MAGA rethinks Ukraine

Summary

Today, Explained – “MAGA Rethinks Ukraine”

Podcast by Vox
Aired: August 10, 2026
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram (not present this episode), Noel King
Guests: Isaac Arnsdorf (Washington Post), Marcus Walker (Wall Street Journal), Laura Loomer (audio and paraphrased quotes)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a surprising shift within the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement regarding the war in Ukraine. The focal point is Laura Loomer, a prominent MAGA influencer and habitual provocateur, who, after years of parroting pro-Russian talking points, travels to Ukraine and dramatically changes her stance. The hosts and guests break down what her about-face means for the MAGA movement, its influence on Donald Trump, and the broader American right's relationship with Russia and Ukraine. The second part delves into the state of the war, Ukraine's military resilience, and the evolving battlefield, especially regarding drone warfare.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Laura Loomer’s MAGA-to-Pro-Ukraine Pivot

[00:18–05:21]

• Loomer’s Background & Shock Reversal

  • Laura Loomer: Formerly a stalwart anti-Ukraine, pro-Russia voice in the MAGA universe. Known for outlandish stunts and loyalty to Trump.
  • After visiting Ukraine, Loomer tells the AP, “I was once that person too, but then I decided to come to a war zone and see things for myself.” (Laura Loomer, [00:32])
  • Her experience led to a rare public admission of being wrong, and a newfound support for Ukraine.

• Roots of MAGA Skepticism Toward Ukraine

  • Rooted in 2016 Russian election interference and partisan divisions. Trump’s need to defend his win led to MAGA skepticism toward Ukraine and embrace of Russian narratives.
  • Isaac Arnsdorf: “She and a lot of other Trump supporters got kicked off Twitter and Facebook...that kind of drove her into the arms of alternative outlets like RT...that contributed to her becoming more susceptible to these Russian storyline about why Ukraine was the bad guy.” ([03:17])

• Loomer’s Transformation and Geopolitical Rationale

  • Back from Ukraine, Loomer adopts “Zelenskyy’s talking points,” but in the “language of MAGA.”
  • Laura Loomer ([04:59]): “If Ukraine falls, well, what happens next? Russia has already said that their goal is to go to war with all of the NATO members...Its ultimate goal is the destruction of the West.”

2. Loomer’s Influence Within MAGA and on Trump

[05:21–11:17]

• Loomer’s New Line on Russia

  • Loomer’s shift is dramatic and uncompromising: “Putin is the bad guy. Russia is on the wrong side of the war.” ([07:24])
  • Loomer even advocates for direct action: “I would kill Vladimir Putin. I would find a way for that world leader to tragically pass away from a heart attack very unexpectedly.” (Laura Loomer, [07:48])

• Why Loomer Matters

  • Isaac Arnsdorf: “Because Trump likes her a lot.” ([08:18])
  • Trump props up Loomer publicly, gives political cover to Republicans to become more supportive of Ukraine.

• Ripple Effects Inside the GOP

  • Loomer’s turnaround opens political space for other Republicans.
  • Her visibility—Trump promoted her interview with Zelenskyy—signals a potential shift that could impact party policy.

• Party Rift and the MAGA Infowars

  • Not all right-wing figures are following suit—figures like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens remain stridently pro-Russia, deepening the rift on the American right.

• Ukraine’s Outreach to MAGA

  • Ukrainian leadership (Zelenskyy and ambassador) identified the need to court American conservatives, especially MAGA influencers, to ensure continued U.S. support.
  • Isaac Arnsdorf: “If they could make their case to MAGA influencers...that would be crucial to changing public opinion among Americans and maybe even Trump himself.” ([11:17])

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3. Ukraine’s Battlefield Realities & Innovations

[16:02–26:28]

• Marcus Walker on “Ukraine’s got Russia on its back”

  • Recap of the war’s arc: From Crimea’s seizure in 2014 and the 2022 invasion, Russia expected a quick victory, but Ukrainian unity and adaptability changed the game.
  • “The very fact of Russian pressure on Ukraine had somehow welded Ukrainians together...” (Marcus Walker, paraphrased, [17:03])

• Drone Warfare Revolution

  • Ukraine’s rapid battlefield innovation, especially with drones, levels the playing field.
  • Consumer tech adapted for war: “...the drone revolution started with consumer drones...with claw to them that can then drop a grenade...now these things have become really a deadly fleet of...flying killer robots...” ([21:19])

• Tactical Evolution

  • Both sides locked in technological one-upmanship.
  • Russia innovates with fiber optic-controlled drones to avoid jamming; Ukraine responds and adapts.
  • “Every time I come back and talk to military units here, everything’s changed. The tactics that worked last year no longer work. And the drones that work now didn’t exist three months ago.” (Marcus Walker, [24:15])

• Biggest Strategic Use of Drones

  • Beyond battlefield: Ukraine targets Russian logistics, oil refineries, even companies like Wildberries (“Russian Amazon”) to disrupt economy, supplies, and morale in Russia.

