Podcast Guest with Depression (2:27)

It was a little difficult at first to differentiate because I have clinical depression and generalized anxiety disorder. So my moods were a little bit low just compared to the next person. I've noticed more than other times of the year of real lack of motivation to do things, even indoor things. But that made me really notice a difference and look into whether or not I was being affected by seasonal affective disorder.

Jonathan Hill (3:01)

I'm Jacqueline Hill and this week on Explain It To Me from vox, why winter Makes us sad and what we can do about it. To start, I called up Kelly Rowan at the University of Vermont.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (3:13)

It was negative 6 degrees when I woke up this morning. And we have snow from the monster storm that has not melted. We got probably 18 inches that's still on the ground.

Jonathan Hill (3:22)

Kelly studies the winter blues and and when it crosses the line into seasonal affective disorder.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (3:28)

So seasonal affective disorder is on a continuum where most people at a high latitude are gonna have some symptoms. It's just a question of how many and how bad, how interfering are the symptoms. Seasonal affective disorder is the extreme end where it's clinical depression. In certain seasons, folks who have the winter blues have some of the symptoms, but not a clinical depression tied to the seasons. And then there's the rest of us at a high latitude that have a few symptoms, like maybe we're a little bit more fatigued, our appetite changes, with a preference towards carbohydrate rich foods. We're moving a little bit slower, maybe socializing a little bit less, but not having significant symptoms that interfere with our life. The reason most of us can confer around the water cooler at work and talk about seasonal affective disorder is as something we can relate to. People have some symptoms, it's just a question of how many and how bad.

Jonathan Hill (4:30)

What's happening in our brains when the days get shorter?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (4:35)

So when the days are shorter, specifically when the sun is rising later in the winter months, our circadian clock is affected by that, by the long nights that we have in the wintertime.

Narrator/Poet Reader (4:49)

Late lies the wintry sun. Abed, a frosty, fiery, sleepy head blinks but an hour or two and then a blood red orange sets again.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (5:00)

The circadian clock is the part of our brain that regulates our daily rhythms and things like alertness and our sleep rhythms, so that when we have a longer night, the circadian clock gets kind of out of sync with the light dark cycle and can make us feel kind of sloggy, especially in the morning when the alarm is going off and it's hard to get out of bed.

Narrator/Poet Reader (5:26)

Before the stars have left the skies. At morning in the dark, I rise, and shivering in my nakedness by the cold candle, bathe and dress. Robert Louis Stevenson, winter time.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (5:41)

It's because the brain is saying, wait a minute, it's still dark out. It's still time to be asleep. What is this? You want me to get up and get going now? It's a bit confused. This time of temperature does play a smaller contribution. People who have seasonal depression feel more depressed on cold days. But really what's carrying the day overall is day length is the strongest thing in the environment that predicts when the symptoms begin in any given year and how bad they are on any particular day.

Jonathan Hill (6:15)

Do we know why some people have seasonal affective disorder and some people don't? I mean, is there a reason why some people's body bodies are just so much more sensitive to this change than others?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (6:28)

Women seem to be more affected than men, and this is true of depression in general. There's a two to one gender difference in depression. Two depressed women for every depressed man. That seems to be the case in seasonal depression as well. Living at a high latitude where on the winter solstice the days are even shorter. Like here where I live, Burlington, Vermont, on the winter solstice, we have just over eight hours of daylight to work with. So people living here at my latitude are more likely to be affected than folks who are living in southern Florida, for example, having a family history of depression, not necessarily seasonal depression, but depression runs in families. We don't know exactly what is inherited, but there is assumed to be some genetic component that confers increased risk for depression.

Jonathan Hill (7:21)

Is there a particular point in winter when these feelings hit? Like the days are getting longer, but I am feeling like, can winter please be over? Please, please, please now?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (7:33)

Yeah. The research on that shows that for people that really have seasonal affective disorder, the clinical depression in the winter months that January and February are the months that are the worst in terms of the depression symptoms at their peak. Now, they start much earlier than that. Very commonly around the time change when we move our clocks back in the fall is a big trigger for a lot of people. That begins the cascade of the symptoms. But they tend to be at their peak. January, February, even though you're right, the winter Solstice happens on December 21st. A lot of people are able to make it through December because of the holidays are somewhat invigorating for people. All the social activities feeling like they can kind of make it through then. But then after the new year, what's left? We've got, you know, a good three months of winter left to deal with. That's where it really tends to hit, folks. One of the distinctions between seasonal affective disorder and the winter blues, or maybe just a few mild symptoms, is the duration. Generally, the symptoms begin in the fall and they persist through January, February and into March, maybe even April. So again, on average, the episodes last for five months of the year every year. Rinse and repeat, do it again year after year. So it's a lot of time to be struggling with serious symptoms of depression.

