How the Abrego Garcia standoff ends

Summary

Today, Explained: How the Abrego Garcia Standoff Ends

Episode Release Date: April 23, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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Introduction to the Abrego Garcia Case

In this episode of Today, Explained, hosts Sean Ramis and Noel King delve into the ongoing legal battle surrounding Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an individual deported by the Trump administration to El Salvador under controversial circumstances. The case has escalated into a significant legal standoff involving multiple court decisions and has garnered attention from political figures and legal experts alike.

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Interview with Senator Chris Van Hollen

Background and Motivation for the Visit

At [00:00], Sean Ramis introduces the case: Kilmar Abrego Garcia was deported by ICE in Prince George's County, Maryland, on March 12, 2025, only to end up in the notorious SICOT prison in El Salvador. Following an admission by the Trump administration on March 31 that the deportation was an administrative error, a series of court orders have yet to resolve Garcia's fate.

Senator Chris Van Hollen explains his reasons for personally visiting Garcia in El Salvador:

“[02:09] I wanted to let him know that his case was meaningful to every American who cares about the Constitution,” Van Hollen states, emphasizing the broader implications of Garcia’s situation on constitutional rights.

Challenges Faced During the Visit

Van Hollen recounts the difficulties in securing a meeting with Garcia:

“[03:09] I decided not to give up. I drove towards SICOT prison... soldiers stopped me. They said, ‘You can’t go to see Abrego Garcia.’”
His persistence eventually led to a private meeting at his hotel, bypassing the staged public setup intended to portray Garcia in a more favorable light.

Conditions in SICOT Prison

During his meeting, Van Hollen learned about Garcia’s dire conditions:

“[05:56] He was scared and traumatized by other prisoners... there’s no ability to communicate with anybody in the outside world.”
Garcia described his experience as being “illegally abducted” and expressed his desire to reunite with his family, highlighting the severe human rights violations involved.

Propaganda and Deception Efforts

Van Hollen criticized the El Salvadoran government's attempts to manipulate public perception:

“[07:42] They wanted to stage the meeting by the pool to create the impression he was in paradise... They totally screwed up the staging.”
He referred to this effort as “Margarita gate,” underscoring the lengths to which officials went to deceive the public about Garcia’s true situation.

Response to Republican Allegations

Addressing Republican claims that Garcia is affiliated with the MS-13 gang and has a history of domestic abuse, Van Hollen emphasizes the lack of evidence:

“[09:36] The federal judge said that the Trump administration had presented, ‘no evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or any terrorist activity.’”
He urges Republicans to focus on presenting substantial evidence in court rather than relying on social media rhetoric.

Constitutional Crisis Argument

Van Hollen argues that the situation constitutes a constitutional crisis:

“[10:23] The Supreme Court ruled nine to nothing that the Trump administration must facilitate Garcia’s return...”
He cites a Fourth Circuit judge’s remarks on the violation of due process and the foundational principles of the U.S. constitutional order, stressing that this case is emblematic of broader threats to constitutional rights.

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Discussion with Ellie Hoenig

Current Legal Status and Court Rulings

Ellie Hoenig, a former prosecutor and legal analyst, provides an in-depth analysis of the legal landscape surrounding Garcia’s case:

“[17:05] The district court acknowledged the deportation was an error and ordered the executive branch to facilitate his return. The Supreme Court agreed to facilitate but not to effectuate the return.”
She explains the nuanced legal interpretations of "facilitate" versus "effectuate," highlighting the administration’s limited compliance.

Potential Scenarios for Resolution

Hoenig outlines three possible outcomes:

1. Passive Aggressive Resistance:
   • The administration interprets “facilitate” minimally, leading to prolonged legal battles without resolution.
   • “[18:59] This could end up in purgatory with Garcia remaining in El Salvador.”

2. Stricter Judicial Enforcement:
   • Courts may demand more specific actions from the administration, compelling greater effort to return Garcia.
   • “[19:00] If the courts require specific actions like cutting funding for SICOT, the administration may either comply or defy, escalating tensions.”