4. Can Ukraine Win by “Not Losing”?

[25:24–26:28]

• Definition of Victory
  • Victory for Russia: political subjugation of Ukraine—a “protectorate”—seems increasingly out of reach.
  • Victory for Ukraine: survive as independent nation, even if territory is lost.
  • “The Russians seem to be counting on the West...getting tired of supporting Ukraine...Putin seems to believe without this international support from the West, Kyiv won’t be able to carry this on forever.” (Marcus Walker, [25:46])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Laura Loomer, on changing her mind:
  • “I was once that person too, but then I decided to come to a war zone and see things for myself.” ([00:32])
• Isaac Arnsdorf, on MAGA media susceptibility:
  • “...it kind of drove her into the arms of alternative outlets like RT...that contributed to her becoming more susceptible to these Russian storyline about why Ukraine was the bad guy.” ([03:17])
• Laura Loomer, on Russian propaganda after her pivot:
  • “...people now in America are commenting under my post...‘Oh, you’re a sellout...paid $2 million by the Ukrainian government.’ I was not paid by anybody to come here.” ([04:17])
• Laura Loomer, on Ukraine and Russia:
  • “Putin is the bad guy. Russia is on the wrong side of the war.” ([07:24])
• Laura Loomer, on what to do with Putin:
  • “I would kill Vladimir Putin. I would find a way for that world leader to tragically pass away from a heart attack very unexpectedly.” ([07:48])
• Isaac Arnsdorf, on Loomer’s importance:
  • “...Trump likes her a lot.” ([08:18])
• Marcus Walker, on the course of the war:
  • “...the very fact of Russian pressure on Ukraine had somehow welded Ukrainians together…” ([17:03])
• Marcus Walker, on drone warfare:
  • “...a deadly fleet of flying killer robots that saturates the frontline area.” ([21:19])
• Marcus Walker, on the pace of change:
  • “The drones that work now didn’t exist three months ago.” ([24:15])
• Marcus Walker, on the war’s possible outcome:
  • “Winning in war means achieving your political war aims. And Ukraine’s aim is to survive as an independent nation state. It can do that even if it loses about 20% of its territory.” ([25:24])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:18–01:00: Introduction to Laura Loomer’s surprise reversal
• 02:15–05:21: Explanation of MAGA’s historic ties to Russian narratives
• 05:21–08:04: Loomer’s new pro-Ukraine arguments and strident rhetoric against Russia
• 08:05–11:17: Loomer’s influence on Trump, GOP, and implications for Ukraine support
• 16:06–18:28: Marcus Walker keynote: Ukraine’s military and societal transformation post-2014
• 18:28–23:40: Ukraine’s drone warfare innovation and tactical uses
• 23:40–25:03: Russian battlefield innovations and the ongoing “arms race”
• 25:24–26:28: What “winning” means for Ukraine

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Episode Takeaways

• Laura Loomer’s dramatic shift from a vocal anti-Ukraine stance to supporting Ukraine marks a significant disruption in the MAGA right’s position—potentially influencing Trump’s thinking and providing political cover for others in the movement.
• Ukraine’s military resilience is due in great part to agility, improvisation, and rapid technological innovation—particularly in drone warfare.
• The outcome of the war remains uncertain, but Russian political goals increasingly appear out of reach as Ukraine’s society grows more unified and innovative under pressure.
• Ukraine’s leaders recognize the strategic importance of winning over American conservatives—including those with initially hostile positions—to maintain vital Western support.

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Transcript

[Noel King]

Inveterate MAGA trickster Laura Loomer never fails to surprise. In college, to prove a point, she tried to start an ISIS support group in New York. She crashed Shakespeare in the Park's production of Julius Caesar in the second Trump administration. She's literally telling him who to fire.

[Marcus Walker]

You're in deep trouble. That's the end of your career.

