How Trump saved Canada’s libs

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – "How Trump Saved Canada’s Libs"

Introduction In the April 28, 2025 episode of Today, Explained by Vox, hosts Sean Rameswaram and David Mosscrop delve into the unprecedented Canadian federal election, exploring how former U.S. President Donald Trump's actions inadvertently bolstered the Liberal Party in Canada. Featuring insights from journalist Stephanie Levitz of The Globe and Mail, the discussion unpacks the dynamic interplay between Canadian politics and Trump's provocative rhetoric.

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Election Dynamics and Leadership Changes

The episode opens with the assertion that this Canadian election stands out as "without precedent" (00:08), highlighting the unexpected shifts in campaign strategies and voter sentiments. Stephanie Levitz notes, “We can't change President Trump, so we need a leader that can stand up to him” (00:25), emphasizing the Liberal Party's pivot towards addressing external pressures from the U.S.

David Mosscrop elaborates on the contrasting campaign messages:

“His chief opponent, Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre, is running more on a cost of living narrative” (00:37).

This sets the stage for understanding the Liberals' strategic repositioning under new leadership.

Justin Trudeau’s Resignation and Liberal Revival

A significant turning point in the election narrative is former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's decision to step down. Levitz recalls Trudeau’s ambitious policies from a year prior, aimed at housing, healthcare, and taxation reforms:

“These are things that actually meet people where they are in their cost of living and provide solutions for a better life” (02:26).

However, Trudeau's leadership failed to resonate with voters seeking change, leading to his resignation:

"I intend to resign as party leader, as prime minister after the party selects its next leader" (04:25).

This resignation triggered a leadership race that ultimately introduced Mark Carney as the new Liberal leader, revitalizing the party's standing.

Mark Carney’s Leadership and the Liberal Surge

Mark Carney's appointment marked a strategic shift for the Liberals. Unlike Trudeau, Carney brings a non-political, corporate demeanor with extensive international experience:

“He’s calmer, much more academic, much more corporate, in a way” (07:35).

His focus on positioning Canada against Trump's tariffs and trade threats reassured voters, particularly older demographics that had previously leaned towards the Liberals. Levitz remarks:

“We didn't ask for this fight, but Canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves” (05:51).

This renewed confidence among voters contributed to the Liberal Party's resurgence in the polls.

Pierre Poilievre’s Conservative Appeal and Challenges

Pierre Poilievre, leading the Conservatives, capitalized on the cost of living crisis, advocating for economic reforms and reduced government intervention:

“Build more homes, grow more food” (09:11).

Despite his effective rhetoric and initial popularity, Poilievre's resemblance to Trump posed challenges:

“When people watch Mr. Poilievre or they listen to him, they come away thinking, ugh, it's like he's kind of Trumpy” (10:14).

This perception hindered his ability to fully capitalize on the nationalist wave sparked by Trump's antagonistic stance towards Canada.

Cultural Backlash and Nationalism in Canada

The episode delves into the cultural ramifications of Trump's policies, which ignited a surge in Canadian nationalism. Levitz describes a shift in consumer behavior and national pride:

“Nobody really took it as a joke. It was at best an insult and at worst a credible threat” (17:23).

This sentiment manifested in boycotts of American products and a resurgence of Canadian cultural symbols, such as the "I am Canadian" campaign. The "elbows up" movement, inspired by Mike Myers' SNL skit, became a rallying cry symbolizing Canadian resilience and refusal to back down:

“Elbows up time, ladies and gentlemen. Canada will never bend” (23:27).

Economic and Policy Implications

Levitz emphasizes the long-term economic shifts resulting from the strained U.S.-Canada relationship. Increased tariffs and trade barriers forced Canada to diversify its economic partnerships and invest in domestic infrastructure:

“We are mourning that loss” (25:44).

These policy changes are expected to have lasting impacts on Canada's economy, pushing the nation towards greater self-reliance and alternative trade alliances.

