Living on Mars

Summary

Today, Explained: Living on Mars Host: Sean Robins & Noel King
Guest: Adam Becker
Release Date: August 15, 2025
Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

---

Introduction

In the "Living on Mars" episode of Today, Explained, hosts Sean Robins and Noel King delve into the ambitious and contentious topic of human settlement on Mars. Featuring insights from biologist Kelly Wienersmith and journalist-astrophysicist Adam Becker, the discussion navigates the scientific, economic, psychological, and political dimensions of establishing a human presence on the Red Planet.

---

Public Perspectives on Mars Colonization

Street Interviews: The episode opens with Sean Robins interviewing passersby outside the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C., about their willingness to live on Mars.

• Kelly Wienersmith (Biologist): “No, I wouldn't want to live on Mars. No. I just think simply, it's just too dangerous.” [00:08]

• Adam Becker (Journalist & Astrophysicist): “No, I would miss my family.” [00:27]

These initial responses highlight common concerns regarding the risks and personal sacrifices associated with extraterrestrial life.

---

The Visionaries: Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos

Kelly Wienersmith: Discusses the differing visions of tech magnates Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos for Mars and space colonization.

• Elon Musk's Vision: Aims for a self-sustaining settlement on Mars as a backup for humanity. Musk has projected timelines as ambitious as sending humans to Mars by 2029.

  • Wienersmith: “Elon Musk wants a self-sustaining settlement… a backup for humanity.” [02:24]

• Jeff Bezos's Vision: Focuses on relocating heavy industry to space and expanding the human population beyond Earth to prevent resource depletion.

  • Wienersmith: “Jeff Bezos wants us to move heavy industry to space to save Earth and move population from Earth to space.” [02:40]

Adam Becker's Critique: Becker is critical of the feasibility and motivations behind these billionaire-led initiatives.

• Becker: “Mars is a horrible idea. Mars is a terrible place.” [15:27]

He challenges the practicality of sustaining life on Mars and questions the billionaire entrepreneurs' assumptions and timelines.

---

Challenges of Living on Mars

Physical Risks:

• Journey Duration: Current technology dictates a 6-9 month trip to Mars.
• Space Radiation Exposure: Limited shielding increases the risk of radiation-related health issues.
  • Wienersmith: “During this trip, you're going to be exposed to space radiation… it could be not just a dangerous trip, but also a trip where your body is sort of breaking down.” [04:29]

Habitat Conditions:

• Living Underground: Due to high radiation and thin atmosphere, settlers would reside in subterranean bunkers.
• Atmospheric Composition: Mars has only 1% of Earth's atmosphere, making surface exposure lethal.
  • Wienersmith: “You can't step outside… the nitrogen would bubble out of your blood and kill you.” [05:05]

Sustainability:

• Subsistence Farming & Recycling: Ensuring a sustainable food and resource supply is paramount but challenging.
  • Wienersmith: “A lot of the day is going to be spent on things like subsistence farming… and probably a lot of exercise.” [05:05]

---

Psychological Impacts

Isolation and Mental Health:

• Communication Delays: With delays ranging from 3 to 22 minutes, real-time support from Earth is impossible.

  • Wienersmith: “All of your support needs to be self-contained… you'll want to bring Netflix if you can.” [07:10]

• Psychological Support: The necessity of including psychological services within the settlement to address isolation and mental well-being.

---

Terraforming Mars: Feasibility and Ethics

Potential Methods:

• Fast Approach: Proposes deploying thermonuclear weapons on the poles to release trapped water vapor, gradually warming the planet.

  • Wienersmith: “Most of the proposals involve dropping nuclear weapons on the poles… it could take decades, maybe hundreds of years.” [08:07]

• Slow Approach: Gradual modification of the Martian environment through sustainable technologies.

Ethical and Legal Concerns:

• International Consensus: Terraforming efforts would require global agreement, which is currently lacking.

  • Wienersmith: “Space belongs to all of humanity. You should probably get the whole international community to give that activity the thumbs up.” [08:38]

• Potential for Conflict: Without clear international laws, competition over Martian territory could escalate into conflict.

