Make America Measles Again (MAMA)

Summary

Today, Explained: "Make America Measles Again (MAMA)" Summary

Released on March 24, 2025 | Host: Sean Ramisher and Noel King | Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction to the Measles Resurgence

In the latest episode of Today, Explained, hosts Sean Ramisher and Noel King delve into the alarming resurgence of measles in the United States, marking a significant public health concern. The episode, titled "Make America Measles Again (MAMA)," explores the factors contributing to this outbreak, the communities most affected, and the controversial role of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the current Secretary of Health and Human Services.

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2. Scope and Severity of the Outbreak

Sean Ramisher opens the discussion by highlighting the historical context of measles eradication in the U.S.:

Sean Ramisher [00:00]: "We've been here before. The United States officially beat measles in the year 2000."

However, despite this milestone, measles cases have been sporadically rising:

Sean Ramisher [00:20]: "Reported in the US this year has reached a 20-year high."

Mary Kakados, ABC News' health and science reporter, provides a detailed breakdown:

Mary Kakados [02:20]: "In Western Texas, we have around 300 cases confirmed. The majority of those cases are in unvaccinated people and those who have unknown vaccination status."

The outbreak isn't confined to Texas alone, with cases reported in at least 12 other states, including California, Vermont, Oklahoma, New York, Washington, and Kentucky.

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3. Community Impact and Vulnerability

The episode emphasizes the concentration of cases within specific communities, notably the Mennonite community in Western Texas, which exhibits low vaccination rates and high exemption rates:

Mary Kakados [04:34]: "This outbreak has just been spreading quite rapidly because it is affecting a pocket of western Texas that has very low vaccination rates compared to the rest of the state and the country."

The demographic most affected comprises children and teenagers, with over 30 hospitalizations and at least one reported death among unvaccinated school-age children.

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4. Health Consequences of Measles

Mary Kakados outlines the severe health risks associated with measles, contrasting its infectivity with the seasonal flu:

Mary Kakados [06:32]: "One in five people who get measles will be hospitalized. About one in 10 children can develop ear infections... one in 20 children will develop pneumonia... and about one in 1,000 kids will develop encephalitis."

In comparison:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [06:02]: "One person with the flu can infect up to three people."

Sean Ramisher [06:10]: "Measles... can infect almost four times as many people as the flu."

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5. Public Health Response and Challenges

Efforts to contain the outbreak include vaccine clinics and recommendations for additional vaccine doses:

Mary Kakados [07:14]: "Health officials... hosting vaccine clinics... recommending a third, early dose of the vaccine for very young children."

Despite these measures, the rapid spread within vulnerable communities poses significant challenges:

Mary Kakados [08:27]: "It will really remain to be seen what occurs over the next several weeks and months."

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6. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s Controversial Role

A pivotal focus of the episode is Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s leadership as Health and Human Services Secretary amidst his background as a prominent vaccine skeptic:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [04:34]: "We have a high number of unvaccinated. They just don't believe in it... they need to have the freedom to guide indeed their children."

Despite running the anti-vaccine advocacy group Children's Health Defense, Kennedy shows conflicting stances:

Mary Kakados [15:55]: "Kennedy wrote... 'vaccines not only protect individual children from measles, but also contribute to community immunity...'"

Conversely, he propagates misinformation regarding vaccine safety and alternative treatments:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [16:53]: "...vaccines... cause all the illnesses that measles itself cause... measles could be treated with cod liver oil and steroids."

This dichotomy raises concerns about his influence on public health policies and the spreading of disinformation.

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7. Community Perspectives and Misinformation

The Mennonite community's response is a focal point, where personal testimonies reveal skepticism towards vaccines despite witnessing severe cases:

Parent Interview [Notified at 23:57]: "We would absolutely not take the MMR. The measles wasn't that bad... our other children had mild cases, attributed to treatments from a holistic clinic."

Experts counter these claims by emphasizing the statistical likelihood of recovery irrespective of alternative treatments:

Mary Kakados [25:19]: "The likelihood that all of their other kids would have pulled through okay no matter what is pretty high."

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8. Broader Implications and Future Outlook

The episode concludes by pondering the future under Kennedy's leadership, especially concerning emerging health crises like bird flu and potential pandemics:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [25:47]: "Let the disease go through them and identify the birds that survive... let the virus loose and have it infect whoever it would."

This laissez-faire approach mirrors his prior stances during the COVID-19 pandemic, raising alarms about preparedness and effective response strategies.