Jonathan Hill (9:14)

Five months really is a long time to struggle, but there are things you can do to help bring back the sun. That's up next.

Host of Net Worth and Chill (9:33)

This week on Net Worth and Chill. I'm talking about what happens after you've mastered the basics. How to build wealth that actually lasts for generations. With the top 1% holding nearly a third of the nation's wealth and 98% of them being men, breaking into generational wealth isn't just about getting rich. It's about changing who gets to stay rich. Plus, I'm explaining the great wealth transfer $124 trillion about to change hands over the next 25 years, and what it means for you. I'm answering your questions about calculating your net worth, whether you should rent or to build wealth, and how to pass your retirement accounts to your kids without losing them to probate court. Whether you're just getting started or already maxing out your 401k, this episode will show you how to think bigger than just making money today. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF.

Host of The Vergecast (10:22)

Over the last several years, AI companies of all shapes and sizes have been desperately trying to get their hands on every bit of available data to make their models better. This week on the Vergecast, we have the story of how Anthropic destroyed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of books and fed them all to Claude. Plus, we have information on who in tech is in the Epstein files, what's going on with Netflix, whether it's woke, whether it's going to buy Warner Brothers, and whether Peloton is going to successfully sell you a treadmill ever again. All that on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts.

Jonathan Hill (11:01)

We're back with Explain it to me. I'm J.Q. and I'm talking with Dr. Kelly Rowan, a professor of psychological science at the University of Vermont. And she says that while we can't change the seasons, there are things we can do.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (11:13)

There are three treatments for seasonal depression that are effective. They include light therapy, antidepressant medications, and cognitive behavioral talk therapy.

Jonathan Hill (11:27)

Let's start with light therapy. What is that? How does that work? What does it do?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (11:32)

Light therapy is timed daily exposure to bright artificial light. Most commonly, we're using 10,000 lux of full spectrum or cool white fluorescent. Light lux is a measure of light intensity. 10,000 lux is the same intensity that comes from the sky at sunrise on a bright, clear day. And we do light therapy first thing in the morning upon waking to try to Simulate an early dawn and hopefully jumpstart that sluggish circadian clock back into a more normal phase, functioning more like it is in the summertime for the individual. We do light therapy under supervision. I always say even though you can walk into Costco and walk out with a happy light, doesn't mean that you should. That light therapy is a medical device. It can have some side effects, usually mild things like eye strain, headaches, feeling a little bit wired up. However, it can have some more serious side effects. Things like an increase in thoughts about suicide, the possibility of a dangerously elevated mood state called mania or hypomania. So these are among the reasons why it's important to do light therapy, at least when getting started, under the supervision of a mental health provider who can watch out for those side effects, help you address them, and also get the dose just right. Because light therapy is not a one size fits all. There's no generic prescription. Right.

Jonathan Hill (13:14)

You mentioned how antidepressant medications can help. Just like when you're treating depression year round. There's also cognitive behavioral talk therapy, which you've actually adapted specifically for seasonal affective disorder. Tell me about that.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (13:30)

If we break down the term cognitive behavioral therapy, we have cognitive, so we focus on thought patterns and cbt. We actually have people write them down, record their thoughts when they're feeling sad, and then they bring those data into session. And we ask a lot of questions like, what's the evidence for that thought? Is there any other way to see it, to try to gently reframe some of those negative thoughts so that they're not wreaking as much havoc on mood? And in seasonal affective disorder, we see a lot of negative thoughts like, I hate winter.

Narrator/Poet Reader (14:05)

Winter is awful.

Jonathan Hill (14:06)

I can't function at all during the winter months.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (14:09)

And we can work on those kinds of thoughts using CBT as well. And then of course, there's the B, the behavior and cognitive behavioral therapy. In winter depression, we see a lot of kind of passive behavior, people ruminating a lot, spending a lot of time on the couch, passively watching television. So instead of doing that, which we know only feeds the depression, we try to get people to identify things that they can do in the winter that will bring a sense of joy and doing some of those things instead of going into what I call hibernation mode. Seeing people is a big part of the behavioral side of cbt. Getting people engaged with their social networks so that they're seeing people and their social activities look more like they do in the summertime than going into this passive hibernation like state that we know only makes the depression worse.

Jonathan Hill (15:11)

Okay, so another thing I hear about is the benefits of vitamin D supplements, especially if you live in a place that's less than sunny. A listener called us about that.

J (15:20)

I've lived in Oregon now, transplant from California, for about eight years. And even still, I continue to take my vitamin D. I went to the doctor a couple weeks ago and got blood work, and they said, yep, your vitamin D is low. Make sure to continue to take that.

