Late night’s long goodbye

Summary

Podcast Summary: Today, Explained – "Late Night's Long Goodbye"

Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Sean Rameswaram
Guests: Lucas Shaw (Bloomberg News), Larry Wilmore (comedian, former host of The Nightly Show)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Today, Explained delves into the cultural, financial, and political factors behind the end of the traditional late-night TV era, focusing on Stephen Colbert’s departure from CBS’s “The Late Show.” The hosts analyze Colbert's exit, network economics, the impact of modern politics on comedy, and the future of the late-night slot. Industry insider Lucas Shaw and comedian Larry Wilmore join Sean Rameswaram for a candid discussion about why late-night is vanishing, what replaces it, and whether the world really cares.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stephen Colbert’s Exit and the End of an Era

• Colbert says goodbye: The episode begins by recounting Colbert’s star-studded final shows, filled with celebrity guests but little open discussion about the "highly unusual circumstances" of his departure ([00:00]).
• Political interference: Musical guest Larry Wilmore references Colbert’s ouster as a result of “a president who can’t take a joke,” hinting at the chilling effect of politics on comedy ([00:38]).
  • Quote: “You’re the first guy in America who's lost his show because we got a president who can’t take a joke.” – Larry Wilmore ([00:41])

2. Declining Industry & Ratings Realities

• Ratings crash: Lucas Shaw highlights the sharp ratings drop—from 8 million viewers at Colbert’s debut to around 2 million—and a 50% decrease in advertising revenue ([02:18]).
  • Quote: “[Late night] is the declining part of the business.” – Lucas Shaw ([02:18])
• Network cost-cutting: Networks are slashing entertainment budgets, focusing on bigger money-makers like live sports, to mitigate losses ([02:54]; [03:05]).

3. Web and Political Headwinds

• Digital irrelevance: Colbert’s limited web presence left him less resilient compared to web-savvy rivals ([03:21]).
• White House pressure: Trump’s public hostility toward late-night hosts and CBS’s awkward timing with its Skydance merger fueled speculation about political interference ([03:42]).
  • Quote: “There’s been this perception that Donald Trump and politics had a big role in the firing of Stephen Colbert.” – Lucas Shaw ([03:42])
• No "smoking gun": Shaw clarifies there is no concrete evidence of direct political coercion, but notes the difficulty in ever proving such influence ([04:17]).

4. Trends and Fallout in Late-Night TV

• Threat to other hosts: Jimmy Kimmel and Seth Meyers remain for now, but network patience and profitability are wearing thin, especially with political friction ([05:15]).
• Kimmel's backlash: Kimmel faced affiliate boycotts after controversial remarks and political jokes but ultimately survived due to strong public support ([05:41]; [06:12]).
  • Quote: “Our freedom to speak is what they admire most about this country…and it is so.” – Lucas Shaw (reading Kimmel's on-air statement, [06:12])

5. The Changing Format of Late Night

• Viral segments over substance: Today’s late-night shows are optimized for short online clips rather than live TV events, which generates less revenue for networks ([07:36]).
• Network economics: CBS replaced Colbert’s show not with another studio show but with paid programming (“Comics Unleashed” and “Funny You Should Ask”) bought by Byron Allen ([10:01]).
  • Quote: “He is actually buying the time slot. He’s essentially paying CBS to put his show on the air.” – Lucas Shaw ([10:01])

6. What’s Lost—and What Replaces It

• Decline of monoculture: With audiences scattered across YouTube, podcasts, and streaming, late night can no longer serve as a national cultural touchstone ([12:06]).
• Rise of podcasts & YouTube: Shows like “Hot Ones” and “SmartLess” are cited as the new central venues for celebrity interviews and comedy ([13:09]).
• Audience indifference: Shaw and Rameswaram suggest that nostalgia outstrips real viewer interest—if Colbert’s audience had truly cared, he’d still be around ([13:33]).
  • Quote: “If more people cared about Colbert and actually watched his show, he’d still be on the air.” – Lucas Shaw ([13:33])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the fall of late night:
  “I just thought Johnny Carson came with the television set.” – Sean Rameswaram ([12:03])

