Noel King (2:42)

No way this is true.

Chris Gayomali (2:43)

Which was making sure that you get 30 or so grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking. And I was constantly getting all these messages that, like, you're not getting enough protein in your diet. And so that sort of triggered my fall down this trapdoo or towards the protein event horizon.

Noel King (3:00)

People think it's crazy that I've eaten 200 grams of protein for almost 20 straight years every single day. The biggest lie that you're telling yourself is that you can't hit your protein goals. Stop over complicating it. I blend chicken twice a day. What? What?

Chris Gayomali (3:15)

To be an open pro bodybuilder? Chug that baby down. Somebody get this mess of protein.

Noel King (3:23)

I myself do listen to Huberman, and I have gotten the message, too. I think a lot more about protein than I ever thought I would think about protein.

Chris Gayomali (3:33)

Same here.

Noel King (3:34)

Me of 36 months ago would not recognize this person. Tell me where protein mania begins. Is this a recent phenomenon?

Chris Gayomali (3:42)

So it actually really starts with whey protein. And for that, you have to go back to right after World War II. The Japanese have accepted our terms fully. That is the word we have just.

Noel King (3:53)

Received from the White House in Washington. And I didn't expect to hear a celebration here in our newsroom in New York, but you can hear one going on behind me.

Chris Gayomali (4:01)

A lot of farming became really industrialized, and around that time, we really saw dairy production really start to ratchet up here in the United States.

Noel King (4:11)

Milk is one of our most wholesome foods. Now, where are the milk cows and the dairy farms of the United States? Located in an area commonly called the Dairy Belt.

Chris Gayomali (4:22)

There was just, like, so much cheese that they were making, especially in Vermont and Wisconsin.

Noel King (4:28)

Cheese, a more concentrated food, is more valuable per pound than milk.

Chris Gayomali (4:33)

When you make cheese, its liquid byproduct is whey, which has historically been treated as a refuse that was like, either dumped in the rivers or fed to pigs and cattle. Once the whey is discarded, at least it kind of has nowhere to go. And there was one cheese plant in 1942 that used to dump all its whey product into an old drinking well. The substance produced so much gas that at one point, the well's cover blew off. Things really started to change in the 1970s when a couple of things started happening in tandem. The big one was there was kind of this swell of environmental legislation that came out that sort of just made dumping whey not the Move. All these manufacturers had to find a use for this stuff that was essentially garbage. And meanwhile, there were technological breakthroughs in fields like microfiltration, which made it easier to transform the whey into a powder that you could actually mix with water and drink down. So that's kind of how we got to this point where you're able to drink whey protein as we know it today. And then the other thing that happened was in 1977, there was this big documentary that came out called Pumping Iron. And now we come to the heavyweights. Over 200 pounds, starring Arnold Schwarzenegger. The greatest feeling you can get in the gym, or the most satisfying feeling you can get in the gym is the pump. It was kind of a mind blowing thing at the time. Like this guy came out of nowhere and had biceps on top of his biceps. Blood is rushing into your muscles and that's what we call the pump. Your muscles get a really tight feeling like your skin is going to explode any minute. It kind of kicked off a real bodybuilding boom. And from there, people just really wanted protein and to look like the Terminator. I'll be back. Whey protein, like that kind of set the model for a lot of different plant proteins. It was basically the same model where it was like, you know, we have all this excess trash and mush, like especially from the soybean oil industry. And they were like, hey, we have all this soy mush left over from, you know, extracting oil. What should we do with it? And then they figured out that you can really transform this stuff into soluble powders. And it's actually pretty nutrient dense too. But what's really funny about it is it's like this whole protein boom is like people just figured out that you can take existing garbage essentially and sell it to people. And so that's how we got to where we are today. But more recently, you know, they're sort of synthesizing all sorts of plants. There's soy, there's pea, there's algae, there's hemp, there's rice. Yeah. All sorts of stuff that they are, they're sort of mushing up and extracting protein from and turning it into powders that they can jam into all sorts of wacky snacks, which I've tasted a lot of during this journey.

Noel King (7:26)

You also tasted a protein soda. Tell me about that.

Chris Gayomali (7:30)

Oh, my gosh. So when I came across this, the existence of this protein soda called Feisty, I was like, protein soda, that's so wild. But then I talked to the founder.

