How to fix blue cities

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Fix Blue Cities"

Podcast: Today, Explained (Vox)
Air Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Estad Herndon
Featured Guests: Ezra Klein (author & NYT columnist), Katie Wilson (Mayor-elect of Seattle)

---

Overview of the Episode

This episode addresses the challenges that Democratic-led ("blue") cities face in delivering on promises of affordability, housing, and climate solutions. The conversation is rooted in the ideas set out by Ezra Klein’s influential book Abundance, which proposes a shift toward a “goal-oriented” liberalism — one that focuses more on results than process. The episode juxtaposes Klein's high-level arguments with on-the-ground realities, featuring an interview with Katie Wilson, the new mayor-elect of Seattle—a city grappling with affordability and housing crises.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Abundance Agenda Explained

Guest: Ezra Klein

• Definition: The “abundance agenda” addresses why blue states and cities, despite progressive ideals, often fail to deliver sufficient housing, clean energy infrastructure, or technological upgrades.
  • "In places where Democrats governed, you were not seeing enough of the things people need get built or produced." — Ezra Klein [02:43]
• Housing as Central Issue: Democratic states face higher housing costs than Republican-led states due to regulatory complexity and local opposition, despite ambitions for equity.
  • "Housing costs have gone completely out of control... that is honestly distinct from places where Republicans govern." — Ezra Klein [05:02]
• Process vs. Goals: Over decades, noble goals like environmental safeguards and citizen input evolved into red tape that stymies the very progress originally sought.
  • "The special interests begin to wind their way around it. All of a sudden... nothing can move through." — Ezra Klein [09:12]
• No Simple Villain: Multiple actors and intersecting regulations create barriers. Solutions require unraveling entrenched systems rather than blaming a single group.
• Liberalism that Builds: Klein calls for a pragmatic liberalism measuring success by outcomes (e.g., affordable housing built), not simply intentions or processes.
  • "Liberalism should be very committed to its goals and the process should serve those goals. Not so committed to its process that it cannot achieve its promised goals." — Ezra Klein [09:49]
• Broad Political Appeal: Core abundance ideas—building housing, decarbonizing, infrastructure—can transcend partisan divides if not presented in purely left-leaning terms.

Barriers to Abundance

• Institutional Inertia: Longstanding structures (zoning laws, planning commissions, lawsuits, environmental reviews) now act as barriers.
  • Example: California Governor Newsom’s failure to meet housing goals despite legislative and legal efforts [06:58–07:24].
• Migratory Consequences: Blue-state failures in affordability fuel out-migration to more affordable (often red) states.
  • "You were seeing big exodus, migration out of California, out of New York, out of Illinois because it has become so unaffordable." — Ezra Klein [05:20]

Is Abundance a Democratic Platform?

• Klein is somewhat ambivalent; the goal is effective governance, not partisan loyalty:
  • "I would love it if... believing in a bunch of things I believe in—there are other countries where, say, thinking we should decarbonize is not a right–left issue." — Ezra Klein [11:26]

Delivering on Abundance: The Local View from Seattle

Guest: Katie Wilson

• Background: Former community organizer and leader of the Transit Riders Union; initiated her run after a funding win for social housing against a mayor who opposed increased funding via taxes on wealthy corporations [16:57–18:11].
• Drivers of Victory:
  • Affordability Crisis: Housing, childcare, utilities, and everyday costs outpace income—even middle-income residents feel the squeeze.
  • Homelessness Crisis: High and rising rates of homelessness have pushed the issue of affordable housing to the fore.
  • Generational Change: Voters are seeking bold leadership and policy innovation after disillusionment with establishment figures.
  • "People who have decent jobs, who consider themselves to be middle class are just looking around and saying, I don't know how much longer I can hold on in this city." — Katie Wilson [18:41]

What Does “Affordability” Encompass?