Conclusion

The episode concludes by reflecting on the profound ways in which Donald Trump's antagonistic policies inadvertently unified and strengthened the Liberal Party in Canada. As Mark Carney leads the Liberals with a focus on resilience and strategic economic reforms, the Canadian electorate finds itself navigating a transformed political landscape shaped by external pressures and internal revival.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Stephanie Levitz (00:25): “We can't change President Trump, so we need a leader that can stand up to him.”
• David Mosscrop (00:37): “His chief opponent, Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre, is running more on a cost of living narrative.”
• Stephanie Levitz (05:51): “We didn't ask for this fight, but Canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves.”
• David Mosscrop (07:35): “He’s calmer, much more academic, much more corporate, in a way.”
• Stephanie Levitz (09:11): “Build more homes, grow more food.”
• Stephanie Levitz (17:23): “Nobody really took it as a joke. It was at best an insult and at worst a credible threat.”
• Stephanie Levitz (23:27): “Elbows up time, ladies and gentlemen. Canada will never bend.”
• Stephanie Levitz (25:44): “We are mourning that loss.”

This comprehensive analysis provides listeners with a detailed understanding of the election's unique circumstances, the interplay between Canadian and American politics, and the cultural shifts influencing voter behavior.

Transcript

[Sean Ramasfuram]

It's election day in Canada, which is nothing new for reporter Stephanie Levitz.

[David Mosscrop]

I have covered. I believe this is my ninth federal election.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

But Stephanie says this one is without precedent.

[David Mosscrop]

How it looked like the next campaign in this country was gonna go and it feels like that's all been flipped on its head. So you have the liberal campaign, which is led by Mark Carney, which is driving a narrative that says he's the guy to take on US President Donald Trump.

[Stephanie Levitz]

We can't change President Trump, so we need a leader that can stand up to him.

[David Mosscrop]

His chief opponent, Conservative leader Pierre Poliev. Running more on a cost of living narrative.

[Stephanie Levitz]

We cannot afford a fourth liberal term.

[David Mosscrop]

It's as though they're kind of evaluating them and imagining a boardroom and imagining the US President at one end of the table and this leader at the other end of the table. And which one do I want to see in that seat?

[Sean Ramasfuram]

How Trump's 51st state talk may have saved Canada's libs. Coming up on Today Explained.

[Stephanie Levitz]

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[Sean Ramasfuram]

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[Stephanie Levitz]

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[Sean Ramasfuram]

When we sat down with Stephanie Levitz from the Globe and Mail, we started talking about how it was just about a year ago that we sat down with former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He was eager to talk about his ambitious plans to invest in housing construction, affordable health care and childcare. Raising capital gains taxes.

[Stephanie Levitz]

These are things that actually meet people where they are in their cost of living and provide solutions for a better life. Those choices are gonna be on the table in the next election. And I'm confident that Canadians are gonna remain responsible, ambitious, and optimistic about their future.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

You know, I asked him if he should just step aside, and he said, no, I still have something to offer the Canadian people. But it turned out the Canadian people weren't buying what he was selling.

[David Mosscrop]

I mean, that's pretty much it, right? When I think back about when he went on your podcast, he was trying to reach a different group of voters. He was trying to reach people, frankly, that his opponent, Conservative leader Pierre Poliev, had been so successful reaching, which was millennials, younger Canadians, people really worried about their futures. And at that moment in time, those people were squarely behind Pierre Poliev, and they weren't interested in Justin Trudeau, because part of it was, well, thanks. Where you been? You've already been in power for nine years.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

And so, as this campaign sort of drags on, Trudeau has to finally face the music. And he announces that he will be stepping aside. But it seems like right as he's in the process of stepping aside, all of a sudden, the Liberals do get a boost from a very unlikely source. Is that accurate?

[Stephanie Levitz]

Canada and the United States. That would really be something. You get rid of that artificially drawn line, and you take a look at what that looks like.

[David Mosscrop]

This is one of the wild turning points of our election. So you have the Liberals down in the dumps. Nothing is going right for them. And then in December, in this, like, Shakespearean political moment, his finance minister and Deputy Prime Minister, Christia Freeland quit on the very morning she was supposed to deliver a major economic update for the government. And when she quit, it was to tell Justin Trudeau that she didn't think he had the chops to guide the country in a trade war with the United States. Now, in a letter posted to X addressed to the Prime Minister, Freeland says the Prime Minister and her have found.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Themselves at odds over the past few.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Weeks about the best path forward for Canada.

[Stephanie Levitz]

There is one line that is particularly pointed where she says that we need to eschew political gimmicks that the country can ill afford.