  • Becker: “It looks like this new space race is going to be between the United States and China.” [09:17]

---

International Law and Governance in Space

Current Legal Framework:

• No Sovereignty Claims: Nations or corporations cannot claim sovereignty over celestial bodies.
  • Wienersmith: “You can't claim sovereignty over anything in space.” [09:42]

Governance Challenges:

• Jurisdiction Issues: The country or corporation that establishes a presence governs their settlers, potentially leading to geopolitical tensions.
  • Wienersmith: “If Elon Musk, through SpaceX, sends a bunch of United States citizens… the United States would be in charge.” [09:17]

---

Contrasting Visions for Space Futures

Adam Becker's Perspective: Becker argues for focusing on Earth's sustainability rather than escaping to a hostile Mars.

• Sustainability on Earth: Advocates for better resource management and sustainable living on our home planet.

  • Becker: “We have to save ourselves… everything about Earth is so well suited for us.” [24:09]

• Critique of Billionaire Agendas: Views Musk and Bezos's plans as self-serving rather than altruistic.

  • Becker: “If we find a planet around another star… We're not going. It’s not happening.” [24:09]

Kelly Wienersmith's Counterpoint: While acknowledging the challenges, Wienersmith sees Mars as a unique opportunity due to its resources and day-night cycle.

• Resource Availability: Mars possesses essential elements like oxygen, carbon, and water, albeit in challenging forms.

  • Wienersmith: “Mars has a day and night cycle that's pretty close to Earth… it has a lot of the building blocks that we're going to need to live.” [06:19]

• Strategic Importance: Establishing a presence on Mars could serve as a contingency for humanity’s long-term survival.

  • Wienersmith: “We need a backup for humanity.” [02:24]

---

Science Fiction and Reality

Inspiration vs. Reality: The discussion touches on how science fiction shapes and contrasts with real-world space initiatives.

• Adam Becker: Emphasizes that while science fiction inspires, it does not offer practical blueprints.

  • Becker: “Science fiction is not a guide to the future… we tell those stories not to predict the future but to explore questions about being human.” [19:17]

• Ursula Le Guin’s Insight: Highlights that science fiction explores human narratives rather than technological inevitabilities.

  • Becker: Quoting Ursula Le Guin, “science fiction is not a guide to the future and that science fiction authors are not good guides to the future.” [19:27]

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a nuanced debate on whether humanity should pursue Mars colonization amidst existing challenges and differing visions. While Kelly Wienersmith underscores the potential resources and strategic benefits of Mars, Adam Becker cautions against the impracticality and ethical dilemmas posed by billionaire-led colonization efforts. The conversation ultimately raises critical questions about humanity’s future—whether it lies in boldly expanding into space or in diligently preserving and improving our home planet.

---

Notable Quotes

1. Kelly Wienersmith: “No, I wouldn't want to live on Mars. No. I just think simply, it's just too dangerous.” [00:08]
2. Adam Becker: “Mars is a horrible idea. Mars is a terrible place.” [15:27]
3. Kelly Wienersmith: “You can't step outside… the nitrogen would bubble out of your blood and kill you.” [05:05]
4. Adam Becker: “We have to save ourselves… Everything about this biosphere… It is everything about this biosphere.” [24:09]

---

Further Listening

For more insights into the challenges and opportunities of space colonization, consider exploring Vox's Future Perfect team productions and Adam Becker’s thought-provoking works on technology and society.

---

Transcript

[Sean Robins]

Today, explain Sean Robinsurb outside the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. to ask, would you want to live on Mars?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

No, I wouldn't want to live on Mars. No. I just think simply, it's just too dangerous. Yeah.

[Sean Robins]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Of course. It'd be cool to see something different and be pioneers, even with the risk involved. I mean, we risk our lives when we walk out here on the streets.

[Adam Becker]

No, I would miss my family.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

They're all here.

[Adam Becker]

I would not want to leave them.

[Sean Robins]

Behind if I got paid for it.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah.

