Mr. Project 2025

Summary

Today, Explained: Mr. Project 2025 – Detailed Summary

Episode: Mr. Project 2025
Release Date: February 18, 2025
Hosts: Sean Rameswaram and Noel King
Speaker: Simon Rabinovich, US Economics Editor with The Economist

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Introduction

In the February 18, 2025 episode of Today, Explained, hosts Sean Rameswaram and Noel King delve into the intricate political maneuvers shaping the current U.S. administration. The focal point of the discussion revolves around Russell Vought’s influential role, his ambitious Project 2025, and the broader implications for American governance.

Russell Vought: The Power Behind the Throne

Nomination and Confirmation

The episode opens with Noel King recounting the contentious confirmation hearings for President Trump’s cabinet picks. Democratic senators scrutinized Russell Vought's statements and actions, questioning his credibility. For instance, at [00:11], Vought was challenged:
Russell Vought: “Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon?”
Noel King: “[Vought] probably did say that on things they'd allegedly done.”

Despite the controversy, Vought's nomination was swiftly confirmed by the Republican-majority Senate. As King notes at [00:41], Vought now leads the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), where his effectiveness contrasts with his low-key persona:
Noel King: “He’s short on razzle dazzle, but he’s been very, very, very effective so far.”

Influence and Leadership

Simon Rabinovich highlights Vought’s outsized influence within the administration. Unlike more flamboyant figures like Elon Musk, Vought operates behind the scenes with significant impact. At [02:26], Rabinovich explains:
Rabinovich: “Russ Vote, he's not outsized in terms of his personality, but I think he is outsized in terms of his influence. He was the architect of a lot of the chaos and disruption that we've seen in the last few weeks.”

Project 2025: Blueprint for Government Overhaul

Origins and Objectives

Project 2025 emerges as Vought's comprehensive plan to reshape the federal government. Rabinovich details its inception, noting Vought's transition from fiscal conservatism to a MAGA-aligned ideology:
Rabinovich: “Project 2025... is very much a blueprint for radically changing the executive branch to prioritize presidential power over bureaucratic processes.”

Key Components

1. Shrinking the Civil Service: Vought aims to reduce the size of the federal workforce, streamline operations, and enforce stricter compliance with presidential directives.
   Russell Vought at [07:47]: “We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning.”

2. Enhanced Presidential Power: Through mechanisms like impoundment control, Vought seeks to give the President greater authority over federal spending, challenging longstanding checks and balances.
   Russell Vought at [12:20]: “The president ran on the notion that the Impoundment Control Act is unconstitutional. I agree with that.”

3. Christian Nationalism: Vought integrates his religious beliefs into governance, advocating for policies that reflect Christian values.
   Vought at [05:02]: “Nationalism is not just patriotic love for one's country, but a commitment to prioritize the needs and interests of one's own country over others.”

Implementation and Challenges

Vought's strategies, while bold, face significant legal and political hurdles. His efforts to reconstruct the OMB and embed Project 2025 into government policy are met with resistance from both the judiciary and opposing political factions. Rabinovich acknowledges the anticipated confrontations:
Rabinovich at [21:39]: “He wants the courts to ultimately be the jurisdiction that determines whether or not his interpretation of the law is the correct one.”

Interplay with Key Political Figures

Donald Trump

Vought views former President Trump as an essential ally, leveraging Trump's influence to advance his agenda. Despite Trump’s denials regarding Project 2025's association with his administration, Vought continues to align closely with Trumpian policies.
Russell Vought at [10:36]: “He had the most pro-life record ever. I've never seen him take to stand in the way of a pro-life initiative that actually was real.”

J.D. Vance and Elon Musk

Vought navigates a complex relationship with Vice President J.D. Vance and Elon Musk, both of whom wield significant power in different capacities. While Vance focuses on leveraging federal power for conservative aims, Musk advocates for reducing governmental influence. Rabinovich notes Vought's ability to align with their objectives when they intersect with his own:
Rabinovich at [23:25]: “He shares bits and pieces with all of them... he thinks the bigger vision is a much stronger White House.”