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9. Conclusion

"Make America Measles Again (MAMA)" serves as a critical examination of the intersection between public health, community beliefs, and political leadership. The resurgence of measles, fueled by vaccine hesitancy and influenced by a high-ranking official's controversial views, underscores the fragile balance in managing infectious diseases within diverse populations. The episode calls listeners to reflect on the importance of informed public health policies and the dangers of disinformation in safeguarding community health.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sean Ramisher [00:00]: "We've been here before. The United States officially beat measles in the year 2000."

• Mary Kakados [02:20]: "In Western Texas, we have around 300 cases confirmed. The majority of those cases are in unvaccinated people and those who have unknown vaccination status."

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [04:34]: "We have a high number of unvaccinated. They just don't believe in it... they need to have the freedom to guide indeed their children."

• Mary Kakados [06:32]: "One in five people who get measles will be hospitalized... one in 1,000 kids will develop encephalitis."

• Mary Kakados [15:55]: "Kennedy wrote... 'vaccines not only protect individual children from measles, but also contribute to community immunity...'"

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those unfamiliar with the original podcast.

Transcript

[Sean Ramisher]

We've been here before. The United States officially beat measles in the year 2000. In the year 2000, but we've had plenty of outbreaks since then. In the year 20002008140 cases 2011220 cases 2014667 cases the number of measles cases.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Reported in the US this year has reached a 20 year high.

[Sean Ramisher]

2019 1,274 cases, the highest number in 2018. And now we've got an outbreak in 2025. But the difference this time Robert fluoride Kennedy Jr is in charge of Health and Human Services and put the meat.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

In my refrigerator and you can do.

[Mary Kakados]

That in New York State.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You can get a bear tag for a roadkill bear.

[Sean Ramisher]

Make America Measles again. Mama on Today Expl Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out Uncertainty, self doubt, stressing about not knowing where to start in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out Word art Sorry Live laugh lovers in knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Mary Kakados]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Sean Ramisher]

Today, explained Sean Ramisher. I'm here with Mary Kakados, who's a health and science reporter for ABC News. Mary, what is going on with the measles in the United States right now?

[Mary Kakados]

So in Western Texas we have around 300 cases confirmed. The majority of those cases are in unvaccinated people and those who have unknown vaccination status. Children and teenagers are making up the majority of cases. So the majority of cases have actually been in those age 17 and under. We have more than 30 people who have been hospitalized and even one death in an unvaccinated school age child.

[Sean Ramisher]

But this is not limited to just Texas though that is where this outbreak is happening.

[Mary Kakados]

No, it is not limited to just Texas, even though that is where the majority of cases are. There have been cases confirmed in nearby New Mexico. Health officials believe there is is a link, but that is still being investigated and there have been cases confirmed in at least 12 other states. CDC data shows U.S. california, Vermont and.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Oklahoma reported new cases of the deadly virus.

[Sean Ramisher]

Reported in Washington state and Kentucky. Three confirmed cases now in Bergen County, New Jersey.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

At least four cases of measles so far in New York.

[Mary Kakados]

It is just about anywhere that you could think north, south, east, west.

[Sean Ramisher]

Okay, and this isn't the first time we've had a measles outbreak in even recent memory. But how big a deal is this one? Cuz it does sound bigger.

[Mary Kakados]

So this is not the first outbreak in recent memory. We have had sporadic outbreaks occur over the last few years. But this outbreak has just been spreading quite rapidly because it is affecting a pocket of western Texas that has very low vaccination rates compared to the the rest of the state and the rest of the country and a very high rate of exemptions, meaning that lots of parents have exempted their kids from receiving at least one vaccine that they need to attend school. So this is making this outbreak much different than some other outbreaks that we've seen in recent years. So this outbreak first began in late January when the first case was confirmed. The majority of people who are are living in that community are of the Mennonite community.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

So we have a high number of unvaccinated. They just don't believe in it. It's just not something that they choose to do. We believe very strongly in the authority of the parents in the home that they need to and should have the freedom to guide indeed their children.

[Mary Kakados]

There's nothing that says that this community can't get vaccinated. But unfortunately anti vax advocates have descended upon this community and have been spreading misinformation about how this vaccine is dangerous or that measles is okay for your child to get and it will create natural immunity against other diseases and is unfortunately putting many people at risk. The vaccine is incredibly safe and effective. There's two doses that are recommended. One dose is 93% effective, two doses are 97% effective. And even if you do happen to get a breakthrough case, it is very, very mild. Measles is not a benign virus and it can cause really severe complications.