Jonathan Hill (15:40)

Is that something that can help everyone?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (15:41)

It would be wonderful if it were that easy. Here's the problem with the vitamin D explanation. If we drew an imaginary line across the United States from Boston on the east coast all the way to Northern California on the west coast, everyone above that line probably is vitamin D deficient in the wintertime. The reason we don't think that vitamin D is causally related to seasonal affective disorder is because everybody north of Boston should have seasonal affective disorder in the wintertime if it were really about a vitamin D deficiency. So my advice would be, if it's something you're concerned about, get tested and use the supplementation if your doctor recommends that. But I would not expect seasonal affective disorder to be fully reversed by that.

Jonathan Hill (16:34)

Is there anything people can do, like in, say, September or October to get ahead of all of this? Like, what can we do throughout the year to prepare our bodies for this time?

Dr. Kelly Rowan (16:46)

Yeah, I think for anybody who struggles with the winter, whether it's somebody with seasonal affective disorder or somebody with the winter blues or a few symptoms, there are some things you can do. Do what you would usually do if it was go to the gym and see people do that. Don't get stuck in the pattern of going home, getting under a blanket on the couch just because it's dark out. That's the first step down the slippery slope to falling into a depression or experiencing a lot of symptoms. So I would encourage people to stay in their routines. Stay active with your groups, keep your social contacts going, schedule activities and do them with your social networks, and then watch out for those negative thoughts. Look for your natural antidepressants and try to use those as much as you can to fight at this time of year.

Jonathan Hill (17:48)

Up next, what if the key to beating the winter blues is to embrace them? I'm JQ this is Explain it to Me. And this is Carrie Lebowitz.

Megan Rapinoe (18:11)

I am now a winter person, although I would say that I'm a reformed winter hater.

Jonathan Hill (18:17)

Carrie is a health psychologist and the author of how to winter harness your mindset to thrive on cold, dark, or difficult days.

Megan Rapinoe (18:25)

So during undergrad, I became really interested in the science of well being and studying human flourishing and how we can help people thrive. And I learned about the work of this professor, Jor Vitor, so, who just happens to be this world expert on human happiness, who lives and teaches at the northernmost university in the world, the University of Tromso in Northern Norway. And then I sort of started thinking about, isn't it kind of funny or weird or surprising that this professor, who is a world expert on happiness, lives in a place that is so far north that the sun doesn't rise for two months each winter?

Jonathan Hill (19:05)

Whoa. Okay. No direct sunlight for two months. That is a lot. What did you learn?

Megan Rapinoe (19:12)

So in the end, I ended up moving to northern Norway for a year to do this research. And so Yor and I conducted a research study on what we call wintertime mindset. So what people think about when they think about the winter and what we found is that people in Tromso relate to winter differently. So they're really not focused on the downsides of winter, the unpleasantries of winter, the discomforts of winter. Broadly speaking, they're oriented to the season's opportunities. So the darkness and the cold is seen as a time of year to be cozy, to slow down, to rest. The winter light is really seen as special and magical and beautiful, which the winter light there is very special and unique, but really they tend to orient towards the things that they like about the season instead of just sort of seeing it as a time of year to endure.

Jonathan Hill (20:07)

Yeah. You know, I've seen pictures of that time of year in Norway, and even though the sun doesn't rise, it's like this gorgeous, like blue light. What was it like to experience that?

Megan Rapinoe (20:19)

It is so magical. So the polar night, right, is this time of year where the sun doesn't rise directly above the horizon. And when you hear that the sun doesn't rise for two months, maybe like me, you're picturing total pitch blackness. But that's not what they get in Tromso. So first of all, they get a few hours of what's known as civil twilight each day. So this is the same as that time right before the sun rises or just after it sets, when the sun is still below the horizon. And so you have the sky that's pink and purple and deeply blue and yellow. You're getting these magnificent sunrise and sunset colors. But instead of getting them for 15 or 20 or 30 minutes, like we do in most places on Earth, you can get them for two or three or four hours as the sun is skirting below the horizon for a couple of hours each winter day. And then before and after that period, you have the blue hours. You look outside and it's somewhere between like a navy, a royal or a pale blue, depending on what time of day. And it's really like something I have not experienced anywhere else on Earth. And I think that people in Tromso really revel in and appreciate this extra special light that they get during the darkest days of the year. Winter in Tromso is uniquely magical, right? So you usually have a lot of snow, so you can ski and snowshoe and snowmobile. It's one of the best places in the world to see the northern lights. So you have the aurora borealis often dancing in the sky. The winter is the time of year that the whales come to the nearby fjords to feed. So you have whales. So there's all these things that you know. It's giving Disney's Frozen, right? It's giving. It's giving Anna and Elsa, right? It's extremely magical. But that said, it still is a nighttime level of darkness for about 18 hours a day, right? It still is cold and blustery and wet and snowy. And so I think that the magic helps people there tap into the possibilities of winter. And I think this adapting to the winter really helps people enjoy it.