[Noel King]

In a sense, it was then, without exaggeration, a complete shock when Loomer turned up in a bomb shelter in Ukraine about two weeks ago and told a reporter from the AP she'd changed her mind.

[Laura Loomer]

People love being keyboard warriors and saying things are fake. I was once that person too, but then I decided to come to a war zone and see things for myself.

[Noel King]

Like much of the Magaverse, Loomer has long been critical of Ukraine while praising Russia. But something made her do the thing that no one ever seems to do. These admit she was wrong. Now she might even be influencing President Trump's attitude toward Ukraine. Coming up on Today explained from Vox Maga rethinks Ukraine

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[Noel King]

This is TODAY Expl.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

I'm Isaac Arnstorff. I'm the White House bureau chief for the Washington Post.

[Noel King]

Isaac, let's talk about something that has been in your in your coverage stream of late. MAGA luminary personality Laura Loomer finds herself yet again at the scene of a crime. Take me back just a bit. Laura Loomer is somebody within the MAGA universe who has been anti American involvement with Ukraine. Did she ever, like, give reasons a history?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Well, I mean, the context here goes back 10 years. It all goes back to the Russian interference in the 2016 election.

[Marcus Walker]

New evidence of Russia's determination to interfere in our election. A bipartisan report from the Senate Intelligence Committee details how Russia targeted voting Systems in all 50 states and warns the threat persists today.

Candidate Donald Trump routinely downplayed suggestions that Russia was interfering.

Could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Okay, so Trump responds to that by needing to protect the legitimacy of his win. So kind of overcorrecting to say, not only was there no interference, but actually, what's so bad about Russia?

[Marcus Walker]

They think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said, it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. Putin's a killer. A lot of killers. We got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And the Russians respond by saying, well, actually, the Ukrainians were trying to interfere on behalf of the Democrats. And that drives people into their partisan corners. You know, Russia gets kind of pro Trump coded and Ukraine gets pro Democrat coded. And then Loomer particularly, what she told me was pretty interesting that she and a lot of other Trump supporters got kicked off of Twitter and Facebook and mainstream social media platforms. And she said the effect of that for her was it kind of drove her into the arms of alternative outlets like rt, which stands for Russia Today. It's the English language propaganda arm of Russian state media. And by her own telling, now that contributed to her becoming more susceptible to these Russian storyline about why Ukraine. Ukraine was the bad guy.

[Laura Loomer]

The Russians are very good at pushing out conspiracy theories, pushing out propaganda. And there's already people now in America that are commenting under my. My post. Oh, you're a sellout. I'm unfollowing you because you're paid $2 million by the Ukrainian government. I was not paid by anybody to come here.

[Noel King]

Okay, so she comes back from Ukraine and she's talking positively about Ukraine. What's she saying exactly? What is she like about Ukraine?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Now she comes back articulating Zelensky's talking points. Really, really better than he can because his English isn't that good. But also he's, you know, she really is more especially conversant in the language of maga.

[Laura Loomer]

We have to start thinking geopolitically long term, if Ukraine falls, well, what happens next? Russia has already said that their goal is to go to war with all of the NATO members. Well, what is their ultimate goal? Right. It's the destruction of the West. And what is the West? Well, it's civilized European countries that aren't included in Eastern Europe, and it's the United States of America.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And so letting Russia prevail in this war with Ukraine would directly be bad for America. Trump has kind of gone back and forth. You know, his main interest has been trying to end the war, which he promised to do before taking office and obviously hasn't succeeded in doing yet.

[Marcus Walker]

Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And so he's kind of gone through these bouts of frustration with one side or the other, whoever he feels like is being more difficult. But he kind of looks at this conflict and looks at this map like a, you know, it's a cliche, but like a, like a businessman, like a, like a real estate person. He looks at it like Russia big and powerful, Ukra little and weak. Like, why do I want to be on Ukraine's side here when I could be friends with Russia? The answer that Loomer is offering is like, well, because Russia doesn't want to be friends with you. Like, Russia has nothing, has no interest in getting, having better relations with the US Just because Trump has an idea that he could have better relations with Russia and with Putin. Whereas Ukraine does have a lot to offer that they're eager to offer. Kyiv reportedly has agreed to send battle

[Noel King]

tested drones to the U.S. actually, nobody could deny that the new reality of the warfare has been created in Ukraine by Ukrainians and by Ukrainian ingenuity.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And that argument has a chance to be more persuasive now that Trump is stuck with this war in Iran.