[Sean Robins]

How much did you want to get paid for it? $10,000. That's it?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah.

[Sean Robins]

You gotta ask for more.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Okay, $1 million.

[Sean Robins]

That's more like it.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

No, because the risk of death is too high.

[Sean Robins]

What are the risks?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Have you seen the Martian with Matt Damon?

[Sean Robins]

Yeah.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Thank you.

[Sean Robins]

Living on Mars on Today explained from Vox. How do we AI proof our jobs? How do we fix the deficit? How do we get our political system working again? I'm Henry Blodgett and I'm launching a new podcast called Solutions where every week I'll talk to an innovative, enterprising expert.

[Adam Becker]

To cut through the doom and focus.

[Sean Robins]

On how to build a better world. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcasts. The first episode will be out Monday, August 18th. Would you rather have good laws or good people?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

I think that justice is a direction rather than a destination. I don't think you achieve it. I think you're constantly striving for it.

[Adam Becker]

I'm Preet Bharara and this week former.

[Sean Robins]

Dean of Harvard Law School Martha Minow joins me on my podcast Stay Tuned with Preet to discuss the limits of law, the role of forgiveness, and why justice is always a work in progress. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts today, explained Shawn Ramisvir. I'm here with biologist Kelly Wienersmith, who's the co author of a book called A City on Mars. All about our subject today, Settling Mars.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah, so Elon Musk wants a self sustaining settlement. So he wants a backup for humanity.

[Sean Robins]

Having two planets that are both self sustaining and strong I think is going to be incredibly important for the long term survival of civilization.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Jeff Bezos wants us to move heavy industry to space to save Earth and move population from Earth to space.

[Adam Becker]

We can move all heavy industry and.

[Sean Robins]

All polluting industry off of Earth and.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

And operated in space. And then other common arguments are, you know, space resources will make us rich.

[Adam Becker]

The first trillionaire in the World is going to be the person who first mines asteroids.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Space will allow humans to spread out. We won't fight over land anymore. So it will make war either obsolete or at least a lot less common.

[Sean Robins]

I would love to see, you know.

[Adam Becker]

A trillion humans living in the solar system.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

But the arguments that I think are the best are that we need a backup for humanity. But I totally disagree disagree with Musk on the timeline. Elon Musk has said that his company SpaceX can get humans to Mars as early as 2029. And the I think most people, if you push, what they really want to say is that space is awesome and no one has a right to stop them. And so that argument holds as long as the thing you're doing really doesn't hurt anyone. And by the end of the book it wasn't clear to us that that was the case. Because if we end up for a scramble for territory in space between nuclear wielding superpowers, that could have implications for all of us. So it is an activity that impact us all.

[Sean Robins]

We've been talking about Mars for a while on this show. I think we need to like just start from square one. Like how do we go about getting humans to Mars?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah. So the trip to Mars is going to be a long one. With current technology it will take somewhere between six to nine months to get there. During that trip, you're going to be exposed to space radiation. Yes, we'll have shielding, but shielding is heavy and expensive, so we might not have all the shielding that we need. Additionally, none of the current propellers include spacecraft that are rotating, so that would create artificial gravity. So during this trip you're going to be seeing the loss of bone and muscle and maybe even vision that we see on astronauts on the space stations. So it could be not just a dangerous trip, but also a trip where your body is sort of breaking down.

[Sean Robins]

Along the way and then hopefully you're still alive when you get there.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah, fingers crossed.

[Sean Robins]

When people are generally talking about space settlements, what exactly might that look like on Mars? Would it just look like Earth? I don't think so, no.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

No, it's not gonna look like Earth at all. And I think most of the people who want to go to Mars are totally comfortable with that idea. But like, you know, a typical day on Mars you would wake up in an underground bunker because radiation is raining down on the surface of Mars. Cause Mars doesn't have the radiation protections we have here on Earth. So most of the proposals include living underground. You can't step outside of your habitat because Mars has 1% of the atmosphere of Earth and that too low for our bodies to survive. So like the nitrogen would bubble out of your blood and kill you. Probably not a great way to go. So no going outside. A lot of the day is going to be spent on things like subsistence farming. It's going to be hard to grow our own food and do the recycling that we would need to do to make these habitats sustainable. And probably a lot of exercise because 40% of Earth's gravity might not be enough to keep our muscles strong and our bones strong.

