JQ (1:44)

still paying that off. I didn't know what a credit score was. I didn't know what my credit report was. I had no idea what it would affect in the future. And that credit card ended up in collection.

Jon Glen Hill (1:54)

I landed up having around $24,000 in

JQ (1:59)

credit card debt within two years of

Jon Glen Hill (2:02)

being in grad school and it has ruined my life. I am now donating my eggs to be able to pay off that debt. I'm Jacqueline Hill. It's Explain it to me from vox. And this week how did we get in so much debt? And is there a way to work the cards instead of the cards working us? For a lot of people, getting your first credit card is a rite of passage into real adulthood. When angel Sevilla was 18, he walked into the credit union where he had an account and asked about getting a

JQ (2:37)

card and they essentially just handed Me one, it took no time at all. The woman is really friendly and she brings me these forms and I sign away my life and not knowing what I'm signing. And it really only took about I think 15 minutes. And I walked out with a credit card and I felt empowered, like wow, that was easy. Being an adult is great.

Jon Glen Hill (2:58)

Do you remember what your credit limit was? What it Was for your first card?

JQ (3:01)

The first card was $1,500. It felt like I could put all of the little expenses on there. All of the two and three dollar, you know, McDonald runs swipe. Or coffee shop runs swipe. Everything that adds up really quickly that you don't realize. I was like, oh, we can easily just throw that on the credit card and I'll pay it next month.

Sean Venatta (3:23)

Woo hoo.

JQ (3:24)

Swipe. I was working at a coffee shop at the time. I, I mean I was making I think 8 bucks an hour. I later got a raise for 10 bucks an hour and this was 2005. My rent was $450. So let's stop and marvel at that for a second. So I was doing fine for a single person, but I wasn't bringing any type of extra income in and I definitely hadn't learned how to save yet either. So I'd buy myself lunch every day. Swipe. And I'd treat my friend to coffee like no, I've got this one. Swipe.

Sean Venatta (3:56)

Swipe.

JQ (3:57)

Later on in the year when Christmas time came around, I was like, oh, I've got Christmas gifts for everybody. Swipe, swipe, swipe. Stuff like that. Where I thought I was just being this really great generous person and I was, but I was just digging myself into a hole.

Sean Venatta (4:09)

Woohoo.

JQ (4:09)

Swipe. I was getting bills and I'm paying the bills, minimum balance, thinking that I'm going to be able to make a fatter payment later on down the line. And some weeks I'd have overtime and I'd have a little extra, but it was slowly, slowly creeping up higher and higher above my head.

Jon Glen Hill (4:29)

When were you like, wait, this isn't just a thing that I can do.

JQ (4:34)

So I was reaching the higher end of my credit limit and I needed more because I wasn't able to pay it off. And I had luckily seen like a newscast where they were talking about credit cards and they're like, you can easily call them and ask for more. So I did that and they gave me more.

Jon Glen Hill (4:54)

Yeah. How deep did you get into debt?

JQ (4:56)

So about $3,500, something like that. Which at this time I'm like 20 years old, and that's an unattainable mountain that I can't summit. I was compartmentalizing the feeling of being overwhelmed by my debt and just shoving it away. And I had started college at the time, so for those four years, I just didn't even think about it. Now I've signed up for all these student loans, so I've got an additional load of debt. I'm like, you know what? Just put it all in the back of your mind. Someday you'll be a millionaire and you'll pay it all off. I get a wake up call when I try to apply for an apartment, and I am denied, which was super confusing. I was like, what happened?

Sean Venatta (5:43)

What's wrong?

JQ (5:44)

And I was told that the reason was because my credit score was too low. I'll be transparent. It was 490.

Jon Glen Hill (5:52)

Ooh. Okay.