Noel King (7:44)

Yeah, hi, my name's V. I'm the.

Chris Gayomali (7:46)

Founder of Feisty, and she's a former designer at Louis Vuitton based in London. And she actually had her own interesting journey with protein. She had like a gnarly knee injury not too long ago, and her. Her PT was basically like, you should get into lifting. And I gave it a go. I've never been sporty my whole life.

Noel King (8:06)

I never had this feeling of like.

Chris Gayomali (8:07)

An endorphins hit before. And I was like, wow, this is so incredible. And just like fell in love with, like, all things fitness and from the lifting. She kind of fell in love with the sport and then started researching how to create her own drink that wasn't as heavy, not like a shake that you would have to guzzle down. And so she landed on this idea for a fizzy protein soda. I heard hydrolyzed pea protein, which is like a pea protein which dissolves in water as clear. And I was like, why does no one put this in a soda? This is cool.

Noel King (8:40)

You did talk to some plant protein scientists. What does that job entail?

Chris Gayomali (8:46)

There's a lot of research being done right now in like genetically modifying certain plants, say pea or, you know, even potatoes. So protein is really tricky. And I'm by no means an expert in, like, how all that stuff sort of holds together. My Name's David Julian McClemmonson. I'm a distinguished professor in the department of Food science at the University of Massachusetts, and I do a lot of work on protein fortification of plant based foods.

Noel King (9:13)

First of all, ridiculous that that exists. I love it.

Chris Gayomali (9:16)

So we're trying to make plant based alternatives. The most common way is you just basically take the plant, you grind it up into a powder, then you put it in water, and then you make it very alkaline and that causes the proteins to dissolve and then you collect them and then you change the ph again and they come out of solution and you get this big curd that you can take and dry and use as a protein isolate. So we've made sort of plant based scallops. I admittedly, like, get a little bit squeamish around fake meats like that plant based chicken and plant based eggs that are fortified with proteins and other healthy ingredients. So things like potatoes or peas or soybeans or nettles. There's no way I should be eating this burger that is designed to taste like a cow but isn't a cow. I'm kind like, just be yourself burger.

Noel King (10:08)

So there's two parallel tracks here. And one is we are able to Just make more kinds of proteins and put them into more types of foods.

Chris Gayomali (10:16)

Exactly.

Noel King (10:16)

And then sell them to people. And the other is people want them. Right. People are also buying the stuff. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Or is this just a nice confluence of what the customer wants the industry is prepared now to provide?

Chris Gayomali (10:31)

In my reporting, I sort of found that, you know, of all the macronutrients, the big three are fat, carbohydrates, and prote. Protein's kind of the only one that's never really been demonized by marketers and, like pop scientists and Atkins and like all that stuff. It's like you think of carbohydrates. It was like that was verboten at one point.

Noel King (10:49)

The great diet debate, low carb or low fat? You probably have had some friends or family members or yourself trying the no carb or low carb diets.

Chris Gayomali (10:58)

Fat definitely a verboten at one point. The analogy I like to use is protein's kind of like the Dolly Parton of macronutrients. Like, we can all agree that she's pretty great. Regardless of your identity or, like, political affiliation, my hopes for the new year.

Noel King (11:12)

Is a little more kindness, a little more love. So speaking of Dolly and also speaking of Arnold Schwarzenegger. I love Arnold, but as like a woman, I don't aspire to look like Arnold, but the algorithm has found me anyway. Like, I go on Instagram and the ladies are serving me protein. Most women are not eating enough protein.

Chris Gayomali (11:37)

Oh, my God.

Noel King (11:38)

You're looking for a high protein breakfast option that takes less than 10 minutes to make, and it's 65 grams of protein.

Chris Gayomali (11:42)

Protein.

Noel King (11:43)

Yeah, buddy, I know that's what you wanted. And I'm a giver. I'm a lover. How did we go from this is kind of male dominated, muscles on muscles on muscles to a lot of female health influencers are evangelizing it also. When does that turn happen?

Chris Gayomali (11:59)

It has to do with the sort of normalizing of fitness culture, which you have also fallen into in the past couple of months.

Noel King (12:05)

I work out all the time. I can bench you.