• On what’s replacing late night:
  “The closest thing to late night we have now…is basically podcasts and YouTube.” – Lucas Shaw ([13:01])

• On show business logic:
  “Showbiz is the opposite of logic. It is the opposite and the antithesis. It has never followed logic… The color Hollywood cares about most is green, period.” – Larry Wilmore ([25:30])

• On the difference between broad and niche entertainment:
  “Late night shows are broadcasting… Z Way is involved in niche casting. You know, it’s narrow casting, and that’s kind of the world we’re in right now.” – Larry Wilmore ([19:41])

• Advice to a canceled host:
  “Take as much time off as you can. Do what you want to do. I mean, I’m not worried about Stephen. He’s going to be good. And it’ll be exciting to see what he does next.” – Larry Wilmore ([26:07])

---

Timeline of Significant Segments

• 00:00 – 02:00: Introduction, Colbert’s final show, Wilmore’s quip about presidential sensitivities
• 02:05 – 04:17: Industry decline, network economics, and politics with Lucas Shaw
• 04:54 – 07:19: Effects on other late-night hosts; Kimmel’s controversy and survival
• 07:36 – 11:46: Format shifts to viral games; CBS leasing to Byron Allen; Allen’s background
• 11:46 – 14:04: Analysis of what’s lost with late night; rise of podcasts and online content
• 17:36 – 26:30: Wilmore interview—late night’s lifespan, representation, the shift to niche, cultural change, advice for Colbert

---

Deeper Reflections

The End of Monoculture

• Hosts and guests mourn the symbolic end of late-night’s unifying power, but recognize viewers have flocked to digital niche communities.

Representation and Missed Opportunities

• The episode touches on the persistent sameness of late-night hosts (mostly white men in suits), but Wilmore argues that audience preferences and industry gatekeeping share the blame for lack of diversity ([21:57]).

Future of Late Night Comedy

• With networks unlikely to back big-budget comedy experiments, the consensus is that innovative, diverse, and niche comedy finds its home online—not in the 11:30 slot.

---

Conclusion

Late Night's Long Goodbye is both a eulogy and an industry autopsy. It blends candid industry reporting with cultural critique, offering listeners historical context and forward-looking commentary. The late-night talk show won’t disappear, but its old form—and the central role it played in American pop culture—likely will. The future, the episode concludes, belongs to more personalized, digital, and authentic forms of comedy and conversation.

Transcript

[Sean Ramesh]

Tonight, like Steve Allen, Ed Sullivan, Johnny Carson, Joan Rivers, Jay Leno, David Letterman, Arsenio Hall, Whoopi Goldberg, Dennis Miller, Conor o', Brien, Craig Kilborn, Craig Ferguson, Keenan Ivory Waynes, Wanda Sykes, Carson Daly, Chelsea Handler, George Lopez, James Corden, Larry Wilmore, Samantha Bee, Trevor Noah, Amber Ruffin and many more before him. Stephen Colbert will say goodbye to late night television. He's going out with a little help from his friends. Amy Sedaris, Billy Crystal, Weird Al, Mark Hamill, Tiffany Haddish, Jeff Daniels, Martha Stewart, Ben Stiller, Josh Brolin, James Taylor, Aubrey Plaza and Robert De Niro. And that was just last night. None of them spoke about the highly unusual circumstances in which Stephen's leaving cbs. But last night's musical guest took a swing at it.

[Larry Wilmore]

I'm here in support tonight for Stephen

[Sean Ramesh]

because you're the first guy in America

[Larry Wilmore]

who's lost his show because we got

[Sean Ramesh]

a president who can't take a joke. We're going to say goodbye to Stephen and late night TV on Today explained from Vox. Anyway, Stephen, he's a small minded people. He got no idea what the freedoms of this beautiful country are supposed to to be about. This is for you.