JQ (5:53)

this point, I'm like, oh, my God. If they're denying me for this apartment, they're going to deny me at the next one that I apply for. And so I ended up having to move in with a boyfriend at the time who I had not been with that long. So I got put in the situation that I didn't really want to be in because I needed a place to live. I'm working at a restaurant, and there's one of my coworkers who's a real estate agent, and I see him just slinging all these homes, and I'm like, well, I want a home someday. And now, knowing that my credit is bad enough where I can't even get an apartment, I'm. How do I repair this situation? He actually put me in contact with a loan officer who was great. And she sat me down, she printed out my credit report, and she, like, used a highlighter line by line and was like, what are these? Why are these here? Can you pay some of these off? And it will help increase your score. And there's a bunch of, like, $15 charges from, like, the leftover that my insurance didn't cover for therapy sessions for two years.

Jon Glen Hill (6:58)

Oh, wow.

JQ (6:59)

They were mailing the wrong address. She's like, can you pay these off? So I start with those. I start with an old Verizon bill that had gone to collections because the account had closed and I didn't pay it off. So that's kind of how I began knocking things off and chipping things off of the list. I was also advised to open a secure card, which is the type of credit card where you put forward your own money into an account that pulls up on Your credit report as if it was the bank's money. And it looks like you're being given a loan, a credit card, but it's your own cash and it helps build your credit. So I kept that secure card for a few years, maybe like two years. And after that time I think I was up to the five sixties. Okay, so we're making progress.

Jon Glen Hill (7:43)

Yeah. And I know like when you're paying off debt, a lot of it comes down to sacrifice. Are there changes that you made in like your spending habits or you're like, okay, I can't do this thing anymore.

JQ (7:53)

Well, I learned that all of the little expenses, the 5 and 10 and $15 expenses, add up very quickly. So those kind of took a cutback. Not as many McDonald's runs, not as many lunches bought while at work. Maybe pack my own lunch and take it to work. And then less Christmas gifts for everyone. I have a huge family, JQ. I have 12 siblings.

Jon Glen Hill (8:16)

Woo. Yeah. You were making some cards. We're gonna make some cards this year.

JQ (8:20)

Yes. Handmade gifts. I wasn't buying new clothing. I wore the same clothing for like six years. And my friends dubbed me having the worst style of the entire group. But I needed to cut back on these things so that I could have money to start making payments toward all of the items that were needing attention.

Jon Glen Hill (8:41)

How's your financial situation now?

JQ (8:43)

Yeah, it's way better now. I was able to qualify for my house. I had a credit score of 698 when, when we closed, which was in April of 2020.

Jon Glen Hill (8:58)

Oh, that's awesome.

JQ (8:59)

Yep. And since then I think the highest it's been, you know, it fluctuates but the highest it's been has been like 760.

Jon Glen Hill (9:05)

Okay, that's good. That's like you went from wow, you've,

JQ (9:09)

you turned it started from the bottom. Now we're here.

Sean Venatta (9:12)

Yes.

Jon Glen Hill (9:13)

Oh my gosh. Do you still use credit cards or have you sworn them off?

JQ (9:17)

I have three credit cards currently. I really only ever use one of them and I keep that balance low.

Jon Glen Hill (9:27)

How do you feel about the idea of giving 18 year olds credit cards?

JQ (9:33)

If you're lucky enough to have parents that will set you up for success and give you that knowledge so that you know what to do when you get it, that's great. But maybe the people handing out the credit cards should find out if you have that knowledge first before just giving you free reign to dig yourself a hole that's going to affect you in the future.

Jon Glen Hill (9:54)