[Noel King]

All right, so she's come back. She's anti Russia. Now. What's she saying about Russia and about Putin?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

She is going a lot farther than Trump or others will go in. Trump is still being somewhat equivocal on wanting to have a good relationship with both.

[Marcus Walker]

Look, we're not involved from the standpoint. We're separated by an ocean.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And Loomer has done a full reversal to becoming very black and white. Putin is the bad guy. Russia is on the wrong side of the war.

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War.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Morally, the war is Russia's fault. And she said that Russia, she said online that Russia deserves the Maduro or the Khomeini treatment, meaning that the US should either capture or kill him.

[Laura Loomer]

I mean, look, if I was President of the United States and Russia was supplying Iran with weapons, I would kill Vladimir Putin. I would find a way for that world leader to tragically pass away from a heart attack very unexpectedly.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Noel King]

Okay, Laura Loomer, and let's talk bigger than Laura Loomer, because she is just one, however bright personality within the MAGA universe. So why do we care about her? Why does it matter that she's come back from Ukraine and said, I support

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Ukraine now because Trump likes her

[Noel King]

a lot.

[Marcus Walker]

Hi, Laura. Well, you are something. What spirit you have, Laura. Laura Loomer. Thank you, honey, for being here. I appreciate it. Jesus. You know, she could be a little nasty, but to me, she's always nice, so that's all about it. I want her to stay that way too.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And she's expecting to come to the White House at some point this month and talk about it with him further. But he pays attention to what she writes. He promoted online her interview with Zelensky, so that association kind of makes it okay or gives some political cover to other Republicans. We saw when Zelensky came to Washington for Graham's funeral and he met with Trump, and that meeting went much better than some previous ones, and he had a lot of fans on the Republicans side of the aisle already. But there was definitely a sense that Loomer coming out and becoming so pro Ukraine made it more okay for Republicans to be so supportive of Zelenskyy than before when it was so divisive in the party.

[Noel King]

What about the pro Russia voices on the right, Candace Owens? I'm thinking Tucker Carlson. I'm thinking, are they showing any signs of wavering on their. In their support?

[Marcus Walker]

No.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And they're really getting into it with Loomer as a result of this. And similarly, those, those other right wing podcasters are really breaking with Trump on starting the war in Iran and supporting Israel and then kind of deepening this rift in the movement over what America means or what people thought it meant versus what it means Now.

[Noel King]

What has Trump said recently about Ukraine? Any, any sense? I mean, he's retweeting Laura Loomer, but any sense that he's changing his mind?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

He's definitely been warmer towards Zelensky than, I mean, you remember the first time Zelensky visited?

[Noel King]

Oh, yeah.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And he basically got thrown out in the gutter.

[Marcus Walker]

Your country's in big trouble. Wait a minute. No, no, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. I know you're not winning. You're not winning this.

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

And they had a, by all accounts, good meeting in Turkey on the sidelines of the NATO summit last month also. But he is still pressuring Zelensky to end the war. He still wants to have a good relationship with Putin. So again, he is not going as far as Loomer is.

[Noel King]

How much does it matter? I mean, look, Ukraine is fighting a brutal war. It has been for four and a half years. And I imagine if you are in Ukraine, either as a leader or civilian, you don't really. You struggle to care what the heck Laura Loomer thinks, Right? You have real desires. You have things you want the United States to do for you. So how much does it matter to Ukraine that some MAGA personalities and maybe President Trump are more sympathetic to its cause?

[Isaac Arnsdorf]

No, it's huge. I mean, they were thrilled with the Loomer visit. I mean, they view U.S. support as critical. I mean, the Europeans are doing more, but there's a lot that the Europeans can't do that they need the US For. And so actually, like a year ago, before the US Ambassador came to Washington, she and Zelensky came up with this plan that they needed to do better. They needed to counter what Russia had been doing to court American conservatives. They needed to engage more with MAGA influencers, even if they were Ukraine skeptics. This was like their dream come true in terms of what they wanted to happen eventually. That if they could make their case to MAGA influencers, if they could get them to be more sympathetic, if they could get them to come to Ukraine and see things from their perspective, then that would be crucial to changing public opinion among Americans and maybe even Trump himself.

[Noel King]

That was Isaac Arnsdorf of the Washington Washington Post. When we come back, the smart money said Ukraine could not win this war. Why? The smart money hasn't been proven right yet. Support for Today explained comes from Vanta. If you're running a company, you know that trust is what closes deals. Your buyers want proof you're secure and increasingly they won't sign until they see it. Here's what usually happens, according to Vanta. A prospect asks for your SOC to report and the deal stalls while you scramble. An engineer gets pulled off the roadmap to prep for an audit that's months away. Every enterprise conversation turns into a fire drill.