Chris Gayomali (12:08)

And it's addicting, right? And I think part of it is like, you know, post pandemic, we were just so concerned about our mortality and watching death sort of surround us in a real way that a lot of people decided to get healthy kind of at the same time. But also, you know, your point about influencers is really interesting. One of the big ones is Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She's a part of the sort of Huberman cinematic Universe.

Noel King (12:31)

There is not one macronutrient more important to an aging individual than protein.

Chris Gayomali (12:39)

Really compelling figure in her mid-50s, I think, and she looks like she could deadlift like a Miata if she needed to. But she's, she's argued that women, especially as they enter menopause, need to be lifting weights and eating way more protein to stay healthy.

Noel King (12:53)

Protein for Dummies. Source meat, which include pork, beef, lamb.

Chris Gayomali (12:58)

She's so turbo, but I think she's onto something and I think that's really like hitting a note with a lot of people across Australia.

Noel King (13:06)

The other big cultural moment that we're in is the moment of Ozempic and Mounjaro and other GLP1s. Those also affect how much protein we want or need.

Chris Gayomali (13:19)

You know, retailers like Walmart especially are like sort of already stocking their shelves with foods that are a little bit more nutrient dense and high in protein.

Noel King (13:28)

Nestle just announced a new frozen food brand that it says is intended to be a companion for GLP1 weight loss medication. Users and consumers focused on weight maintenance management.

Chris Gayomali (13:37)

The makers of KitKat are coming out with some food items that you'll be able to find on your local grocery shelves soon. And these foods will be geared towards you and me, users of GLP1 medications. Let's take a look at what they are. Mostly because these kind of drugs are so popular right now and they really do limit the amount of food you can eat. So if you can't eat as much food, the thinking goes that you need stuff that's just packed with more nutrients in order to feel okay and good and healthy. So that's, it's kind of really shaping the industry in a very real way right now.

Noel King (14:06)

What I eat in a day on Ms. Ozempi, I always start my day.

Chris Gayomali (14:08)

With some Greek yogurt.

Noel King (14:10)

Chobani is my favorite. And then today is the day that we take our Ozempic shots. So you already know what that means. We need to get in a good high protein meal before doing so. Let's make a protein coffee while I.

Chris Gayomali (14:19)

Talk about the importance of protein while.

Noel King (14:20)

On a GLP1 medication.

Chris Gayomali (14:22)

I was like shopping for breakfast cereals for my 3 year old. Just like looking around and I noticed this svelte new box of Wheaties protein which like advertised 20 something grams of protein on the COVID There was no old Wheaties like this. It had been replaced seemingly overnight by this like very, you know, buff new insurgent, I guess. And so I was kind of like, I was like, huh? And so in the course of this, I hit up General Mills, which, you know, owns this big portfolio of food products and Wheaties especially, then asked if I could come out and check out what they're doing over there. And weirdly enough, they said yes.

Noel King (15:05)

Coming up, Chris goes behind the veil at General Mills. Megan Rapinoe here. This week on A Touch More, the one and only Flaje Johnson joins us to talk about leveling up for the wnba, managing nil money and how she's.

Chris Gayomali (15:26)

Nurturing her music career.

Noel King (15:27)

We're also taking a closer look at why participation in girls sports is is declining. Surprising, we know. And we're giving some love to Valentine's Day and what it's like dating a pro athlete and who's the best athlete couple of all time. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. Hi everyone. This week on on with Karis Fisher, I'm joined by the iconic actor and activist Jane Fonda. You've heard of her. Jane and I talked about her roots as an activist dating back to the 19 when she was protesting the Vietnam War, to her ongoing fight for climate, free speech and ultimately our democracy. Here's a taste of what she had to say.

Chris Gayomali (16:14)

Hope is very different than optimism. You know, optimism is everything's going to be fine and you don't do anything about it. Hope is a muscle.

Noel King (16:26)

Hope is when you fight, hope can be rage filled.

Chris Gayomali (16:31)

Breaking down the door with a battering ram.

Noel King (16:34)

This is a wonderful conversation. I am privileged to be able to talk to people like this.

Chris Gayomali (16:38)

Jane Fonda is the bomb.

Noel King (16:40)

She just is. She's always been that way. She remains that way. She will go down in history as that. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts and search for us too on YouTube and be sure to follow on with Kara Swisher.

Chris Gayomali (16:51)

For more.