[Sponsor Voice]

Support for Today explained comes from ServiceNow. AI is moving fast, but without visibility, it's just chaos. Different tools, different models, different teams using AI in completely different ways. A mess. Service now turns that mess into control. With the AI control tower. You see all your AI across the business in one place. Oh, what it's doing, what it's done, what it's about to do. So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people. Visit service servicenow.com so good, so good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60 off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame and Free People. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at

[Larry Wilmore]

your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck.

[Sean Ramesh]

It's TODAY Explained.

[Larry Wilmore]

And now your host, Sean Ramis.

[Sean Ramesh]

FR. Wow. Thanks Hadi. Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg News is here to remind us what happened to Stephen

[Lucas Shaw]

Colbert is the highest rated on television of the late night shows. But when he debuted that show I think got 8 million viewers. It's now averages more like 2. And the amount of money advertising dollars pumping into late night has dropped by more than 50%. So it's just, it's a, it's the declining part of the business.

[Sean Ramesh]

So it wasn't Colbert's fault necessarily. It was more just sign of the times kind of situation, I'd say both.

[Lucas Shaw]

So broadcast networks have been looking for ways to cut costs, right? You know, they, they shows from streaming. CBS has shown Yellowstone brand isn't something

[Sean Ramesh]

you earn, something you live up to.

[Lucas Shaw]

NBC is putting on traders.

[Sean Ramesh]

Are you faithful or a traitor?

[Lucas Shaw]

And especially as these networks spend more money on sports every year, they're having to pull back on things like entertainment.

[Larry Wilmore]

UFC has struck a deal with Paramount. Paramount is paying some big bucks here, an average of $1.1 billion a year.

[Lucas Shaw]

It has come out now that the

[Sean Ramesh]

NFL has signed an 11 year, 110 billion dollar media rights deal.

[Lucas Shaw]

But I would say that Colbert, as successful as he's been on linear television, which is where a lot of the money is made, he's also sort of the least web forward of the late night shows. So he has the smallest footprint online of any of the hosts.

[Sean Ramesh]

And then there's the White House shaped elephant in the room.

[Lucas Shaw]

Trump has called on the companies to basically fire all the late night hosts. The timing certainly didn't look good for Paramount, you know, you know, CBS announced it was killing the show. While Paramount was in the middle of negotiating or finalizing its merger with Skydance. The FCC had been dragging its feet to approve that deal. Trump was suing CBS. Over the editing of the 60 Minutes interview, Trump said that those facts were unrelated. Nobody really believed them. You know, the Ellison family super tight with Trump. So there's been this perception that Donald Trump and politics had a big role in the firing of Stephen Colbert.

[Sean Ramesh]

Have we found a smoking gun or anything of the sort that suggests that this was just a hit job?

[Lucas Shaw]

No. And that's part of the problem with the political argument, is that we haven't seen anyone make a direct tie. Now, that being said, it's always or often very hard to find that smoking gun. With President Trump. One of the things he's really good at is sort of acting a little bit like a mob boss where there's always one level of deniability so that he can say out loud what he wants to happen. But there's not gonna be like that email that people unearth that lays it bare. So no, we have not seen any smoking gun. Okay.

[Sean Ramesh]

And since the cancellation of Colbert in July of 2025, which is being realized this week in May of 2026, have we seen any indication that this is gonna be a trend? That Seth Meyers is shaking in his shorts, that Kimmel, who's under threat again from this administration, is ready to throw in the towel and give up the fight.

[Lucas Shaw]

We haven't seen any indication that any of those hosts are getting canceled. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them lost their jobs in the next couple of years. Right? So Kimmel, who got in a lot of trouble with Trump and FCC chair Brendan Carr and some of the local station groups that own the stations that carry the ABC feed and carry Kimmel,

[Larry Wilmore]

two of the largest station ownership groups,

[Lucas Shaw]

that's Sinclair and nexstar, say they won't carry the program on their ABC affiliates. NationW.

