have kind of turned a corner going back towards my faith in God and just regularly praying.
- [03:35]
Dr. Ryan Burge
I'm a Gen Z individual and I found religion. I did not grow up going to church. My family never went to church when I was younger. But I always had questions and felt like something bigger was out there. So as soon as I could drive myself, I went to church and started looking for those answers.
- [03:52]
Jonqulyn Hill
And so many of you called in with stories of returning to faith in your 20s. As a cradle Catholic that has found its her way back into religion. I understand why a lot of young people are actually going back to religion. And honestly it's more so because there's no other place to turn to. More like a higher power in order to just see what's wrong with life or just having to find an answer through a higher power.
- [04:17]
Mackenzie Haas
I guess as someone who left the church but actually recently returned to church, it's been very refreshing to see Democrats and last leaning candidates and politicians be proud of their stance and use Christianity and their faith in God to push forth belief.
- [04:44]
Neil Apatel
They're at that age where they're making.
- [04:47]
Jonqulyn Hill
Meaning of things, making sense of things, trying to figure out does God love me me. After church, during the time where people tend to mill about before heading to brunch or whatever other Sunday plans they have that day, I asked people if they were seeing more young folks coming.
- [05:05]
Sean Romstrom
We are indeed seeing that.
- [05:06]
Mackenzie Haas
And what we are finding are seekers who want a theological depth.
- [05:15]
Sean Romstrom
One of the things that I've learned.
- [05:16]
Mackenzie Haas
JQ is young people don't just want.
- [05:19]
Dr. Ryan Burge
To be preached at, they want to build community.
- [05:25]
Jonqulyn Hill
This week we're looking into why young Americans are getting more religious, especially when it comes to Christianity. Later on we'll visit a traditional Catholic parish that Gen Z ers are flocking to. But first, we're going to talk to a political science professor about why this is happening in the first place. Stay with us. I'm Claire Parker.
- [06:13]
Ashley Hamilton
And I'm Ashley Hamilton.
- [06:14]
Jonqulyn Hill
And this week we're discussing Hilaria Baldwin. Why does she have so many kids?
- [06:19]
Ashley Hamilton
She will not answer that question for.
- [06:21]
Dr. Ryan Burge
You in a way that you want it answered, but she will respond to.
- [06:24]
Neil Apatel
Every single thing ever written about her.
- [06:25]
Ashley Hamilton
In a tabloid in a deeply cryptic way.
- [06:27]
Jonqulyn Hill
She's taking on the tough questions like, does ADD make you speak with a Spanish accent? Does an older man guarantee happiness in a marriage?
- [06:37]
Ashley Hamilton
We Talked to Eliza McClam and Julia Hava from Bingetopia Podcast. They are Hilaria Baldwin experts, and they dove deep with us on Hilaria's latest memoir, manual Not Included.
- [06:48]
Jonqulyn Hill
You can listen to new episodes of Celebrity Memorable Club every Tuesday on Amazon Music.
- [06:55]
Sean Romstrom
Hello, My name is Sean Romstrom, and I'm one of the hosts of TODAY Explained, and I'm here to ask you for a favor. The TODAY Explained team is planning for the future of the show, and we want our listeners to be a part of that future. So we're asking you to help us out by filling out a brief survey. Your feedback will help us figure out what's working, what's not, and how we can make TODAY Explained even better. Just visit voxmedia.com survey I'm just caught up on what's not working, what's not working. You guys visit voxmedia.comsurvey to give us your feedback. That's voxmedia.comsurvey what's not working?
- [07:49]
Jonqulyn Hill
I always tell people to introduce themselves and do it like you would at a dinner party, but also a dinner party where it's okay to talk about religion and politics.
- [07:58]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Oh, that's not many dinner parties in my life. My name is Dr. Ryan Burge, and I am a guy who looks at religion data all day long.
- [08:06]
Jonqulyn Hill
Okay. To understand where we're seeing young people turning to religion and why, I went to Dr. Ryan Burge, Associate professor of political science at Eastern Illinois University.
- [08:17]
Dr. Ryan Burge
I was a pastor for almost 20 years. Three different American Baptist churches in rural Illinois. And the last church I was a pastor at actually closed down last July because we didn't have enough members to sustain ourselves.
- [08:29]
Jonqulyn Hill
Why was membership declining? Do you have any idea?
- [08:33]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Well, it's hard to be a growing church in a declining town in a declining region. We were also part of the mainline tradition, which is the more like, moderate flavor of Protestant Christianity, which has been in, you know, real decline now for 50 years.