Jonathan Hill (22:44)

Yeah, it's like you can't just stay inside for that long of a time. You have to keep living. Why is getting out, even in bad weather, so important?

Megan Rapinoe (22:56)

It's important for a number of reasons. So first of all, we know that fresh air, connection with nature and movement are all natural antidepressants. So if it's a time of year that you feel down, that you have the winter blues, we know that getting outside moving, connecting with nature, even if it's just a little bit, is going to give you that mood boost. The other thing that I think is so important is that the more you stay inside in winter, the more it gets built up in your head as something you can't do, right? That you can't get outside or you can't enjoy yourself outside, or it's too hard or too difficult to go places and do things, and that's going to limit you from doing anything, right? So winter is a great time of year for indoor activities. But even if what you want to do is go to the movies, go to museums, go take a dance class or a painting class or a language Class, meet up with friends, go to the gym. All of those things require you to leave your house and brave the elements in some way, shape or form.

Jonathan Hill (24:07)

Yeah, I think here in the US we tend to isolate more during the winter, but in a lot of cold weather cultures, winter is like the peak social season. What do you make of that cultural difference? I mean, you've lived in both kinds of environments.

Megan Rapinoe (24:23)

You know, I think that there is a number of different cultural factors. Right. If you've lived in a place that has historically been cold for, you know, thousands of years, that culture might be passed down. Right. It would literally be life or death if you didn't bring your neighbors close, if you didn't have people that you could rely on in the cold, dark, snowy months. That might be the difference between you surviving the winter and not. And so I think that that culture gets passed down even in our modern times. I also think that so much of the culture in the U.S. in most places, wants us to be the same year round. Right. The expectations are that you should be equally productive and energetic and efficient, no matter the season, no matter what's going on outside, no matter what's going on in the world, and that it's almost like a willpower failure if you're not. And so I think people are spending so much energy fighting the season that then they feel like they have nothing left to give, and so they just draw inwards and sort of are hibernating, not in an indulgent, intentional way, but in sort of this, like, depressive, reclusive, isolating way.

Jonathan Hill (25:45)

Yeah. You know, I think we do have this culture of, like, going and going and going and going. So maybe it's this idea of the seasons are telling us to chill. Like, are we fighting this natural need for us to rest?

Megan Rapinoe (26:01)

I think so. I mean, if you look at every other living thing on earth, plant or animal, and they all change their behavior in the winter. Every animal slows down in the winter one way or another. And so I think it's very natural to feel more tired in the winter, to feel that call to slow down. But we have deluded ourselves into thinking that we can and should be growing and producing more and more without breaks year round. And I think that there is a lot to be gained from instead embracing personal or natural seasons for fallowness and rest and downtime and rejuvenation and recovery.

Jonathan Hill (26:50)

If someone wanted to adopt a more Nordic way of thinking about, you know, the seasons, what's a small ritual that they can borrow to start finding that beauty in the dark right now, big light off.

Megan Rapinoe (27:04)

So I live by big light off. So no overhead lights, just small lights, preferably candles, but also lamps. And this is something you'll see throughout the Nordics, right? If you go to some of the darkest places on earth, in Copenhagen, in Reykjavik, in Iceland, in the darkest times of year, you will not see homes that are brightly lit with every light on inside the house. Instead, you will see homes that are lit with soft glowing candles and lamps. And you know, it's kind of cliche winter advice, right? So if you want to enjoy winter more, light a candle and then all your problems will go away. You'll be happy. Like just light a candle. And obviously that's not exactly right, but there is something to intentionally embracing the darkness that transforms something that feels like a burden into this opportunity for this cozy, moody, peaceful, restful lighting that will allow you to have a cozy evening, will help you sleep better, and will help you enjoy and embrace the winter.

Dr. Kelly Rowan (28:24)

Foreign.

Jonathan Hill (28:29)

That's it for this week. We have a show coming up about credit cards. How have they helped you? Has the debt held you back? Messed with your relationships? Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545 or email askvoxox.com and if you're a regular listener of this podcast, you can help us by becoming a VOX member. Members get a ton of cool perks like listening to this episode ad free. Go to Vox.com members to learn more. This episode was produced by Hadi Miwagdi and Avishai Artsy. Avishai also helped edit the show alongside Ginny Lawton, fact checking by Melissa Hirsch and engineering by David Tadashore. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. I'm your host, Jonathan Hill. Thank you so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.