Legal and Political Implications

Vought anticipates extensive legal battles as his reforms challenge existing constitutional frameworks. His strategy involves pushing policies through executive orders and expecting judicial review to ultimately legitimize his interpretations.
Russell Vought at [21:51]: “We're going to need to bring that back.”

Rabinovich expresses skepticism about the constitutional validity of Vought’s proposals but acknowledges the uncertainty in judicial outcomes:
Rabinovich at [22:46]: “It's not a slam dunk.”

Future Outlook

The episode concludes with concerns about the sustainability and reversibility of Vought’s initiatives should a Democratic president assume office. Vought’s strategy emphasizes long-term structural changes aimed at diminishing the federal bureaucracy’s influence, potentially making it challenging for future administrations to undo his reforms fully.
Rabinovich at [25:30]: “He believes that his role is not just to do something that's a corrective for the last four years, but to do something that's a corrective for the last century.”

Conclusion

Russell Vought's Project 2025 represents a significant push towards redefining executive power and restructuring the federal government in line with Christian nationalist principles. While his initiatives promise a more streamlined and president-centric administration, they also pose profound challenges to established checks and balances, legal precedents, and the overall fabric of American governance. As the administration progresses, the interplay between Vought, Trump, and other key figures will continue to shape the nation's political landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Russell Vought on Impoundment Control (12:20):
  “The president ran on the notion that the Impoundment Control Act is unconstitutional. I agree with that.”

• Vought on Christian Nationalism (05:02):
  “Nationalism is not just patriotic love for one's country, but a commitment to prioritize the needs and interests of one's own country over others.”

• Vought on Bureaucratic Reform (07:47):
  “We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning.”

• Rabinovich on Vought’s Influence (03:18):
  “Russ Vote really is sort of the power behind the throne.”

• Rabinovich on Legal Challenges (22:46):
  “It's not a slam dunk.”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the Today, Explained episode on Russell Vought and Project 2025, providing a clear understanding for listeners unfamiliar with the original podcast.

Transcript

[Noel King]

During confirmation hearings, Democratic senators pushed President Trump's more controversial cabinet picks on things they'd allegedly said.

[Russell Vought]

Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon?

[Noel King]

I probably did say that on things they'd allegedly done.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Another time, a CVA staffer stated that you passed out in the back of a party bus. Is that true or false?

[Noel King]

Anonymous Smears but for one nominee, Russell Vote Democrats took the step of staging a 30 hour protest, calling him Donald.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Trump's most dangerous nominee before he was.

[Noel King]

Easily confirmed by the Republican majority Senate. The low key Mr. Vogt now leads the low key Office of Management and Budget, and while he's short on razzle dazzle, he's been very, very, very effective so far. What Russ Wants Coming up on.

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[Simon Rabinovich]

You'Re listening to Today Explains. This is it Today. Explain or try Explains?

[Sean Ramstorm]

Explain.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Duh. Explain. Duh. My name is Simon Rabinovich and I'm the US Economics Editor with the Economist.

[Noel King]

So there are a lot of outsized personalities in Donald Trump's second administration. Starting with Donald Trump. We also have Elon Musk, rfk, Tulsi Gabbard. Just a lot of character. Why do you think Russell Vote is worth understanding?

[Simon Rabinovich]

Well, Russ Vote, he's not outsized in terms of his personality, but I think he is outsized in terms of his influence. He was there in the first Trump administration. He's a returnee, obviously, in the second. And he really is the architect of a lot of the chaos and disruption that we've seen in the last few weeks. It's his idea to, you know, dramatically shrink the civil service, to bend it to President Trump's will to reshape the way that the presidency operates, to make it that much more powerful. So, you know, in many respects, he really is sort of the power behind the throne.

[Noel King]

Okay, so when we say Elon Musk is the power behind the throne, he's the one dismantling the civil service. That's not exactly right.