[Sean Ramesh]

It follows his on air comments related to the killing of Charlie Kirk.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think Jimmy Kimmel's terrible.

[Sean Ramesh]

You know what suspended him?

[Larry Wilmore]

His talent.

[Lucas Shaw]

They tried to take him off the air last fall and it ended up backfiring.

[Sean Ramesh]

Jimmy Kimmel received a standing ovation after returning to ABC last night.

[Larry Wilmore]

Last night's show was a ratings bonanza. 6 million live TV viewers online clips of this monologue are going viral.

[Lucas Shaw]

Our freedom to speak is what they admire most about this country. And that's something I'm embarrassed to say. I took for granted until they pulled my friend Stephen off the air and tried to coerce the affiliates to take my show off the air. That's not legal. That's not American. That is un American. And it is so. When Trump tried to come after him again because of a recent joke, it just didn't go anywhere. Now Kimmel re upped his deal for one year. His contract is up next year. I would not be surprised if this were the end. I don't think Kimmel wants to go. I think he's probably now reached a point where he would like to stay until Trump is gone so that he can essentially declare victory, have the last word. But if you're Disney and if you're the new CEO Josh tomorrow, do you want your late night show to constantly be causing you problems with the President, especially if it's a show that doesn't really make much money. So I think there's a very interesting Kimmel negotiation to come. Seth Meyers. I assume that show's on borrowed time. I don't have any reporting to say when it's gonna end. My gut tells me that Fallon is the last to go, but that's just a hunch.

[Sean Ramesh]

We'll all be dead and gone and Jimmy Fallon will still be there looking like he's 35. Throw into Questlove Playing Games we are about to play Box of Lies True Confessions Lip Sync Battles, the Whisper challenge, a water war.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, that's. But the games are. The thing, right, is that Late Night BEC became all about formats. It became about how can you get something that's going to go viral on YouTube, on Instagram, online, that people are going to share with their friends. Because the number of people who are actually watching the shows live kept going down and down and down. I mean, I think the hosts have been pretty open about the fact that a lot of what they do now is just geared towards virality online, which is great for the customer. Not so good for the networks because you make a lot less money from a YouTube clip than you do from a 30 second spot on CBS, which

[Sean Ramesh]

I think is the justification on some level for what the network is replacing Colbert with. Can you help people understand what they might see if they turn on the TV at 11:30 on CBS?

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, how familiar are you with the name Byron Allen?

[Sean Ramesh]

Every time it comes up, I have to look him up to figure out who he is again, because not really, but he's a very powerful rich man.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, he's got one of the more unusual careers CVs you'll find in media. He was a standup comedian out of. Never really an A lister, but you know, a comedian that people knew throughout the 80s and 90s.

[Larry Wilmore]

I'm glad you're in a real good mood tonight because we have a young

[Sean Ramesh]

comedian who's making his first appearance on national television.

[Larry Wilmore]

Make him feel welcome, would you?

[Sean Ramesh]

Byron Allen. I guess I'll tell you a little about myself.

[Larry Wilmore]

First. Just turned 19, had to register for the draft. How many people had to register for the draft, Jack? All right, I'm not worried about it though because the post office is handling the paperwork.

[Lucas Shaw]

Then he decided he wanted to kind of use his money to become a media mogul and all like respect to him. He looked around and was like, there are not a lot of black media moguls out there. Like I should take that spot.

[Larry Wilmore]

I'm just always on the hunt.

[Sean Ramesh]

When is enough enough? I guess in terms of buying, when

[Larry Wilmore]

we're the biggest company in the world and there's no close second.

[Sean Ramesh]

Yeah, that's it. That's the goal.

[Larry Wilmore]

That's the goal.