• Multifaceted: Includes housing, but also childcare, food, transportation.
• Structural Change Needed: The "pressure cooker" scenario means affordability can't be addressed only through surface tweaks.
  • "Housing is really at the core... and it's also at the core in terms of the levers that the government can pull to make things better." — Katie Wilson [20:25]

Translating Activism into Campaign Success

• Messaging: Wilson's campaign drew on relatable issues (e.g., the high cost of pizza) to tie everyday inconveniences to larger structural failures in policy.
  • "[Showing a pizza slice in a campaign video] cost me $8." — Katie Wilson [21:38]
• Public Education: Advocates for honest, adult conversations with voters about how policy connects to daily life. Emphasizes the need to educate, not just sloganize.
  • "We have to... treat voters like adults and believe that they can actually understand things." — Katie Wilson [22:11]

Relationship with Abundance Agenda

• Seattle’s Urbanist Left: The abundance mindset—upzoning, regulatory reform—has already been part of Seattle’s political DNA.
  • "For some years we've had kind of an urbanist left in Seattle that's basically on board with the abundance agenda when it comes to housing." — Katie Wilson [23:58]
• Critique of the Narrative:
  • Overemphasis on regulatory red tape as the sole problem misses the broader power dynamics and class struggles required for meaningful change.
  • "There's just kind of like a... power analysis maybe that is a little bit missing from their narrative." — Katie Wilson [25:10]

Lessons for National Democrats

• Disconnect from Voters: Party elites are too focused on interest group politics and not enough on the direct, felt experiences of ordinary constituents.
  • "His constituents were worried about paying the rent or paying for their childcare, and he wasn't speaking to that effectively." — Katie Wilson [26:18]
• Vision and Authenticity Matter: Winning requires genuine belief in, and articulation of, a shared vision of the future, not just consultant-tested slogans.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ezra Klein on Democrat “Betrayal”:
  "...a real, on the part of Democrats, betrayal of the people they say they are standing for." [05:27]
• Ezra Klein on Regulatory Accumulation:
  "You let a particular structure sit around for 30 or 40 or 50 years and the special interests begin to wind their way around it..." [09:11]
• Katie Wilson on the Cost of Living:
  "People who have decent jobs, who consider themselves to be middle class are just looking around and saying, I don't know how much longer I can hold on in this city." [18:41]
• Katie Wilson on Campaigning:
  "If you are paying 40%, 50%, 60% of your income every month on your rent, you don't have that much money to go out to eat." [22:11]
• Katie Wilson’s Critique of the Book:
  "I think there's just kind of like a... power analysis maybe that is a little bit missing from their narrative..." [25:10]

---

Important Timestamps

• [02:43] – Ezra Klein introduces the “abundance agenda.”
• [05:02] – Klein details blue-city failures on housing vs. red states.
• [09:49] – Why liberalism should be more results-oriented than process-oriented.
• [11:26] – Klein on partisanship and the broader appeal of abundance.
• [13:14] – Who counts as an “abundance Democrat.”
• [16:34] – Katie Wilson describes her path to mayoral victory in Seattle.
• [18:41] – Discussion of what Wilson’s win signals for progressive change.
• [20:25] – Wilson identifies housing as core to affordability.
• [21:38] – Campaign messaging and using the price of pizza as a relatable symbol.
• [23:58] – Wilson’s take on how the abundance agenda already exists in Seattle.
• [25:10] – Critique: Abundance’s lack of deeper class/power analysis.
• [26:18] – Why Democrats lost touch with their voters and lessons learned.

---

Tone and Style

The episode keeps a direct, policy-focused, and frank tone—blending debates on big ideas with concrete, lived realities in blue cities. The guests, particularly Klein and Wilson, present their arguments with clarity but also express humility, nuance, and a willingness to engage with criticism.