So if so many of us find ourselves in this hole. Why is the system set up like this? That's next. Support for Explain it to Me comes from Shopify. Every worthwhile journey starts with a handful of what ifs, but one day you'll be able to look back and realize that all those what ifs were small steps toward turning your dream into a thriving business. Shopify says they can help you get there. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and according to Shopify data, they power 10% of all E commerce in the US. You can start off with your own design studio and choose from hundreds of ready to use templates to make a beautiful store online. You can make it an efficient, well oiled, machine with help from AI tools. And they say they can help you with writing product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. You can connect with customers through an easy to run marketing campaign built through Shopify. And if you just need some advice, Shopify says they offer award winning 247 customer support. You can turn those what ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com exclusive. Explain it go to shopify.com explain it that's shopify.com explain it support for the show comes from Rocket Money have you ever felt pretty good about your finances only to realize you've been paying for a monthly subscription you completely forgot about and that it's quietly cost you a stomach turning amount of money? Rocket Money wants to make sure your stomach turns no more. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You can use the app to consolidate your checking, savings, loans and investments all into a single dashboard to give you a clear view of your financial picture. Set budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports, and receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds and low balances. You can use automated savings to help you grow toward goals. With adjustable amounts and frequency set it and forget it approach, you can let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. You can join@rocketmoney.com explainit that's rocketmoney.com explain it rocketmoney.com explainit. I'm jq, this is Explain it to Me and we're talking credit card debt and so is President Donald Trump.

Sean Venatta (12:40)

I'm asking Congress to cap credit card interest rates at 10% for one year

Jon Glen Hill (12:47)

and it turns out the cap is one of the few Things trump Bernie Sanders and Josh Hawley can all agree on. You know who's not into it? Banks. So how did credit card interest rates end up being so high in the first place? That's a question for Sean Venatta.

Sean Venatta (13:06)

I teach financial history at the University of Glasgow, and I'm the author of a book called Plastic Capitalism, which is a history of the credit card industry in the United States.

Jon Glen Hill (13:16)

Where does that story start?

Sean Venatta (13:18)

So it really starts in department stores. So you can think about big city department stores, something like Macy's in downtown New York. And it really starts at the turn of the 20th century. So these are huge kind of palaces of consumption. They're in part marketing themselves on the availability of credit.

JQ (13:38)

Why pay cash?

Narrator/Ad Voice (13:40)

This popular store affords you an opportunity

JQ (13:42)

to make your selection of its immense stock of wearing apparel at any time you wish and to take advantage of our liberal credit system.

Sean Venatta (13:50)

Paying the account by the week or month.

JQ (13:53)

Ad for The National Outfitting Company, 1910.

Sean Venatta (13:57)

You initially get something called, like a credit token. They eventually are cards that have your name, your account number, your address embossed on them. And this connects with a kind of mechanical billing system that then creates your bill that goes to your house. Department stores after World War II, begin to expand outside of the central cities. They begin to compete with small local merchants. The modern department store with a great variety of merchandise from all over the world. One of a million bargains at Albert's during their anniversary sale. And so what begins to happen in the 1950s and then the 1960s is banks get into the credit card market. And they do so because they're making loans, they're dealing with businesses, and in this case, small retailers who feel the competition from the department stores that can offer credit. And what the banks do is they go around to the small stores and say, listen, we can pull you all together into a centralized credit plan, and then you'll be able to offer credit that competes with department stores. The BankAmericard will soon be coming to Southern Ohio as another service of the Citizens national bank of Ironton. At the same time, there's the development of what are called travel and entertainment cards. So you have business executives who need to wine and dine clients who are traveling all the time. For them, it's cards like Diners Club and American Express. Wherever business takes you, Diners Club can help.

JQ (15:21)

American Express. It's the only credit card you really need for travel and entertainment, which are

Sean Venatta (15:26)

really built on enabling you to more easily manage your expense account, to entertain clients, to impress people that you have, you know, a gold American express card swipe. In the 1950s and 1960s, banks are increasingly looking to consumers as a new source of making loans, so making home mortgages or auto loans. But if you're the biggest bank in Chicago and all of the affluent customers are moving out to the suburbs, you have a problem. Banks under state laws in some states couldn't build more than one branch. So all the biggest banks are built in the city center where the businesses are. And so banks like continental Illinois, like the first national bank of Chicago, all begin to see credit cards as a way to attract these affluent customers, to get them to continue to do their banking with central city banks. And so it's really about kind of like suburbanization. It's about white flight out of cities. That is part of what's driving banks into the credit card market.