[Lucas Shaw]

And so he's mostly cobbled together sort of second and third rate media assets. The biggest deal he's done today was for the Weather Channel.

[Sean Ramesh]

Alan seemingly came out of Nowhere back in 20 with an all cash offer for the Weather channel. He paid $310 million, making him the first black American to own a 24 hour mainstream cable news network. Okay. What's he gonna do with this time slot that Colbert is unwillingly donating?

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, first of all, it's important to note that he is actually buying the time slot. He's essentially paying CBS to put his show on the air.

[Larry Wilmore]

Huh.

[Lucas Shaw]

So the spot that used to be James Corden, which was the Late Late show, or I think that's what it's called, he put in a show called Comics Unleashed, which is a comedy show.

[Sean Ramesh]

It's a comedic institution. It's a roundtable of comics on couches and they, you know, you pitch your jokes and you get to run your bits. Like I was thinking the other day that I want to start my own emergency rescue service called Rescue 9 1. And our motto would be, you really can't help but call us first.

[Lucas Shaw]

That now moves up to 1135 and another Byron Allen show called Funny youy

[Sean Ramesh]

should Ask the show where every question

[Lucas Shaw]

has a funny answer slots into that James Corden's Law.

[Sean Ramesh]

Wow. So Byron Allen just owns what, two hours of late night on CBS now?

[Lucas Shaw]

Late night and late late night. And he's paying tens of millions of dollars for the rights and he's betting that he can make enough money from the advertising sales that it'll be worth it.

[Sean Ramesh]

I mean, what does it tell us that CBS is leasing this once illustrious time to I guess, kind of like

[Lucas Shaw]

a freelancer essentially that late night comedy is a dying act and that these broadcast networks are in somewhat precarious financial situations. Right. And CBS executives I think said anonymously that they were losing like $40 million a year on Colbert. Now some people don't believe that number. Jimmy Kimmel in particular has come out and said he doesn't. But if you can go from losing $40 million a year to potentially making tens of millions of dollars a year from buyer now. And why wouldn't you do that trade?

[Sean Ramesh]

I was gonna ask you what we lose when we no longer have these traditional late night shows. But I feel like all the hosts have been on a sort of publicity tour. I think late night is one of

[Lucas Shaw]

those things that's been around our whole

[Larry Wilmore]

lives and we're kind of.

[Sean Ramesh]

It's just in.

[Lucas Shaw]

It's part of our lives.

[Larry Wilmore]

I never thought it was a job

[Lucas Shaw]

when I was growing up.

[Sean Ramesh]

I just thought Johnny Carson came with the television set. I didn't know.

[Lucas Shaw]

Look at the figures. And the fact of the matter is more people are watching late night television now and people watch us on YouTube now and people have a lot of different options. And yet they still, they keep coming to us. On the one hand, what you see with the loss of late night is the decline of monoculture, right? We used to have, when, when the late night shows started, most people watched cbs, NBC, abc, later Fox. Right? Then cable came in and with the Internet, things just got more and more fragmented. And so much as the, you know, nightly news is no longer the only place people go to get news like what? I think part of what made the late night shows special was it was one of the only places to hear and see from some of the most famous people in the world, right? But that's obviously gone away. And the closest thing to late night we have now, or what sort of replaced it in a lot of ways, is basically podcasts and YouTube, right? There are other comedy podcasts, I don't know. Smart list, Smart Less. Call her Daddy.

[Larry Wilmore]

Daddy Gang. Welcome back.

[Lucas Shaw]

Hot Ones, more of a YouTube show, whatever, that are essentially playing the role that Late Night once did.

[Sean Ramesh]

It's the show with hot questions and even hotter wings. There's been a lot of heartfelt tributes to Colbert over the past few weeks on his show and elsewhere. How long do you think people hold up before they just, like, forget he existed and switch over to Kimmel?