[Sean Robins]

It's funny to think of this toxic, deathly desolate planet being the sort of salvation for humanity because what you're describing right now sounds not exactly like something that's gonna save us.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah, but so the rest of space sucks even more is the thing. So Mars has some good stuff. So it has a day and night cycle that's pretty close to Earth, so that'll feel kind of homel. Temperature swings on Mars are pretty moderate compared to what you find on a lot of other planets. And it has a lot of the building blocks that we're going to need to live. It's got oxygen and carbon and water just about everywhere. You got to work a little hard to find it. You got to clean out some chemicals to make it drinkable, but all the stuff we need is there. So I think you can imagine a day when you would have a self sustaining settlement on Mars, and it's hard to imagine that happening just about anywhere else in the solar system.

[Sean Robins]

Okay, so let's say we get to that settlement and whatever, there's a group of a half dozen or a dozen people living up there. We've talked about some of the physical challenges. What about the psychological ones?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Yeah, those could be pretty intense. So you're gonna need plans for how to provide them with support. You might want to send a psychologist with you on this trip because they're not gonna be able to make calls home. So you know, if you're on the International Space Station and you're bummed out, you can call your wife, you know, they're close enough, it works. But Mars has a communication delay that's a minimum of three minutes and as much as like 20 to 22 minutes. And sometimes when Mars is on the other side of the sun from Earth, you can't call at all. So all of your support needs to be self contained because you're not going to be able to have, you know, live calls with your girlfriend, your mother, your psychiatrist, any of those things. And it's probably going to be a little boring. So you'll want to plan ahead. You'll want to bring Netflix if you can.

[Sean Robins]

There's also this idea of like terraforming Mars and making it more Earth, like. Right. Would that help? Is that even possible?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

I mean, it may technically be possible. I mean, when you think about how awful Mars is and the lengths that you'd have to go to to terraform it, it seems crazy when you think about how, you know, we're dealing with a 2 degrees Celsius increase in temperature here on Earth and it's causing us all these problems. The idea that we could control the Martian climate to get it to be Earth, like, is a bit out there. But, you know, most of the proposals invol, like dropping nuclear weapons on the poles to liberate the water vapor which would get trapped in Mars thin atmosphere and slowly warm things up.

[Sean Robins]

There's the fast way and the slow way.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Okay, give me the fast way.

[Sean Robins]

The fast way is drop thermonuclear weapons over the poles. You're a super villain. That's what a super villain does. Yeah.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

This would be something that would take decades, maybe hundreds of years to accomplish. And it's not really clear according that you're allowed to do that. So Mars and all of the rest of space belongs to all of humanity. So before you go dropping nuclear weapons on Mars, you should probably get the whole international community to give that activity the thumbs up. And I'm not super optimistic that would go down well at the un.

[Sean Robins]

I'm glad you brought up the un. Who's in charge up there?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Well, it depends on where the Martians came from. So according to international law, somebody is in charge of people or corporations once they go. So if Elon Musk, through SpaceX, sends a bunch of United States citizens to space, then the United States would be in charge of making sure that the Martians continue to follow international law.

[Sean Robins]

And if it's China, it's China.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

And. Yep, that's right.

[Sean Robins]

But there's the potential for conflict there too, of course.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Absolutely. Yeah. So international law is not clear about what you're allowed to do once you're up there. So you're not allowed to claim sovereignty over anything in space. So Musk can't go up there and claim, you know, a nation that he calls Moscow or something like that, but you can land. You can land anywhere you want and then never leave. And it looks like you can extract resources and sell them. And so, you know, whereas the first space race was Just to get to the moon first and step on it and then go home. It looks like this new space race is going to be between the United States and China. And now it's about grabbing the best parts of space and staying there so that even if you don't call them, you know, China and the US Part two, you're still essentially keeping them just for yourself.