[Simon Rabinovich]

It's not exactly right. Elon Musk obviously has a great deal of influence, a great deal of power. But I think you can almost view Elon Musk and Doge, the so called Department of Government Efficiency, as Russ votes shock troops. They, you know, they, they both agree that they want to reduce the size of the federal government to cut federal spending. You know, Musk is, is kind of hyperactive and moving every which way, every direction, but ultimately kind of the general, the person who's, who's really this is Russ Vote. And he's, he's the general. He's also the scholar. Because the, what they're doing will be challenged in courts, it will be challenged in Congress. But to the extent that there is a legal justification, this is something that Russ Vote is working on and has been working on for years leading up to the moment that we now face today.

[Advertiser]

What's his lore?

[Noel King]

Where's he come from?

[Simon Rabinovich]

So Russvo has something of a blue collar background. You could say he had a big family. Youngest of seven children.

[Russell Vought]

Growing up as the son of an electrician and a schoolteacher, I saw firsthand the sacrifices my parents made to balance their budget and save for the future. They are a reminder of the burden government spending can place on everyday Americans.

[Simon Rabinovich]

He himself has talked about having a very strong Christian upbringing. He went to college at an evangelical Christian school. All this matters because part of the way that he views his role in government is not just trying to change the way the presidency operates, but also trying to infuse Christian nationalism, his kind of sel defined ideology.

[Russell Vought]

Nationalism is not just patriotic love for one's country, but a commitment to prioritize the needs and interests of one's own country over others. Not unlike how a parent prioritizes the family or their family over others, or a pastor who prioritizes their church over others.

[Simon Rabinovich]

You know, he spent many, many years as a staffer for Republicans in Washington D.C. and so kind of worked his. His way up the totem pole, if you will. And then he a key player in Trump 1.0, and he's one of the few returnees in Trump 2.0. And I think also what's notable is that not only has he returned to the administration, he's back in the very role that he was in at the end of Trump's first term. He's the director of the Office of Management and Budget. It's one of these agencies that not many people have heard of, but it actually wields a great degree of power and even more power in Russ Voat's hands.

[Noel King]

When Russ Vought says his politics are Christian nationalists, what does that mean?

[Simon Rabinovich]

Well, the way that he describes it is that he wants to basically bring Christianity into all aspects of society, especially government.

[Russell Vought]

So we talk about being a nation that's for God. That's a consensus that we want to renew in this country that we have religious liberty. But it cannot come from this notion that a country isn't understanding the reality that it has to obey God and there is only one true God, and that is Jesus Christ, our Lord.

[Simon Rabinovich]

And I think it's important because it doesn't just give him sort of a guidepost in terms of what he's doing. His views on abortion, which he wants to have a total ban on, it also kind of brings a certain righteousness of conviction to the way that he approaches his work, a belief that in some cases, the ends justify the means. It's one of the reasons why in Trump's first administration, no matter what President Trump did, Russ Vote stood beside him. He thought that he was a key ally for kind of propelling his vision. And you can just listen to the, to the way that he talks to. You can read the way that he writes, and it's sort of inflected with these righteous tones. He talks about kind of quote, unquote, the storm clouds being upon us and.

[Russell Vought]

We'Ve got to take measure and be ready to put ourselves in uncomfortable, difficult spots and, and, and trust that duty.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Is ours, results are God' So it's a really, really important motivational force for him.

[Noel King]

I've wondered about his speech. He's also quite mean. He can be quite mean. He talked about wanting to traumatize civil servants, make them realize that nobody liked them.

[Russell Vought]

We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning. We want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. We want their funding to be shut down. So that the EPA can't do all of the rules against our energy industry because they have no bandwidth financially to do. So we want to put them in trauma.

[Noel King]

Some of this language, I mean, if, if we were five years old, we would say, that's not very nice. Now that we're older, we would say, you know, don't talk about traumatizing people.

[Russell Vought]

It's.