[David Mosscrop]

Trudeau sees the writing on the wall, decides to go.

[Stephanie Levitz]

I intend to resign as party leader, as prime minister after the party selects its next leader.

[David Mosscrop]

But because he launches a leadership race in the interim, now, while he's still Prime Minister, he only needs to focus on one thing, not all the things. And that thing, that big, big thing that was blotting out the sun in Canada, was Donald Trump and the launch of the tariff war.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Mr. President is there anything China, Canada and Mexico can do tonight to forestall your implementation of tariffs tomorrow?

[David Mosscrop]

No, not, not right now, no. And from that point on, when you saw Justin Trudeau singularly focused on being.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Captain Canada, Canadians are reasonable and we are polite, but we will not back down from a fight which is a.

[David Mosscrop]

Role that suits him, that comes naturally to him because of his upbringing, because his father was a Prime minister. People started sort of responding to the Liberals in a very different way than they'd been responding to them for months. And you begin to see the polls tick, tick, tick, tick up for the Liberals. Then along comes the new Liberal leader, Mark Carney. And that's when you really begin to see the polls take off for the Liberal Party.

[Stephanie Levitz]

We didn't ask for this fight, but Canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves. So the Americans, they should make no mistake in trade, as in hockey, Canada will win.

[David Mosscrop]

And under this new guy, who's very different than Justin Trudeau in all sorts of ways, people who had turned their backs on the Liberals began turning towards them. People who were worried about, you know, the future of this country, but used to put those votes in a much more progressive political party, the New Democrats it was called. They started looking to the Liberal Party. People in Quebec, where the federal political party there is called the Bloc Quebecois, they are a separatist party. Incredibly, Quebecers were looking towards the Liberal Party.

[Stephanie Levitz]

The Liberal pitch in Quebec is that only the Liberals can stand up to President Donald Trump. But just like elsewhere in Canada, Quebecers voting intentions and the way they looked at this federal election was completely upended.

[David Mosscrop]

And it was this swing of fortunes for the Liberals. And now they're running neck and neck with their former opponents.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Mark Carney, different from Trudeau in some ways, maybe similar to Trudeau, but tell us how he contrasts with Justin Trudeau, especially for the Canadian voters right now.

[David Mosscrop]

Sure. I mean, there's a generational difference. That's a big one. Right. Mark Carney is 60, he's got grown children. He has worked in a variety of high profile jobs. He was the governor of the bank of Canada, which is the equivalent of the head of the Fed in the us. He was the governor of the bank of England. He had a, a job at the un sort of directing sustainable climate initiatives.

[Stephanie Levitz]

If the world truly wants revolution towards a more sustainable, resilient and fair energy system, the finance for it will be there.

[David Mosscrop]

He's got this international resume. He has never served a day in elected office. He is definitely not a politician. And his demeanor Whereas Justin Trudeau had this energy, this buoyancy, and this dramatic effect that he would often bring to a lot of what he did. Mark Carney is like the opposite of that. He's calmer, much more academic, much more corporate, in a way. And what's really interesting about that, just to go back to Justin Trudeau for a second, trying to reach Those millennial voters, Mr. Carney has brought back the boomers. He has brought back this voting cohort that is, they are reliable voters in every single election. And they are turning to him and they're saying, yeah, that guy.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

And let's talk about Carney in relation to his opposition. Tell people who Pierre Poliev is and what his appeal is in this election right now.

[David Mosscrop]

Sure. So Pierre Poliev is in his mid-40s. He's got two young kids. He really has cut his teeth over the years as being a politician who can really meet particular moments very well. And he rode to a tremendous degree of success, became leader of his party in the easing out of the pandemic era, where the restrictions in Canada had been, in some cases, quite dramatic. People were chomping at the bit for freedom. They wanted the government out of their life. And so he began to jump on this narrative, let's remove the government gatekeepers.

[Stephanie Levitz]

To build more homes, grow more food.

[David Mosscrop]

And produce more energy right here in Canada, that he was really successful in beating Justin Trudeau over the head with on a daily basis for, like, two years. And people responded. Mr. Poliev is a master of the rhetorical flourish. He loves slogans, he loves things that rhyme. Axe the tax, tax is up, costs.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Up, crime's up, time's up.