Noel King (16:53)

This week on net worth and Chill, we're joined by Victoria Garrick Brown, former Division 1 athlete turned body positivity advocate and entrepreneur who's dismantling the lives as we've been sold about our worth. From battling eating disorders as a student athlete to building a platform that's reached millions. Victoria's journey as a masterclass in turning personal pain into purpose and profit. She opens up about the real financial cost of chasing beauty standards, why the skinny girl industrial complex is designed to keep us broke and insecure and how she's built a business around authentic self worth without selling out her values. We dive deep into the economics of body image, the influencer money game and what it actually costs to love yourself in a world that profits from your insecurities. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF. Today Explained is back with me, Noelle from work and Chris Giomali. Now, as you've skittered around the aisles of your local grocery store, you have likely wondered at some point, how are they getting the protein into all this stuff? Chris had the same thought, and then he scored an invitation.

Chris Gayomali (17:59)

So last November, I landed in Minneapolis and took an Uber out to General Mills headquarters. And it's this beautiful, picturesque campus just outside of Minneapolis. They have like this sculpture garden outside. It's just this beautiful campus with duck ponds and there was like, foliage everywhere. And then I'm inside this building where they make all these snack products. General Mills, they began looking into, you know, jamming protein into a lot of their products. Maybe a little over 10 years ago, they had this Nature Valley bar that they had, like, jammed a little bit more protein in. And then once they started selling it, they realized they could make a lot of money off of this stuff. I think it did, like $100 million in its first year or something like that. So they were like, okay, maybe there's other products we can put protein into that would make us a ton of money. And so Wheaties being, you know, their flagship sort of cereal product that like, you know, has Tiger woods and Michael Jordan and Serena Williams and all those people on the COVID better eat your Wheaties. I better eat my Wheaties. They realized Wheaties would be a good test for this stuff. And so they went out to their roster of, like, fitness enthusiasts. And the information they were hearing back was, you know, a Wheaties protein product would ideally have at least 15 grams of protein per serving, which is kind of a lot. You know, the challenge for them was preserving the fidelity of the flake, because Wheaties eaters are surprisingly hardcore about what Wheaties should taste like and how hard it should be, like, how crunchy it should be. So it was actually wheat germ and soy protein isolate that they had to combine and make it somehow taste like the old version of Wheaties. And they went through 40 different iterations over it over a multi year R and D period. And it was, it was kind of funny because they rolled out all these different versions over the years in little glass containers, kind of like little, I don't know, like Jurassic park embryos or something. And I asked them to take a picture of it, and then they were just like, oh, no, we can't do that. Like, it was like, Illuminati levels of secrecy for all these cereal shit.

Noel King (20:04)

Speaking of Jurassic Park, I was trying to picture how do you get protein into food? Cause it's not just Wheaties, it's also Cheerios. It's also, like you said, it's granola bars. It's everything. And all I can imagine is a person with like a big needle. Somehow the needle has liquid protein. They're just like plunging the needle into a Wheaty flake, I'm guessing. No, but how does it work? Like, how do they get the protein in there?

Chris Gayomali (20:29)

Yeah, it isn't too far off from Jurassic park, as I understand it. You're altering the DNA of whatever the food is on a like a very granular level. You know, it's like they'll take the wheat germ that they were using for Wheaties, for example, put in some protein, and then they have like all these calculations about like how much liquid to use. And they're just calibrating that until they get something that sort of resembles the traditional product but is maybe just a little bit off. And then on top of that, they'll try to mask it with, you know, nut clusters and all this other stuff to sort of like take your eye off the ball a little bit, that this isn't the old one you're eating, but it's a little bit different. But it can't be too different. And I think that's kind of the trick towards all these new protein food products, honestly.

Noel King (21:11)

You know, you're pointing at something here. Listeners will know I am obsessed with ultra processed foods and what they may be doing to us. I drank a protein shake the other day and I was like, oh my God, none of this is stuff that I could find in my own kitchen. And so a thing I wonder is, are we just eating junk food? Is all the high protein stuff, stuff, crap?