[Sean Robins]

You know, it's funny, on our last show about Mars, we talked about this sort of potential for humanity to work together to accomplish remarkable things out in space as sort of a motivating factor. Is there any chance that, like instead of maybe ending up in some turf war with China or whomever else in Mars one day, like right now, as we're starting to hatch plans to do this, we could collaborate with our adversaries. Is anyone talking about that?

[Kelly Wienersmith]

There's absolutely people who are trying to get all the parties together to figure out a plan that makes everybody happy so that you don't end up with this scramble. This is why I call myself in the book a space bastard. Am I allowed to say bastard on your show? I can say a space jerk.

[Sean Robins]

No, you're allowed to say bastard.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Okay, great, Yeah, a space bastard. Because, you know, you go to space settlement conferences and people say all of these beautiful things and I, I also am inspired and awed by space. But I think that when you're taking on a task where people could die and there could implications for people back here on Earth, it's important that you also be clear eyed about, you know, the kinds of things that humans do. But I hope that we figure out a path forward that's peaceful.

[Sean Robins]

Kelly Wienersmith, Space Bastard or Space jerk? If the kids are around, she's got a podcast. It's called Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. Check it out. I don't know where you land on Mars, but for me it's like, why not boat? Why not work on all our earthly problems while exploring space to the best of our abilities? Why not both? An astrophysicist will tell us why not both when we're back on Today Explained.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Support for Today Explained comes from Thrive Market. If you've been enjoying your summer, Thrive Market wants to remind you that it's gonna end at some point. And so they're having Back to School sale. Okay, let's check it out. If you want your pantry to be full of everything your family needs for back to school time, says Thrive Market, you might want to check out Thrive Market. Even if you're not heading back to school by the way, says Thrive Market. With Thrive, you can find those high quality pantry staples, those snacks, those vitamins, that skin care from those brands you know and trust. And you can shop it all from the comfort of of your home. Claire White is our colleague here at Fox. She has tried Thrive Market. Here's what Claire thinks. Thrive Market's offerings are so expansive. There's not just snacks and fun things to try. There's also pantry staples. So things that I would get in any grocery run like almond butter, olive oil, spices, they really have anything that your kitchen could need. Could now be the best time to try thrive market. 25% off select items, new members 30% off a first order plus a free gift. You can go to thrivemarket.com explain to start saving. That sale ends August 31st at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu. Megan Rapinoe Here this week on A Touch More. We are welcoming a very special guest to the show. She speaks multiple languages, her middle name is literally tough and I used to dread playing against her on the field. That's right, it's five time Champions League winner Lucy Bronze and now two time Euro winner. Plus sue and I discuss the bonkers scoring in the W and share our new workout of the week. Check out our latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[Adam Becker]

Hello, Earth? Hello? What if that's the Earth?

[Sean Robins]

Where the heck am I?

[Adam Becker]

My name is Adam Becker and I am a journalist, author and astrophysicist.

[Sean Robins]

Perfect. What a combo.

[Adam Becker]

Thanks.

[Sean Robins]

Tell me about the author part. What have you written? Books?

[Adam Becker]

Yeah, I've written two books and the more recent one is called More Everything Forever. And it is about the horrible ideas that tech billionaires have about the future that they're trying to shove down our throats and why they don't work.

[Sean Robins]

Is one of them Mars?

[Adam Becker]

One of them is Mars, yeah.

[Sean Robins]

So you think Mars is a horrible idea?

[Adam Becker]

Mars is a horrible idea. Mars is a terrible place.

[Sean Robins]

But you're an astrophysicist author slash journalist, which means at some point you were a young child who dreamt of space. And part of the dream of space is Mars Right, sure, yeah.

[Adam Becker]

No, I mean, when I was a kid, I thought that the future was just in space. You know, I watched a lot of Star Trek. Right. Because I'm a huge nerd and I was like a young growing nerd. And a young, growing nerd needs to consume healthy amounts of Star Trek in order to grow up to be like a big, strong nerd. And when I was a kid, I sort of thought of Star Trek as kind of like a documentary about the future. Not like literally a documentary. But I thought, yeah, this is what we're shooting for. This is what we want. We want to be in space. That's where the good future is. And then I grew up, notably, there.