[Lucas Shaw]

Not long. Because you see this anytime, like restaurant in your neighborhood closes. If more people cared about Colbert and actually watched his show, he'd still be on the air. It's much easier to express frustration or outrage online or just with friends. But when it comes to how you're spending your time, how you're spending your money, are you doing it with that person?

[Sean Ramesh]

Right?

[Lucas Shaw]

Right. If you love Colbert, why does he have a third of the audience on YouTube that Fallon has?

[Sean Ramesh]

Lucas Shaw is a managing editor at Bloomberg News and the author of its Screen Time newsletter. Check it out if you want to read more about the intersection of Hollywood and Silicon Valley. Larry Wilmore replaced Stephen when he left Comedy Central way back when. We're going to ask him what he thinks of Steven's departure when we're back on Today Explained. Support for the show today comes from Hims. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back. Him ZD is a common thing, people, more than you realize. And for many, getting treatment may be more straightforward than you think. Hims says you can connect online with a licensed provider to discuss personalized prescription treatment options for Ed, all privately and from the comfort of your home. Unless you're into talking about it in public, which is totally okay too. Guys. Hims offers a range of options, including personalized care and generic medications that can be much more affordable than brand name versions. They say their platform is designed to make expert care easier to access. With treatment plans tailored to your individual needs and goals, you can get simple online access to personalized, affordable care for ed, hair loss, weight loss and more. You can visit hims.comexplained that's hims.comexplained for your free online visit hims.comexplained Prescription required. See website for details and important safety information. Sildenafil is a generic version of Viagra. Viagra is a registered trademark of Beatrice Specialty llc. HIMS is not affiliated with or endorsed by Beatrice. Support for this Show Today Explained is coming from Proton VPN Today. You know how dangerous the Internet can be, but you still want to navigate the digital jungles without worrying about pop up ads and data thieves. You Tarzan you. With ProtonVPN, it's easy to protect yourself from bad actors and annoying advertisements. ProtonVPN is a secure VPN securely designed for people who want to prioritize their digital privacy and security. It keeps what you do online private and lets you access the Internet like it should work open, secure and on your terms. Proton says that unlike most VPNs, they're backed by strong European privacy laws and years of expertise creating a safer, faster and more open Internet for everyone. Sounds nice. It's easy to get started. Right now ProtonVPN is offering our listeners 70% off a two year plan. When you go to ProtonVPN.com explained, that's P-R-O-T-O-N-V-P N.com explained for 70% off your two year plan. That's ProtonVPN.com explained.

[Sponsor Voice]

Support for today explained comes from ServiceNow. ServiceNow says AI was supposed to handle the parts of the job that you hate. Instead it just describes them, suggests what to do about them and then leaves you to do it. What? That's not help, that's homework. ServiceNow's AI specialists are different. They say they're not a tool. Think of them as digital teammates who actually do the work from start to finish. Cases get resolved, requests get processed, loops get closed, and most importantly, they say no extra work for you. Because when you can truly delegate to AI, you can get back to the work only you can do the work. That requires a person with ideas and judgment and, you know, a pulse. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

[Sean Ramesh]

As we as we all understand, you can take a man's show you can't take a man's today explains. So that's the good news. Thank you.

[Larry Wilmore]

Cheers. Cheers.

[Sean Ramesh]

Larry, you worked at the Daily Show. You hosted the Nightly show, which replaced Colbert when he left Comedy Central for his now canceled Late Show. Have a lot of people been asking you how you feel about what's going on with Steven right now?

[Larry Wilmore]

You are the only one, Sean. For me, it's a little different because I look at television very soberly, I guess, Sean. I go, well, you know, a lot of trends come and go on tv. The variety show had an amazing run on television. You know, even the sitcom has changed a little bit. It's come in and out of favor. And this particular late night format, if you think about it, this started in the mid-50s with Steve Allen. That's a long run. That's a really long run to have that particular form stick around for that long, you know, So I think it's probably past its due date, to be honest with you. And that's got nothing to do with the hosts so much as the format.