[Noel King]

It's unnecessary.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Yeah, and it's a really weird contrast because if you meet him, you know, I've had a long conversation with him and he has this very kind of sc. Scholarly demeanor. He's, you know, always very buttoned up and, and, you know, very nicely trimmed beard. He. And he's soft spoken. But then when you actually listen to what he's saying, it's really quite radical. And I think, I think it's something that he, you know, this is really just a reflection of the strength of his convictions. This is stuff that he truly, deeply believes in. And more than that, I think that the manner in which he speaks is something that helps to inspire, you know, people who work with. He does have kind of a devoted group of small allies who kind of share his vision. He's not transactional, you might say. He's not corruptible. This is just stuff that he really wants to do.

[Noel King]

Donald Trump famously, throughout his life, has engaged in a lot of behavior that is not particularly Christian. How did these two men get together? How does he end up with Donald Trump in the first administration?

[Simon Rabinovich]

Well, so Russvo has an interesting transition over time from, you know, when he was a young Republican staffer, he was very much focused on kind of bread and butter fiscal conservatism. But then over the years, he got into more of a, you know, a MAGA style way of looking at government and ideology. And he was somebody who got involved in the Trump transition team. As you'll remember, there wasn't an incredibly deep bench of people back in 2017. And so he was appointed to the OMB. He was a deputy director. Eventually, in the final year, he became director of omb. And I think the thing for Vogt is that he sees Trump as a vehicle for pushing forward his ideas. So he talks about the fact that, for example, abortion, this is something that he's quite passionate about. But yet all of these anti abortion politicians in the Republican Party who failed to do anything. But it was Trump who ultimately was the one who, you know, through his Supreme Court appointments, was able to kill Roe versus Wade.

[Russell Vought]

He had the most pro life record ever. I've never seen him Take to stand in the way of a pro life initiative that actually was real.

[Simon Rabinovich]

And so Vogt, I think, sees Trump as just a critical ally, as somebody who's, you know, even if he doesn't agree with him on a day to day basis or on many issues, the grand vision is something where he sees alignment for.

[Noel King]

For four years, the Trump vehicle had more or less stalled. The president lost the 2020 election and was cast out into Florida. What was Russ Vote doing then?

[Simon Rabinovich]

So the first thing to say is that at the very end of Trump 1.0, I think the Trump team began to realize this Russ Vote guy has some ideas that are actually very, very powerful and might be electorally useful. So in his last year when he was running the Office of Management and Budget, he was the one who wrote a memo saying that the federal government should stop all training and quote, unquote, critical race theory. That obviously became a very powerful trope for Trump and his more recent election campaign. And he was also the one who was the architect of Schedule F, the idea that you could basically remove all career protections for civil servants. So the Trump team already had the sense that Vote was powerful. He leaves the administration, Trump is out of office. Vote forms this organization, center for Renewing America, and basically begins to create the legal blueprint for a lot of the actions that we've seen in the last couple of weeks. So ideas for ways to give the President much more power over spending, which is known as impoundment power, basically the idea that Congress can approve spending, but the President has the ability not to actually execute that spending.

[Russell Vought]

The president ran on the notion that the Impoundment Control act is unconstitutional. I agree with that.

[Simon Rabinovich]

And then also, you know, thinking about ways to get Schedule F back into power, thinking about ways to shrink the civil service. So basically beginning to create this blueprint for what Trump would do in his current administration. And one way as well, in which Vote was very much involved in thinking through Trump 2.0 was that he was one of the driving forces behind Project 2025.

[Noel King]

Donald Trump had nothing to do with Project 2025. He thought it was ridiculous and abysmal.

[Russell Vought]

They are extreme. I mean, they're seriously ext.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Exactly. Exactly. Trump. Trump denied on the campaign trail that he, that Project 2025 had anything to do with, with his administration, his future administration.

[Russell Vought]

I don't know anything about it. I don't want to know anything about it.

[Simon Rabinovich]

But of course, as we've seen in power, he's appointed many of the people who were involved in, in drafting project 2025 and you know, first and foremost is is R.

[Noel King]

Coming up, what is Project 2025? JK JK JK. You remember what it is. But now it's not just an idea. It is government policy. Simon returns after the break to identify all the places where we see the ideas made real.