[David Mosscrop]

And, you know, some of that stuff really works for people because it makes the message stick. And he's been really successful with that message up until the moment or the series of moments in which Donald Trump got elected, Justin Trudeau stepped down, and Mark Carney got himself elected Liberal leader. And that message track, while still very resonant with Canadians, just can't take enough support away from Mark Carney.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Hmm.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

I mean, I've heard Poli have referred to as Canadian Trump. Now, how does a Canadian Trump compete in an election where Trump has become such a boogeyman for Canadians?

[David Mosscrop]

And therein lies the issue, right? When people watch Mr. Pollyv or they listen to him, they come away thinking, ugh, it's like he's kind of Trumpy.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Listen, I think to have 10 or 15,000 people at one political rally, this.

[David Mosscrop]

Is a movement like, we've never Seen, because people want change. They want to put our country first for a change. And it's in the way he speaks. It's in his rhetoric, the hyperbole, the sloganeering. Trudeau gets protection from the cancel culture, woke warriors. And I will replace the woke culture.

[Stephanie Levitz]

With a warrior culture, a common sense, Canada first plan.

[David Mosscrop]

And so when Mr. Pollyv gives off an echo of that, it sends people away.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Okay. And then either way, whoever wins, how do they stand up to Trump differently than, say, Trudeau and Carney have done so far?

[David Mosscrop]

Yeah, this one's interesting. I mean, Mr. Carney does have a lot of contacts and connections in the international geopolitical world. And, you know, he's made a point of saying that the old relationship with the United States, there is a new path forward. And so he'll have to figure out how to shape that path and what those conversations with Mr. Trump look like. Conversely, Mr. Poliev takes a much more domestic facing view of things, I think in terms of standing up to Trump, he's promising to do things that rebuild our economy quite quickly. Developing natural resources, building more homes. And so we'll see. I don't know. I mean, Mr. Trump has said not nice things about Pierre Poliev.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Well, I think his biggest problem is.

[Stephanie Levitz]

He'S not a MAGA guy. You know, he's really not. He's not a Trump guy at all.

[David Mosscrop]

Which is weird and funny, I guess. I don't know. And he has been slightly more conciliatory, shall we say, to Mr. Carney than he was ever to Justin Trudeau. Huh. He has not referred to Mr. Carney as Governor Carney. He has referred to him as Prime Minister.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Wow.

[Stephanie Levitz]

But we had a very good talk, the Prime Minister and myself, and I think things are going to work out very well between Canada and the United States. Yeah. Please, go ahead.

[David Mosscrop]

So that's an interesting tonal switch.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Same party, different attitude, eh?

[David Mosscrop]

Same party, different attitude. And, you know, there's lots of folks in Canada who will say that some degree of the animosity that Mr. Trump has displayed to our country was born out of a personal animosity for Justin Trudeau. Just didn't like the guy. They didn't get along. Famous clash when Canada hosted the G7.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Well, he's two faced.

[David Mosscrop]

Saw a grudge match, rumors swirling that.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Melania crushes on Justin. I don't know.

[David Mosscrop]

You know what? All politics is personal at the end of the day. And if you can't make a personal relationship with world leaders, that sometimes that's not gonna work to your advantage. Can Mr. Carney build that relationship with Mr. Trump? We'll see. Can Mr. Polly have built that relationship with Mr. Trump? We'll see.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

You can read Stephanie Levitz at theglobendmail.com elbows up when we're back. Today explained support for the program comes from Quince. Don't do the same old thing this Mother's Day for your mother. Don't get her another bird themed gift because she likes birding. Don't get her another garlic peeler because she likes Italian food. Break away from those tired patterns. With Quince, you could be getting her a cashmere sweater from $50 from Quince, 14 karat gold jewelry from Quint's Italian leather, bags from Quince, fragrances from Quince and more. Just ask our colleague Nisha Chetal.

[Stephanie Levitz]

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[Stephanie Levitz]

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[David Mosscrop]

And she tends to like much more.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Of a traditional arrangement with, like, roses and lilies. The roses were beautiful. Yeah.

[David Mosscrop]

They felt very fresh, smelled lovely.

[Stephanie Levitz]

They also opened up really nicely.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

To claim your double your roses offer, you can go to 1-800-flowers.com explained. That's 1,800-flowers.Com explained. Canada is the second largest landmass, the.