---

Key Takeaways

• Abundance Is a Movement: More than a slogan, it’s driving policy conversations and grassroots organizing in blue cities.
• Policy Needs Outcomes: Progressive cities must deliver tangible outcomes (especially on housing) or risk betraying constituents.
• Real Change Is Hard: Both legal-structural and deeper class-power obstacles must be overcome.
• Local Success = National Lessons: Grounded, authentic leadership and a willingness to educate voters on complex policies are essential for blue cities—and for Democrats nationally—if they are to address spiraling urban challenges.

---

For listeners and policymakers, this episode is a playbook and a caution: why progressive ideals often fall short in practice, and how a new generation of leaders is working to turn abundance from a dream into reality.

Transcript

[Estad Herndon]

So picture this. You open your eyes at dawn and turn in the cool bed sheets. You live in the cocoon of energy that barely leaves a carbon trace. You walk into the kitchen and turn on the sink and water from the ocean pours out the faucet. The air is clean and humming with the purr of electric machines all around you. The year is 2050 and everything is perfect. That's the dream of Abundance, the best selling book by authors Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson. Abundance argues that Democrats have gotten in their own way, and on issues like clean energy, housing and technology, the party's instincts should be one of yes. But as Klein's view has gained more and more popularity, especially in Washington, D.C. it's come under increasing criticism from the left. Coming up on Today Explained from Box, we hear from Ezra on abundance in theory, and we talk to the newly elected mayor of Seattle on the challenges of putting abundance into practice.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

Marshall's buyers are hustling hard to get amazing new gifts into stores right up to the last minute. Like a designer perfume for that friend who never RSVP'd wishlist topping toys for her kids who came too. Belgian chocolates for the neighbor, a cozy scarf for your boss and a wool jacket for your husband that you definitely did not. Almost forget. Marshalls. We get the deals. You give the good stuff even at the last minute.

[Estad Herndon]

Phew.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

Find a Marshall's near you right now.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

Get up to 20% off select online storage solutions put heavy duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid impact resistant design prevents cracking and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select online shelving and tote storage up to 20% off at the Home Depot to organize every room in your home from your garage to your attic, Visit Home Depot info.com how doers get more done do.

[Katie Wilson]

Explain.

[Estad Herndon]

I'm so excited we're doing this. We have Ezra Klein, former and forever Mr. Vox, current Mr. NYT. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Ezra Klein]

Such a pleasure to be on Text.

[Estad Herndon]

You know, Yui wanted to talk to you, especially because we've been thinking through the political themes of the year and abundance obviously really stands out. Your book Abundance was published on March 18 and has instantly become one of the defining political topics of this year. For those who have somehow been living under a rock, can you tell us and just quickly define the abundance agenda for us?

[Ezra Klein]

So Abundance comes out of a series of pieces that me and my co author Derek Thompson wrote, and we were Struggling with the reality that in places where Democrats governed, you were not seeing enough of the things people need get built or produced. So in places like California, New York, Massachusetts, just not enough housing.

[Katie Wilson]

New data shows how far behind the Golden State is when it comes to building new homes.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

New York City lags far behind other large cities when it comes to housing inventory and it's contributing to skyrocketing rents.

[Ezra Klein]

And that's compared, by the way to red states like, you know, Florida or Texas, which have an easier time producing it. A popular West Campus bar will turn into a housing high rise. It's just another example of more apartments coming to Austin.

[Katie Wilson]

Are saying now is the time to buy in South Florida, calling it a buyer's market.

[Ezra Klein]

Under the Biden administration, we were seeing this huge push to decarbonization.

[Gavin Newsom]

I set a goal of having our country reduce 100, 100% carbon pollution free power by 2035. We can do that.

[Ezra Klein]

But there was a lot standing in the way of building the transmission lines, electrical vehicle charger networks, the solar panels, the wind turbines. And so this question of how can you have a liberalism that builds fast enough to achieve liberalism's goals became certainly for me, somewhat obsessing question. How do you have government? You know, particularly when Democrats are running it, the party that believes in government, that when they say we're going to build high speed rail or we're going to build the second Avenue subway, they get that done on time, on budget, quickly. And so people begin to see what government can do for them. So the abundance agenda is the set of questions around how, when government is trying to build something, particularly in the real world, what do you need to have be true about the laws, rules, regulations, government capacity in order for government to deliver the thing it has promised.