3. Administration Compliance with Subsequent Deportation:
   • Garcia is returned but immediately deported to a third country, continuing the cycle of legal and human rights issues.
   • “[20:58] This would likely result in an immediate re-deportation, maintaining the status quo.”

Implications of the Standoff

Hoenig discusses the potential precedents set by this standoff:

“[23:40] A constitutional crisis occurs when there’s no clear pathway forward, which could be the case if the courts and executive branch remain deadlocked.”

She warns against the overuse of the term "constitutional crisis" and emphasizes the importance of maintaining judicial integrity:

“[24:12] The executive branch can challenge norms and conventions, testing the resilience of the judiciary.”

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by highlighting the critical nature of the Abrego Garcia case in the broader context of U.S. constitutional rights and executive power. Both Senator Van Hollen and Ellie Hoenig emphasize that the resolution of this standoff will not only determine Garcia’s fate but also set significant legal and political precedents for future cases involving due process and executive authority.

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Notable Quotes:

• Senator Chris Van Hollen:
  “[02:09]... his case was something that was meaningful to every American who cares about the Constitution.”

• Senator Chris Van Hollen:
  “[07:42] They totally screwed up the staging. ... they want to deceive the American people about what's happening.”

• Ellie Hoenig:
  “[19:00] If the courts require specific actions like cutting funding for SICOT, the administration may either comply or defy, escalating tensions.”

• Ellie Hoenig:
  “[24:12] The executive branch can challenge norms and conventions, testing the resilience of the judiciary.”

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This comprehensive analysis by Today, Explained sheds light on the intricate legal and political challenges surrounding the Abrego Garcia case, underscoring its significance in the ongoing discourse on constitutional rights and executive power in the United States.

Transcript

[Sean Ramis]

On March 12, Kilmar Abrego Garcia was picked up by ICE in Prince George's County, Maryland. In the days that followed, he was deported to the country where he was born, El Salvador. Except this time he wound up in its infamous SICOT prison at Cecot.

[Chris Van Hollen]

They don't let any of the prisoners have access to the outside world.

[Sean Ramis]

On March 31, the Trump administration said it had mistakenly deported Abrego Garcia, calling it an administrative error. On April 4, a U.S. district judge told the Trump administration to have Abrego Garcia back in the United States by April 7. On April 10, the Supreme Court entered the chat and more or less agreed, saying the Trump administration needed to get Abrego Garcia back. But it's April 23rd and he's still not back on Today Explained. We're going to speak with the Maryland senator who sat down with Abrego Garcia in El Salvador last week and figure out how this legal standoff between the Trump administration and the courts might play out. Hey, it's Cam Hayward, defensive tackle for the Pittsburgh Steelers and host of Not Just Football podcast. The NFL draft is coming fast and over the next few episodes we're going to be talking about it, diving deep and also bringing the draft party to Pittsburgh for a special live taping to have some fun.

[Ellie Hoenig]

You're not going to want to miss it.

[Sean Ramis]

So tune in our show, Not Just Football with Me, Cam Hayward, for our special draft coverage brought to you by Verizon Business. You can find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ellie Hoenig]

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[Sean Ramis]

Sean Ramis Forum today explained. We spoke to Senator Chris Van Hollen on Tuesday afternoon. We started with why he wanted to go down to El Salvador to meet with Kilmar Abrego Garcia.

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, because I wanted to let him know, number one, that I was bringing greetings from his family who haven't heard from him since he was disappeared. Right. He was locked away. No one was able to reach him. Not his wife, not his mom, not his lawyers. In fact, until this moment I'm the only one who's communicated with him before or since. So I wanted to, number one, see if he was alive. But I also wanted to let him know that his case was something that was meaningful to every American who cares about the Constitution. And, and I wanted to ask the government of El Salvador to stop being complicit, complicit with the Trump administration in this illegal scheme. So it was to really defend the rights of this person, because if we don't defend the rights of this individual, we do threatened rights for everybody who lives here.

[Sean Ramis]

And so how did you end up getting to meet him?

