Jessica Winter (2:29)

There are sharply differing accounts of why she didn't finish her residency, but she went into what is known as functional medicine, which is more or less holistic or alternative medicine. She co founded a medical technology company called levels, which offers continuous glucose monitoring and other wearable technology.

Noel King (2:47)

With Levels, you get access to things like powerful tools, food logging, macro tracking,

Maha Movement Supporter (2:52)

and even continuous glucose monitors that you

Noel King (2:54)

can use to proactively optimize your health.

Jessica Winter (2:56)

She started up a popular Newsletter and an Instagram account called Dr. Casey's Kitchen with recipes and nutrition advice. And she really got into the game of sponsorships and promotions as an influencer. She would promote things like wellness teas and prenatal vitamins and all kinds of supplements. And she had pretty amazing timing because in 2024 she published a book co written with her brother Kali Means called Good Energy, about ending what they call the chronic disease epidemic. And this book emerged into the world just as the MAHA movement and RFK Jr. S presidential campaign were really gaining momentum and visibility. And pretty soon the mean siblings were appearing on Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson. And all of a sudden she was a Maha superstar.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (3:44)

I honestly think you're going to change the world.

Maha Movement Supporter (3:45)

I mean that. I mean that.

Noel King (3:48)

I read Good Energy because I interviewed her brother, Kallie Means. It's a really genuinely interesting book. Give us some insight into what this book tells us about how we should be living our wives.

Jessica Winter (4:01)

So Good Energy is kind of their manifesto. It's partly a memoir about Casey Means journey out of conventional medicine and into the influencer space. She talks about the death of her mother. It's a diet and nutrition and lifestyle guide. You know, it talks about the dangers of ultra processed foods and the importance of eating organic and keeping your blood sugar steady.

Dr. Casey Means (4:27)

Highly addictive substances are being pushed on every person in the United States from birth. And these substances are causing well over 1 million deaths per year. These substances are ultra processed foods.

Jessica Winter (4:40)

And I would say that it has three main pillars of argument that align perfectly with Maha. The first is that the food and pharmaceutical companies industries are incentivized to make you sick and keep you sick. Number two is most conventional medical interventions do not help you and may harm you.

Dr. Casey Means (5:02)

Patients are being crushed by the devil's bargain between the $6 trillion food industry which wants to make food cheap and addictive, and the $4 trillion healthcare industry which profits off interventions on sick patients and stays silent about the reasons they're getting sick.

Jessica Winter (5:19)

And there's a laundry list of things in the book that they tell you to beware against. You know, antibiotics, chemotherapy drugs, antibiotics, retroviral drugs, beta blockers, on and on and on. And then the number three pillar is that most illnesses can be prevented or treated through diet and lifestyle choices.

Noel King (5:41)

How much of this book is based in sort of scientific evidence?

Jessica Winter (5:46)

As with a lot with Maja, they do have a point now and again about ultra processed foods. And yeah, it's great to buy organic and it's great to cook from scratch and it's great to exercise. But there, there are plenty of people out there who can give you that kind of advice. They take it to extremes in terms of, you know, when I wrote about good energy, I talked about going into my local supermarket and suddenly feeling as though, you know, you're surrounded by enemies or something. Right. I mean, it's box cereal, it's bread in a bag, it's any non organic produce. And so I think another thing to keep in mind is that Casey Means has not trained in this space. She has no formal expertise in this space. I mean, again, she trained in otolaryngology. I think some in Maha would not see that as a disadvantage because she's not coming out of the medical establishment. But at the same time, you know, the advice that they're giving, the fears that they're trying to stoke in people are really extreme and not necessarily helpful, I would say.

Noel King (6:52)

Kasey Means had her Senate nomination hearing last week. What did we learn from that?

Jessica Winter (6:57)

We learned that she is trying to modify her public Persona a little bit and she's trying to present a more moderate, more palatable version of herself. And we've seen this with a lot of nominees for Trump's cabinet. I mean, to take the vaccine's point, there's a very interesting moment in that hearing where she really emphasized that messaging on vaccines has never been part a major part of her platform as an influencer.

Dr. Casey Means (7:28)

Just to be very clear, vaccines, vaccine advocacy has never or any anti vaccine rhetoric has never been a part of my message. I don't mention the word vaccine in my book. This is not a part of my core message. I am not here to complicate the issue on vaccines.

Jessica Winter (7:43)

But at the same time, she won't come out and say that she thinks all children should follow the regular vaccine schedule or anything like that.