[Estad Herndon]

The books talk through several examples where Democratic governance have hindered innovation and progress, kind of like you're mentioning. But we wanted to particularly focus on housing, which is of course a big part of this. You recently wrote a column saying America's pricing problem is, quote, too much money, chasing too few homes. What is it you think about this issue, specifically housing cost, housing supply, that demonstrates the core argument of the abundance agenda.

[Ezra Klein]

So the thing where this issue, I think causes particular heartache for Democrats is that there is no bigger part of a working family's budget or a middle class family's budget than housing. And in the places where Democrats govern, housing costs have gone completely out of control. And that is honestly distinct from places where Republicans govern. So I always say that there is this huge difference between what happens when people move to Austin, Austin or Houston and what happens when they move to San Francisco or Los Angeles. And it said Austin and Houston build more homes for them. And to a first approximation SF and LA don't. And that means it is much more affordable for many people to live in these red states. In the period we're writing the book, you were seeing big exodus, migration out of California, out of New York, out of Illinois because it has become so unaffordable. So to me that is a real on the part of Democrats betrayal of the people they say they are standing for. I mean, I wrote a lot of the book when I was living in San Francisco and I would say that you, you have these, these yard signs where it says like no human being is illegal and kindness is everything. And like everything is zoned for single family housing and the homes cost more than a million dollars to buy. So yeah, it's great to say no human being is illegal and kindness is everything. But if the human beings can't afford to live there, then something's gone really wrong. And so the other thing though that I would say that makes housing kind of interesting and complicated is it, it's actually very hard to solve. I mean Democrats do want to solve it. Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, he promised to build 3.5 million new homes over his tenure when he, when he took office.

[Gavin Newsom]

Let's talk about housing affordability today. Many Californians aren't benefiting from our sky high economy. Housing and homelessness embody this inequity. I'll tackle them head on, spearheading three and a half million new housing units by 2025.

[Ezra Klein]

He's nowhere near on track for that, but it's not like he hasn't been trying. He's suing local cities and has signed dozens of housing bills. It's actually really, really hard when you have ended up in a government equilibrium which is about creating a lot of opportunities to say no to, then unwind that if you need to create the space to say yes to a lot of things rapidly, which is also of course the case in green energy.

[Estad Herndon]

It feels intuitively true also because, you know, I've seen this play out in life. I remember growing up in Chicago where folks were moving that to Georgia, Atlanta, that big way, particularly of black middle class professionals. When we go to places like Arizona and you feel the kind of California refugees of it all, I mean, what has been the barrier to kind of getting, let's say, taking these homes built, you know, who is actually to Blame for the fact that this stuff has not happened because to your point, it has been recognized as a problem.

[Ezra Klein]

It's been recognized as a problem. The who is to blame is particularly on this very complicated because what you have is, oh, my God, like these endless, like overlapping jurisdictions and cities and planning commissions. And what it reflects, I think, is a extended period in progressivism and in progressive governance is why this is worse in blue states where there was a backlash to the overuse of government and private power after the New Deal and there was a correct recognition that we were being heedless with the environment, that there weren't the opportunities for people in communities to make their voices heard. And so it was a series of accomplishments by Ralph Nader and Rachel Carson and many others. Laws and opportunities that were supposed to create more citizen voice, supposed to create the opportunity to sue the government if the government was doing something wrong. Supposed to make sure the government had to think about the consequences of its actions. And that was great. They were the correct solutions to the problems they faced. And then like everything, you let a particular structure sit around for 30 or 40 or 50 years and the special interests begin to wind their way around it. All of a sudden, you know, it becomes very hard to build in any place where, like rich homeowners in Georgetown.

