Today, Explained: “MAGA’s other immigration battle”

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Ested Herndon (for Vox)
Guests: Michelle Hackman (WSJ), Vivek Wadhwa (Tech Entrepreneur), Donald Trump (clips), Elon Musk (clips)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the surprising and fraught MAGA-era debate over legal immigration—specifically H1B visas for high-skilled foreign workers. While former President Trump and his base are known for hardline stances against undocumented immigration, his views and policies regarding skilled legal immigration remain conflicted. The episode covers the historical push-pull between pro-business Republicans and the nativist hard right, the recent imposition of a $100,000 H1B visa fee, and the business consequences for America’s tech and innovation economy. Featuring Michelle Hackman and tech CEO Vivek Wadhwa, the conversation highlights how this policy battle pits Trump’s political interests against business needs and the U.S. tradition of skilled immigration.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Dual-Edged Approach to Immigration (00:00–04:53)

• Trump’s rhetoric against illegal immigration has been consistent:

  “All illegal entry will immediately be halted and we will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came.” — Donald Trump (00:05)

• But legal immigration, especially H1B visas, is contentious even among MAGA loyalists. Trump sometimes defends the need for high-skilled foreign workers, even as right-wing critics oppose the program.

• Ested Herndon on the contradiction:

  “So why is President Trump supporting a program that his MAGA base doesn’t like?” (00:48)

Notable moment: Trump pushes back on a Fox News host about H1B visas.

“You also do have to bring in talent...when we have plenty of talented people.” — Donald Trump (00:42)

2. History and Controversy of H1B Visas (02:21–04:53)

• Michelle Hackman explains how H1Bs became central to U.S. tech labor:
  • Many IT outsourcing firms revolve around hiring mostly Indian men on H1Bs for cheaper tech labor.
  • Companies increasingly replaced in-house IT staff with outsourced labor from H1B-dependent firms.
• During Trump’s first term, a tug-of-war between America First nationalists and pro-business elements in the administration led to only marginal changes in the visa program.

“The story of the first Trump administration was...the MAGA right hates the H1B. A lot of other big business owners...love the H1B. So you see this policy tug of war…the result is overall, nothing really happens." — Michelle Hackman (04:20)

3. Rising Hardline MAGA Opposition (04:55–07:54)

• Under Biden and Trump, both parties tweak H1B policies but avoid major reforms.
• Hackman describes a growing anti-H1B, sometimes racist, sentiment among the MAGA base:

“You had people using more and more strident, sort of racist, anti-Indian language... tweets from people basically saying...‘we can’t be hiring Indians... it’s going to smell like curry.’” — Michelle Hackman (05:54)

• As Trump returns to office, the debate ignites again.

4. Tech Titans and the Policy "Tug of War" (06:39–07:54)

• High-profile businesspeople, notably Elon Musk, champion H1Bs:

“The reason I’m in America, along with so many critical people...is because of H1B. I will go to war on this issue, the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend.” — Elon Musk (06:42)

• But with Musk’s exit from government, anti-H1B voices dominate, led by adviser Stephen Miller:

“Stephen Miller’s the one in charge...Suddenly...we get this announcement that they’re attaching a $100,000 fee to the H1B visa.” — Michelle Hackman (07:32)

• Trump frames this move as shutting down cheap foreign labor:

“So the whole idea is no more will these big tech companies...train foreign workers. Train Americans, stop bringing in people.” — Donald Trump (07:47, 08:01)

5. Conflicting Presidential Messages Vs. Policy (08:06–12:31)

• Even as Trump’s administration imposes barriers, Trump himself voices support for high-skilled immigration.

“[The] tug of war seems to be won by the Stephen Miller side...but then we saw Trump say he thinks the U.S. needs to bring in more foreign workers… Help square this circle for me.” — Ested Herndon (08:06)

• Hackman explains Trump’s personal business background—using foreign talent at his hotels—makes him sympathetic to pro-H1B arguments, but his administration’s policies consistently reflect the hard-right stance.