Dr. Casey Means (7:52)

I'm supportive of vaccination. I, I do believe that each patient, mother, parent needs to have a conversation with their pediatrician about any medication they're putting in their body.

Jessica Winter (8:04)

Looking at KC Means, I mean, there's a lot of ways that she contrasts with other Surgeon General nominees. I mean, she never finished her residency. She has not had an active medical license for some time now. As I mentioned, she is mainly offered advice in a space where she has no training, she has no background in public health, she has no background in epidemiology. It's funny, a refrain in her answers was, I can't give individual advice. Right. People should have a conversation with their doctor.

Dr. Casey Means (8:34)

I'm not an individual's doctor. Shared clinical decision making with their doctors about specific vaccines. All patients need to have a thorough conversation with their doctor and have true informed consent before taking any medication. Make sure that patients are encouraged to have informed consent with their doctor before getting any medication.

Jessica Winter (8:53)

But, you know, vaccination is something that, you know, we think of as a collective good, that we're not necessarily tailoring that to every individual person. It's not necessarily a bespoke kind of process. Right. And she is auditioning to be a person who can be America's doctor, who can actually issue pretty close to blanket recommendations to people about things like diet, nutrition, vaccinations, chronic illness, and so forth. And so a way that I think she tried to tack to the center and moderate her position was to constantly come back to this subjective place of people should talk to their doctor. But at the same time, a lot of her presence, a lot of her Persona, is to distrust your doctor. I mean, good energy says straight up, not to trust your doctor and do your own research and make the individual decisions that are best for you and your family. So it's a very mixed message, but I think it's a message that she's trying to kind of moderate her image in ways that I don't think were particularly convincing to the set of senators.

Noel King (10:05)

Do you think she's going to be confirmed?

Jessica Winter (10:07)

Assuming all of the Democrats on the committee vote against, which I think is a fair assumption. It's not a guarantee. She only needs one Republican to wobble for it, not to make it out of committee. And I would say that the three wobbly Republicans are Collins, Murkowski, and Cassidy. And all three of them had, you know, cordial but tough questions for her in the hearing. So I'm not sure she. She makes it out of committee. We'll have to see.

Noel King (10:38)

It's now been about a year of Maha people in leading roles in American public health. Do you get the sense that there is more skepticism of the Maha movement among lawmakers now, or. Or do you think we should expect more of them?

Jessica Winter (10:55)

I do think that skepticism toward Maja has become more acceptable, and I think there is more skepticism toward Maha within Maha. Yeah, because I would say that it's extremely difficult for anyone in Maha not to admit that this administration has not gone the way they'd hoped when it came to issues they care deeply about, particularly forever chemicals in soil and water. The EPA has done absolutely the opposite of anything Maha would have wished for since this administration came in. And so I think Maha is really trying to figure itself out right now. And figure out what its place in our politics and culture is. And I don't know that Casey means and her confirmation is necessarily top of mind in that process.

Noel King (12:00)

That was the New Yorker's Jessica Winter. Coming up, an executive order turns the Maha moms against RFK. Support for Today Explained Comes from Quo when you've committed to leveling up your business, it can be surprising how much the basics matter, says Quo. That's why a cleaner, more modern setup can make all the difference. Quo spelled Q U O says they're the modern alternative to run your business communications. Quo says they can work wherever you are right from an app on your computer while letting you keep the same number. That lets you add new numbers, new teammates in minutes. Sync your CRM, rely on seamless routing and call flows as your business grows, Quo says, you can see why they're the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews. That's why more than 90,000 businesses, I'm told, from solo operators to growing teams, rely on Quo to stay connected, professional and consistently reachable. You can make this the season where no opportunity and no customer slips away. You can try quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.comexplained that's quote comexplained quo no missed calls, no missed customers. Support for Today Explained comes from Vanta. If you run a business, perhaps you've noticed a shift. Risk and regulation are increasing and customers want clear proof of security before they will even consider signing with you. Building that trust is essential to closing deals, says Vanna. But it's also complex, costly and time consuming. Vanna says they can automate that process to bring compliance, risk and customer trust together on one AI powered platform. They say they automate the process of achieving and maintaining compliance with over 35 security and privacy frameworks, including SoC2, ISO 2701 and HIPAA. This helps companies get compliant fast and remain compliant, freeing up time. Instead of getting buried in audits and spreadsheets, Vanna says, you get a system that runs behind the scenes, minimizing risk, powering growth. Vanna says that companies such as Ramp and Ryder spend 82% less time on audits with Vanna. Not just faster compliance, more time for your business to grow. You can get started at vanna.com/explain. That's v a n t a.com explained vanna.com explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Shopify. Starting a new business has never been easy, says Shopify. But without the right tools, it can feel almost impossible. Perhaps Shopify can set you up for success. Shopify is a commerce platform used by millions of businesses around the world. They say they can help you tackle important tasks. Inventory, payments, analytics. So much more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. Let Shopify be your commerce expert. With world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond, you can get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today you can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today@shopify.com explained. Go to shopify.com explained what's that? That's shopify.com explained.