[Katie Wilson]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Know how to hire the lobbyists and the, the planners and the lawyers to make sure nothing can move through. And so then you have to go through another period of institutional renewal to solve the problems you have now. But there isn't. This is a thing people don't always like about abundance. There isn't one villain. It changes also. Issue to issue, though, what makes it hard to build housing in San Francisco is not the same thing that makes it hard to lay down interstate transmission lines. Those are different problems. Another thing I say about the abundance agenda, broadly, because it is other dimensions of it. Right. Science and technology and things like that is it is an effort to say we should have a goal oriented, not a process oriented. Liberalism.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

And to say that liberalism should be very committed to its goals and the process should serve those goals. Not so committed to its process that it cannot achieve its promised goals.

[Estad Herndon]

You know, since the book has come out, we have seen kind of abundant civics groups pop up, particularly in big cities that were mentioned in the book. Places like New York City and out in California, I saw an inclusive abundance group in my inbox the other week. There's college groups. Did you expect this? Was this the point? Did you think this was a political platform for Democrats We.

[Ezra Klein]

We knew that there was electricity around this set of ideas because we'd seen it in the pieces, you know, that I started writing in 2021. And Derek, in the initial piece, naming, sort of. I had the much less good term supply side progressivism.

[Estad Herndon]

There's no. That doesn't fit on the side. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

You can see why abundance won that one. So. So we knew and some of this was happening, like, some of the inclusive abundance groups were already there. I mean, people began picking this up. So. So we knew that we were writing to a movement and a tendency that was already gaining force. And prior to sort of us wrapping a series of ideas in this room of abundance, the ideas themselves. Right. Yimbyism, for instance, or that we need to build fast for decarbonization. So we are standing on the shoulders of giants of activists, of policy intellectuals, and also of a past. Right. Like the New Deal, where they did a lot of things very, very fast. Yeah.

[Estad Herndon]

I also wanted to ask how you see your role. I mean, the impact of this year has certainly been you've always a big voice in terms of media and politics, you know, all that good stuff. But the primacy in terms of Democrats seems to have grown as well. I wondered what you think of it. Like, do you see your job as helping Democrats win?

[Ezra Klein]

I see my job as trying to create good ideas built on an honest assessment of the world that will lead to things being better. I would love it. I would love it if that at this moment did not seem quite so partisan. Right. I would love to say that believing in a bunch of things I believe in. There are other countries where, say, thinking we should decarbonize is not a right left issue.

[Estad Herndon]

Got it. Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Affordable housing, by the way, there's a lot in abundance. It is not right left. Vivek Ramaswamy just had a piece in the New York Times saying that he thinks abundance, if it didn't have all these left coded aesthetics and ideas, could actually be very helpful for Republicans. So I don't think every single idea is Democratic versus Republican. What I will say is that I do think the Trump administration is uniquely lethal to liberal democracy. I think it is almost explicitly trying to create some kind of successor or I might say, predecessor structure to it, a regime of deal making and transaction and, you know, masked ICE agents. And so right now, I do believe that for people who are believe in not just a set of ideals that are in abundance, but in a broader set of ideals about how we live here together and how we have a, you know, a free and fair political system and country creating movements that allow liberal democracy to deliver and be an effective counterweight to right wing populism is is part of how I see my.

[Estad Herndon]

Work that leads me to candidates like Zoramdani or Katie Wilson, the mayor elect in Seattle. Like when you see the kind of populist embraced of some abundance lanes, do you look at those candidates and think those are abundance democr or should I be thinking more folks a little closer to the center?