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[Noel King]

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[Isaac Arnsdorf]

Ukraine Ukraine Explained.

[Marcus Walker]

It's Ukraine Explained.

[Noel King]

I'm Noel King with Marcus Walker. He's the Ukraine Bureau Chief for the Wall Street Journal. Marcus, you recently wrote that Ukraine has Russia on its back.

[Marcus Walker]

How?

[Noel King]

What do you mean?

[Marcus Walker]

To understand what's happened this year, I think we have to go back to the very beginnings of the war, which were in 2014 when Russia seized Crimea and the Eastern Donbas region. In a smaller scale war, we turn

[Noel King]

tonight to the tension rising around the world as Russian President Vladimir Putin casts his shadow across the boundary of Europe and Russia.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Russian Troops moving swiftly to take control of military bases in Crimea.

[Marcus Walker]

And at the time, Ukraine was a militarily weak country. Its army was pretty backward and had outdated equipment. Although it fought hard, as hard as it could, the society was politically divided, especially over its relationship with Russia and with the west and with Europe. And Russia seems to have drawn the lesson that Ukraine would be a pushover when it launched its full scale invasion in 2022. And at the time now, four and a half years ago, even most Western governments and intelligence services thought that Russia would win the war eas. But instead, it turns out that in the meantime, the very fact of Russian pressure on Ukraine had somehow welded Ukrainians together and created a stronger, more united society and state that shared, whatever the internal differences, at least the determination to have a country called Ukraine. And in the meantime, they did a lot of reforms to their country and to their military. And so when Russia launched a full scale invasion, thinking, this will be easy, the whole place will collapse like a house of cards if we do a little shock and awe operation, instead, they found themselves in a full scale war that they've been unable to win. On balance, Russia is really struggling to get any military result, despite the investment of massive resources and the loss of incredible numbers of soldiers in trying to win this war. It just isn't able to turn its advantage in numbers to into victory. And right now, it's hard to see Ukraine collapsing. However, Ukraine's a long way from winning outright, and the outcome of this war is ultimately still open and depends on many things.

[Noel King]

Okay, but Ukraine must be doing something right on the battlefield. What is it doing right?

[Marcus Walker]

Well, it has found ways to counteract Russia's advantage in numbers, in manpower and in equipment. And above all, the asymmetric war that Ukraine has been fighting has come to rely heavily on drones.

[Noel King]

Ukraine has carried out one of the

[Marcus Walker]

deadliest drone strikes on Russia so far, killing at least 13 people and wounding dozens more.

[Noel King]

Black smoke is hanging over the Russian city of Yaroslavl, the home of one of the country's biggest oil refineries, after a Ukrainian drone attack on its know

[Marcus Walker]

how and on its skill at improvisation to develop a new form of drone warfare that other countries around the world have been trying to learn from, including the US military, including Middle Eastern countries, including Iran, and including other NATO countries in Europe. And of course the Russians too. They've tried to copy Ukrainian drone tactics. And so there is a constant arms race here in terms of drone technology and tactics. And both sides are now using incredible numbers of these, often very tiny weapons, often 12 or 15 inches big, with four little propellers that can kill at ranges of 20, 30 miles.

[Noel King]

What is Ukraine using the drones to do exactly?

[Marcus Walker]

More and more things. They are both the most important tactical weapon at the front for killing Russian infantry. They are also using larger bomber drones with propellers or with wings to try and destroy Russian logistics, to blow up trucks transporting ammunition or other supplies on the supply roads far behind the front. They are using long range drones that can fly for 1,000 miles or more to destroy Russian oil refineries deep inside Russia in an attempt to cut off the oil revenues that are vital for the Russian state and for Putin's ability to finance the war. On the front line. Drones are also doing all sorts of work that humans used to do, such as transporting ammunition and food and water to the infantry soldiers in the front line. So if you go to frontline areas now or anywhere near them, you can see ground drones, little remote control vehicles with big chunky whales trundling along on their own with no human in sight. And they are doing a lot of the dangerous work near the front. They also, for example, evacuate wounded Ukrainian soldiers. They will lie down on these ground drones and be ferried out, because that is better than having six men carry you out on a stretcher where if you're hit again, they, you might have seven casualties.