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, I asked, of course, the vice president. He said no. I said, if I come back next week, can I meet with him? No. Well, maybe I could get him on the phone. No. So the next day, I decided not to give up. I drove towards secot prison. About 3km out. I was waved to the side of the road by soldiers stopped me. You could see traffic continuing, know past me. And so I said, why are you, why are you stopping me? They said, you can't go to see, you know, Abrego Garcia. And I said, do you know how he's doing? They said, no. And I said, why can't I go? They said, we have orders. So then we had some number of press events in El Salvador with local press, and they, they did relent. And I, I think that even Bukele recognized that it was a bad look for El Salvador to not allow anybody to meet or talk with this guy, to even know whether he was alive. And so as I was sort of getting ready to go to the airport on the way home, we got a call and I ended up meeting with him.

[Sean Ramis]

What did he tell you?

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, first and foremost, he told me he missed his family. And I told him how much his family missed him. And he said that thinking of them is what gave him strength every day. He said he had had a traumatic experience, of course, but that was his word, traumatic, both in being illegally abducted. He said he tried to make a phone call from the Baltimore, I think it was the Baltimore Detention Center. They wouldn't let him do it. And then, of course, he landed in this really awful Sea Cot prison. So he was traumatized. He said he hurt, he felt he was in pain, said he hadn't committed any crimes. And he asked me to pass his message of love back to his family. And I informed him, because he'd been in a total news blackout, that his case was now representative of, of the fight for constitutional rights in due process. For everybody who lives in America. And that a lot of people were working to get him out of prison in accordance with the Supreme Court 90 order to facilitate his return.

[Sean Ramis]

Did he say he was in danger? Did he say he was traumatized but felt relatively safe? What was the prison condition looking like?

[Chris Van Hollen]

So the first place he went was seacot and he said he was not in fear for safety from the prisoners in his cell. He said, if I recall right there, about 25 prisoners in his cell. He said he was scared and traumatized by other prisoners in other cells. And these cells are packed, I mean, they sometimes have more than 100 prisoners. And he said that they would sort of call out to him and taunt him and in various ways. And that did make him feel very much at risk. He told me that he'd been moved to this other prison and detention center in Santa Ana. He told me he'd been there about eight days. This is as of the time I met with him, which were sort of better conditions. But still, and I want to stress this, still no ability to communicate with anybody in the outside world and to learn anything about what's happening in the outside world. And that's why, you know, this is, that's a violation of international law to deny somebody the ability to talk to their lawyer or family. So that's where he is sitting as we speak. He was clearly traumatized. You know, when I, we talked about his family, he, he welled up, he teared. You could see a tear roll down his eye. So he's. I mean, obviously it's a terrible, terrible situation. And to be picked off the street and have the Trump administration admit it was wrongful in court.

[Sean Ramis]

When you guys met up, there was some photos released and it looks like you had like margarita glasses or something in front of you. Where did that come from? Where exactly was this meeting so interesting you raised that?

[Chris Van Hollen]

I call this Margarita gate. They brought him to my hotel. At first they wanted to stage the meeting by the pool to create this impression, to deceive people thinking that he was in some tropical paradise when he'd been in one of the worst prisons in El Salvador. Notorious place. And if you look at the first photos taken, you'll see that, well, number one, I didn't let them set us by the pool. But you'll see that they. You'll see the original setting of the table just had water glasses and cup of coffee. During our conversation, the government folks from Bukele instructed the waiters to set two taller looking glasses on our. Our table. Making it look like margaritas. I have no idea what's in them because neither of us touched them, but they had a little cherry on top, and they had either salt or sugar on the rim. And I said they totally screwed up the staging. Because if you want to play Sherlock Holmes, you can see that there's no gap in the sugar or the salt where someone would have taken a sip, although they put less liquid in his. I think this is very instructive because it shows the lengths that Bukele and Trump will go to to deceive the American people about what's happening. Right here's a guy illegally abducted, ends up in the worst prison, and they want to create this impression that, hey, he's just in paradise, no problem.

[Sean Ramis]

They want to literally put a cherry on top of the situation.