[Ezra Klein]

The abundance Democrats are the Democrats who deliver abundance. So I am thrilled. By the way, I've seen Democrats of many different stripes and even a couple Republicans pick up some of the ideas and arguments of abundance. But the thing that is going to separate who's real in this and who is not is whether they deliver. So I am, you know, hopeful about Mamdani, but he's going to come in. Governing New York City is famously very difficult and there's a lot of interest moving in all different directions. And so, you know, building a lot more housing is going to be harder to do than implementing a rent freeze. I am very hopeful he can do it, but the question of I want to be very cautious myself, having watched a lot of politicians promise on this and fail, right? As I said, Gavin Newsom talks about abundance a lot. He's actually signed some incredible bills, in my perspective, in the last year or two, but he was not able to deliver the housing change he promised in California. And abundance is in the end, not about what you say, it is about what you deliver. It is an argument that the Democratic Party should be that all government should be judged by whether or not it is able to create, either directly or through creating, the conditions for the private market to create it. The things people need.

[Estad Herndon]

Ezra Klein, formerly a vox, currently co author of the book Abundance and host of the Ezra Klein Show, a New York Times podcast. So how do you actually deliver abundance? Seattle's next mayor has some thoughts. That's coming up.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Give big, Save big with Rack Friday deals at Nordstrom Rack. For a limited time, take an extra 40% off red tag clearance for a total Savings up to 75% off. Save on gifts for everyone on your list from brands like Vince Cole, Haunt, Sam Edelman and more. All sales final and restrictions apply. The best stuff goes fast, so bring your gift list and your wish list to your nearest Nordstrom rack today.

[Rumchata Advertiser]

Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of Rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata Your holiday cocktails just got sweeter. Tap or click the banner for more. Drink responsibly. Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, Natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoa, Wisconsin. All rights reserved.

[Depop Advertiser]

This message may be shocking to many millennials. If you are one, you might want to sit down. Right now, loads of people are searching the following on low rise jeans, halter tops, velour tracksuit, hookah shell necklace, disc belt. You likely placed these in the dark of your closet in 2004, never to be seen again. But if you can find it in yourself to dust them off, there are a lot of people who will give you money for them. Sell on Depop where taste recognizes taste.

[Katie Wilson]

Today explained. I am Katie Wilson, Mayor elect of Seattle, Washington.

[Estad Herndon]

Congratulations on your historic victory and we wanted to talk to you about kind of how you made it happen and what the affordability agenda looks like in practice. To start, can you just give us a summary about how this race came to be, how you won?

[Katie Wilson]

Sure. Well, I mean, it's been a wild ride this year. One year ago today, I had absolutely no thought of running for any elected office, let alone mayor. So it's A lot has happened in the last year. You know, I've spent the last 14 years as a community organizer and coalition builder running an organization called the Transit Riders Union. And you know, I jumped into this race in March, basically in February we had a special election on approving a funding source for our new social housing developers. So we had this social housing developer in Seattle which was approved by voters last year. And this year there was a citizens initiative to basically enact a tax on wealthy corporations to fund that social housing developer. And our current mayor was kind of the face of the opposition campaign to that measure which passed by a landslide in February. And so to me, that kind of showed that our current mayor was very out of touch with the challenges that Seattle residents are facing around affordability and specifically housing affordability. And so I realized there was a lane there and jumped in and quickly realized that, you know, I was part of a larger moment with Mamdani in New York City and, you know, kind of the affordability crisis that people around the country and especially in high cost cities like Seattle, are facing today.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, I mean, should we see your win? You mentioned the kind of Mamdani comparison which I know has happened frequently. Should we see this as a kind of win for Democrats seeking ideological changes, generational change, or is it both.