[Sean Ramesh]

Well, let me ask you about the hosts. You know, one of my favorite things from your show, the Nightly show, was a segment called keep it 100, in which you challenge your guests to be completely honest about something. Can I ask you to keep it 100 about something?

[Larry Wilmore]

I always keep it 100. Are you kidding me?

[Sean Ramesh]

My man. Okay.

[Larry Wilmore]

Talk about keeping it a buck.

[Sean Ramesh]

Yes. Why doesn't Z Way have Seth Slott after Fallon?

[Larry Wilmore]

Z Way's hilarious, by the way.

[Sean Ramesh]

So if we could talk to Kimberly, what can you do better to uplift the black community and black women?

[Lucas Shaw]

Should billionaires exist? And are there any billionaires in particular you pray?

[Sean Ramesh]

Take a merciful trip to the Titanic.

[Lucas Shaw]

How many black friends do you have?

[Sean Ramesh]

Oh, Ziwei's incredible. And she's taking the format to a new place, a place you could argue inspired by what Colbert used to do, maybe on the Colbert Report. And yet she's relegated to a podcast, YouTube kind of space. Why doesn't Lauren give her some love on NBC late night?

[Larry Wilmore]

So Z Way very talented. I've known Zwei for a long time. She was a writer on Robin Thede's show. So I identified her talent very early on. But here's the thing. What Zwe does is niche. The late night shows are broadcasting. You know, Zwei is involved in niche casting. You know, it's narrow casting, and that's kind of the world we're in right now. Her show isn't meant for a broad audience, but I'M with you. I'm a huge fan of Zway. She's hilarious. But I doubt if what she's doing if cbs. Honestly, Sean, think about it. Cbs.

[Sean Ramesh]

Well, that's why I said NBC. I just feel like, I mean, to push back on your assessment that she's too niche, you gotta be a little more of a generalist with broad appeal.

[Larry Wilmore]

I mean, well, her show is very niche.

[Sean Ramesh]

Her show is very niche. And she's being ironic and she's playing a character and all these things. And yeah, I watch it on YouTube and it makes sense. It's like, this is for the people who want this. They can go find her. Exactly right. But I have to say, at the same time time, if they gave her a later slot, like the kind of slot that Byron Allen will now have twice over at cbs, could people not acclimate to her style and thus come around to it? Like, Conan was doing weird things, Letterman was doing weird things.

[Larry Wilmore]

I have to disagree with you, Sean, because here's what you have to ask. It's not the show, it's the audience. Ask anybody in that demographic if they even watched linear tv.

[Sean Ramesh]

Right?

[Larry Wilmore]

They do not. The real question is, you know, where is the proper place for these shows now? You know, and tv, linear tv, doesn't seem like it's one of the places.

[Sean Ramesh]

So it's all online all the time? Oh, yeah.

[Larry Wilmore]

It's all these other delivery systems.

[Sean Ramesh]

You know, I do wonder though, when you see Strike Force 5 reuniting and it's, you know, more or less five different versions of the same white guy, do you see what may have been a missed opportunity? Maybe not to make really niche, weird shows on broadcast, linear television, but at least to just, I don't know, offer an audience something different between all these guys. I mean, yeah, John Oliver's British and like, yeah, Jimmy Kimmel's in la, but there aren't like major. They're all white guys wearing suits.

[Larry Wilmore]

I will say this, this is gonna sound weird, but nobody cares anymore, honestly. You know, the guy who did that at the right time was Arsenio. Right. None of these late night hosts hit the airwaves the way Arsenio did. Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce to you Mr. Bobby Brown.

[Sean Ramesh]

Singing my.

[Larry Wilmore]

Everything about the four young men I'm about to introduce you to two is controversial. From the name to the music. Let's welcome and talk to NWA Give it up. He came at a time when the culture was changing. Remember, hip hop was just finding its voice. He was bringing hip hop artists on tv. Carson didn't do that. Letterman wasn't doing that. No one was doing that, you know, so Arsenio was that host you're talking about. So it's been done already, but the audience really doesn't care. If they cared enough, it would have happened.