[Chris Van Hollen]

They literally do.

[Sean Ramis]

We asked the senator about the things Republicans want to focus on in this case. Allegations that Abrego Garcia is a member of the Ms. 13 gang, and the fact that his wife once took out a protective order against him, claiming that he punched her and. And ripped off her shirt.

[Chris Van Hollen]

You know, my point on all of this, Sean, is that they should bring those facts before the court. And Trump should not just be spending all his time on social media. Put up or shut up in federal court. And I want to read to you, and I keep it with me because I want to quote the federal judge in this case. Exactly. She said that the Trump administration had presented, quote, no evidence, no evidence linking abrego Garcia to Ms. 13 or to any terrorist activity, period. So put up or shut up in court. Again, I'm not vouching for the man. I'm standing up for his rights because all of our rights are at risk if we don't.

[Sean Ramis]

There's a lot of focus on this one individual. Even though hundreds of undocumented migrants have been shipped off to El Salvador, California's Governor Gavin Newsom called Garcia's case the, quote, distraction of the day. What's your response to that assessment?

[Chris Van Hollen]

My response is there's never a wrong time to stand up for the Constitution of the United States and due process. And I think Americans of all political persuasions really don't like people who put their finger to the wind and try and decide what to do. I will say that when you're talking about fighting for fundamental rights, at the end of the day, I know the American people are with us.

[Sean Ramis]

You're not only saying we have to focus on constitutional rights. You're saying this situation with Abrego Garcia is a constitutional crisis. You say constitutional crisis. Gavin Newsom says distraction. How do we reconcile those two assessments of this very serious situation?

[Chris Van Hollen]

Well, this is a fundamental constitutional issue and it is a crisis because the Supreme Court has ruled nine to nothing that the Trump administration has to help facilitate his return to the United States. You know that you don't get many 9 nothing decisions out of the Supreme Court. I also do just want to briefly quote what the Fourth Circuit said. This is a three judge panel and the chief judge who wrote it is a guy called Judge Wilkinson. He was appointed by Reagan. Here's what he says. It is difficult in some cases to get to the heart of the matter, but in this case it's not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process. That is the foundation of our constitutional order. So this is not a distraction. This goes to the heart of protecting people's rights and what bullies do and what authoritarian leaders do. And what Donald Trump is doing is beginning by picking on the most vulnerable and refusing to bring his case in the courts and when the courts rule, ignoring them. So this is a very important moment to protect everyone's constitutional rights. It's not about one person. It's about all of us.

[Sean Ramis]

Senator Chris Van Hollen, MD. We're going to run the scenarios of how this might end when we return on TODAY explained. Support for TODAY Explained comes from Shopify. Entrepreneurs know that when you're building a business, you have to wear too many hats. I think there was one of these recently where they had me name all the hats and I kind of enjoyed it. But this time I don't think we're doing that. They're just going straight to the business. According to Shopify, they are behind 10% of all E commerce in the United States, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Now that if true, very impressive. You can turn your business idea into Cha Ching is going to happen here with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [e-mail] explained. You can go to shopify.com explained. That's shopify.com explained. And I think there's going to be a Cha Ching that happens here, too. Support for TODAY Explained comes from Built Rewards. Built Rewards says how nice would it be to get a little pat on the head from your landlord every time you paid your rent. Don't touch my head, landlord. Maybe my back. But not my head sir. Built Rewards lets you earn points on your rent so you don't have to rely on your landlord to validate your self worth, which feels like a good plan. Bilt Rewards says there's no cost to join and just by paying rent you can unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride, and more. They say you can also gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. Things like extra points on dining out, complimentary post workout shakes, and unique experiences that only Built members can access. And and when you're ready to travel, they say Built Points can be converted to your favorite miles and hotel points around the world. You can start paying rent through Built and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to join built.com explained that's J O I N B I L T.com explained join built.com explain to sign up for Built Today.

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[Ellie Hoenig]

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[Sean Ramis]

All right, so we've just heard from Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, who went down to El Salvador to visit Kilmar Abrego Garcia as of Wednesday morning. Where does his legal situation stand? What is the status quo?