[Katie Wilson]

I think there's a lot of aspects to it. You know, I think. I think that the affordability crisis really is a big part of this. Right. Coming out of the pandemic, we saw these high rates of inflation, and it's gotten to the point where in cities like Seattle, right, It's not just the lowest income households that are feeling the pinch, right. People who have decent jobs, who consider themselves to be middle class are just looking around and saying, I don't know how much longer I can hold on in this city. Right. Housing costs, childcare costs, you know, grocery costs, restaurant costs, like, everything is so expensive. And so I think that's a really important part of the moment that we're in. I mean, there's also local factors. And, you know, here in Seattle, we have an escalating homelessness crisis. Our rates of unsheltered homelessness are just off the charts, even compared to our pure cities. And so that was also a factor here. And then, you know, I mean, obviously there's generational. There's a kind of a generational aspect to this, and there's. And there's to some extent, you know, a reaction against Trump's election, right, Where I think that. And this is maybe related to the generational shift where people are looking kind of a new Boulder kind of leadership that can meet the moment, and there's a certain kind of maybe transactional establishment Democratic Party politics that obviously failed to meet the moment last year and that people are kind of reacting against and looking for something new.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, I think that's interesting. You mean, you mentioned the focus on the substance that you think this doesn't happen without the kind of focus that you and some others have put on the question of affordability itself. You know, I wanted to go back to your history in community organizing. You know, it seems as if you've been living. Living in these issues for a long time. How will we define the affordability issue in general? Are we just. Are we talking housing costs? Are we talking health care costs? Like, what do you think is under the umbrella that is really pinching people right now?

[Katie Wilson]

I mean, it's really all of the above. But I think in cities like Seattle, housing is really at the core. And it's also at the core in terms of the levers that the government can pull to make things better. You know, we've had. I mean, I moved to Seattle over 20 years ago, and, you know, my husband and I, you know, rode the Amtrak with our stuff in boxes and found an apartment or just a Room in someone's basement that we could rent for $400 a month and got part time jobs and kind of found our feet. And that kind of story is just not possible today. It's this kind of pressure cooker environment.

[Estad Herndon]

Yeah, I was thinking $400 in rain.

[Katie Wilson]

I mean, this was back in 2004, but yeah, I mean, it's just, there's a sense of just immense pressure where you're just hustling 247 just to pay your basic bills. Right. And I think that the housing, you know, the housing crisis is really kind of at the core of that again in cities like Seattle, where housing costs have risen much faster than inflation, much faster than wages.

[Estad Herndon]

I also want to ask how you translate that into a campaign though, because activating this coalition of renters, focusing on the issues like affordability, doesn't always translate into bringing people to the ballot box. One of the things we saw was an ad you ran on social media that was all about the high cost of pizza.

[Katie Wilson]

This is my neighborhood and I just bought this slice of pizza. It cost me $8.

[Estad Herndon]

Can you tell me like how you took your focus as a community organizer and translated it into the mayoral race and specifically about that app?

[Katie Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I'm like totally not a social media person in my personal life at all. And so then having to become like a social media person and be in videos was a little bit of a thing for me. But I did it and you know, with some success.

[Estad Herndon]

We're all YouTubers, you know, get used to it.

[Katie Wilson]

But yeah, I mean, I think for me, the kind of pizza ad, I think it's so important, and this is really something that I hope to carry into the mayor's office, is that we're able to really have an honest conversation with the public where we're educating people about policy. And it's not just about slogans. It's actually about like, okay, why is the cost of pizza so high? How is this related to housing costs? And we have to like, like treat voters like adults and believe that they can actually understand things. And you know, yeah, you need to like make things simple enough that you can explain it in a few minute video, but like you can actually communicate quite a lot in a few minute video. If you are paying 40%, 50%, 60% of your income every month on your rent, you don't have that much money to go out to eat. And so I really think that that kind of like public education and having a real conversation with the public about the challenges that we're facing and why, you know, why they exist and what the solutions are. I think that's super important and I think that that's something. Yeah. That I really wanna continue for the mayor's office.

[Estad Herndon]

We talked earlier to Ezra Klein about his book Abundance and it made a argument that kind of rings true to some of our conversation. You know, one of its core points is that blue cities have not kind of delivered for its constituents and have prioritized things like process or red tape over that kind of delivering that you're talking about. I wanted to know like whether what you thought of that argument, and he specifically makes one in relationship to housing, saying how, you know, people need to embrace kind of the supply side or the role of real estate markets in terms of building new housing supply. Is that a transition that you had to come to or was that something that was natural to you to see? I'm just curious of what you thought of his argument.