[Stephanie Levitz]

First Nation of Lucky, and the best part of North America.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

My name is Sean Ramasfuram, Today explained here with David.

[Stephanie Levitz]

David Mossrop, Canadian, born in Peterborough, Ontario, and spent most of my young life in central Ontario, although, incidentally, my late father was American. In case anyone is wondering if I might be a sleeper agent, I'm not, but I want to just get that out off the top, just in case.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

David's also a political columnist and podcast host, and he says perhaps unlike most Americans, Canadians are taking Trump's 51st state comments pretty seriously here.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Nobody really took it as a joke. It was at best an insult and at worst a credible threat. And I think for a lot of people, the calculus was, okay, well, this might not happen. It probably won't happen in the sense that we're going to get invaded troops going over the border. But when the hegemon and your neighbor along the world's longest undefended border, at least for now, starts talking about annexation, you think, okay, maybe this is something we should take seriously, you know, just in case. And of course, that accompanied real economic threats that we started to feel immediately. And so that was a real one, two punch that that hit. And in the meantime, there were some Americans, including people like Steve Bannon, saying China and Russia, the great powers, and the United States fighting it out over.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

The Arctic is going to be the.

[Stephanie Levitz]

New great game of the 21st century. Canada, you are thrust into the middle of that, and quite frankly, you're the great prize of that. It's like, okay, well, then, we're listening.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

So what did you do as a country? It's not like Justin Trudeau sent troops to the border, is it?

[Stephanie Levitz]

Well, yes and no. No, not in the sense we didn't send troops to the border to go defend because that would be an exercise in futility. We don't have that many troops to begin with.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

It's a huge border.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Yeah, they're stretched a little thin as it is. It's a long border. But incidentally, as it happens, as Trump started in the early days, said, well, you know, we're going to hit Canada with tariffs because of fentanyl and because of a lax border, the fentanyl coming through Canada is massive. The government under at the time, Justin Trudeau said, okay, well, we're going to start patrolling the border with Black Hawk helicopters. We're going to send drones, we're going to declare drug cartels terrorists. We launched a $1.3 billion border plan that is already showing results because we, too, are devastated by the scourge that is fentanyl. And incidentally, it turns out that border apprehensions, according to the White House, are down. But as you can imagine, tariffs are not.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Okay, so there's some real practical reactions there. What about the cultural reaction?

[Stephanie Levitz]

The cultural reaction has been fascinating because at no time in my life, I'm a spry 41 and a half, but at no time in my life have I seen this sort of surge of nationalism that's been so widespread and sustained, at least so far and rapid, and it's manifest itself in all kinds of ways. We saw the booing of the Star Spangled Banner at sports events, which was.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Actually encouraged by the Prime Minister of Canada, if I recall correctly.

[Stephanie Levitz]

And, yeah, we're probably going to keep booing the American anthem. Yeah, there was a kind of hedging on that. But let me tell Americans, we're not booing you. We're not booing your teams, we're not booing your players. We're booing a policy that is designed to hurt us. We pulled booze off the shelves from the United States. A handful of provinces here, including mine in Ontario and British Columbia, straight up said, okay, the state liquor distributor and retailer is simply not going to carry alcohol. And since then, it's only been Canadian spirits and beer. There was a return of the I am Canadian, this iconic I am Canadian beer commercial from the early 2000s.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Hey, I'm. I'm not a lumberjack or a fur trader, and I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber or own a dog sled.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Jeff Douglas, talking about these stereotypical Canadian things, you know, has a flag waved on the screen in the background. I believe in peacekeeping, not policing diversity, not Assimilation. And that the beaver is a truly.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Proud and noble animal.

[Stephanie Levitz]

You go to grocery stores and you see American products sitting there on the shelves while Canadian products are empty. And. And even I was part of this. I went to the grocery store one day and I wanted to make poutine because I guess I felt like being a stereotype, something you shouldn't do every day because it's. It's. It's heavy.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Especially as you got to get to your 40s. Yeah.