[Sean Ramesh]

So you don't see this so much as like a top down executive decision, gatekeeping. You see this as the network give the audience what they want and this is what they want.

[Larry Wilmore]

No, it's both of those things. Yeah, it's not one or the other. It's absolutely both of those things. You know, the gatekeepers feeling that, you know, it has to be this type of person. And the audience going, well, at least the band is black. Thanks, Jimmy Fallon.

[Sean Ramesh]

They're a pretty good band.

[Larry Wilmore]

And I hear what you're saying, Larry. How come there's not more people of color? How come they haven't done these things?

[Sean Ramesh]

Or women?

[Larry Wilmore]

I have lamented my whole career going up against that and just trying all the things, you know, like you said, I even did it myself.

[Sean Ramesh]

You know, what do you think of this shift? Do you think the podcast fully fulfills what we got from late night tv or do you think it leaves something to be desired?

[Larry Wilmore]

I think it's just different. I think people want personalized entertainment a lot more now. You know, kind of the a la carte type of thing. Choose off a menu, you know, more than something that feels presented for everybody to enjoy. That's what I mean about the broad versus the niche. You know, Zvi doesn't have to worry about making sure everybody enjoys this. No, you gotta laugh at the way that I want to do this because that's what you came here for. And I think this current generation really enjoys that. Like that's what they want. And here's what I think it ties into. If we're going to be sociological about this, for me, I think they kind of associated, you know, podcasts or whatever form you want to say with something that feels more authentic. And so that's the word that they want, whereas the other form doesn't feel as authentic to them. They. There's like a barrier between them and the performer, you know, Clearly.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah.

[Sean Ramesh]

I mean, one thing that gets me about this financial argument that this show just doesn't make financial sense anymore is it doesn't seem like Colbert was given an opportunity to, say, make his show much more cheaply. I mean, get rid of the band, get rid of the audience, winnow it down, make it look more like, I don't know, the podcast format where we're bludgeoned over the head with when we turn to social media and. And still have this American icon at this point interviewing some of the most prominent people in our culture. Why not do that and save a ton of money and save a ton of face? Because right now, CBS is just the butt of a lot of jokes.

[Larry Wilmore]

So what you're asking me is why doesn't showbiz operate logically?

[Sean Ramesh]

Yes. Yes, yes.

[Larry Wilmore]

Oh, okay. Well, that's an interesting question, Shine. I never thought to ask them these types of questions. No, showbiz is the opposite of logic. It is the opposite and the antithesis. It has never followed logic, you know, and like when people would ask you questions about racism, said, let me be clear about something. The color Hollywood cares about most is green, period. Look to where the money is, and that's gonna be your answer most of the time.

[Sean Ramesh]

Okay. Any advice for your friend?

[Larry Wilmore]

I.

[Sean Ramesh]

You've had a show canceled. He's had a show canceled. What does one do after a show's canceled?

[Larry Wilmore]

Take as much time off as you can. Do what you want to do. I mean, I'm not worried about Stephen. Yeah, he's going to be good. And it'll be exciting to see what he does next. You know, as a fan and a friend, I'm looking forward to him.

[Sean Ramesh]

Larry Wilmore, ladies and gentlemen, once again,

[Larry Wilmore]

Sean Ramastrom is your host.

[Sean Ramesh]

Hadi Muwati produced, Jenny Lawton edited, David Tadashore and Bridger Dunnigan mixed and keeping truthiness alive thanks to Gabriel Dunatav. This is Today Explained. Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Turn the temperature down with blinds.com and get up to 50% off custom window treatments like solar roller shades and more during the Memorial Day Mega sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got you free samples, real design experts and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. Shop up to 50% off site wide and huge savings on door busters. Right now during the Memorial Day mega [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply.