Today, Explained – "Is America Still Capitalist?" (August 19, 2025)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode, hosted by Noel King, explores whether the United States under President Trump’s second term is diverging from capitalism as traditionally understood. Using examples of recent economic interventions—like governmental involvement in major corporations, tariffs, and direct corporate pressure—the hosts and guests debate if America can still be described as capitalist, and what these changes mean for the nation’s economic future.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What is 'Capitalism' in America? (02:28–04:03)

• Traditional Definition:
  Tracy Alloway (Bloomberg’s Odd Lots co-host) outlines "classic" US capitalism as private ownership, market allocation of resources, and government non-interference.
  • “A pure free market capitalist economy is probably something that has only ever existed in an economist’s textbook... For most of history, there has always been a role for government.” (03:36 – Tracy Alloway)
• Subjectivity & Complexity:
  The meaning of capitalism is debated, and people often have different interpretations.

Memorable Exchange:
"So it is like porn."
"You said it, not me."
— Noel King & Tracy Alloway, 04:03–04:07

Trump’s Economic Interventions: Breaking with Tradition (04:07–08:27)

• Nvidia & Revenue-Sharing:
  The Trump administration now demands a 15% share of Nvidia’s revenue if it sells advanced AI chips to China.
  • “That kind of revenue sharing agreement for market access … pretty unusual when it comes to U.S. economic policy.” (05:01 - Tracy Alloway)
• Nationalizing US Steel – The ‘Golden Share’ Approach:
  The US government has taken a controlling stake in US Steel—a concept borrowed from China’s state-guided capitalism.
  • "The golden share … gives the US government a lot of corporate control … things like where are they going to move production or where are they going to be headquartered … that gives you total control." (06:20–06:39 - Tracy Alloway)
• Tariffs & Price Controls:
  Trump told CEOs not to raise prices after tariffs, suggesting companies “eat the tariffs” instead of passing costs to consumers—a direct intervention in market pricing.
  • “The fact that, you know, it’s kind of an emergency of Trump's own making in this instance … that seems pretty circular.” (07:52 – Tracy Alloway)

Is the US Becoming More Like China? (08:27–11:20)

• Echoes of China’s State Capitalism:
  The hosts discuss how US policy increasingly resembles Chinese industrial policy, with broader state intervention and strategic sector targeting.

“Instead, what we’ve sort of seen is that the US is moving closer to China in a number of ways... It's not exclusively a Trump phenomenon... The Biden administration ... took on a much more active industrial policy role after the pandemic.”
— Tracy Alloway (09:29–10:10)

• Global Contextualization:
  Reference to the past assumption that China would "Americanize" economically, but instead the US is inching towards “Chinafication.”

Potential Pitfalls: Overproduction and Market Distortions (11:20–13:20)

• Problems with State-Led Industrial Policy:
  China’s active government involvement led to massive overproduction (e.g., cars, solar panels, EVs—more than 100% of global demand) and underperforming businesses.

"If you look at the Chinese stock market … it has gone sideways for 20 years … because you have a lot of companies ... not necessarily doing so at a profit. There’s an overproduction issue."
— Tracy Alloway (12:25)

• US Risks:
  Overproduction, waste, and misdirected government incentives could become US problems if the trend escalates.

A Socialist’s Take: Bhaskar Sunkara on State Intervention (17:42–27:03)

State Involvement: Principle and Practice

• Bhaskar Sunkara (The Nation, Jacobin):
  • Supports more democratic oversight of markets.
  • Believes state intervention is not inherently socialist or anti-capitalist—context and execution matter.
  • Historical examples show right-wing governments heavily intervening in markets (South Korea, Taiwan).