[Sean Ramstorm]

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[Simon Rabinovich]

Hello podcast listeners.

[Miles Bryan]

I'm Sean Ramstorm here from the Today Explained show and I've got some news.

[Simon Rabinovich]

News.

[Miles Bryan]

We're taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin, Texas for the south by Southwest Festival March 8th through 10th. We'll be doing special live episodes of hit shows, including our show Today Explained. Where should we begin With Esther Perel? Pivot A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, Not Just Football with Cam Hayward and more presented by smartsheet. The Vox Media podcast stage at south by Southwest is open to all south by Southwest badge holders. I'll be the guy in a Mr. T costume. We hope to see you at the Austin Convention center soon. You can visit voxmedia.comsxsw to learn more. That's Voxmedia.comsxsw.

[Noel King]

Today explained is back with Simon Rabinovich. Simon, you write that we are seeing Project 2025 become US policy. Where are we seeing it?

[Simon Rabinovich]

Well, I think first and foremost, you know, what Russ Voate is doing with the omb, you know, is very much in line with what his blueprint was. He wrote a chapter in Project 2025 about basically how to use the executive office of the President. And he was, you know, totally transparent with his intentions. A president today assumes office to find a sprawling federal bureaucracy that all too often is carrying out its own policy plans and preferences, or worse yet, the policy plans and preferences of a radical supposedly woke faction of the country. So he viewed the idea of strengthening the White House as a way of basically returning power to the American people. And so he, you know, he laid out a blueprint of how he would use the omb, how he'd use the agencies under the omb, including the Office of Personnel Management, to basically, you know, shake up the civil service, to traumatize it, to shrink it, and then to push through, you know, very, very robust ideas. So, you know, we've talked a bit about how he'd like a full on ban on abortion. That's not something he can do, but he can do things in terms of trying to restrict immigration. And he has a view that immigration should be dramatically circumscribed, that ideally, in his view, America should primarily be favoring immigrants from Christian nations or Christian immigrants.

[Russell Vought]

Not only does the Bible support national Sovereignty and borders. But the Bible also has profound principles for thoughtful, limited immigration and emphasizing assimilation.

[Simon Rabinovich]

These are things that, you know, obviously it's not just Vogt himself. People like Stephen Miller are integral to doing this. But, you know, this is what he talked about in Project 2025. I think you can go back and look at Project 2025, that much of what it was doing was, you might say, one, writing out a blueprint, but two, also kind of channeling the ideology of the Trump world and so therefore giving us a fairly clear idea of what President Trump was actually going to do. I haven't read it.

[Russell Vought]

I don't want to read it purposely. I'm not going to read it.

[Noel King]

Now. Much of what the Trump administration is doing is better described as trying to do because it is running into fierce opposition from the courts. We have the elected Vice President, J.D. vance, saying, intimating, I guess might be a better way of putting it, that the president ultimately has more power than the courts.

[Simon Rabinovich]

Judges aren't allowed to control the executives legitimate power.

[Noel King]

What is Russell votes plan to deal with that, to deal with all these lawsuits? I'm assuming he's thought this through.

[Simon Rabinovich]

He's certainly no dummy. So he knows that what he's doing does amount to radical reform, radical change, and therefore that there will be all kinds of opposition. It's not going to be a smooth road. And so, you know, he's anticipated that what they've done, the executive orders trying to revive presidential power of empowerment, all of that will end up in the courts and probably ultimately will end up at the Supreme Court. And so it's not that he's afraid that the courts are going to block his agenda. I think rather he wants the courts to ultimately be the jurisdiction that determines whether or not his interpretation of the law is the correct one. And if he succeeds, when these, these cases work their way up to a Supreme Court argument, if he succeeds, then he will have fundamentally redrawn the bounds of presidential power and brought America back to kind of a late 19th century version of the way that the White House could operate.

[Russell Vought]

The loss of impoundment authority, which 200 years of presidents enjoyed, was the original sin in eliminating the ability from a branch on branch to control spending. And we're going to need to bring that back.