[Sean Robins]

Weren'T a lot of billionaires on Star Trek, or they didn't talk about it, at least.

[Adam Becker]

No, in fact, what they talked about was that there was no money.

[Sean Robins]

You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

No money, you mean you don't get paid?

[Sean Robins]

The acquisition of wealth is no longer.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

The driving force in our lives.

[Sean Robins]

We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity. So you grow up and you see the intersection of space and money and you kind of change your mind about how you feel about space. Or at least Mars.

[Adam Becker]

Yeah, I mean, look, I love space, right? You know, I did a PhD in astrophysics for a reason. I love space. I think that space research and, like, exploring space with robots and, you know, satellites is amazing. But. But yeah, seeing billionaires turning space into another kind of status icon for the ultra wealthy, it's gross.

[Sean Robins]

Yeah.

[Adam Becker]

You know, Musk talks about Mars as if it's the inevitable future of humanity and that going to Mars as a project to sort of save humanity, like some giant philanthropic effort, and it's just nonsense. He says we gotta go to Mars in case there's a disaster here on Earth. And we gotta put a million people on Mars by 2050, and they gotta be able to survive even if the rockets from Earth stop coming.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

The fundamental fork in the road for.

[Sean Robins]

Human destiny is where Mars can continue to grow even if the supply shifts from Earth stop coming for any reason.

[Adam Becker]

I'm like, dude, that is not happening. Mars is awful and there is nothing that could happen to Earth that would make it a worse place than Mars.

[Sean Robins]

Okay, what about the Bezos argument for space colonization?

[Adam Becker]

I mean, look, I hate to be.

[Sean Robins]

In the position of trying to, like, devil's advocate for these billionaires, but I'm just curious what you make of their arguments.

[Adam Becker]

Okay, I will say one nice thing about one billionaire, right, Jeff? Bezos got it right about Mars. Jeff Bezos, I think at one point made fun of Musk for promoting Mars. He's like, mars sucks. And like, yeah, you know what? Jeff Bezos is right. Mars does suck. It's everything he said after that, that was a problem. Right. Because Bezos also has a specific vision for space. He says, oh, well, we need to go out into space to live in hundreds of thousands or millions of enormous space stations so we can have a trillion humans living in space in a couple of centuries. If we had a trillion humans, we.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Would have at any given time, a.

[Adam Becker]

Thousand Mozarts and a thousand Einsteins.

[Sean Robins]

And before you tell us what you think of that idea. Yeah, we see a lot of this in the science fiction that we love to watch.

[Adam Becker]

Oh, yeah, yeah, totally.

[Sean Robins]

From Star Trek to Interstellar to 2001 A Space Odyssey Space the Final Frontier.

[Adam Becker]

Endurance rotation is 67, 68 RPM.

[Sean Robins]

Hey, get ready to match our spin with the retro thrusters.

[Adam Becker]

It's not possible. No, it's necessary.

[Sean Robins]

Open the pod bay doors, Hal.

[Adam Becker]

I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But you know, science fiction is fiction, right? It is a set of stories that we tell. And we tell those stories not to predict the future, but to say, oh, what if we use this as a setting to explore some question about being a human. One of the great science fiction authors of all time, Ursula Le Guin, said that science fiction is not a guide to the future and that science fiction authors are not good guides to the future and that that's not what the subject is about. But I think like any good millennial, there are tweets that live rent free in my head. And one of them is the Torment Nexus tweet where it says something like science fiction author. In my book, I created the Torment Nexus as a cautionary tale. Tech billionaire. At long last we've created the Torment Nexus from classic science fiction novel. Don't create the Torment Nexus. I agree that science fiction can give us something to aspire to, but it's not the literal technology in the science fiction stories. One of the things I love about Star Trek is it does show a kind of future to aspire to in terms of how the people relate to each other and the kind of world that they've built independent of the technology. You know, Star Trek was groundbreaking even in the original series in terms of, you know, showing a diverse group of people on an aspirational mission of exploration and self actualization and working together as friends to Explore the world that we live in.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

I understand, Mr.