• Telling quote:

“Trump himself was a businessman...my God, you know, when I was running my hotels, I couldn’t find Americans who wanted to take these jobs. So I had to hire people on visas.” — Michelle Hackman (10:48)

6. What Happens Next? (12:31–13:43)

• The $100,000 fee is effectively an attempt to kill the H1B program without legislative action.
• Uncertainty for businesses:

“The big thing we’ll be watching for is are companies going to be willing to pay this gigantic fee?...Or are they just going to hire someone in Canada, or... open an office in Europe?” — Michelle Hackman (13:05)

7. The Business Perspective: Vivek Wadhwa's Story (17:53–26:48)

Skill Shortages and American Innovation (18:28–19:55)

• Vivek Wadhwa recounts his own immigrant entrepreneur story, emphasizing immigrants’ role in American tech:

“From 1995 to 2005, a quarter of all the startups in Silicon Valley were founded by immigrants. A decade later, the trend had become national.” — Vivek Wadhwa (18:28)

The Problem With H1B—for Both Sides (20:07–21:07)

• Wadhwa agrees the H1B system is abused for cheap labor, and leaves immigrants trapped in underpaid roles:

“People...continue doing the same job...they’re stuck in limbo and making below market salaries. So the opponents of H1B visas are correct in the fact that the system is abused and...impacts U.S. salaries.” — Vivek Wadhwa (20:46)

Crushing Start-Ups With the H1B Fee (21:34–23:34)

• The new $100,000 fee would shut out startups:

“A startup works on fumes...$100,000 is unaffordable.” — Vivek Wadhwa (21:34)

• Severe barriers led Wadhwa to take his latest company to India, not the U.S.:

“I decided to move my company to India. So the United States lost over here.” — Vivek Wadhwa (23:32)

Loyalty & Regret (24:20–25:00)

• Emotional toll for immigrant entrepreneurs who want to build in America but can’t:

“My loyalty is to America. This is why it pains me that I had to build my technology in India...not dealing with all the nightmares and the stigma around H1B visas and then the delays, the $100,000.” — Vivek Wadhwa (24:20)

Solutions (25:27–26:09)

• Wadhwa: Free highly skilled immigrants from “limbo” by clearing green card backlogs and ending punitive fees.
• Warns of the danger to America’s innovation advantage:

“If we don’t bring the skills, engineers, and scientists to the United States, other countries will...and that breaks my heart. We have to save America from itself.” — Vivek Wadhwa (26:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump's ambivalence:

  “I know the H1B very well, and it's something that I frankly use and I shouldn't be allowed to use. We shouldn't have it, very, very bad for workers.” — Donald Trump (03:54)

• Racial undertones in anti-H1B sentiment:

  “You had people...saying, we can't be hiring Indians to work at the White House. It's going to smell like curry.” — Michelle Hackman (05:54)

• Elon Musk's advocacy:

  “I will go to war on this issue, the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend.” — Elon Musk (06:42)

• Economic consequences:

  “Why on earth would I pay this? I'm just going to hire someone in Canada or I'm going to hire someone remotely.” — Michelle Hackman (13:12)

• Founder's heartbreak:

  “My loyalty is to America. This is why it pains me that I had to build my technology in India, even though I love India also.” — Vivek Wadhwa (24:20)

Key Timestamps

• 00:00–01:00 — Framing Trump’s stance on illegal vs. legal immigration
• 02:21–04:53 — History and abuse of the H1B program, Trump administration’s first-term dynamics
• 05:38–07:54 — MAGA hardliners vs. business supporters; rise of anti-H1B sentiment
• 06:39–07:54 — Elon Musk’s defense and exit; Stephen Miller’s hardline dominance; $100k H1B fee
• 08:06–12:31 — Trump’s ambivalent views versus conflicting H1B policies
• 13:05–13:43 — Uncertain future for the H1B program: will businesses pay or move jobs away?
• 17:53–26:48 — Vivek Wadhwa’s personal story; H1B’s role in innovation; consequences of the fee; proposed solutions

Tone and Takeaways

The episode exudes a tone of perplexity and frustration: perplexity at Trump’s mixed signals and the inherent contradictions in MAGA policy, and frustration from business and immigrant voices who feel America is sabotaging its own economic and innovative potential. The conversation is thoughtful, sometimes critical, and punctuated by the anxiety of entrepreneurs and pro-immigration advocates.

For listeners:
This episode is a comprehensive guide to the political and business tensions over H1B visas in Trump’s America—from high-level policy debates to ground-level startup dilemmas and the risk of America ceding its innovation edge.

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