[Noel King]

In a way, all of these lawsuits aren't necessarily a bad thing. All of these lawsuits might be driving toward what Russvold wants.

[Simon Rabinovich]

That's right. Driving towards the kind of the fundamental confrontation to the judgment day, if you will. Now, of course, there still is Concern. And some of what J.D. vance has said has animated those concerns, that will the Trump administration abide by court rulings that don't go in their favor? But I think as far as Russ Vote is concerned, you know, he has the confidence, the optimism that the courts will ultimately side with them. And I think legal scholars who've looked at impoundment power, for example, you know, it's. It's not clear exactly how the courts will rule. There's many people who think that what they're trying to do is unconstitutional, is illegal, but it's not a slam dunk. And so I think Russ Vote is spoiling for a fight.

[Noel King]

There are two other men in a driver's seat in this administration. One of them is Vice President J.D. vance, who seems very interested in using the power of the federal government to push for conservative ends. Things like making policy that would support families. JD Vance going head to head with the courts right now. And then you have Elon Musk, who is the unelected vice president, and he just simply seems to want to tear the government up. Just shrink it, shrink it, shrink it. So these two guys both have a lot of power. They seem interested in handling it in different ways. Where does Russ Vogt fall in that spectrum? How does he navigate what seems to me like a tension?

[Simon Rabinovich]

Yeah, and I think you're right that there are tensions. And I think we'll kind of see those tensions come to the surface more and more as time moves on. I think for the time being, the way I would see it is that Russ Vote sort of, it's not that he's necessarily anywhere specifically on that spectrum, but he shares bits and pieces with all of them. So, you know, for example, specifically, if you look at J.D. vance and how he's been very suspicious of Big Tech. I mean, Russ Vogt also is suspicious of Big Tech. His, his specific concern is that Big Tech has been too woke and has been sort of forcing this woke agenda on the American people. So to the extent that J.D. vance wants to cut down Silicon Valley, this is something that Russ Votes certainly buys into as well. And then like Elon Musk, you know, he also really wants to shrink government as, as we discussed. So I think to the extent that they are doing things that align with Russ Votes ideas, you know, he's very much happy to just kind of go along with both of them and whatever the tension is, he thinks the bigger vision is, you know, a much stronger White House. President Trump being relatively unencumbered. And he sees that both Vice President Vance and Elon Musk are pushing in that same direction. So I guess, I suppose one way that you might see it is that it's not that Vogt sees himself specifically as a handmaiden of whatever happens to be the Trumpian vision of government, but rather he sees Trump and Trump's allies as. As basically being battering rams to destroy the status quo in government, especially the status quo in the bureaucracy, and to push through, hopefully, many of his beliefs.

[Noel King]

He really wants the president to have more power. He really wants much in the government to bend to the executive, and he wants to make changes that would do that. And he appears to be making changes that would do that. But what happens when the next time a Democrat is elected president, like, has he thought through the implications of what he wants to do here?

[Simon Rabinovich]

No doubt the implication would be that you'd begin to have this whip sawing between, you know, potentially an extreme Republican agenda followed by something that would be more, much more appealing to it towards Democratic voters. Having said that, I think that, you know, he believes that his role is not just to do something that's a corrective for the last four years, but to do something that's a corrective for the last century. So I think he, you know, he's aware that a Democrat could begin to unwind some of his agenda, but he wants to demolish the civil service that's been built up, that's been strengthened and expanded, you know, going back to the time of Teddy Roosevelt, well before even fdr. So if he's able to dramatically shrink the government, to dramatically assert the president's power to not spend all the money that's been appropriated, I think his belief would be that even if you have a Democratic president, they would not be able to just completely reverse everything that he's done. So, I mean, yes, that's a risk to his agenda, but still, I think this is something that he thinks is required.

[Noel King]

Simon Rabinovich is the US Economics editor for Leading magazine. The Economist Miles Bryan produced today's show, and Aminah El Saadi edited Andrea Christen's Daughter Engineered. Laura Bullard is our fact checker. And I'm Noel King. It's Today Explained.