Dr. Casey Means (15:32)

This is today Explained

Noel King (15:36)

President Trump issued the executive order on February 18 promoting the national defense by ensuring an adequate supply of elemental phosphorus and glyphosate based herbicides. In short, we need to be making more glyphosate in the U.S. glyphosate is a pesticide and making it here is a national security issue per Trump, because we need it for our food supply. Glyphosate is particularly hated by those in the Maha movement. Glyphosate can cross the blood testes barrier and end up in semen. Oh, weed killer could be in your baby gravy right now. Oatmeal is heavily sprayed with glyphosate these

Jessica Winter (16:12)

days and it's also being found in our rain and our drinking water.

Noel King (16:15)

Lisa Held, reporter at civiliteats the Maha response came fast and furious and it was mostly trained on rfkjr, in part because he's their man in Washington and in part because he's got a long history with pesticides.

Maha Movement Supporter (16:27)

Yeah, yeah. He was an environmental lawyer for a long time and you know, even worked for the nrdc, for instance, a really big environmental organization in this country. He was part of a team of lawyers who brought the first big case against Monsanto, the company that makes glyphosate.

Lisa Held (16:50)

They knew it was getting into our water, into our air, into our food, onto our landscapes where our children play. And yet they were telling people that it was safe as tables at a time when they knew that it could cause cancer.

Maha Movement Supporter (17:05)

That was on behalf of an individual who said that using glyphosate had caused his non Hodgkin's lymphoma. And they won. It was the first case that they won.

Noel King (17:17)

A California jury ordered Monsanto to pay $289 million in damages to Dwayne Lee Johnson, finding the company failed to warn

Maha Movement Supporter (17:26)

Johnson and other consumers of the cancer risk.

Lisa Held (17:29)

Americans should be encouraged by the verdict. It's an emblem that corporations are still subject to our democracy and to our system of justice in this country.

Maha Movement Supporter (17:44)

And then, you know, he also had an organization that he ran for a long time called Children's Health Defense, and they do a lot of work on policy and advocacy on reducing pesticide use and pesticide exposures.

Noel King (17:58)

All right, so in the past, RFK has been critical of pesticides like glyphosate. And now we see him sort of changing his position.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (18:07)

I support President Trump's executive order to bring agricultural chemical production back to the United States and to end our near total reliance on adversarial nations. His executive order protects two pillars of our national strength, our defense readiness and our food supply.

Noel King (18:25)

Possibly the most interesting thing about RFK is his coalition, his Maha coalition. How does the Maha coalition react when they see him responding to President Trump on glyphosate?

Maha Movement Supporter (18:36)

When this executive order was first released, there was a group within the Maha coalition that they were very angry. There's a few kind of prominent Maha supporters like Kelly Ryerson and Vani Hari, who have been speaking out about the executive order and really saying that it goes against the principles of Maha. We shouldn't have have to beg, hope

Dr. Casey Means (19:02)

or pray for food and water that isn't poisoned.

Maha Movement Supporter (19:05)

This country clearly has the money, so deliver it now.

Noel King (19:10)

It cost the government $0 to tell the truth about glyphosate, tell the people the truth about glyphosate, just like artificial dyes and watch the market fix itself.

Maha Movement Supporter (19:21)

They're angry, but they're also kind of, over time, it seems that they are trusting Secretary Kennedy's response, where he's saying, look, we're still working on this, but we need to do, you know, this executive order in the meantime is necessary.

Lisa Held (19:38)

The Pentagon and others said this is an extreme national security vulnerability, that China controls the US Food system. We can't afford to let that happen. But we all know we've got a transition off of glyphosate.

Maha Movement Supporter (19:52)

And I think the interesting thing with the Maha coalition at this moment in time is this executive order is coming at a moment when glyphosate is already a really big issue for them. So there's a Supreme Court case that's going to be heard on April 27. That would give companies like Bayer immunity from future lawsuits related to cancer and other health risks. And they care a lot about that. And so they're already angry that the Trump administration is siding with Bayer in that Supreme Court case. There's another liability shield that is in a draft of the farm bill right now, which they're also fighting. So I think it's kind of part of this bigger picture where pesticide use and pesticide exposure is kind of emerging as the most kind of contentious issue when it comes to the Maha Coalition and their relationship to the Trump administration.