[Sean Ramisher]

Mary knows because she spoke to a doctor in her reporting. Measles is one of the most infective viruses known to man. And one person can infect 12 to 18 people. Contrast that with the seasonal flu and we're going through a pretty severe flu season.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

One person with the flu can infect up to three people.

[Sean Ramisher]

And so measles, one of the most infective viruses that we have can infect.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Almost four times as many people as the flu.

[Sean Ramisher]

And just in case any of these dear Mennonites in West Texas are listening right now, could you just remind people what could happen if your kid or if you yourself get the measles?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Sure.

[Mary Kakados]

So one in five people who get measles will be hospitalized. About one in 10 children can develop ear infections, which can lead to permanent hearing loss. One in 20 children will develop pneumonia, which is the leading cause of death in children who get measles. And about one in 1,000 kids will develop encephalitis, which is swelling of the brain, which is, of course, very, very severe and could unfortunately lead to severe neurological complications and unfortunately, even death.

[Sean Ramisher]

Awful. Is there anyone in Texas, in West Texas, in this community reminding people of the grim realities of getting measles, especially among young people?

[Mary Kakados]

Yeah, there have been several doctors across the state and in particularly western Texas, who have been getting the word out, trying to remind parents about the date dangers of measles, why it is such a dangerous disease, the benefits of vaccination. And they have been hosting vaccine clinics, giving people the opportunity to either get their child vaccinated for the first time, have them catch up on doses that they missed, or even adults who never got vaccinated themselves to get that vaccine. And even Texas health officials and the CDC has also recommended this as well. To try to get this outbreak under control, they are recommending a third, third early dose of the vaccine. So for kids between ages 6 months to 11 months to get a vaccine dose and then to get two regularly scheduled doses, the one that you would get at about a year old, and then the one that you would get from ages 4 to 6. And that way, it gives really, really young kids who have, of course, very sensitive immune systems a bit of a boost to protect them until they can get their regularly scheduled doses.

[Sean Ramisher]

Okay, so who's gonna win this battle in West Texas? The vaccine skeptics or the vaccinated?

[Mary Kakados]

Well, that remains to be seen. Hopefully, Texas health officials will be able to get this outbreak under control. Unfortunately, measles does have a bit of an ability to spread like wildfire. These outbreaks can get out of control rather quickly unless they are detected and contained. But it will really remain to be seen what occurs over the next several weeks and months.

[Sean Ramisher]

And as you told us earlier, this has already spread maybe not like wildfire, but certainly like mild fire. At the very least. We got a dozen or so states who's doing something about that.

[Mary Kakados]

So, yeah, CDC health officials have helped on the ground. The majority of responses to measles outbreaks when they occur in states are actually up to local and state health officials, and the CDC just helps with anything that they need. But CDC officials did actually go to Texas. They were on the ground helping out if states needed. But the majority is actually up to state and local health officials to control the spread of outbreaks and kind of request the help of the CDC if it's needed.

[Sean Ramisher]

Mary Kakados, ABC Always be closing. We're heading to Bobby's World when we return on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Quince. Believe it or not, the warm weather is finally coming. I was just outside, the sun was bathing me and it felt foreign and new and familiar all at once. Quince would like to be a part of that experience. They say that this spring and summer you can treat yourself to high quality travel essentials at affordable prices, and Claire White, who works here at Vox, is doing so.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Sean Ramisher]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Sean Ramisher]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Mary Kakados]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

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[Sean Ramisher]

Today, explained Kira Butler, national correspondent with Mother Jones. We got the measles in West Texas. We got the measles in a dozen or so other states. It sounds like a bit of a federal problem. What are we hearing at the federal level?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

So Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is of course a well known vaccine skeptic. Before he became the Health and Human Services Secretary, he ran a group called Children's Health Defense. You have started a group called the Children's Health Defense and this is an anti vaccine advocacy group. It's probably the biggest anti vaccine advocacy group in the United States, if not in the world right now. As I understand it, on their website they are selling what's called onesies. These are little things, clothing for babies. One of them is titled Unfaxed Unafraid. Next one. And it sold for 26 bucks a piece, by the way. Next one is no vax, no problem. So over the last few weeks, as the outbreak has grown, RFK Jr has made some polarizing statements. On the one hand, he had an op ed on Fox News in which he said that vaccinations were an important tool. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Appears.