“I think we often frame the free market as a conservative ideal and state intervention as a socialist ideal. But history shows it’s really a lot more complicated than that.”
— Bhaskar Sunkara (18:51)

Concerns about Trump’s “Ad Hoc” Approach

• Laments lack of coherent, long-term strategy; Trump’s approach is characterized as whimsical favoritism.
  • “My worry with Trump’s approach is that it looks more like ad hoc favoritism and punishing some industries and subsidizing others at a whim and less like a long-term plan.” (20:39)

Tariffs & Industrial Policy: Double-Edged Swords

• Tariffs justified as an industrial tool, but effectiveness depends on clear strategy.
  • Praises Biden for using tariffs to stimulate job growth, criticizes Trump’s lack of planning.

“I think there's really a place for tariff in the toolkit of creating a viable economy… But in this particular case, I just can’t see the long-term plan behind Trump’s use of tariffs.”
— Bhaskar Sunkara (20:42)

Strongman Tactics: Populism vs. Sustainability

• Trump’s direct pressure on companies to placate consumers is appealing but unsustainable.

  • “I’m not impressed because I don’t think it's sustainable.” (22:16)

• Postulates that Trump can get away with strongman tactics because of the business goodwill he built.

  • Predicts a backlash if the left pursues similar tactics.

Comparing Left and Right: Trump vs. Mamdani (23:53–26:14)

• Debate over whether both Trump and left-wing socialists (e.g., Zohran Mamdani) are converging on state intervention.
  • Sunkara insists approaches and goals are fundamentally different: Trump extends tax cuts and privileges to the wealthy; Mamdani wants to redistribute wealth, create public goods, and help working people.

"Trump is redistributing wealth from the bottom to the top ... Zoram Hamdani ... wants to invest more in public goods ... wants to raise the floor for working people."
— Bhaskar Sunkara (24:23)

Final Assessment: Is America Still Capitalist? (26:02–27:10)

• The guests and hosts agree the US is undergoing significant changes, but Sunkara argues that Trump’s interventions are moving America away from both his socialist ideal and a classic capitalist model—reflecting a trend toward chaotic, self-serving economic policy that could have lasting consequences.

“Trump is taking us further away from my vision of a good society and further away from any vision of a socialist society. I think … he’s going to create a backlash that makes it harder for the left to use them [economic tools] in future as well.”
— Bhaskar Sunkara (26:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defining Capitalism:
  “A pure free market capitalist economy is probably something that has only ever existed in like an economist's textbook.” — Tracy Alloway (03:36)
• On Trump’s Strongman Price Controls:
  “Don’t you dare raise prices. Truth, Social, Walmart and China, they should, as it is said, eat the tariffs and not charge value customers anything.” — Quoted via Trump, paraphrased by Noel King (07:03)
• On the China Parallel:
  "The US is moving closer to China in a number of ways." — Tracy Alloway (09:29)
• On Overproduction:
  "China alone is producing more than 100% of global demand for these products, flooding markets, undermining competition, putting at risk livelihoods and businesses around the world." — Bhaskar Sunkara (12:14)
• On State Intervention and Policy Consistency:
  “My worry with Trump’s approach is that it looks more like ad hoc favoritism … and less like a long-term plan.” — Bhaskar Sunkara (20:39)
• On Socialist vs. Trumpian Intervention:
  “Trump is redistributing wealth from the bottom to the top … Zoram Hamdani... wants to invest more in public goods." — Bhaskar Sunkara (24:23)
• On America’s Direction:
  “Trump is taking us further away from my vision of a good society and … any vision of a socialist society." — Bhaskar Sunkara (26:18)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Definition of Capitalism: 02:28–04:03
• Nvidia & Golden Share/US Steel: 04:27–07:03
• Tariff Price Control Case: 07:03–07:52
• Parallels to China: 08:27–11:20
• Overproduction Risks: 11:20–13:20
• Socialist Analysis (Bhaskar Sunkara): 17:42–27:10

Conclusion

The episode provocatively questions whether the US remains a capitalist nation as its government becomes more actively involved in directing key sectors, using tools reminiscent of Chinese state capitalism. Although interventions are not new, their scale, style, and rationale represent a marked departure from recent norms. The conversation concludes with skepticism that America is moving toward socialism—rather, panelists see the country veering into uncharted, hybrid territory, raising concerns about the long-term impacts of erratic, personalized economic governance.