Jon Glen Hill (16:30)

In the 1960s, you know, at the moment when credit cards came out, were there any rules around the types of interest that could be charged?

Sean Venatta (16:38)

In the 1960s, when a lot of banks really get into the market, one of the reasons why banks find credit cards attractive is because it's a new technology. It's not regulated. Banks were charging very high rates on credit cards. Consumers would tend to pay between 1 1/2 and 2% a month. And, you know, like, people are not very good at math. So that just. That seems cheap, right?

Narrator/Ad Voice (17:02)

2%.

Sean Venatta (17:02)

That's great. What happened is, in 1968, Congress enacted something called the truth in lending act, which says you have to present interest rates as a simple annual rate.

JQ (17:14)

It is the purpose of this title to assure a meaningful disclosure of credit terms so that the consumer will be able to compare more readily the various credit terms available to him and avoid the uninformed use of credit.

Sean Venatta (17:28)

And so all of a sudden, then people are seeing, oh, I'm being charged 18% or 24%. And that is a huge shock. And so what happens is the states tend to limit rates to between 15 and 18%. The rules in each state are kind of different and kind of complicated. And so as banks are developing their sort of credit card networks, they begin to mail cards across state lines. And there's a big fight centered around a bank called the first national bank of Omaha, which is still a going bank in Omaha, Nebraska. But the First national bank of Omaha begins mailing cards into Iowa, and they're mailing cards into Minnesota. And the interest rates in Nebraska are not especially high, but they're a little bit higher than what's allowed in Iowa and what's allowed in Minnesota. But from, you know, a consumer's perspective, if you live in Iowa and you only ever use your card in Iowa, why would you expect that Nebraska interest rates are what would apply to you? And the state attorney generals and individual consumers begin to sue the First national bank of Omaha, saying that they're charging too much. And so this kind of creates a whole slew of legal cases that end up in the Supreme Court.

JQ (18:43)

Oh yay. Oh yea. Oh yay.

Sean Venatta (18:45)

First of Omaha claims, our main office is in Omaha, Nebraska. We can charge the Nebraska rate and go anywhere in the country and charge that rate because we're located in Nebraska. The Supreme Court says, well, you know, the law is pretty clear.

JQ (19:01)

The Omaha bank, for the purposes of this statute, was located in Nebraska, therefore authorized to charge the Nebraska 18% rate.

Sean Venatta (19:12)

The bank is in Nebraska, so the transactions are in Nebraska. And so Nebraska law applies.

Jon Glen Hill (19:18)

So the Supreme Court rules that it's where a bank is based that all of this is factored on, not where the customer is.

Sean Venatta (19:25)

That's right. A bank can then locate itself in whichever state has the most favorable regulations and then solicit cardholders across the country. South Dakota didn't have any restrictions on credit card interest rates. Citibank relocates to South Dakota and then is able to charge whatever interest rate they want. Delaware enacts a law that enables the same thing. So most big banks actually move their credit card operations to Delaware. And that in turn leads to things that we recognize where it's really hard to get a card with a decent interest rate, and banks have the freedom to change those rates as they will.

Jon Glen Hill (20:03)

I'm curious. When I don't pay my credit card in full and I got to pay that interest, where does that interest go? What's it spent on?

Sean Venatta (20:13)

It goes to the banks. So the first thing is that credit card lending is consistently one of the highest profit areas for banks. And you see that banks that specialize in credit cards make much more money than banks that don't. So part of it is just like profits to stockholders. And then there's all sorts of things like credit card points, which help. You know, the most affluent people just get further rewards, right, for spending money they were all ready going to spend. A lot of it goes to advertising. So a lot of the interest that you're paying as a consumer just goes back into a system that advertises to you again, the credit cards that you're using to go into debt. Right? So there's this kind of circuity to it where you are paying for advertising to encourage you to do the thing that you probably don't want to do. But the banks would say if people who have lower credit scores, if we're going to grant them credit, they're riskier. And for the most people to have access to credit, we need to charge them higher rates. What you see if you look at U.S. history over the last 70, 80 years is the economy runs on household borrowing, right? Mortgages, car loans, credit cards, now buy now, pay later. You see that household debt goes up and up and up and up. You add student loans into that mix and people feel, you know, they feel that precarity, they feel that risk, they feel the weight of all of that debt. But it's the most affluent, the people who have access to the airport lounges, who have the high points cards, who get all the benefits and the rest of us pay all the costs.