[Sean Ramisher]

To be changing his tune on certain.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Vaccines after years of casting doubt on their efficacy.

[Mary Kakados]

Kennedy wrote in an opinion piece for.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Fox News on Sunday, quote, vaccines not only protect individual children from measles, but also contribute to community immunity, protecting those who are unable to be vaccinated due to medical reasons. So this was really a departure for him. This statement in favor of vaccines is highly unusual for RFK Jr. Yeah. On the other hand, he's been repeating some misinformation. There are adverse events from the vaccine. It does cause deaths every year. It causes all the illnesses that measles itself cause, encephalitis and blindness, et cetera. He made claims that people who had adequate nutrition, who had good diets, it's almost impossible for you to be killed by an infectious disease in modern times because we have nutrition, because we have access to medicines. He said that measles could be treated with cod liver oil and steroids.

[Mary Kakados]

They're getting very, very good results.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

They report from budesonide, which is a steroid, it's a 30 year old steroid, and clarithromycin and also cod liver oil.

[Mary Kakados]

Which has high concentrations of vitamin A.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

And vitamin D. And he said that having a case of measles could actually prevent you from getting cancer later in life. These are statements that really have no basis in fact.

[Sean Ramisher]

None of them. That a good diet can help, that cod liver oil and steroids can help, and that measles can prevent cancer. He just made all of that up?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, if you asked him for research, he probably could point to a study, but when you really looked at the study, you would realize, you know, that it was a very small sample size or that it was, you know, done on a population that's really different from our population here in the United States, or that he was cherry picking, misinterpreting the results.

[Sean Ramisher]

And is he like invested in cod liver oil or something? Why is he hawking that in particular?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

So the cod liver oil thing is interesting because cod liver oil, I think the idea is that it has vitamin A and vitamin A in very high doses, actually is part of the measles treatment protocol. So for folks who have severe cases of measles, high Doses of vitamin A are recommended because measles depletes the body of its vitamin A stores.

[Sean Ramisher]

Got it. So it's a treatment, but it's not preventative.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

None of this is preventative. There's absolutely no research that any of this could prevent measles.

[Sean Ramisher]

Okay, so a bit of a mixed bag from rfk. On one hand, he's admitting that vaccines can be helpful, showing a little personal growth there, but also doing the vintage routine of here's a bunch of natural homeopathic style solutions that actually are disinformation.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Yeah, that's right. And you know what he didn't say is what I think the rest of the public health community probably wished, he said, which is the only way to prevent serious complications from measles is to not get it in the first place. And the way to do that is to get vaccinated.

[Sean Ramisher]

Why isn't he saying that? Seems so easy.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

It does, but it's not surprising for him, right, because he was at the helm of this kind of premier anti vaccine advocacy group and he is a true believer. The most famous claim is that they cause autism. This link between MMR vaccines and autism has been debunked over and over and over again. Nevertheless, the CDC in recent weeks has announced that they will go back and study that link again. And that, you know, presumably is at the behest of RFK Jr. Not long ago, and you can't even believe these numbers.

[Mary Kakados]

One in 10,000 children had autism. One in 10,000, and now it's one in 36.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

There's something wrong. One in 36. Think of that. So we're going to find out what it is. And there's nobody better than Bobby and all of the people that are working with you.

[Mary Kakados]

You have the best to figure out what is going on.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

But this is a guy who has really devoted the last decade plus of his career to advancing the disproven theory that vaccines are broadly harmful. What he said is that the vaccine is a personal choice. People ought to be able to make that choice for themselves.

[Sean Ramisher]

And he's got a lot of allies on that front, including people in this community who believes that these vaccines are a personal choice, if not straight up harmful.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Yes, that's correct. Some members of the Mennonite community choose not to vaccinate. Others do vaccinate. It's kind of a personal choice within that community. But it's similar to some other outbreaks of measles that we've seen, most notably in the Orthodox Jewish community in New York. This is Another kind of insular, relatively siloed community. And these communities can be especially vulnerable to misinformation, disinformation that's promoting, promoted by anti vaccine advocacy groups.