[Sean Robins]

Spark.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

The glory of creation is in its.

[Adam Becker]

Infinite diversity and the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty. That is a future to aspire to. That is not what Jeff Bezos has in mind. Jeff Bezos's idea is to put a trillion people in space. And he says he wants this because if we stay here on Earth, in a few centuries, we're going to run out of resources and run out of energy. And he's right about that. That's true. If you just assume the current rate of constant growth in usage of energy, then a few centuries after that, 700 or 1,000 years after that, you're using all of the energy output of the sun.

[Sean Robins]

But what you're saying is there's an alternate, and that is to not use all of our resources.

[Adam Becker]

Yeah. Or at least to, you know, safeguard them more wisely and use them, you know, in a more sustainable way.

[Sean Robins]

It sounds like for all your you disagree on with these tech billionaires when it comes to Mars or space colonization, like we all have to agree that life on Earth is not infinite.

[Adam Becker]

Sure.

[Sean Robins]

Our sun, the source of life here on Earth, will eventually die.

[Adam Becker]

Yes.

[Sean Robins]

And I know it's very far away.

[Adam Becker]

It is.

[Sean Robins]

But we made it to the moon.

[Adam Becker]

Yep.

[Sean Robins]

And making it to Mars feels like it could be, you know, a step in the right direction. And you know, when I sat on the steps of the Air and Space Museum here in Washington D.C. and asked people whether we should go to Mars or whether they would want to go to Mars, they don't talk about Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

I think we need to see it. I think we need to expand what we know, what we see.

[Sean Robins]

They kind of talk about that idea that space is infinite and as a race, a human race. Yeah. I just think it's a cool like advancement for like humankind and everything. It's something we should pursue. Do you have to push the limit of science to discover new things? Do you really think that we should skip the stepping stone just because these guys have some maybe wrong headed ideas about why we should be taking that step in the first place?

[Adam Becker]

I mean, look, I don't think Mars sucks because the billionaires want to go there. I think Mars sucks and the billionaires.

[Kelly Wienersmith]

Want to go there.

[Sean Robins]

And you don't even see a reason to go there so that we can experiment with what it would be like to live on another planet. Long term. You don't even see a use for that because it might teach us something about the actual moonshot that we discover in 100 or 1000 years, which is there's some planet in some distant galaxy that's just like home.

[Adam Becker]

Look, if we find a planet around another star, even in our own galaxy, forget distant galaxy, that's just like home. We're not going. It's not happening, okay? The speed of light limit is a hard stop. We are not going. And no one is coming to save us. And I find that hopefully we have to save ourselves. There's a story, okay? And I don't know if this is true. I think it's apocryphal that toward the end of his life, somebody asked the great architect and visionary R. Buckminster Fuller if he was sad that he was going to die without ever having gone to space. And his answer was, we're in space. We live in space. And we live in the most special and amazing place in space. This is a place that we evolved to live. And everything about it is so well suited for us. And it's not just the distance of the planet from our sun. It's not just the mix of gases in our atmosphere. It is everything about this biosphere. We can eat, cut the fruit off the trees. We live in a place where food literally grows on trees. It's awesome. This is an amazing place. And we should continue to learn about the universe that we are a part of as we build a better home for ourselves here where we belong.

[Sean Robins]

That was Adam Becker. He's written two books. The most recent one is More Everything Forever. AI Overlords, Space Empires and Silicon Valley's crusade to control the fate of humanity. Abhishai Artsy produced today's show, which was made in collaboration with Vox's Future Perfect team. Jolie Myers edited. Laura Bullard checked the vax. Patrick Boyd mixed. You can listen to today explained sans ads by going to Vox.com members. And you can listen to our Sunday show. Explain it to me, tell you more about well, well, wellness here on Earth this weekend. Sam.