Jon Glen Hill (22:01)

There are some benefits rest of us can access if we know how to play the game. That's next.

Narrator/Ad Voice (22:15)

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Sarah Rathner (23:51)

Support for teexplained comes from Anthropic, the team behind Clawed. Perhaps you want to understand what's going on, not just hear a headline. Claude works that way. It digs into the messy parts of a question and follows the threads. And Anthropic has committed to keeping it ad free, which means your chats with Claude will not be shaped by what an advertiser paid for. See why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner and try Claude free Claude.com todayexplained.

Jon Glen Hill (24:25)

It's explained it to me. I'm J.Q. so if you have a credit card, interest rates are just gonna be a fact of life. And you gotta build a credit score if you wanna get a loan for a car or to qualify for that dream apartment. So how can you make that little piece of plastic work in your favor?

Sarah Rathner (24:42)

I think of credit card rewards as a way to earn a little bit back for every dollar you spend.

Jon Glen Hill (24:50)

Sarah Rathner is a credit card expert at NerdWallet.

Sarah Rathner (24:53)

2018 was the year where I went to Australia, New Zealand, and Japan all in one year.

Jon Glen Hill (24:59)

Oh, that's cool.

Sarah Rathner (25:01)

And that was all on points and miles. So my honeymoon to Hawaii was done mostly on points. At my peak, my husband and I were taking international trips around every nine months or so.

Jon Glen Hill (25:11)

Ooh, okay. All right, that does sound nice. I probably need to learn how to utilize my credit card points. Give me a rundown on the types of things you can earn using a credit card.

Sarah Rathner (25:23)

So typically you can earn cash back, which is basically what it sounds like. It's cash back in your bank account or cash off of your next credit card bill. So that is pretty straightforward.

JQ (25:35)

If you have a credit card that offers 5% cash back, for example, that just means for every 100 you spend using that credit card, you'll get $5 worth of points. And with those points, you can literally get $5 taken off of your stuff statement. So you pay less on your credit card.

Sarah Rathner (25:48)

This cash back is generally paid annually,

Sean Venatta (25:50)

but some cards may pay cash back on a monthly basis.

Sarah Rathner (25:53)

Travel rewards are a little bit more nuanced. Typically, you earn these rewards and then you can redeem them toward travel expenses in different ways. So if you had like an airline or hotel credit card that has like the the brand or the airline on the card for those cards, you would redeem for plane tickets, things like that, or you would redeem for hotel stays or room upgrades. So there are lots of different ways you could redeem these types of points.

Jon Glen Hill (26:24)

So if I want to maximize my credit card rewards. What's your advice to do that?

Sarah Rathner (26:30)

So it depends on how much complexity you're willing to handle when it comes to your credit card. At the baseline, using a card that earns, say, 2% cash back everywhere you use the card is a great way to begin earning rewards in a way that for many people is the most sustainable because it's the most simple way to earn rewards. But you can also maximize this by having multiple credit cards. It doesn't have to be 20 credit cards at once, but even two or three different cards earn different rewards rates on different, what we call spending categories. And that could be broad categories like gas, groceries, restaurants, travel. Sometimes you might pick a card that earns the exact same rewards rate everywhere you use it. And that's the simplest thing. And those make a great foundational card. And then you could add on to that with cards that earn maybe 3%, 4% or more in these very specific categories.

Jon Glen Hill (27:24)

Right now, this card gets you eight times on dining.