- [08:45]
Jonqulyn Hill
When I hear that, it sounds so reminiscent of stories of churches I've heard. And it sounds like it fits into this wider picture of Christianity in America. This year, Pew Research center released the findings from their most recent religious landscape study. Tell us what the religious landscape study is and what it found this time around.
- [09:06]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Yeah, so Pew spends a lot of time and resources on getting religion questions right. And it kind of creates, like, the benchmark, the barometer, which all other surveys that talk about religion try to use that as sort of like the. The measuring stick of did we get it right or did we get it wrong? The Pew numbers on, like, the share of Americans who are Christians or non religious is sort of considered to be like, the most authoritative source on these things. So as far back as we have survey data, Christianity has been in decline in America. So since the early 1970s General Social Survey started in 1972, about 90% of Americans were Christians in that first wave. And then over time, it just continued to decline. Decline. It's almost like every year you expect it to just be one point lower than the prior year, two points lower than the prior year. American Evangelical Church in free fall.
- [09:51]
Sean Romstrom
Recent findings from the Cultural Research center at Arizona Christian University found a growing decline in Christian beliefs and church attendance.
- [10:00]
Jonqulyn Hill
With each passing year.
- [10:01]
Sean Romstrom
As fewer of us attend religious services regularly, we're losing our places of worship.
- [10:06]
Dr. Ryan Burge
But what's interesting is at the same time that you have Americans who are non religious has also risen. We saw just an unbelievable rise. We call them the nones. N o N E s Non religious people. They went from 5% of America to almost 30% of America in 2022. So nuns go from 5% to 30%. Christians go from 90% to low 60s. 62, 63. But the biggest story in all that is what's happened the last four years or so, which is the share of Americans who are Christians has stopped changing, and the share of Americans who are non religious has also stopped changing. They sort of hit these plateaus. And for all the movement and change and volatility we saw the last four years, we've seen none of it. It's been relative stability, which is really intriguing from, you know, a demographic perspective, a religious perspective, a societal perspective. Why that's happening.
- [10:54]
Jonqulyn Hill
Is the decline that we saw specific to Christianity or did that happen to other organized religions too?
- [11:01]
Dr. Ryan Burge
So small groups are really hard to measure because they're small. You know, numerically, it's hard to figure out, like, jews are between 1 and 2% of a survey, depending on what Survey you do. So any decline there probably is within the margin of error. Hindus are half a percent of America. Buddhists are 1%. Latter Day Saints are 1%. So it's really hard to sort of track those really small groups with a lot of specificity. But at the end of the day, like, there's a lot of Christians in America. There was a lot of Christians in America, you know, 30 years ago, and there's actually still a lot of Christians. Most Americans today are still Christians. Like, I think we forget that sometimes.
- [11:34]
Jonqulyn Hill
So how did this decline we've seen in Christianity break down along the generational lines?
- [11:40]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Every generation is less Christian than the prior generation, at least as far back as we know. Right. Going all the way back to like the early 1900s. And what's fascinating is the drop is very consistent. If you look at the religious differences between Gen Z and millennials, it's actually incredibly small. So a person who's 40 years old today, their religiosity on average is not that much different than the religiosity of a 20 year old. And on some metrics I've seen some data and I've published this data that says that young people are actually more likely to be weekly religious attenders than millennials are. So there are some metrics that say that young people's religiosity actually might be higher than people like in their 30s and 40s. So this is a huge. We've never seen that before.
- [12:26]
Jonqulyn Hill
I'm kind of curious why we're seeing more young people turn towards religion in this moment.
- [12:33]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Hard to say. You know, the pendulum swings in a society from one direction to the other direction. Politically, we had that in America, right. With the Great Society in the 60s, we were very liberal country. And then we had, you know, the Reagan revolution and we swung back to the right. Then we had Obama, went back to the left, and we have Trump. We go back to the right. Well, with religion, the pendulum's been swinging towards secularization for 40 years now. Right. You know, to be a young person is to rebel against your parents. And, you know, in my generation, it was like, oh, I grew up very like hardcore Catholic or evangelical. And so I became an atheist. Like, that was the most rebellious thing you can do. But imagine if you are second generation atheist or third generation atheist, you know what the most rebellious thing you can do. You is be a Christian or be an orthodox Christian or be like a Catholic, you know, that goes to mass every Sunday. So I do wonder if young people are sort of reacting right to all the changes we've seen in society. And I do think you are seeing some young people go, I want something that feels ancient and traditional and historical that seems more rooted and more concrete than what we have right now. And I think for some young people, that's very appealing to them.