Noel King (20:53)

Within the Maha Coalition, there is a group of women called the. That are. That are sometimes called the Maha Moms. Right, Right. These are people who care a lot about what is going into our bodies. They care a lot about health, and often they will say they care because they are concerned about their children. My understanding is that the Maha Moms in particular were upset about this executive order, and they saw Kennedy's response as kind of betrayal. Could you talk about this, this subgroup of women and how you saw them responding?

Maha Movement Supporter (21:26)

Yeah, I did tune in to a meeting of one of the groups that makes up this Maha Moms Coalition called Moms Across America about a week ago, and what I heard was that they're definitely upset and they care a lot about this, and they're not happy about the executive order. They're not happy about really anything that's happen when it comes to pesticide policy within the Trump administration right now. But they're not kind of abandoning the administration in a wholehearted way because they still really trust Secretary Kennedy. And, you know, there's this kind of thinking around, well, we can't kind of ditch the administration over this, because over here at hhs, Kennedy is doing things that we really care about and we really believe in. And we think that what we see as this progress over here is so valuable that we're going to stand by him. And, you know, there's this kind of understanding within those groups, like among the Maha Moms, that Kennedy has to kind of fight for these things within the administration itself, but they aren't abandoning the administration altogether. And I think that's really because this whole coalition came together around Kennedy and they. They just really care about him and trust him.

Noel King (22:57)

I wonder about the Maha Moms and their level of organization and their level of political influence. Do they hold a lot of power in the Maha movement? And do conservatives look at them and say, okay, this group might be small, but it is mighty, and we need to not lose them, Definitely.

Maha Movement Supporter (23:16)

I think they have real power in this moment. And I think the best example of that is how the EPA has been responding to their criticism. So over the last few months, before this executive order, in response to all different decisions the EPA made to approve new pesticides or reapprove pesticides that they were concerned about, like Dicamba, the EPA has actually invited members of this movement, Maha Moms, into the agency to talk to them. They have. Even when putting out press releases that seem to go directly against the Maha agenda, they have tried to message that it is aligned with Maha in some way. They're trying really hard to kind of appease and speak to and court the Maha moms. And the fact that the agency really feels that. That that's necessary seems to signal that. That they see them as. As having real power.

Noel King (24:19)

There's a larger current in the Maha movement that has always been very interesting. And it is the sense that political administrations doesn't matter whether they're Republican or Democrat, they side with big industry over regular people. And that, they would say, is why we have dyes in our candy and dyes in our cereal. That is why we have plastics in the water. It's because our elected officials are concerned about business. They're not concerned about us. Now, this is something that many in the Maha movement seem to believe that RFK would do something about. RFK is a man of the people versus a man of the corporations. Does this glyphosate executive order and everything that has come after, does that change how people within the movement look at him when it comes particularly to him siding with us versus him siding with business?

Maha Movement Supporter (25:09)

I think they don't see this executive order or these decisions around Glyphosate as his decisions. They see that, for instance, he's pushing companies to move away from food dyes, and they see that as kind of being anti industry and really pushing industry. I think the administration overall is incredibly pro industry. And one of the big promises that the Trump administration has made, made and has kept over the last year is deregulation. And so they have delivered over and over and over again for industry and corporations by deregulating and rolling back rules that were put in place to reduce exposures to pollutants, things that Maha moms and Maha supporters care about. And so there's this kind of what Secretary Kennedy is doing on one side, but then there's what the overall administration is doing, which is very different. And so I think that they see those two things as separate in some way. But I'm not sure how long that discrepancy can kind of be present before you know at least part of the movement or some of the supporters kind of see the two things as being fundamentally at all odds with each other.

Noel King (26:47)

Lisa helt of civilites Today's show was produced by Danielle Hewitt and Dustin DeSoto. It was edited by Jolie Myers, Andrea Lopez Crusado checked the fats, and Patrick Boyd and David Tadashore engineered. I'm Noel King, It's Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Perhaps you want a deeper, more complex understanding of the world around you. That same instinct is worth protecting when you're using AI, says Anthropic. Anthropic, the company behind Claude, committed to their AI. Without ads meaning, what you see won't be shaped by what an advertiser paid for. Claude says. Claude is built to sit with the complicated version of a story, not hand you the tidy one. Try Claude free@Claude AI todayexplained

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (27:55)

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