[Noel King]

The idea of drone stretchers is mind boggling. And it makes me wonder, how did Ukraine end up using drones in so many areas and so successfully? Is this just weaponry evolving the way it tends to do?

[Marcus Walker]

Well, there is something particular, obviously, in all wars, innovation happens very fast under the pressure of necessity. But there is something very particular about Ukraine. It is a country of people like to improvise. It's also a country with a large software sector, a large IT sector, many, many people with tech skills. And it's a place where large parts of the military have a culture of, as we journalists sometimes put it, of trying to MacGyver Solutions. You take what you have and you improvise. And it so happened that the drone revolution started with consumer drones, the same kind of quadcopters that people were using to take pictures on holiday or to photograph a wedding. And they worked out ways to attach a claw to them that can then drop a grenade or, you know, strap some explosives to it and crash the whole drone into a Russian vehicle. That was how it began at the start of this war in 2022. But now these things have become really a deadly fleet of, yeah, flying killer robots that saturates the frontline area. But of course, the Russians are doing the same. So on both sides of the front line, it has become extremely difficult and dangerous to move under a sky full of these killer robots.

[Noel King]

Yes, killer robots. My gosh. I was reading this weekend that Ukraine has been using drones to target warehouses for this company called Wildberrys. It's kind of like Amazon for Russia. What's the strategy there?

[Marcus Walker]

Well, there are a couple of aspects to that. One is that Wildberry has also been selling a large amount of military gear, such as body armor or drone components. So it's more like an Amazon from which you can, you know, the army can, all soldiers can order a lot of gear to continue the war. So it is a way of disrupting military logistics. But also it strikes a blow to Russian civilian perceptions of the war because for years, Putin tried to tell the Russian population that this war was something happening far away and it wouldn't touch them directly. Now it turns out that their equivalent of Amazon deliveries are not going to be arriving because the warehouse burned down. At the same time, it's a way of damaging the Russian economy because Wildberries also owes a lot of money to banks. And so if the company is in trouble, then it also causes troubles for the Russian banking system and it hurts the tax revenues of the Russian government that pay for the war.

[Noel King]

Is Russia showing evolution on the battlefield as well?

[Marcus Walker]

Yes, they have. They have also come up with their own innovations. For example, in the last couple of years, since about 2024, they've been using large numbers of drones on fiber optic cables. That means the pilot that's flying them is attached via a long, thin plastic cable or fiber optic cable to a drone that carries a spool and is unspooling this cable as it flies. Now, what does that do? It means that electronic interference with the radio signal is no longer possible because there is a physical connection between the pilot and the drone. So that was an innovation that. Yeah, bypass electronic warfare or the interception of the radio signal of the video feed that pilots need to fly their drones. And they've had other innovations too. The Russians last year, for example, came up with a whole new class of medium range drones. And these were cheap, fixed wing drones. The Ukrainians have now responded and made their own versions which are better. But it really is a constant race of innovation and adaptations. And every time I come back and talk to military units here, everything's changed. The tactics that worked last year no longer work. And the drones that work now didn't exist three months ago.

[Noel King]

Do you think I mean, look, four and a half years. I remember when the war started and I remember interviewing analysts who said, maybe a couple of months, maybe a year, Ukraine is going to be finished. And so four and a half years on, obviously the shocker is Ukraine is not finished. Is there some possibility that Ukraine can win this war by not losing it?

[Marcus Walker]

Yes. I mean, winning in war means achieving your political war aims. And Ukraine's aim is to survive as an independent nation state. It can do that. It can achieve that even if it loses currently about 20% of its territory that's under Russian occupation. Indeed, I think it's hard to see how Russia can achieve its own central war aim, which was to reimpose political control over Ukraine, to turn it into a kind of protectorate, really, to take back control of the place that was once Russia's largest colony. It's very hard to see how the Russians can achieve that. The Russians seem to be counting on the west, on the US and the Europeans getting tired of supporting Ukraine, of sending financing and loans and weaponry. Putin seems to believe that without this international support from the West, Kyiv won't be able to carry this on forever.

[Noel King]

Marcus Walker, he's the Wall Street Journal's Ukraine bureau chief. Kelly Wessinger produced today's show with an assist from Abishai. Jolie Myers edited, Patrick Boyden, David Tadashore engineered and Gabriel Donatov. Check the fact facts. I'm Noel King. It's today explained.

[Marcus Walker]

You.

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