- [13:35]
Jonqulyn Hill
Are we seeing this shift happen equally among women, young women and young men, or is it, is there a gender breakdown?
- [13:42]
Dr. Ryan Burge
So this might be the most interesting story in American religion right now. We've always known in social science that women tend to be more religious than men by a couple points. More likely to go to church, more likely to identify as Christian or Catholic, you know, some, some religious tradition. And what's really fascinating is among Gen Z, the gender gap has, has gone to zero on religion, that men and women are probably as religious as each other in generation Z. And on some metrics like religious attendance, young men are actually more likely to go to church than young women are.
- [14:13]
Sean Romstrom
Recent data shows young Gen Z men.
- [14:16]
Jonqulyn Hill
Are finding their faith and leading a resurgence back to church. I mean, when this first started to.
- [14:21]
Ashley Hamilton
Kind of emerge in surveys, it shocked experts.
- [14:25]
Jonqulyn Hill
So to see young men driving this.
- [14:28]
Mackenzie Haas
Is really, really surprising.
- [14:30]
Dr. Ryan Burge
And we're seeing sort of anecdotal stories about like, orthodox Christianity seeing a huge rise in young men. The Catholic church has seen a huge rise in young men, kind of traditional Catholicism. So all those things, we don't really understand why that's happening. Exactly. But there is some, there's something cooking in the data where it looks like the gender gap has, has closed completely. I wonder if politics might be driving this religious divide among young people. Because in the general discourse, I think a lot of men feel like they're being overlooked. And if you go to a Catholic church, it's like, okay, this is one of the few places in society where men are seen and actually, you know, like, have a privileged position in that, in that hierarchy.
- [15:13]
Jonqulyn Hill
I'm curious which religious denominations we're seeing young people turn towards to more right now.
- [15:20]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Yeah. So traditional Catholicism, which for, you know, the audience listening to this, Let me, let me make this clear. Traditional Catholicism is not Catholicism that you think of. Traditional Catholicism thinks that we should go back to a Latin mass, that women should cover their heads, that, you know, the priest should face the table when he blesses the elements. That's the kind of religious that, that's drawing in young men especially. You know, like, it's not like we don't want dumbed down religion. We want actually really elevated religion. And we're also being drawn to evangelicalism. But not just like those non denominational churches you see all over America. Like the really hardcore, like Calvinist churches we would call that have like really strict doctrines. Like they're looking for a lot of rigidity and structure and rules. Young Christians are actually more committed to their faith than young Christians were 15 or 20 years ago. Because I think what's happening is as that the share of young people who are Christians gets smaller. The people who are left are the real true believers. They're not just Christians because their parents were Christians or they grew up in a Christian household. Like they really do believe this stuff. So I think, you know, the number, the aggregate number of Christians in America has been declining for a long time, but the, the fervency and the commitment of those Christians is actually higher today than it was 30 years ago. So it's just interesting, like when people say, is religion declining? I want to say like, yeah, but, but what do you mean by that? Like, can you be more specific? It's not like religion's declining across. There's actually some metrics that make religion look like it's kind of having a resurgence in America.
- [16:46]
Jonqulyn Hill
Okay. That's the religious picture for young people in America. Now when we're back, we visit a traditional Catholic parish in San Francisco. That's after this break.
- [17:04]
Dr. Ryan Burge
Foreign.
- [17:09]
Sean Romstrom
Hey guys, it's Andy Roddick, former world number one tennis player, now a podcaster. It's clay season in pro tennis and that means the French Open on our show served with me, Andy Roddick. We have wall to wall coverage for the entire two weeks. We kick things off with a draw special presented by Amazon prime, breaking down both the men's and women's brackets, making picks and yeah, probably getting most of them wrong. Plus, on June 3rd, my idol Andre Agassi is joining served. Be sure to tune in after that. We wrap all things French Open with a full recap show also presented by Amazon Prime. That's June 10th, so be sure to find the show served with me, andy Roddick, on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:52]
Neil Apatel
This week on Prof. G Markets, we speak with Aswath Demoderan, professor of Finance at NYU's Stern School of Business. He shares his take on on the recent tariff turmoil and what he's watching as we head into second quarter earnings. This is going to be a contest between market resilience and economic resilience as to whether in fact the markets are overestimating the resilience of the economy. And that's what the actual numbers are going to deliver is maybe the economy and markets are a lot more resilient than we gave them credit for, in which case we'll come out of this year just like we came out of 2020 and 2022, with much less damage than we thought would be created. You can find that conversation exclusively on the Prof. G Markets feed.