[Ellie Hoenig]

Well, still in limbo. So this case has already made its way up and down the chain of the courts. It's gone from the district court all the way up to the Supreme Court. And now it's back down in the federal district Court, which is what we call the trial courts. So the key word here, the key point of dispute is the F word, facilitation. Now, what happened was the district court judge originally said to the US Government, look, it's acknowledged by the administration that Abrego Garcia was sent to El Salvador in error. The Trump administration acknowledged that was a clerical error. He had an order in place that said he cannot be deported to El Salvador. Where do they deport him? The one place he can't be deported, El Salvador. Now the district court judge said to the executive branch, you have to facilitate and effectuate his return. That goes up to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court says, yes on facilitate, no on effectuate. Now you're probably wondering, why are they drawing these lines? What do these words mean? Yeah, the reason is the Supreme Court has drawn a line where they've said it's not our role as the judiciary to order the executive branch what to do when it comes to foreign affairs and foreign policy. Therefore, we're going to beseech you to facilitate, meaning help out, but we're not going to quite order you to effectuate, meaning make it happen, get him back here. And now we're back down in the district court where there's just this never ending fight about what is facilitate. Me, the courts have made very clear they mean help out in a meaningful way. You have to take some affirmative act. But the administration is interpreting that term facilitate to mean, eh, just like don't get in the way, make sure there's no obstacle. So you know, Sean, facilitation I guess, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sean Ramis]

That being said, you've written for New York Magazine about three scenarios that could be how this plays out.

[Ellie Hoenig]

Yeah.

[Sean Ramis]

Could you tell us about the three?

[Ellie Hoenig]

Let me take one of them off. Right off the table. And I'm interested what Senator Van Hollen has told you. There is not a realistic scenario where Kilmar Abrego Garcia comes back to the United States, returns to his family in Maryland and resumes his former life. I just don't think that's possible politically, A, because the administration's so dug in, and B, probably legally because the fact is he's not at this moment a green card holder, legal permanent resident. He does not have a visa, he's not a citizen. So it's pretty easy to deport someone who doesn't have legal status. Here. Taking that off the table, the first situation is where we are right now, what I call passive aggressive resistance, where there continues to be this fight over what the definition of facilitate is. And it goes back up and down the chain. And ultimately the administration goes, look like you may not like it, but you said facilitate. What we're doing counts as facilitation. And we weren't able to get him back. Sorry, the courts have made clear they don't like that. But if they accept that, then we're going to end up in this sort of purgatory and Kilmar Abrego Garcia is going to remain in El Salvador. Scenario two is if the courts get a little tougher and a little more serious and a little more specific. What if one of the courts, district court on up, it could go back up to the Supreme Court, said, okay, listen, you're playing games here with facilitate. We need to be more specific. You are to request his return. You are to cut off the funding for the prison that we're renting. You are to bring him back. Then either the administration complies, which will bring us to scenario three, or the administration defies. And if the administration defies a direct order, you know, look, I'm the last person to use constitutional crisis. I think it's a vastly overused term, but I think we're there at that point, because my definition of constitutional crisis is when we don't have a playbook for what comes next.

[Sean Ramis]

Okay?

[Ellie Hoenig]

And that brings us to our third scenario. If he comes back here, if administration decides we're going to avoid that kind of showdown, we're going to bring him back, they're going to immediately look to begin and perhaps quickly conclude the process of deporting him anywhere other than El Salvador. They can either go to an immigration judge and say, look, you need to lift this order that prevents us from sending him to El Salvador because the circumstances have changed, or if they can find some third country where to send him that will accept them, they can send him there. Look, you don't have to deport a person to the country where they're a resident or a citizen or where they came from. You just have to send them to a country that will take them. The alleged Venezuelan gang members were not sent to Venezuela. They were also sent to El Salvador. So that's the third scenario where basically he comes back, goes back into the system. But I think that's fairly likely to result in an immediate re deportation.