[Sean Ramisher]

Now that these communities kind of have an ally at the literal top of Health and Human Services. Do we know if anti vax or vaccine skepticism is increasing in the United States at this point, or is it still too early to tell?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

We have pretty robust polling data that shows that since COVID anti vaccine beliefs have increased. And we also have the beginnings of what looks like, frankly, a really scary downward trend in vaccination rates just over the last few years since the pandemic vaccination rates of, you know, not of COVID vaccines, but of routine childhood vaccinations like the one that prevents measles have been declining. We should also note that Children's Health Defense has been working on the ground in West Texas near the heart of the outbreak. They set up an online fundraiser in coordination with Mennonite historian and activist down there. And the online fundraiser was to raise money to distribute these unproven treatments, that's cod liver oil, vitamin C and budesonide, the steroid, to families that are affected by the measles outbreak. And the person who is distributing these is Dr. Ben Edwards of a clinic called Veritas Wellness. It's kind of a holistic clinic and it's in Lubbock, Texas. Everyone used to get measles. The body's designed to kill measles, vitamin A and vitamin C. Studies have been published showing it improves the outcomes in measles. We don't need to be fearful of measles. We need to be informed. So what you have is folks from Children's Health Defense, RFK Jr. S group that he used to run, the anti vaccine group, working with this holistic clinic to distribute these unproven remedies to families down there. Children's Health Defense actually sent two staffers down to the heart of the outbreak and they sat down with the parents of the child who died and did a video interview that Children's Health Defense then aired on their site. How many children do you have? We have four now. Four children. And all of the children got measles, correct? Yes. So who got measles? Kaylee, the one that passed away. And how old is she? She's six. It's a really harrowing interview. And in the interview, you know, the parents say exactly what happened. You know, the kid got really sick, went to the hospital and eventually passed away. And then the parents say if they had the choice to make. Again, they still would not vaccinate their kids.

[Sean Ramisher]

Wow.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Do you still feel the same way about the MMR vaccine versus measles and the proper treatment with Dr. Ben Edwards? Yes, absolutely. We would absolutely not take the mmr. Like, the measles wasn't that bad. They got over it pretty quickly, and Dr. Edwards was there for us, so it was amazing. Yeah, he was great. And the reason for that is that they said that their other four children had mild cases, and they attributed that to the fact that their kids got treatments from this holistic clinic. The cod liver oil, vitamin C, inhaled steroids. And so your other children that got measles, how did they do? Very good. Yeah. Dr. Ben came helping us, and he gave them treatments or like, yeah, some medicine. And they had a really good, quick recovery. Like, when their measles started to go away, they got better. Like, really careful. But if you look at the statistics, that's sort of what you would expect. Whether or not they received treatment. You know, measles can be really serious, but the likelihood that all of their other kids would have pulled through okay no matter what is pretty high.

[Sean Ramisher]

This measles situation in West Texas with this Mennonite community feels like an early test of. Of RFK's leadership. This outsider now being not only on the inside, but literally in charge. What does it tell us about what his objectives are and what his leadership might look like as we approach other epidemics? And who knows, maybe a pandemic.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Right. Well, unfortunately, the measles response is not the only example of leadership in an outbreak situation that we have so far. We also have bird flu, and he has suggested on bird flu that a way to deal with it would be to just let it run through the flocks. Just let it kind of let it go and burn itself out. You should let the disease go through them and identify the birds that survive, which are the birds that probably have a genetic inclination for immunity. And those should be the birds that we breed, like the wild population, you know, this was a strategy that was also promoted during COVID by folks who were against mask mandates, you know, against businesses being closed and things like that. They wanted to just sort of let the virus loose and have it infect whoever it would. There are sort of two ways to think about why it's important, what RFK Jr thinks. There's his official capacity as the Health and Human Services secretary. And in that role, you know, he can make policies. He can influence what the CDC does. He, you know, may even be able to influence what the state level response does. But there's something that I think is arguably even more important, which is his opinions. As somebody who is now seen as a public health authority, this is a guy who comes from the anti vaccine advocacy world, who's now being given a platform would be, to put it mildly, this Maha Make America Healthy Again movement is ascendant. His views have resonated with a whole lot of people. It's arguable that his endorsement of Trump helped sway the election in Trump's favor. So this is a guy whose opinions, I would say, are taken very seriously by a lot of Americans.

[Sean Ramisher]

Kyrabutler Mother Jones.com thank you Mother Jones. Abhishai Artsy produced today's show. Amina Al Saadi edited Andrea Christen's daughter and Patrick Boyd mixed. Laura Bullard Check the facts. This is Today explained.