- [18:45]
Jonqulyn Hill
It's Explain it to me. We're back. And before the break, we were hearing about how young people, especially young men, are turning not just towards religion, but towards a more rigorous expression of Christianity, like conservative Catholicism. Our producer, Gabrielle Burbet, went to visit a church that's more traditional. Gabby, where'd you go?
- [19:06]
Ashley Hamilton
I went to San Francisco and visited a Catholic church called St. Dominic's it's this big Gothic church in the heart of the city. And on the spectrum of traditional Catholic churches In San Francisco, St. Dominic's is on the more traditional side. They sometimes hold Latin Mass. If you go to Mass, you'll see some women veiling, like literally covering their heads with embroidered veils. But the reason I wanted to go to St. Dominic's in particular is because I had heard that they were attracting a ton of young Catholics from all over the Bay Area. And I think some listeners might be surprised to learn that a liberal city like San Francisco was seeing this resurgence of young people turning to Catholicism. But I think it's a testament to how widespread this trend actually is. So I went by the church on a Wednesday evening, which is the night they hold the young adult group night.
- [20:03]
Neil Apatel
This is the parish office. Have you ever.
- [20:05]
Ashley Hamilton
Father Patrick Rooney runs the different youth groups at the church, and he sometimes holds the Dominican version of Latin Mass for young adults.
- [20:14]
Neil Apatel
I actually run a youth program and a young adult program and a 30s 40s group program. So there's actually many peer ministry groups here that I run.
- [20:21]
Ashley Hamilton
The young adult program, which I was there for, is for people in their 20s and early 30s. And I learned that when they started the young adult group a few years ago, there were only about 12 members. Now there are about 60 to 70 young people, a lot of them people of color who meet in the parish hall every Wednesday night.
- [20:43]
Neil Apatel
A lot of young adults who join the Catholic Church end up really desiring the richness of the Catholic tradition, and that includes the Latin Mass. So it's just like the sense of timelessness, the sense of the sacred, the sense of transcendence. Right. And I think that actually explains a large part why there's so much interest in the Latin Mass among young people, because they didn't grow up with that Much of a sense of the sacred. And so they're searching for the sacred.
- [21:05]
Ashley Hamilton
And so where are we going now?
- [21:08]
Neil Apatel
We're going to the parish hall. So parish hall is right there.
- [21:18]
Ashley Hamilton
Father Patrick let me hang around the parish hall. Before they started their group meeting, people were mingling about these big round tables loaded with snacks. And I went up and asked some of them about the trends we've been seeing with young people turning towards traditional Catholicism.
- [21:34]
Sean Romstrom
My name is Michael and I am 26 years old. It's really weird. I feel like there's been a big revival on the Latin Mass recently, especially within the college ages.
- [21:45]
Ashley Hamilton
Why do you think that is?
- [21:46]
Sean Romstrom
It kind of points to a tradition, a long tradition of the church which people and nowadays really appreciate, especially when a lot of things in this world are trying to break down traditions nowadays, especially a lot of the good ones.
- [22:00]
Ashley Hamilton
What traditions do you feel are being broken down right now?
- [22:05]
Sean Romstrom
A lot of traditions of basic morality, you know, I mean, a lot of promiscuous lifestyles are permitted. You know, of course, with more technology in the digital age, computers, with that comes a lot of temptation. And I think people confuse freedom nowadays with breaking down traditions and that they think that a lot of traditions are just there to control us. And I think that's where people get it wrong.
- [22:30]
Mackenzie Haas
When I go to other Catholic events around the country, I notice a noticeable difference in the reverence of, I think even the gen zers.
- [22:40]
Ashley Hamilton
Daniella is one of the older ones in the group. At the ripe old age of 30, she's the president of the young adult group, and she talked about how her Gen Z peers have been kind of a religious guide for her on her spiritual journey.
- [22:54]
Mackenzie Haas
I mean, that is a generation where you're seeing the veils come back. That is a generation that in many ways are seeking out the Latin Mass. That is a generation that is seeking that when they find someone that they love, they want to get married. I just started veiling this past year, and I think it's because it's. I've seen so many gen zers and the younger generations start to bring back those veils.
- [23:20]
Ashley Hamilton
Did you grow up Catholic or did you convert?
- [23:24]
Sean Romstrom
I have like a reconversion when I was 18 years old. I was feeling kind of lonely, miserable, and I was looking at myself and I didn't like what I was seeing. And one night, I remember I just asked God, if you're there, please, I just need to know. And suddenly I just felt a presence that was looking at me and looking at all the things that I didn't like. And he was loving all of them and it was like feeling that. I don't know. The only comparison that I can think about is like putting a glass of water under a waterfall. It was overflowing. It was completely overflowing.