[Sean Ramis]

The three scenarios you gave us all involve development. Something's gonna happen that leads to something else happening. Is there any way in this current situation we're in where nothing happens and he just stays there and the Courts forget about it or does something have to happen?

[Ellie Hoenig]

Well, the courts won't forget about it, but it could well be that the courts don't ultimately reach what they consider a satisfactory resolution. I mean, that's the battle that's happening right now in the district court. Judge Paula Zinnis, she has been using every power available to her as a US District court judge, issuing orders that she is going to get to the bottom of this. She wants what we call discovery. She's going to want sworn statements, maybe live testimony about how did this mistake happen and what are you doing? Government to facilitate. Ultimately, if she's displeased, she can issue a contempt order, which is largely symbolic. There could be fines attached. I mean, theoretically there could be prosecution, imprisonment, but that would have to be done by the executive branch, by doj. So that's not realistic. But look, a contempt finding is meaningful. It's rare to get one out of a district court, especially directed at the Justice Department, at the executive branch. But yeah, I mean, look, we're not necessarily going to get a clean, satisfying resolution. This could end up just sort of with. Well, that's how we interpret, facilitate it didn't get the job done. And if either the administration doesn't change its position to take a more active role to get him back, or the courts don't up the ante here and say we need you to do more, then, yeah, we are gonna end up in this sort of in between world.

[Sean Ramis]

Hmm. You're not quite at constitutional crisis yet. The senator we spoke with earlier in the show is there. What's kind of complex and frustrating about a constitutional crisis is that it's open to inter. Yeah, even so, what kind of precedent does this standoff set?

[Ellie Hoenig]

Yeah, look, I think we have to be careful. Everyone can interpret constitutional crisis differently, but I'm very wary of the boy who cried wolf scenario. I think if everything's a constitutional crisis, nothing isn't. And believe me, in my seven years in media, I've seen people call the decision not to indict Dan Scavino for contempt of Congress, if you remember that one. That's a constitutional crisis. People tend to call anything they don't like a constitutional crisis. The way I define it is, again, when we don't have a map for what comes next.

[Sean Ramis]

And it's only been fewer than 100 days still at this point. But of course, we've seen the executive branch test the judiciary time and again. What have we learned so far, Ellie, from those tests?

[Ellie Hoenig]

One of the things that we've learned is that the executive branch can probably get away with a lot if it doesn't give a damn about norms and conventions and good faith. I think we're seeing that come to bear a bit. And the other thing that strikes me about the way the Trump administration has gone about its immigration agenda. And look, of course it was probably the number one issue Donald Trump ran on. Yes, he was elected, but they're choosing to do it the hardest possible ways. They are setting this bizarre degree of difficulty for themselves in the ways they're choosing to go about this. For example, in the other case involving the Venezuelan gangsters, allegedly they're using the Alien enemies Act, this 1798 law that applies to foreign incursions. Like you don't need to pull out these exotic, bizarre, rare laws if you want to deport people who are here illegally. It's really pretty easy. You can go through the immigration courts, you can make arrests, you can deport people. They get their due process. But for some reason they're choosing these extraordinarily difficult methodologies to do this. Also in the student cases where we see students, Tufts in Columbia, who are being detained and then potentially arrested, they're using this again, sort of rare law that allows the Secretary of State to declare someone a security risk again, if they're not here legally or even if they have non citizen green card status. That's not all that hard to revoke. You don't need to use these bizarre, rarely seen statutes that are designed for extreme wartime emergency type scenarios. And then the last thing, there's an element of incompetence to this all. I mean, sending Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the one country on the map where he's not allowed to be sent is incompetence. And seeing the fact that they've been unable to or maybe unwilling to answer a lot of the basic questions that judges have answered. Who knew what, when, when were the planes sent? When were they turned around? Also speaks to either incompetence or sort of willful blindness by the admin.

[Sean Ramis]

Foreign Ellie Hoenig, former prosecutor, current legal analyst. You can read [e-mail] our show today was produced by Miles Bryan and Amanda Llewellyn. It was edited by Amina Al Saadi. Fact checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Andrea Christensdatter and Patrick Boyd. This is today.

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