Podcast Summary: Today, Explained Episode: Our Complicated Relationship with the Flag
Release Date: July 6, 2025
Host: Jonathan Hill
Guests: Al, Ted Johnson, Lisa Ackermolder
Network: Vox Media Podcast Network

Introduction: Exploring the Flag's Multifaceted Symbolism

The episode delves into the intricate and often conflicting emotions surrounding the American flag, particularly within the Black American community. Through a blend of historical context and contemporary analysis, the hosts and guests examine how the flag serves as both a symbol of pride and a reminder of systemic injustice.

Contemporary Reflections: Flag Imagery in Modern Music

Key Discussion: Al initiates the conversation by highlighting recent performances by influential Black artists like Kendrick Lamar and Beyoncé, who incorporate the American flag and its colors into their work. This usage signals a broader trend among Black musicians to reclaim and reinterpret national symbols.

Notable Quotes:

• Jonathan Hill ([01:11]): "Beyoncé famously doesn't do many interviews, but she's intentional about every choice she makes, so a big concert on the fourth in the nation's capital isn't a coincidence."
• Ted Johnson ([02:11]): "Can it live alongside the bad? Those are questions that I think we're all consciously asking a lot more, especially having access to everybody's thoughts and opinions online."

Artists Reclaiming National Symbols

Key Figures:

• Beyoncé: Her album Cowboy Carter features her atop a white horse waving the American flag, presenting a pristine image of patriotism without altering the flag’s design.
• Sexyy Red: Through her mixtape Make America Sexy Again and related merchandise, she juxtaposes traditional MAGA aesthetics with her own artistic identity, emphasizing empowerment and freedom.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Johnson ([04:15]): "Sexy's music is very fun, very casual, very delightfully ratchet. We're just here to have a good time with Sexyy Red."
• Ted Johnson ([05:01]): "Her use of the American flag, generally, I do think it's just her trying to give Black Americans a window to understand that it is okay for them to have pride and love for this country."

Historical Context: Black Americans and Military Service

Key Discussion: Al provides a comprehensive overview of the historical relationship between Black Americans and the American flag, emphasizing the paradox of fighting for a nation that has systematically oppressed them. From Jehu Grant during the Revolutionary War to service members in modern conflicts, the narrative underscores the enduring struggle for equality and recognition.

Notable Quotes:

• Al ([20:44]): "The relationship of Black service members to the flag represents a set of principles that many would be willing to die for and also a way of life that intentionally excluded Black folks for no other reason than race and status of their servitude."
• Al ([22:28]): "The flag represents a set of principles that many would be willing to die for and also a way of life that intentionally excluded Black folks for no other reason than race and status of their servitude."

The Betsy Ross Narrative: Symbolism and Controversy

Guest Insight: Lisa Ackermolder, Director of the Betsy Ross House, explores the origins of the American flag and the contested legacy of Betsy Ross. She discusses how historical narratives are appropriated by various groups to serve contemporary agendas, highlighting both progressive and far-right usages of Revolutionary War iconography.

Notable Quotes:

• Lisa Ackermolder ([13:02]): "She certainly had the skills and the supplies needed to make the flag because they weren't much different from the work that she had done as an upholsterer."
• Lisa Ackermolder ([15:14]): "There are people who have adopted not just early flags, but many of the symbols and quotes and people of the American Revolution to represent their agenda or their beliefs."

Modern Perspectives: Pride, Protest, and Reclamation

Key Discussion: The conversation shifts to how contemporary Black Americans perceive and interact with the flag. While some view it as a symbol of national pride and the progress made, others see it as a reminder of historical and ongoing injustices. The discussion emphasizes the generational shifts in these perceptions and the ongoing efforts to redefine Americanness.

Notable Quotes:

• Al ([08:35]): "This is our country. We also help build it. So we should also be able to access those symbols and use them for whatever we want to say in our own ways."
• Al ([26:47]): "There is no uncritical pride in the flag for me. But it is also a flag that Black folks have fought under, have bled, died, and sacrificed for the principles."
• Ted Johnson ([28:52]): "The reclamation of that flag by Beyoncé and others is a sort of signal that, yes, we built it, yes, we've progressed here, and no, we're not leaving. This is home."

Emotional Connections and Diverse Reactions

Key Discussion: Lisa Ackermolder shares insights into how visitors to the Betsy Ross House emotionally engage with the flag. Reactions range from profound pride and connection to feelings of exclusion and oppression, demonstrating the flag’s power as a national symbol that evokes strong, varied emotions.

Notable Quotes:

• Lisa Ackermolder ([16:04]): "Some people have a very emotional reaction when they come here. They almost like consider their trip to the Betsy Ross house like a pilgrimage because the American flag is so meaningful to them."

Conclusion: Embracing Complexity

The episode concludes by acknowledging the flag's dual role as a unifying symbol and a representation of America's flawed history. The guests advocate for a nuanced understanding that recognizes both the achievements and the shortcomings associated with the flag, particularly from the perspective of Black Americans.

Notable Quotes:

• Al ([26:47]): "It can be both things. Both something to be proud of and ashamed of. And so I think if you take it that way, allow it to be complicated and complex, it becomes something beautiful and worth honoring."
• Ted Johnson ([28:52]): "For me, that is all the things that patriotism represents, not the more narrow, exclusive version that tends to get more daylight."

Production Credits

• Produced by: Victoria Chamberlain
• Edited by: Miranda Kennedy
• Fact-Checking: Melissa Hirsch
• Engineering: Andrea Christensdotter
• Special Thanks: Martha Jones, Hannah Pfeiffer, Noel King

Note: This summary omits advertisement segments and focuses solely on the substantive discussions and insights shared by the participants.