- [24:17]
Ashley Hamilton
My name is Lily and I'm 27. I think that people are looking for something real. I think people my age have grown up right alongside the Internet. We grew up, we barely had a chance where like the Internet or computers were not part of our lives. And there's so much false information out there, there's so many fake things or behind a screen, you don't even know what people really look like. And we live in such a world that is constantly broken. I mean by the time I'm 27 and like 17 world, major events have happened in my lifetime where if you're growing up in a society in a world like that, you have to find something that's like concrete and real and honest. So I think that's why people are gravitating more towards religion and also like taking other people with them.
- [25:16]
Mackenzie Haas
In many ways our world has taken such a liberal shift and of course there's people that, how do I say it, like lean into a lot of those liberal ideologies. But I think in some ways it's gone so left that people are searching for truth. You know, in the conversations that I have with my peers, with my young adult friends, I think people are very concerned with how they want to raise a family one day because they see out on the media, they see in the world really just like the crisis of a family. And they hear about what's being taught in the education system for these young minds and they're very worried about, I think particular types of like gender ideology that is being taught and promoted. There are people that are going to say that the Catholic Church is narrow minded, they need to get with the times, their teachings need to match up with science, they need to be more empathetic and open. But when it gets down to it, I think there's so much just about the natural world that the Catholic Church has its grounding in.
- [26:34]
Ashley Hamilton
One trend that we are seeing is that we're seeing a lot of specifically Gen Z men who are drawn to Christianity. Is that something that you're seeing here?
- [26:46]
Mackenzie Haas
There are definitely more men than women in the group and maybe this is just a good testament of what we're seeing statistically across the country, that there are more men that are coming into the faith. I think that the Catholic Church is probably one of the only places right now that is really encouraging men to be men in the sense of being strong for their wives, being strong for their families.
- [27:16]
Sean Romstrom
I think the church is really trying to call us men to serve not just as leaders, but as those who serve. You know, like a servant leader. Like what Christ was like being. I guess Christ, of course he's a man. I guess he's the model for, you know, the modern clergy, you know, priests, people in a religious life, and even laymen, you know, like regular men and out in society, regular society. They should act as Christ did.
- [27:42]
Ashley Hamilton
When you're thinking as a priest of how to bring in more women, how do you think about that?
- [27:47]
Neil Apatel
Well, I would say that this particular trend that you're talking about is unique in the history of humanity in a certain respect, certainly in the history of Christianity. So that is a project I'm working on.
- [27:59]
Ashley Hamilton
Why do you think that young people are turning towards Catholicism right now?
- [28:06]
Neil Apatel
It may be, for example, that when there is a religious revival, which happens multiple times throughout human history, that God's grace is at work in the world in a way different than it was before, in ways that are mysterious to us and only God knows why. But if we want to look at natural reasons as well, I think there is something I would say about Catholicism. Swimming upstream. If you're a Catholic young person today, you are choosing to be Catholic when it's hard to be Catholic and you're swimming upstream, then when you do get together with young adults, there's a kind of vibrancy and a kind of authenticity that's there that you wouldn't have before, because everyone who is there is actually choosing to be Catholic is actually swimming upstream. And it does. It does a lot for you in terms of just the excitement in the room.
- [28:56]
Ashley Hamilton
Are there cultural reasons or events in the world that have happened that you've heard young people reference when talking about why they've chosen Catholicism, I will say.
- [29:09]
Neil Apatel
That there does seem to be a thirst for authenticity. And I think a lot of times when people come back to the church, it's because they started out living their life for pleasure, and then they kind of found the hollowness of that life and how empty it was. And then they start searching for meaning. And that search for meaning eventually takes them to faith. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
- [29:31]
Jonqulyn Hill
Amen.
- [29:32]
Neil Apatel
Good and gracious God, we thank you for the gift of the Incarnation.
- [30:10]
Jonqulyn Hill
This episode was produced by Gabrielle Burbet. It was edited by our executive producer, Miranda Kennedy Fact Checking by Melissa Hirsch with engineering by Matthew Billy. Special thanks to Christian Paz. If you want to read more about Gen Z and Christianity, we've linked to one of his vox pieces in our show notes on an upcoming episode of Explain it to Me. We're going to summer camp and we want to hear from you. Do you have a favorite memory from camp or a horror story? Or do you think summer camp is overrated and overpriced? Thank you so much for listening. Talk to you soon. Bye.
- [30:54]
Sean Romstrom
Reason.