[Stephanie Levitz]

Once you get. Yeah. As soon as you get into Your spry early 40s, don't eat poutine every day. I'm not that kind of doctor, but I think that's solid advice. And I went in and I picked up a can of gravy, and I get to the cache and I look at it, and it's called Americano. I'm like, I should have noticed this earlier. So I go back down, haul my butt back down the aisle, and I went and I checked the label to be sure, and sure enough, it comes from the United States, and I put it back on the shelf and I got a different gravy, and I walked back and paid for it and left the store.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

There was even this great instructional video. Right. Also, you know, comedic, but telling Canadians how to go about boycotting U.S. products. Right.

[Stephanie Levitz]

You were going to buy American maple syrup. Oh, okay. That costs way more. So does freedom, which they have. They're not traveling to the United States either. Bookings are way down. Border crossings, both for Canadians and Americans, are way down. And this is, you know, two deeply integrated economies, both economically and culturally, a trade relationship worth a trillion dollars a year. 75% of Canadian exports go stateside, and people all of a sudden say no. It's both an economic and cultural imperative that I start to push back against this. And it came out of nowhere because, you know, prior to Trump trash talking Canada, threatening Canada and levying tariffs, this wasn't really on the radar.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

And we'd be remiss to talk about the culture of the backlash in Canada without talking about elbows up. Could you explain that for people who didn't know what Mike Myers was saying? Snl.

[Stephanie Levitz]

That's right. This has become both a rallying cry and a meme and a little bit cringe in Canada. It was a genuine moment that's also been appropriated by politicians. Elbows up. And it's elbows up time, ladies and gentlemen. Canada will never bend. We will never kiss the gangster's ring. But let me ask you, Mr. Prime Minister, will there always be a Canada There will always be a Canada. All right, elbows up. Elbows up. People on social media, in some cases have put little emojis in their profiles with hashtags that say elbows up. And it comes from Mike Myers going on snl, and he's wearing a Canada's not for Sale shirt, and he puts up his elbow and mouth. Elbows up. In reference to the hockey expression that basically means get ready to. To fight, get ready to stand up for yourself. And some people liken it back to hockey legend Gordie Howe, who was quite famous for throwing elbows.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Do you think it dissipates after the election, or does that more so depend on Trump's threats that follow the election?

[Stephanie Levitz]

Well, this is it. I mean, I think every time Trump opens his mouth and starts speaking off about the 51st state or threatening another round of tariffs, it comes back. Even if it settles a little bit, it comes back. And I think the suspicion and the anger and the sense of betrayal that is expressed culturally and politically is going to lead to a remaking of public policy that's going to lock in those changes. Because once you said, okay, well, I'm going to start shipping goods and services to other countries, I'm going to make my business plans based on that. I'm going to build a bigger east, west electricity grid instead of running it north, south, south, I'm going to ship. I'm going to build pipelines to ship oil and gas east, west and out on the ocean instead of to the south. Well, then you're kind of locked into that new arrangement because it's expensive and difficult to change it. And so, as Mark Carney, the Prime Minister himself, has said, you know, the relationship has fundamentally changed for good. And I think a lot of people feel that way.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

And are people mournful of it?

[Stephanie Levitz]

I think mournful is exactly the right word because that's how I feel. Millions of us really deeply love Americans, but don't love what the American administration is doing to our country and our relationship. And it feels like those ties that bind have been severed by. By that administration. And, yeah, we're mourning that loss. And because it kind of feels like losing a family member, I can't even cheer for the Red Wings anymore. Do I have to be a Habs fan now? God knows I'm not going to be a Leafs fan, but do I have to have. Ouch. Yeah, I know there is a kind of light, jokey side to this, a kind of spy versus spy side to it, but then you start digging and you're like, oh, the Trump tariffs could decimate entire industries and put cities out of work and industries out of work and drive Canada into a recession and people would lose their homes. And you're like, that jokey bit stops at the water's edge. And so the cultural expressions are going to reflect that. And so maybe that means getting a Habs jersey.

[Sean Ramasfuram]

Hey, go Leafs, go. David Mosscrop is working on a book about Canadian nationalism and he's got a sub stack. You can find it@david mosscrop.com that's M O S C R O P Abishai Artsy produced our show today. That's a R T S Y Amina Al Saadi Edited Andrea Christensdotter and Patrick Boyd Mix Gabrielle Bur Bay and Laura Bullard Check the facts and wait. My Spidey sense is tingling. It must be because it's Laura's birthday. Happy birthday, Laura. From everyone at Today Expl.