Narrator/Ad Voice (27:26)

This one will get you 3% cash

Jon Glen Hill (27:27)

back at gas stations. But you also get some great rewards,

Narrator/Ad Voice (27:30)

such as 6% cash back at US

JQ (27:32)

supermarkets and also 3% cashback on transit.

Sarah Rathner (27:36)

So really, the key is finding the card, or cards, plural, that match where your money is going so you can earn the most possible every time you use any credit card.

Jon Glen Hill (27:47)

What about for people who it's like, ooh, I got this credit card debt. Like, what do I do? Should. Is this a game they should be playing? Or is it like, worry about that once we have some other things under control?

Sarah Rathner (27:57)

I'm going to say this very clearly. If you have credit card debt, don't play the credit card points game, at least not right now, because the amount of interest you're paying on your credit card debt is going to wipe out the value of any rewards you would earn in as little as a few months?

Jon Glen Hill (28:13)

One thing I do like to use points for is travel. You know, if there's an emergency family trip, I can go ahead and use those points. Or, you know, when my friends have destination weddings, my first thing I'm like, all right, I'll book this flight to Mexico. Using points, we had listeners call in about points for travel as well.

JQ (28:35)

Hi, I'm calling about the credit card podcast coming up. Me and my wife ended up using it for our wedding, where you spend everything you knew exactly you're going to on the credit card, pay it back immediately, and all those points afterwards help pay for the honeymoon, paid for flights to Greece from the West Coast. Yeah, it was pretty incredible.

Jon Glen Hill (28:53)

If travel is the main thing I want to use those points for, what is the best way to go about getting them.

Sarah Rathner (29:00)

For anybody that's relatively new to this, I like to recommend that they have a specific trip in mind. So if you know where you're going to go in six months, a year, and you also know what airline you're probably going to fly, where you're probably going to stay, whether or not you'd need a rental car, you can begin to build your travel itinerary and then match credit cards accordingly. So maybe a specific airline card has a good signup bonus. A hotel card could get you, you know, enough points to stay for a couple of nights in a specific city. Maybe there are free night awards you could tack onto that. If you're a little bit more advanced at this, then you can treat your travel rewards points almost like a travel savings account where you have points and miles saved up with a couple of different loyalty programs that makes it possible to take these last minute trips without having to go into debt.

Jon Glen Hill (29:55)

Okay, so you have your card, you start gathering these points. Is it better to save them up or should you just go ahead and use them?

Sarah Rathner (30:04)

Spend your points frequently like, you know, once you've amassed an amount of points that you need to book a trip. Because point values can change over time, sometimes rewards programs will change their terms and conditions, making it so that the points that you have can no longer be used in specific ways or their values are different. So you want to save up enough for your dream trip, but don't hold onto them indefinitely.

Jon Glen Hill (30:35)

I'm curious, how many cards do you have? Like, how do you keep it all together?

Sarah Rathner (30:41)

Oh my God. I honestly don't know. I probably have, I would say anywhere between like 5 to 10 open cards right now. If it's a card I don't use very often. Oftentimes I wait for the the annual fee to get posted to my account and then I decide do I want to keep this card or not? And that's sort of my trigger for getting a new card. Or, you know, do I pay the fee and keep holding the card open or do I downgrade the card? Do I close the card?

Jon Glen Hill (31:13)

That's it for this week. If you like this podcast and want to help support it, you can do that by becoming a Vox member. You'll get to listen to this and other Vox shows with zero count em zero ads. Go to Vox.com members to learn more. We're working on an episode about spring cleaning and minimalism Is there something that you just can't get rid of? What is it and why do you hold onto it? Or can you just toss things out and not feel a thing? Tell us Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545 or email askvox.com this episode was produced by Peter Balladon Rosen. It was edited by Avishai Artsy and Ginny Lawton, fact checking by Melissa Hirsch and engineering by Patrick Boyd. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. I'm your host, Jon Glen Hill. Thank you so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.

JQ (32:19)

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Narrator/Ad Voice (32:44)

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Sean Venatta (32:45)

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JQ (32:46)

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