[Katie Wilson]

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And you know, fortuitously and actually just nearing the end of the audiobook version of Abundance.

[Estad Herndon]

Great.

[Katie Wilson]

I feel like I spent the whole. I spent the whole campaign, you know, when people asked me whether I'd read it, being like, no, I haven't read it, but I really feel like I've read it and not just because everyone's talking about it on podcasts, but I feel like some of the book's themes are not at all new in Seattle. For some years we've had kind of an urbanist left in Seattle that's basically on board with the abundance agenda when it comes to housing that really recognizes the role that zoning and land use laws have played in slowing housing production. And that is 100% there on changing those laws and on permit reform and on all the things that are necessary.

[Estad Herndon]

That's not a transition.

[Katie Wilson]

That's not a transition. That's something that has been in the air here for some time. I do think that there are some limitations in the kind of desire to have this narrative around. Our problems are all because, well meaning liberals, progressives put all these rules and regulations in place. I think there's a lot of other big factors too that are also important that are maybe not.

[Estad Herndon]

I would love to hear you draw out what you think think are some of the things that go beyond that and the ways you try to shape your politics around other forces too.

[Katie Wilson]

You know, they begin the book with this description of life in 2050. Right. Like once the abundance agenda has been achieved and you know, it sounds great and one of the things that they mention is that, you know, we have a lot more leisure time now because the work week has been shortened because, you know, productivity is so much higher. And when I got to that, I just, like, immediately began thinking of the, like, level of social upheaval and, like, frankly, class struggle that would have to take place in the next quarter century in order for major productivity gains to actually result in a shorter work week. So I think there's just kind of like a. Kind of a power analysis maybe that is a little bit missing from their narrative, which is, like, fine, if they're just aiming to be like, here are a few things that we should do, but if they're pitching it as more of, like, a story that explains everything, right then I think that there's definitely some things that are missing.

[Estad Herndon]

According to the Democratic Party fights that are happening currently is a question of diagnosis, you know, kind of what went wrong and what should we take from even Democratic successes this year? I wanted to put that to you directly. Like, why do you think national Democrats were at such distance from their own voters in the last year? And what do you think they should take from campaigns like yours?

[Katie Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Right. Which is, I mean, just to use our, you know, this. This mayoral election as that capsule. Right. The incumbent mayor had kind of built all the interest groups around him who were going to support his reelection, but he didn't realize that his constituents were worried about paying the rent or paying for their childcare, and he wasn't speaking to that effectively. And so I really think it's about really just understanding where people are at and speaking in a way that resonates with them and also just painting a picture of a future that we want and that we can build together. And there needs to be this sense that you actually believe in it. It's not just message tested, focus group tested, consultant speak, or whatever that you're putting out into the world, but it's actually something that you believe in and that you feel yourself. And so people want that genuineness and that sense of integrity and vision, and that's what wins. And that's something you can't buy.

[Estad Herndon]

Mary Lech Wilson, we appreciate your time, and thank you for taking us through your story. And we'll be watching Seattle.

[Katie Wilson]

Great. Thank you. I hope I wasn't too hard on the abundance. Guys.

[Estad Herndon]

That's Seattle Mayor elect Katie Wilson. Today's show was produced by Miles Bryant, edited by Aminah Al Saadi, fact checked by Laura Bullard and engineered by Patrick Boyd and David Tadashore. And special thanks and shout out to Scott Greenstone, politics reporter for kuow, Seattle's NPR News station, for help with today's show. We're going to be taking a couple days off for the holidays, but we'll be back on Friday with one of our most popular episodes of this year. And you can catch new shows starting on Monday. I'm Estad Herndon. This is TODAY explained.