Chris Gayomali (21:32)

Yeah. You know where I sort of landed and this flip flops every day. If you ask me the same question tomorrow, I might have a different answer for you. But it's still junk. But it's kind of a lesser evil situation to my mind. A lot of the researchers I talked to, there was this one guy named Alan Aragon who's sort of like been at the forefront of a lot of protein and fitness research over these past couple decades. He made the point that really kind of shocked me that this stuff is actually really useful for people who are maybe a little bit older and they're dealing with age related muscle loss. And it's just so much easier for them to eat A bowl of cereal versus like a huge sirloin steak that a carnivore diet influencer would like make for themselves and eat off a cutting board or something like that. It's maybe not ideal. Maybe we should be getting our protein from whole sources like, you know, fish and like grass fed meat and tofu and stuff like that. But, you know, we don't live in a sort of ideal world. We're always on the move and like, need convenience when we can. So I'll occasionally indulge in like a protein thing that tastes like a pop Tart and feel not too bad about it if I can help it.

Noel King (22:39)

There's a thing that happens, it has certainly happened to me, probably most people where you realize that like you're not getting enough calcium, right, or enough iron, and then suddenly you are slamming iron tablets and spinach and steak and then you read something that's like, oh, you should only actually be getting such and such milligrams every day. We are as a culture really obsessed with protein right now. Has anyone dug into whether we are, are getting too much?

Chris Gayomali (23:07)

So in terms of how much protein a person might need, the RDA works out to basically 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. That's a lot of math. But most people probably aren't getting enough, especially if you work out and, you know, protein is the source of our cellular, like, healing and all that stuff. So, yeah, we're probably all not eating enough. Honestly.

Noel King (23:32)

We've all learned to be suspicious of big food companies, right? There are a lot of problems with the American diet and we're all aware of it. There are a lot of chronic conditions that stem from the American diet. When you think about what the story of protein and its rise and then continued rise tells us about ourselves, what do you think is the story behind the story here?

Chris Gayomali (23:56)

I feel like we're just getting so much smarter about nutrition now. I always think back to my youth when the, you know, the food pyramid at the bottom of it was like your foundation of a healthy diet is like 6 to 11 daily breads or something. That's so many carbs. That's so much bread. It's so weird because some of this stuff gets really rigid really fast. But then research is also moving fast. And so it's kind of weird because you, you have to balance some conspiratorial like thinking with all these like, you know, podcasters and people randos on TikTok who are making like really strong health recommendations not founded in any sort of like real science with sort of what sounds about right. And so it's kind of like a personal calculation is where I've kind of landed on it. You know, if, like, eating a little bit more protein helps you feel good, then by all means do it. I've personally sort of started eating double the amount that I was eating prior to reporting this story. Then I feel pretty good and not too terrible with myself. So that's where I've landed with all of that.

Noel King (25:03)

And your muscles got bigger.

Chris Gayomali (25:05)

Yeah, my muscles are so brolic right now, dude.

Noel King (25:08)

There you go. There you go. That is it. That is why we do it.

Chris Gayomali (25:13)

I know.

Noel King (25:23)

All right. Chris Gayomali. Check him out at heavies on substack. Gabrielle Burbe produced today's show. Aminah Elsadi edited. Matthew, Billy and Andrea, Kristen's daughter engineered. And Laura Bullard checks the facts. The rest of our team includes Hadi Mwadi Estad Herndon, Danielle Hewitt, Miles Bryan, Ariana Esputu, Dustin Desoto, Kelly Wessinger, Sean Ramas Firm. Miranda Kennedy, Abishai Artsy, Jolene Myers, Patrick Boyd, Peter Balanon Rosen, Andrea Lopez Crusado and David Tadashore. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder. I'm Noel King. Today Explained is distributed by wnyc and the show is a part of Vox.

Chris Gayomali (26:38)

New Year New Me. Cute, but how about New Year, new money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're gonna crush start the year off right. Download the Experian app based on FICO.

Noel King (26:59)

Scoring model offers an approval not guaranteed.

Chris Gayomali (27:01)

Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details.

Noel King (27:06)

Experian. It's tax season, and at Lifelock, we.

Chris Gayomali (27:10)

Know you're tired of numbers, but here's.

Noel King (27:12)

A big one you need to hear here. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds.

Chris Gayomali (27:16)

The IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud.

Noel King (27:20)

Now here's another big number.

Chris Gayomali (27:21)

100 million.

Noel King (27:23)

That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control.

Chris Gayomali (27:37)

Terms apply.